Possible new product - Opinions please!

[OSCAR]

I

[PCC]

Since you can use Super knobs on several types of sticks (examples), if you make the shafts just like a Super, it will work on Supers, Competitions, and Tulip joysticks.  Decent idea.  I think the colors should match the Happ pushbuttons (black, red, blue...)

[1UP]

How about some Tron stick-tops!  

[Howard_Casto]

I think it's an interesting idea, but the sf fan in me says it's a bad one.  8-way joysticks are mainly for games 1990 and newer right?  Well with the exception of 4-player beat-em ups.  none of these games used a ball top handle similar to teh wico style.  It is akward for both platformers and street fighters.  Data-east didn't do sf's but still didn't use a traditional ball-top.  What htye used was a mini ball-top that could act as a pivot point but yet still not get in the way for complex moves.  Strider, one of the few non-sf based capcom titles, used a similar stick.  

To my knowledge the only games that used ball-tops after this period were the 4-player games.

Anyway.. my point is... microswitch sticks were almost exclusively the happ style tops.. those that weren't were a mini ball top instead of a full-sized wico for more precise controls.

Ball tops work best for classics, in which case most people would want a leaf stick anyway.  

Now what would be nice would be a dataeast style shaft for a standard 8-way as they only used metal cps, and it's hard to mount an original dataeast stick on a wooden control panel.      

Oh and hi Kelsey

[MrArcade]

Video Connection sells ball top joys...leaf or micro

http://www.videoconnect.com/content/joys.htm

[OSCAR]

I think it's an interesting idea, but the sf fan in me says it's a bad one.  8-way joysticks are mainly for games 1990 and newer right?  Well with the exception of 4-player beat-em ups.  none of these games used a ball top handle similar to teh wico style.  It is akward for both platformers and street fighters.  Data-east didn't do sf's but still didn't use a traditional ball-top.  What htye used was a mini ball-top that could act as a pivot point but yet still not get in the way for complex moves.  Strider, one of the few non-sf based capcom titles, used a similar stick.  

To my knowledge the only games that used ball-tops after this period were the 4-player games.

Anyway.. my point is... microswitch sticks were almost exclusively the happ style tops.. those that weren't were a mini ball top instead of a full-sized wico for more precise controls.

Ball tops work best for classics, in which case most people would want a leaf stick anyway.  

Now what would be nice would be a dataeast style shaft for a standard 8-way as they only used metal cps, and it's hard to mount an original dataeast stick on a wooden control panel.      

Oh and hi Kelsey

It was exactly for some of these reasons that this idea has been shelved for over 6 months.  I was originally going to start on these back in January, but I released the restrictors first, and tucked this idea away for a later time.

Then.... I did see PCC's post regarding using the Super stick with other Happ bases and I started thinking about my idea again.  I also got to thinking that Namco did it with their Class of '81 cab (ball top w/ microswitches I mean), seeing more and more of the Japanese sitdown cabs on eBay as well as being converted to MAME cabs, Ultimarc's J-Stick (which looks really good to me, but I've never used them), and also OzStick uses ball tops... And then it occurred to me that this just may not as bad of an idea as I originally thought.

Anyway, I'm just as receptive to the negative feedback as the positive, because I don't want to eat a bunch of joystick shafts if nobody wants them.



1UP - I think if Arcade Renovations backed out of the Tron handles, then it must have been for a good reason.  I'm not ready to pick up a product someone else dropped, presumably from lack of interest, but I don't know that for sure.  I would've really liked to see them, though.  


Thanks for the input so far guys.  Keep it up!

Oh, and hi Howard.  

[OSCAR]

Video Connection sells ball top joys...leaf or micro

http://www.videoconnect.com/content/joys.htm

Yeah, I know they did, sorry I left them off my previous list.  The last time I called them, they weren't selling the leaf style anymore (even though they were still on the website) because they couldn't get more and they wanted to keep what they had for conversions.  I believe someone even posted here that they got the same response from them some time ago.  Someone also posted about their Wico microswitch stick and didn't have much good to say about it.  Was it ArcadeFX, I don't remember?  My thinking was to offer a ball top for a much more commonly used joystick, that's all.

[1UP]

1UP - I think if Arcade Renovations backed out of the Tron handles, then it must have been for a good reason.  I'm not ready to pick up a product someone else dropped, presumably from lack of interest, but I don't know that for sure.  I would've really liked to see them, though.  

Actually, it was a problem with the guy who was going to mold them.  They apparently had enough interest though...  Damn, I guess I'm gonna have to start watching ebay again for some old ones...  

