Possible new product - Opinions please!

[OSCAR]

I

[PCC]

Since you can use Super knobs on several types of sticks (examples), if you make the shafts just like a Super, it will work on Supers, Competitions, and Tulip joysticks.  Decent idea.  I think the colors should match the Happ pushbuttons (black, red, blue...)

[1UP]

How about some Tron stick-tops!  

[Howard_Casto]

I think it's an interesting idea, but the sf fan in me says it's a bad one.  8-way joysticks are mainly for games 1990 and newer right?  Well with the exception of 4-player beat-em ups.  none of these games used a ball top handle similar to teh wico style.  It is akward for both platformers and street fighters.  Data-east didn't do sf's but still didn't use a traditional ball-top.  What htye used was a mini ball-top that could act as a pivot point but yet still not get in the way for complex moves.  Strider, one of the few non-sf based capcom titles, used a similar stick.  

To my knowledge the only games that used ball-tops after this period were the 4-player games.

Anyway.. my point is... microswitch sticks were almost exclusively the happ style tops.. those that weren't were a mini ball top instead of a full-sized wico for more precise controls.

Ball tops work best for classics, in which case most people would want a leaf stick anyway.  

Now what would be nice would be a dataeast style shaft for a standard 8-way as they only used metal cps, and it's hard to mount an original dataeast stick on a wooden control panel.      

Oh and hi Kelsey

[MrArcade]

Video Connection sells ball top joys...leaf or micro

http://www.videoconnect.com/content/joys.htm

[OSCAR]

I think it's an interesting idea, but the sf fan in me says it's a bad one.  8-way joysticks are mainly for games 1990 and newer right?  Well with the exception of 4-player beat-em ups.  none of these games used a ball top handle similar to teh wico style.  It is akward for both platformers and street fighters.  Data-east didn't do sf's but still didn't use a traditional ball-top.  What htye used was a mini ball-top that could act as a pivot point but yet still not get in the way for complex moves.  Strider, one of the few non-sf based capcom titles, used a similar stick.  

To my knowledge the only games that used ball-tops after this period were the 4-player games.

Anyway.. my point is... microswitch sticks were almost exclusively the happ style tops.. those that weren't were a mini ball top instead of a full-sized wico for more precise controls.

Ball tops work best for classics, in which case most people would want a leaf stick anyway.  

Now what would be nice would be a dataeast style shaft for a standard 8-way as they only used metal cps, and it's hard to mount an original dataeast stick on a wooden control panel.      

Oh and hi Kelsey

It was exactly for some of these reasons that this idea has been shelved for over 6 months.  I was originally going to start on these back in January, but I released the restrictors first, and tucked this idea away for a later time.

Then.... I did see PCC's post regarding using the Super stick with other Happ bases and I started thinking about my idea again.  I also got to thinking that Namco did it with their Class of '81 cab (ball top w/ microswitches I mean), seeing more and more of the Japanese sitdown cabs on eBay as well as being converted to MAME cabs, Ultimarc's J-Stick (which looks really good to me, but I've never used them), and also OzStick uses ball tops... And then it occurred to me that this just may not as bad of an idea as I originally thought.

Anyway, I'm just as receptive to the negative feedback as the positive, because I don't want to eat a bunch of joystick shafts if nobody wants them.



1UP - I think if Arcade Renovations backed out of the Tron handles, then it must have been for a good reason.  I'm not ready to pick up a product someone else dropped, presumably from lack of interest, but I don't know that for sure.  I would've really liked to see them, though.  


Thanks for the input so far guys.  Keep it up!

Oh, and hi Howard.  

[OSCAR]

Video Connection sells ball top joys...leaf or micro

http://www.videoconnect.com/content/joys.htm

Yeah, I know they did, sorry I left them off my previous list.  The last time I called them, they weren't selling the leaf style anymore (even though they were still on the website) because they couldn't get more and they wanted to keep what they had for conversions.  I believe someone even posted here that they got the same response from them some time ago.  Someone also posted about their Wico microswitch stick and didn't have much good to say about it.  Was it ArcadeFX, I don't remember?  My thinking was to offer a ball top for a much more commonly used joystick, that's all.