[Howard_Casto]

Could you get ahold of some hollow shafts?  What is really rare right now are ball-tops with buttons on the top.  I would be willing to pre-order a couple of those if anyone would make them.

[Tiger-Heli]

Hi OSCAR,

Interesting idea.  BTW, www.gamebrick.com (no longer on the web) used to sell replacement super shafts with a wooden ball on the end.  I think they were like $20.00.  Don't know why gamebrick disappeared, but I doubt it was over joystick shafts.

For me, I think I will be happy playing PacMan with the standard Competition handle and your restrictor plates.  It's not arcade authentic, but then again, I don't think it will bother me.  (Then again, I HATE scanlines, b/c I prefer seeing my games the way they SHOULD have been, rather than the way they really were.)  Doesn't mean it's a bad idea, just not something I would be interested in.

What I think might sell better (and again, I think I'm covered, so this is not for my personal use) is your trigger stick hack.  I think it would be possible to buy a bunch of 6-10 dollar two-button (trigger and thumb) PC joysticks, mount them to a shaft that fits a super and sell them for around $25.00.  Then for $35.00, you have a stick that works well for Tron or BattleZone or Zaxxon, etc., compared to $110.00 for the Tron stick from Happ or $190 for the closest thing Happ sells to a Battlezone stick (http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/95006500.htm, not the tulip stick).

[Brax]

I think the ball tops look very cool and very authentic. I would love to have some. Especially with the chrome shaft. The supers look a little too plastic for my tastes.

Buuuuut, my control panel is black with blue buttons. Button colours are an excellent idea.

[Minwah]

Sounds like a very good idea to me

Maybe you could think about also doing a chromed washer to replace the plastic part which covers the hole in the control panel (?).  This would compliment the chrome stick nicely

As said previously, it would be good if the ball tops were available in a few different colors - I like red ones but it might not suit everyone's cabs/taste.

Cheers

[bhille]

Hi OSCAR,

What I think might sell better (and again, I think I'm covered, so this is not for my personal use) is your trigger stick hack.  I think it would be possible to buy a bunch of 6-10 dollar two-button (trigger and thumb) PC joysticks, mount them to a shaft that fits a super and sell them for around $25.00.  Then for $35.00, you have a stick that works well for Tron or BattleZone or Zaxxon, etc., compared to $110.00 for the Tron stick from Happ or $190 for the closest thing Happ sells to a Battlezone stick (http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/95006500.htm, not the tulip stick).

I would like to second this one.  I think having at least a trigger button would be pretty cool.  It would be awesome if these shafts would work on the t-stick as well (I'll have 2 of these and 2 supers in my cab).  Not sure I would go for the ball tops...just not my thing.

Brian

[SirPoonga]

Actaully, the idea might sell if it was a short shaft.  At least for cocktail builders.

[RacerX]

Dang.  I thought the possible new product you were teasing us with was a Star Wars yoke.    

[hyiu]

I would also be interested in ball top on Competition...
(somehow, I like competition more then Super...)

but I need long shaft cos I'm using 3/4 in plywood + artwork + lexan on control panel.... (but I'm planning to route a little bit on the wood....)

I already got the J-stick from Ultimarc... they're good....
but I still like the competition more...
(so... I'll be mounting competition on my cab.. not j-sticks...)

if you can make just the shaft replacements and its long enough, then I'll most likely order 2 also !!...

 

[Tiger-Heli]

Dang.  I thought the possible new product you were teasing us with was a Star Wars yoke.    

I was hoping that too !!!    

[rampy]

Dang.  I thought the possible new product you were teasing us with was a Star Wars yoke.    

I was hoping that too !!!    

Just to add to the "me too" train... I was hoping it was a SW style yoke product as well...

*shrug* (not to discourage you from the ball top super replacement shafts... just would be more excited about a SW yolk) =)

rampy

[Lilwolf]

I would be interested in a shaft that will fit into an analog joystick.  Why?  for adding console games to my cabinet for my daughter.

The wico's were the 4way... and yes it was Ed (ArcadeFX) that complained.  But he had the microswitch and I have the leaf switch (I think they are ok -> good.... would have liked more of a restrictor types on the diagonals...

As for the SW joystick.  Look at the twistygrip.  They are pretty cool I hear!  

I wish someone would build/sell full made twistygrips myself.  When you look at what it takes to make it, it would seem like building 2 or more wouldn't cost that much more then building one.

[brandon]

I like the idea of the hollow shafts.  What about a hollow shaft that was threaded inside or a regular shaft that was drilled and tapped so that differnt handles could be screwed on?  that might be a little much..just an idea....

[Grasshopper]

I think That's a really cool idea! Please don't be put off by the other posts. I'm prepared to pre-order at least two of them.

At the moment there is really no substitute for the increasingly hard to find Wicos.

I know the japanese sticks look good but there are a number of problems with them:

* Firstly and most importantly they just don't feel traditional like the Wicos, the throw is too long and the springs are too light.

* The ball tops are too small. I know that some of the older games use balls with the same diameter however I personally prefer the bigger ones on the Wicos.

* Most of them have short shafts which makes them difficult to mount in wood. I see the ones on Ultimarc's site have longer shafts however this presumably makes the throw even longer.

Personally I wouldn't fit a ball top to a super joystick as you'll end up with something similar to the Japanese sticks (i.e. too long a throw). However I think it would be a good idea to fit a red ball top to the Ultimarc T-Stik. This joystick feels much more like the old ones (short throw, strong spring) and is 4-8 way switchable. Also you could fit an extra long handle to make wood mounting easier. You could get away with this on the T-Stik because it has such a short throw to begin with.

The Competitons, Supers, and T-Stiks are all manufactured by the same company and presumably use the same diameter shaft. So it should be possible to manufacture a replacement handle that will fit all of them. You could cut a number of grooves into the shaft for fitting the c-clip, and you'd have one groove for each joystick type.

You might also consider making a replacement handle for the very underrated Suzo Universal Series 500. Not many people have used this joystick on their cabinets, probably because it's pretty ugly. However it has a really nice crisp feel, and is 4-8 way switchable (with difficulty).

It would also be nice if the ball tops could be unscrewed (the japanese sticks have this facility), and came in a variety of colours.

[OSCAR]

Wow, lots of different ideas!  Trigger sticks, SW yokes, hollow shafts, swappable handles, and the list goes on

[Andy]

I would be interested in a ball top joystick.  I also like the idea of the hollow shaft.  It's about as hard to find a good top fire joystick as it is to find a good ball top stick.  It would be great if you made something that can be expanded upon.  Common shaft, multiple style tops.

[Howard_Casto]

How about this...

You start with a hollowed shaft with some kind of locking mechanism on the threads and just pick your favorite top and manufacturer that first. Then you could make and sell other handles as you designed them.  So the consumer buys a shaft and then buy the preferred top seperately.  At first you migh tonly have color selections for the ball tops, but you could expand as demand increased for other styles.....

I also think that an analog base would be nice.  It could even be a hack from a el-cheapo usb joystick.  Those old 5$ 2-button flight sticks are about the same dimensions as a  standard 8-way if I remember correctly.  

[Tommy Boy]

Oscar, I'm with Howard and Andy.  The modular approach with a common shaft and selectable tops would be very flexible and cool.  Imagine: one quality 8-way stick with a set of your restrictors and a modular top could be a damn near "universal" (no reference to Happ intended) joystick.

It would be an 8-way, 4-way (straight or diagonal), or 2-way (horizontal or vertical), AND simultaneously a ball-top (in multiple colors), bat-style, or top-fire.  That's like 15-in-one (not counting different color options).  And you could quickly switch the personality of the stick to ANY of the 15 configurations in minutes -- seconds even -- without opening the panel!

The best part is that if you take Howard's approach you could find the common demoninator first, achieve good sales volumes to cover your overhead, then expand into additional "top options" with very little marginal development cost.  This is truly a cool line extension idea for your restrictors.  You could revelutionize the joystick industry!  

Seriously though, if you could also make the shaft assembly work accross more than one base -- say, Supers and Competitions to start -- customers could select the feel of the stick to suit their tastes.   And then the 4-way ball-top would feel exactly like their 8-way top-fire,which would feel exactly like their diagonal bat-style, etc., etc.

This is a seriously cool idea.

[PCC]

In addition to offering the ball tops in colors that match the Happ pushbuttons, I also think that a matching washer disc would finish it off nicely.

[Howard_Casto]

In addition to offering the ball tops in colors that match the Happ pushbuttons, I also think that a matching washer disc would finish it off nicely.

I've never seen a washer that wasn't black, ever.  I don't think they even make them in other colors.  It probably wouldn't be cost effective to make them as they are made in such bulk (virtually every stick uses the same one) that they are practically free.  A special colored order would be smaller and thus likely to be pricey.  