[1UP]

1UP - I think if Arcade Renovations backed out of the Tron handles, then it must have been for a good reason.  I'm not ready to pick up a product someone else dropped, presumably from lack of interest, but I don't know that for sure.  I would've really liked to see them, though.  

Actually, it was a problem with the guy who was going to mold them.  They apparently had enough interest though...  Damn, I guess I'm gonna have to start watching ebay again for some old ones...  

[Howard_Casto]

Could you get ahold of some hollow shafts?  What is really rare right now are ball-tops with buttons on the top.  I would be willing to pre-order a couple of those if anyone would make them.

[Tiger-Heli]

Hi OSCAR,

Interesting idea.  BTW, www.gamebrick.com (no longer on the web) used to sell replacement super shafts with a wooden ball on the end.  I think they were like $20.00.  Don't know why gamebrick disappeared, but I doubt it was over joystick shafts.

For me, I think I will be happy playing PacMan with the standard Competition handle and your restrictor plates.  It's not arcade authentic, but then again, I don't think it will bother me.  (Then again, I HATE scanlines, b/c I prefer seeing my games the way they SHOULD have been, rather than the way they really were.)  Doesn't mean it's a bad idea, just not something I would be interested in.

What I think might sell better (and again, I think I'm covered, so this is not for my personal use) is your trigger stick hack.  I think it would be possible to buy a bunch of 6-10 dollar two-button (trigger and thumb) PC joysticks, mount them to a shaft that fits a super and sell them for around $25.00.  Then for $35.00, you have a stick that works well for Tron or BattleZone or Zaxxon, etc., compared to $110.00 for the Tron stick from Happ or $190 for the closest thing Happ sells to a Battlezone stick (http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/95006500.htm, not the tulip stick).

[Brax]

I think the ball tops look very cool and very authentic. I would love to have some. Especially with the chrome shaft. The supers look a little too plastic for my tastes.

Buuuuut, my control panel is black with blue buttons. Button colours are an excellent idea.

[Minwah]

Sounds like a very good idea to me

Maybe you could think about also doing a chromed washer to replace the plastic part which covers the hole in the control panel (?).  This would compliment the chrome stick nicely

As said previously, it would be good if the ball tops were available in a few different colors - I like red ones but it might not suit everyone's cabs/taste.

Cheers

[bhille]

Hi OSCAR,

What I think might sell better (and again, I think I'm covered, so this is not for my personal use) is your trigger stick hack.  I think it would be possible to buy a bunch of 6-10 dollar two-button (trigger and thumb) PC joysticks, mount them to a shaft that fits a super and sell them for around $25.00.  Then for $35.00, you have a stick that works well for Tron or BattleZone or Zaxxon, etc., compared to $110.00 for the Tron stick from Happ or $190 for the closest thing Happ sells to a Battlezone stick (http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/95006500.htm, not the tulip stick).

I would like to second this one.  I think having at least a trigger button would be pretty cool.  It would be awesome if these shafts would work on the t-stick as well (I'll have 2 of these and 2 supers in my cab).  Not sure I would go for the ball tops...just not my thing.

Brian

[SirPoonga]

Actaully, the idea might sell if it was a short shaft.  At least for cocktail builders.

[RacerX]

Dang.  I thought the possible new product you were teasing us with was a Star Wars yoke.    

[hyiu]

I would also be interested in ball top on Competition...
(somehow, I like competition more then Super...)

but I need long shaft cos I'm using 3/4 in plywood + artwork + lexan on control panel.... (but I'm planning to route a little bit on the wood....)

I already got the J-stick from Ultimarc... they're good....
but I still like the competition more...
(so... I'll be mounting competition on my cab.. not j-sticks...)

if you can make just the shaft replacements and its long enough, then I'll most likely order 2 also !!...