[Elkor]

The ultimarc sticks have color-matched washers

-C

[brandon]

how about making a shaft that would convert a super into an optical rotary?  or treading the bottom of the shaft and then later selling an encoder kit that screws in the bottom.  or maybe make a different handle that you could grip better for rotary games.  I dunno that might cost too much, just an idea.........

[SirPoonga]

Actually, converting a normal joystick into a rotory is dificult.  You have to keep the optics aligned with the encoder wheel at all times.  That means the optics have to move with stick.  Look at the diagram on the happs.  look how complicated that is.    note that bar coming down in front and the optics have a slot the the bar goes through,  that;s to keep the optic form rotating with the joystick.

[brandon]

yeah I've looked at the diagrams at Happs too.  It looks like its based on one of the regular sticks though... the shaft that keeps things from turning could be mounted on a bracket that goes on the existing mounting bolts on the joystick base.  Then a long fine thread-screw, screwed into the shaft with a nut holding the encoder at the end and the optics on some kind of oversized sleeve that just floats on the screw and moves with the shaft.   I dunno, it does sound really complicated but I think Oscar could do it

[OSCAR]

Oh sure, Oscar can do anything...   </sarcasm>  

Well, the rotaries definitely won't be high priority, that much I can say for sure.  I'm going to try to start with a more simple design and work from there.  What I'm going to have priced is a hollow shaft with multiple grooves for height adjustment.  If I work it out right, then that may mean no more routering for joysticks!  I still have to test that, of course, but I'm shooting for it.  I'm also going to have the shaft priced with a threaded end so the tops can be interchangable.  I have a pretty good idea for the thread locking of the top, and it will all be internal to the knob.

We'll see how it pans out from there, but if they turn out to be too expensive, then I'll start simplifying the design.  I'm going to try to have shop drawings ready soon, and I'll send them out for pricing.  I'll keep everyone posted on the results.  Thanks again for all the great ideas!

[nullb0y]

i highly sugest a button top joystick handle

[Rahzel]

It would be awesome if you made ball-top joysticks with chrome shaft with many different colors. I'm always buying old arcade machines and most of them use this type, but the joysticks are all rusty and old looking and It's so hard to find a replacement for them (other than blue and red). I'm also trying to restore an old TMNT 2 cab so if you make some Orange, Blue, Red and Purple ones hook me up

[Xiaou2]

Somehow, a sinistar joy should be made.  I made a decent one... but who knows how long it will last, and it wasnt too easy either.   The thing that makes it special and much better feel/control  was its x shaped rubber centering spider.   Obviously, this inst so easy to do, as the original used optos.

 A pot based sinistar joy with short chrome handle, and x shaped centering rubber, would surely rock.  Id buy one.  Anyone else?  : )

[Grasshopper]

One possibility would be to not bother making the ball tops, just make the shafts on their own.

You could have a thread on the top of the shaft that would accept a Japanese ball top, and people would then buy these separately.

The Japanese ball tops cost about

[J_K_M_A_N]

I like the idea of a Sinistar joystick! I would buy one for sure. I love that game but it is impossible to play with a regular stick.

J_K_M_A_N

[Tiger-Heli]

I like the idea of a Sinistar joystick! I would buy one for sure. I love that game but it is impossible to play with a regular stick.

J_K_M_A_N

OT, but does anyone have good info on how a Sinistar joy was set up and what is best to play it with now?  I never saw it before MAME.

[Xiaou2]

Well, thats the whole problem.   Sinistar only works with an analog stick.  But... the stick the arcade used, was special in a few ways...

http://epg3.tripod.com/sinistar.html
(look far doen the page for pics and an exploded view of the joy)

1) It was a 49way optical  (no biggie, as an analog stick works almost the same)

2) Its centering was done with the rubber x shaped 'spider' as they called it.  This makes a load of difference in the control and feel of the stick.   First off, its centering was perfect with no 'play' at all.  This means no accidental drifting when going slow and tring to pick up those crystals.  Also, when you move the stick, you are fighting 3 out of 4 legs of the spider... and the further you go outward, the Harder it is to push.  

A normal analog stick, uses a centering spring.  When you push outward, you get a 'constant' force to return -(not exponential like the original) ... so its hard in sinistar, to control your speed well.   Being that a lot of joys. centering isnt stable, you get unwanted drifting... and, because the joy is so easy to move from the center to the very outer edges, you end up going too fast.