 

[Tiger-Heli]

Dang.  I thought the possible new product you were teasing us with was a Star Wars yoke.    

I was hoping that too !!!    

[rampy]

Dang.  I thought the possible new product you were teasing us with was a Star Wars yoke.    

I was hoping that too !!!    

Just to add to the "me too" train... I was hoping it was a SW style yoke product as well...

*shrug* (not to discourage you from the ball top super replacement shafts... just would be more excited about a SW yolk) =)

rampy

[Lilwolf]

I would be interested in a shaft that will fit into an analog joystick.  Why?  for adding console games to my cabinet for my daughter.

The wico's were the 4way... and yes it was Ed (ArcadeFX) that complained.  But he had the microswitch and I have the leaf switch (I think they are ok -> good.... would have liked more of a restrictor types on the diagonals...

As for the SW joystick.  Look at the twistygrip.  They are pretty cool I hear!  

I wish someone would build/sell full made twistygrips myself.  When you look at what it takes to make it, it would seem like building 2 or more wouldn't cost that much more then building one.

[brandon]

I like the idea of the hollow shafts.  What about a hollow shaft that was threaded inside or a regular shaft that was drilled and tapped so that differnt handles could be screwed on?  that might be a little much..just an idea....

[Grasshopper]

I think That's a really cool idea! Please don't be put off by the other posts. I'm prepared to pre-order at least two of them.

At the moment there is really no substitute for the increasingly hard to find Wicos.

I know the japanese sticks look good but there are a number of problems with them:

* Firstly and most importantly they just don't feel traditional like the Wicos, the throw is too long and the springs are too light.

* The ball tops are too small. I know that some of the older games use balls with the same diameter however I personally prefer the bigger ones on the Wicos.

* Most of them have short shafts which makes them difficult to mount in wood. I see the ones on Ultimarc's site have longer shafts however this presumably makes the throw even longer.

Personally I wouldn't fit a ball top to a super joystick as you'll end up with something similar to the Japanese sticks (i.e. too long a throw). However I think it would be a good idea to fit a red ball top to the Ultimarc T-Stik. This joystick feels much more like the old ones (short throw, strong spring) and is 4-8 way switchable. Also you could fit an extra long handle to make wood mounting easier. You could get away with this on the T-Stik because it has such a short throw to begin with.

The Competitons, Supers, and T-Stiks are all manufactured by the same company and presumably use the same diameter shaft. So it should be possible to manufacture a replacement handle that will fit all of them. You could cut a number of grooves into the shaft for fitting the c-clip, and you'd have one groove for each joystick type.

You might also consider making a replacement handle for the very underrated Suzo Universal Series 500. Not many people have used this joystick on their cabinets, probably because it's pretty ugly. However it has a really nice crisp feel, and is 4-8 way switchable (with difficulty).

It would also be nice if the ball tops could be unscrewed (the japanese sticks have this facility), and came in a variety of colours.

[OSCAR]

Wow, lots of different ideas!  Trigger sticks, SW yokes, hollow shafts, swappable handles, and the list goes on

[Andy]

I would be interested in a ball top joystick.  I also like the idea of the hollow shaft.  It's about as hard to find a good top fire joystick as it is to find a good ball top stick.  It would be great if you made something that can be expanded upon.  Common shaft, multiple style tops.

[Howard_Casto]

How about this...

You start with a hollowed shaft with some kind of locking mechanism on the threads and just pick your favorite top and manufacturer that first. Then you could make and sell other handles as you designed them.  So the consumer buys a shaft and then buy the preferred top seperately.  At first you migh tonly have color selections for the ball tops, but you could expand as demand increased for other styles.....

I also think that an analog base would be nice.  It could even be a hack from a el-cheapo usb joystick.  Those old 5$ 2-button flight sticks are about the same dimensions as a  standard 8-way if I remember correctly.  

[Tommy Boy]

Oscar, I'm with Howard and Andy.  The modular approach with a common shaft and selectable tops would be very flexible and cool.  Imagine: one quality 8-way stick with a set of your restrictors and a modular top could be a damn near "universal" (no reference to Happ intended) joystick.

It would be an 8-way, 4-way (straight or diagonal), or 2-way (horizontal or vertical), AND simultaneously a ball-top (in multiple colors), bat-style, or top-fire.  That's like 15-in-one (not counting different color options).  And you could quickly switch the personality of the stick to ANY of the 15 configurations in minutes -- seconds even -- without opening the panel!

The best part is that if you take Howard's approach you could find the common demoninator first, achieve good sales volumes to cover your overhead, then expand into additional "top options" with very little marginal development cost.  This is truly a cool line extension idea for your restrictors.  You could revelutionize the joystick industry!  

Seriously though, if you could also make the shaft assembly work accross more than one base -- say, Supers and Competitions to start -- customers could select the feel of the stick to suit their tastes.   And then the 4-way ball-top would feel exactly like their 8-way top-fire,which would feel exactly like their diagonal bat-style, etc., etc.

This is a seriously cool idea.

[PCC]

In addition to offering the ball tops in colors that match the Happ pushbuttons, I also think that a matching washer disc would finish it off nicely.

[Howard_Casto]

In addition to offering the ball tops in colors that match the Happ pushbuttons, I also think that a matching washer disc would finish it off nicely.

I've never seen a washer that wasn't black, ever.  I don't think they even make them in other colors.  It probably wouldn't be cost effective to make them as they are made in such bulk (virtually every stick uses the same one) that they are practically free.  A special colored order would be smaller and thus likely to be pricey.  

[Elkor]

The ultimarc sticks have color-matched washers

-C

[brandon]

how about making a shaft that would convert a super into an optical rotary?  or treading the bottom of the shaft and then later selling an encoder kit that screws in the bottom.  or maybe make a different handle that you could grip better for rotary games.  I dunno that might cost too much, just an idea.........

[SirPoonga]

Actually, converting a normal joystick into a rotory is dificult.  You have to keep the optics aligned with the encoder wheel at all times.  That means the optics have to move with stick.  Look at the diagram on the happs.  look how complicated that is.    note that bar coming down in front and the optics have a slot the the bar goes through,  that;s to keep the optic form rotating with the joystick.

[brandon]

yeah I've looked at the diagrams at Happs too.  It looks like its based on one of the regular sticks though... the shaft that keeps things from turning could be mounted on a bracket that goes on the existing mounting bolts on the joystick base.  Then a long fine thread-screw, screwed into the shaft with a nut holding the encoder at the end and the optics on some kind of oversized sleeve that just floats on the screw and moves with the shaft.   I dunno, it does sound really complicated but I think Oscar could do it

[OSCAR]

Oh sure, Oscar can do anything...   </sarcasm>  

Well, the rotaries definitely won't be high priority, that much I can say for sure.  I'm going to try to start with a more simple design and work from there.  What I'm going to have priced is a hollow shaft with multiple grooves for height adjustment.  If I work it out right, then that may mean no more routering for joysticks!  I still have to test that, of course, but I'm shooting for it.  I'm also going to have the shaft priced with a threaded end so the tops can be interchangable.  I have a pretty good idea for the thread locking of the top, and it will all be internal to the knob.

We'll see how it pans out from there, but if they turn out to be too expensive, then I'll start simplifying the design.  I'm going to try to have shop drawings ready soon, and I'll send them out for pricing.  I'll keep everyone posted on the results.  Thanks again for all the great ideas!

[nullb0y]

i highly sugest a button top joystick handle

[Rahzel]

It would be awesome if you made ball-top joysticks with chrome shaft with many different colors. I'm always buying old arcade machines and most of them use this type, but the joysticks are all rusty and old looking and It's so hard to find a replacement for them (other than blue and red). I'm also trying to restore an old TMNT 2 cab so if you make some Orange, Blue, Red and Purple ones hook me up

[Xiaou2]

Somehow, a sinistar joy should be made.  I made a decent one... but who knows how long it will last, and it wasnt too easy either.   The thing that makes it special and much better feel/control  was its x shaped rubber centering spider.   Obviously, this inst so easy to do, as the original used optos.