 I hacked a joy, and made a makeshift centering spider out of some innertubes, and an analog stick.  My first attemp was a little weak (still on website), yet finding a sronger joy, I was able to get it going without it falling appart.    The control is soooo much better, it almost made me cry! : )

 Still, it would be nice to have an more durrable solution... as well as the fact that it isnt usb : (   ugg..

[1UP]

 I hacked a joy, and made a makeshift centering spider out of some innertubes, and an analog stick.  My first attemp was a little weak (still on website), yet finding a sronger joy, I was able to get it going without it falling appart.    The control is soooo much better, it almost made me cry! : )

  Still, it would be nice to have an more durrable solution... as well as the fact that it isnt usb : (   ugg..

The best thing I can think of would be some of those heavy bungie straps that are just big flat rubber strips.  Those might be stronger than innertubes.  or, you could cut an x out of the wall of an old tire...

Actually, converting a normal joystick into a rotory is dificult.  You have to keep the optics aligned with the encoder wheel at all times.  That means the optics have to move with stick.

Actually, you could do this, but it might not be quite as solid as the arcade sticks.  If you can make a spinner from mouse guts, you just need to attach it to a joystick.  Here's how to do it with a Happ super:  (Oh, no, here I go again!   )

First, you hot-glue several components together.  (I did this before in an attempt to stop my trigger-stick hack from rotating, but went another route.)  The hot glue is tough and will hold very well, but can be picked away with no real damage to the stick.



Now all these components can move on the mainspring, but will not rotate (much.)  We now have a pretty stable base to connect the optics board to, using a small bracket connected to the actuator.  Glue the light-chopper onto the bottom of the stick shaft so that it lines up with the optic sensors, and you've got a quick and dirty rotary stick!  Of course, it doesn't have neat little clicks that let you know where the positions are, but maybe you can figure out how to DIY!

YMMV

[Xiaou2]

 1up,  you got me wrong.   Sinistar was not a rotating optical joy.   It was a 49way joy.

 Also, what I meant by durability, was not the straps - they worked great (though I needed to use those metal circular 'holed' type of rivot that I cant think of the name)
It was that the joystick itself, usually plastic (analog), dont always hold up to the strong forces of the rubber tension.

Thats how my first one broke.   I remade it with a analog joy that had a stonger housing, and lucked out that it was semi-decent to mount as well.

Here is the OLD joy that broke.  I havent tooken a pic of the new one yet.  The old one needed a zip tie to hold the guts together... but it wasnt good enough.  Also, this is before I added a nice ball top... instead, its was a temp scrap piece.  And finally, those top washers were done away with... again, that was just a test.





note: the 4 wood blocks were to keep the base slightly raised from the bottom, to allow for good pivot as well as room for a rubber protector that keeps stuff from falling into the stick...and to allow room for the straps!  These straps were from those tie-downs... but they were too inflexible, and i later used the innertubes, wich worked a Lot better : )

[1UP]

1up,  you got me wrong.   Sinistar was not a rotating optical joy.   It was a 49way joy.

You misunderstood, the second part of my post was in reply to another message about rotary sticks...

Good lord, that's HUGE!  Wouldn't fit on my CP.  Seems like you could get nearly the same effect by either using a stronger spring, or using some sort of hard rubber ring around the joystick post, that gets compressed against the joystick base.  Like a piece of thick automotive hose that you drop into the opening on the top of a Happ super.  But with an analog stick.  BTW, I didn't think about that--there's no analog stick on my cab!    How will I play Sinistar?  Wonder if I could use my yoke...

[Xiaou2]

Its the same size as a happs trackball plate.  

As for the approach, there is a reason that its done that way.  Its the smae design type as the original - which uses an x shaped rubber centering device.  

 I tried using a realy heavy spring, and it wasnt the same.  You see, the force is pivotal and stays in the very center.  Once you get the thing in motion (out of the center) the force is the same everywhere.  This means, its too easy to move to the outer edge.  

 The best way to describe this...  Think of a brake -vs- a gas peddle.   The gas pedal has a spring... but even if it was heavy, its still pivotal.  Once you get it past the main pivot, its easy to press the pedal down with the same amount of force.

 A brake however,  uses a compression method.  It gets harder to push the pedal down, the further you push it.   It may take 5 lbs to push the peddal a cm,  but 30lbs to push it in at 4 inches.

 The way the spider works is that if you go left... you are fighting 4 bands.... though, the closer bands will be easier as they arent streched as far as the further bands - making it harder to push the further you go.  

 This is a HUGE factor in how the game operates... and nothing else will work effectively.  Trust me, I tried

 A smaller, more efffective x shape, would reduce the size... although,  its not easy to come by such material.   The guy who makes a replacement for the real machines, wouldnt make one the would fit the shaft I was using... because it wasnt cost effective.

[Xiaou2]

Just thought about another way to describe...

If the spring/tention device is in the center,  the force is hardest in the middle... but because of the leverage or the shaft,  its actually easier to push the further you go outward.  

 On the other hand,  if the spring/tention device is ancored far away from the center, if makes it works the opposite, being harder to push the further you press outward.

[OSCAR]

Sorry, this post is completely off the main topic, but I like the turn it has taken....

Sinistar.  A roller rink not far from where I grew up had one, along with an Asteroids.  My fondest childhood arcade memories are accompanied by the sound of "Run, Coward, Run!"  

However, I can't play Sinistar in MAME, unless I'm doing something totally wrong.  Perhaps there is a simple fix for this, but I guess I haven't looked hard enough to figure it out.  How do you keep the ship from constantly moving?  Maybe my memory isn't what it used to be, but I'm sure it wasn't like this on the original cab.  The constant moving makes it very difficult to play.  I thought I read somewhere once that AdvanceMAME had a fix for this auto-centering problem, but I have never taken the time to try it.  Is this a problem with the MAME driver, or is it something else?  Since the ship starts moving as soon as the game is started before I even touch the joystick, I'm guessing that just by using an analog stick won't fix it.

How are you guys playing it?  With AdvanceMAME, or something different?

[Ryan]

Oscar, the ship in Sinistar is supposed to be constantly moving. It is very difficult, I love it!

[OSCAR]

Damn, I must be getting old.  The reflexs are slowing down...  

I figured by reading the analog suggestion here:  http://www.mameworld.net/mametesters/orange.html, that it was a keyboard problem.  Since I'm using an IPAC (keyboard), I was assuming the auto center comment meant that using an analog stick "fixed" it.

I can't seem to find the link anymore, but I swore that some build of MAME had an auto centering fix.  I thought is was AdvanceMAME, but I could be wrong.

[OSCAR]

Ahaha, found it!

http://www.retrogames.com/012001.html

I guess it is AdvanceMAME that fixes the centering problem with keyboards and keyboard encoders.

[brandon]

I know this is getting off topic but did anybody make an interface for real 49-way sticks?  I have several in excellent shape on an Arch Rivals CP.  I dont know of any way to connect them to a PC and I dont have a PCB that uses them  either....  Oh well, maybe I should just sell them to somebody that really needs them.....

[Xiaou2]

 Hi Oscar,

   There really isnt a problem with the game.   Its just that the controller needs to be different.

 I just did a test with mame32, with a USB Thrustmapper Dual Power force feedback joypad.  Its very nice and works with mame beautifully... even for robotron.

 It works 'ok'  and dosnt drift like some other sticks.  You can however use the joystick deadzone adjuster to help with that.   Still, its not the same as the original...as its a lot harder to control without the propper resistence as noted in my several post.



 
   

[Xiaou2]

 Just a sidenote,  it may be interesting to have a real 49way encoder... but... the new 49way sticks are not the same as the sinistar joy.  Again, they ues the spings in the center, making the contol just as poor as a regular analog stick.


  Ohh.. and heres a closeup of the real deal:




This is the guy that makes the replacemnets

 http://www.enteract.com/~twisnion/spider.htm

[Xiaou2]

Oscar, the ship in Sinistar is supposed to be constantly moving. It is very difficult, I love it!

No, you can stop.  you just need the joy to be Perfectly centered.

Playing with a keyboard isnt the answer either  : (

[1UP]

Its the same size as a happs trackball plate.

Really?  Looked big in the pics, nothing there for size ref.

A smaller, more efffective x shape, would reduce the size... although,  its not easy to come by such material.   The guy who makes a replacement for the real machines, wouldnt make one the would fit the shaft I was using... because it wasnt cost effective.

I understand what you're saying about the X shape now.  If you think about the fact that the vector of each "arm" of the X is changing as you stretch it, therefore giving more resistance in the direction of motion, makes perfect sense!  In the beginning, the bands are more perpendicular to the direction of movement, but as they extend, they are more parallel to the direction of movement.

Anyway, if the shaft you're using is too big to fit the replacement spiders, maybe you could drill a hole in the end of your plastic shaft, and insert a thinner metal rod to fit.

[Xiaou2]

 
Hey 1up,

  Phew, someone finnaly got it   : )     I dont have the mechanical/mathmatical lingo or intelligence.   I can understand the principles... but thats about all I got.