 A pot based sinistar joy with short chrome handle, and x shaped centering rubber, would surely rock.  Id buy one.  Anyone else?  : )

[Grasshopper]

One possibility would be to not bother making the ball tops, just make the shafts on their own.

You could have a thread on the top of the shaft that would accept a Japanese ball top, and people would then buy these separately.

The Japanese ball tops cost about

[J_K_M_A_N]

I like the idea of a Sinistar joystick! I would buy one for sure. I love that game but it is impossible to play with a regular stick.

J_K_M_A_N

[Tiger-Heli]

I like the idea of a Sinistar joystick! I would buy one for sure. I love that game but it is impossible to play with a regular stick.

J_K_M_A_N

OT, but does anyone have good info on how a Sinistar joy was set up and what is best to play it with now?  I never saw it before MAME.

[Xiaou2]

Well, thats the whole problem.   Sinistar only works with an analog stick.  But... the stick the arcade used, was special in a few ways...

http://epg3.tripod.com/sinistar.html
(look far doen the page for pics and an exploded view of the joy)

1) It was a 49way optical  (no biggie, as an analog stick works almost the same)

2) Its centering was done with the rubber x shaped 'spider' as they called it.  This makes a load of difference in the control and feel of the stick.   First off, its centering was perfect with no 'play' at all.  This means no accidental drifting when going slow and tring to pick up those crystals.  Also, when you move the stick, you are fighting 3 out of 4 legs of the spider... and the further you go outward, the Harder it is to push.  

A normal analog stick, uses a centering spring.  When you push outward, you get a 'constant' force to return -(not exponential like the original) ... so its hard in sinistar, to control your speed well.   Being that a lot of joys. centering isnt stable, you get unwanted drifting... and, because the joy is so easy to move from the center to the very outer edges, you end up going too fast.

 I hacked a joy, and made a makeshift centering spider out of some innertubes, and an analog stick.  My first attemp was a little weak (still on website), yet finding a sronger joy, I was able to get it going without it falling appart.    The control is soooo much better, it almost made me cry! : )

 Still, it would be nice to have an more durrable solution... as well as the fact that it isnt usb : (   ugg..

[1UP]

 I hacked a joy, and made a makeshift centering spider out of some innertubes, and an analog stick.  My first attemp was a little weak (still on website), yet finding a sronger joy, I was able to get it going without it falling appart.    The control is soooo much better, it almost made me cry! : )

  Still, it would be nice to have an more durrable solution... as well as the fact that it isnt usb : (   ugg..

The best thing I can think of would be some of those heavy bungie straps that are just big flat rubber strips.  Those might be stronger than innertubes.  or, you could cut an x out of the wall of an old tire...

Actually, converting a normal joystick into a rotory is dificult.  You have to keep the optics aligned with the encoder wheel at all times.  That means the optics have to move with stick.

Actually, you could do this, but it might not be quite as solid as the arcade sticks.  If you can make a spinner from mouse guts, you just need to attach it to a joystick.  Here's how to do it with a Happ super:  (Oh, no, here I go again!   )

First, you hot-glue several components together.  (I did this before in an attempt to stop my trigger-stick hack from rotating, but went another route.)  The hot glue is tough and will hold very well, but can be picked away with no real damage to the stick.



Now all these components can move on the mainspring, but will not rotate (much.)  We now have a pretty stable base to connect the optics board to, using a small bracket connected to the actuator.  Glue the light-chopper onto the bottom of the stick shaft so that it lines up with the optic sensors, and you've got a quick and dirty rotary stick!  Of course, it doesn't have neat little clicks that let you know where the positions are, but maybe you can figure out how to DIY!

YMMV