 Anyway, funny you mentioned the metal pole.    My original stick wasnt hackable for that for some reason... I think the tube was too brittel.     On the next one tho, I did manage to ram a metal pole down there,  as the tube on this one was much stonger.   I may have even had to made a special adappter to take care of 'play'.    The stick I ended up hacking, was this:



Maybe it I had thought it over a bit more... I may have been able to use the real spider.  Unfortunately, I think the hole is still to small for the shaft I used.   The original sinistar joy has the spider on the bottom... but that wasnt possible cause the pots are down there... so I had to mount it above - just under the control panel, and before the main guts.   Also remember that the stick cant be too far down from the panel, as the length of the shaft will make a difference in feel, as well as needing a larger circluar top hole in the mounting plate.  

 Being that the metal pole has to be strong enough to withstand the abuse and strength of the bands working against them, I had to use a fairly dence width.   The original tapered the pole at the end... so its not possible to do that in reverse.  

  Maybe Oscar could work out a 'mass' buy deal and get the guy to make spiders with larger hole centers...?  

 

[SirPoonga]

Oscar, the ship in Sinistar is supposed to be constantly moving. It is very difficult, I love it!

No, you can stop.  you just need the joy to be Perfectly centered.

Playing with a keyboard isnt the answer either  : (

I just ran sinistar (I've NEVER played it in my life).  The ship is always moving.


actually, I'd love to see a 49way somehow on a PC.  I have NFL Blitz for the PC, it would be cool to play that with arcade controls.

[Xiaou2]

No really, you CAN stop on a dime.  Your joy has to be perfect centered (and it must be analog). (try adjusting the deadzone, and decreasing sensativity)  I JUST ran the game and did it.  
(you also have to reverse the current momentum of the ship, so that its ballenced)

The reason, is that you have to be able to go slow and mine with accuracy, then speed up quickly to get away form the enemy.

 If you watch the previews, you can see how slow you can go.  Also, I was an avaid player of the original.  I know my game : )

[)p(]

Dang.  I thought the possible new product you were teasing us with was a Star Wars yoke.    

I was hoping that too !!!    

Just to add to the "me too" train... I was hoping it was a SW style yoke product as well...

*shrug* (not to discourage you from the ball top super replacement shafts... just would be more excited about a SW yolk) =)

rampy

Oh..yes a yoke!!! A metal one...I can dream...

peter

[SirPoonga]

No really, you CAN stop on a dime.  Your joy has to be perfect centered (and it must be analog). (try adjusting the deadzone, and decreasing sensativity)  I JUST ran the game and did it.  
(you also have to reverse the current momentum of the ship, so that its ballenced)

The reason, is that you have to be able to go slow and mine with accuracy, then speed up quickly to get away form the enemy.

 If you watch the previews, you can see how slow you can go.  Also, I was an avaid player of the original.  I know my game : )

BUT I DON'T HAVE A JOYSTICK HOOKED UP!
The ship just starts moving, I don't push anything, what;s up with that???  Like oscar said.

[Xiaou2]

 
It has to do with the way mame sees the controls.  For a keyboard stoke, it makes the ship travel at maximum speed.   And for some odd reason, when you exit the game and restart it,  it remembers the last velocity setting.   If you erase the the ini files... it might start out perfectly still.

 I just tried it... I started a game, and the ship was motionless.  I pressed a keystroke, and it went at berzerk speed.  I escaped it, and restared.  The ship was moving at warp, and no keys were pressed.   I used the analog stick, to slow it and stop it.  I then restarted, and it was motionless again.

  Being that keyboards have no way to show acceleration, its impossible to control sinistar this way.  Some games use acceleration in them, so its ok... but sinistar takes the direct value of the stick, and 'makes it so'
 
  I believe the patch available, forces the values to return to perfect center when you let go of the key.  Not sure if they added a simulated acceleration and deceleration.   Even if they did... its not as true as the real analog controler, cause you litterally can stop immediately and accurately with good analog controls.

 

[OSCAR]

Ahh, good.  Ryan made me think that I had lost my mind.  I knew that it was supposed to stop.

I believe that the auto centering feature of AdvanceMAME makes it do exactly that.  When you release a directional key, the ship stops.  This is so you can play the analog games with keyboard controls.  I don't know if the ship will drift like in Asteroids when the thrust is released, or if it stops immediately.  I haven't tried it in AdvanceMAME yet, but I'm going to this weekend if I get a chance.

[OSCAR]

Oh, and I also realize that playing without a true analog stick "just isn't the same", but at least it will be playable using a standard joystick through an IPAC.

[SirPoonga]

It has to do with the way mame sees the controls.  For a keyboard stoke, it makes the ship travel at maximum speed.   And for some odd reason, when you exit the game and restart it,  it remembers the last velocity setting.   If you erase the the ini files... it might start out perfectly still.

Nope it won't since I said

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=2666

and

BUT I DON'T HAVE A JOYSTICK HOOKED UP!

So I guess I won't be able to.

[brandon]

I have a couple of 49-way joysticks and the 'X" on the bottom is parallel with each joy axis.  so its not really an "X" if you think about it but more of a "+".  Xiaou2 maybe yours "X" needs to be rotated 45 degrees? just a thought...

[Xiaou2]

Heh... interesting.  Probably messed that up cause i dont have one, and because I couldnt find an adequate picture to see that at the time of build.

 Also, I believe when I put it together, I realized that I needed the maximum amount of length on each leg of the spider.   I was using some hard rubber tiedowns, and they didnt flex too much.  

 It seems to work good regardless tho.


 Thanks for the info.  Maybe I may try again sometime, and see if mounting it the other way feels ok.

[KeithD]

Oscar,
You might look into nickel plating instead of chrome. A little cheaper, and looks just as nice.
Just a suggestion in case you need *just a little more* to make it economically feasible.

K

[shaunti]

I'm also looking into interfaceing a 49-way to the PC.

Here's the gameport pinouts.

http://www.technick.net/index.php?load_page=http%3A//www.technick.net/pinconjoy_pc_game.php

I'm not sure if I can rig up the 49-way as an anolog joystick and load a simple driver, then I can callibrate it.

Has anyone looked into this?

[spidermonkey]

I am willing to bet that Arcade Renovations backed out of the tron repo handles because Happ Controls owns the rights to them would most certainly sue anybody who tries to reproduce them. Happ's 8-way heavyduty trigger stick uses the same exact handle except in black. They bought the Midway coinops department a couple of years ago so the only way we will ever see blue Tron triggerstick shells is if we convince Happ to start offering them in translucent blue. I have my doubts that we will be successfull though because for the most part Happ Controls is really only listening to the major arcade vendors since they are the ones who buy the majority of their product. I've already e-mailed them with this idea and also gave them the link to this website so they could see what types of products that we are all longing for and I received no responce either good or bad. I guess that leaves us to continue trolling Ebay for halfway decent used ones.

[REBIRTH]

The original topic seems to have been forgotten about a bit - but I woul dlike the idea of a ball handle replacemnet for the Happ joysticks (I have the competitions).  I have 1 joystick using your 4-way restrictors dedicated for such games like PacMan - having a ball top would be great.

Doug

[OSCAR]

To be honest, this possible product has been on the back burner.

The reason is:  After I started this thread, another individual has started fabricating balltop replacements for various joysticks, including the Happ Comp's.  They are frequently on eBay.  I seriously doubt I could beat his price on them, and he seems to be selling a quality product from what I've heard so far.

This niche appears to be filled for the time being, and I would rather spend my time looking into areas that are still lacking in solutions.  I think it would benefit more of us in the long run if I do that, rather than try to go into direct competition with another product.  I do have a couple more ideas up my sleeve for products that aren't currently available, and my plan is to concentrate more on those after the first of the year.

I do thank everyone that contributed their thoughts on this idea, and it seems that someone has stepped up to provide us with a solution.  That's the important thing, I think.  

[spidermonkey]

If Kelsey is going to make them then should do it quickly. They're's a guy selling  bat to ball conversion shafts on Ebay like hotcakes. I bought a couple and I think Frostillicus bought a couple too. If I knew that Oscar was definately going to make them I surely would have waited and bought them from him and I'm sure Mr. Frost would have too. Not to say that just because he and I already bought them that their is no longer a market for them. (totally ridiculous) but if we got em then I'm sure alot of other cabinet builders have also. If he is going to make them then everybody should hold off and buy them from him. His will probably be of nicer quality anyway. I'm starting another cabinet in the Spring and if Oscar is makeing them then I'll be buying.

[OSCAR]

Point taken.  I apologize if anyone was "on the fence" waiting for me to produce these.

Before I could take on another product, I had to streamline my current products.  This is what really drove the recent spinner improvements, including the use of a common optic board.  The use of the new optic board alone has freed up much of my time already.

In the meantime, however, someone else started to fabricate these particular items.  I really wish I could move faster on these types of projects, but when trying to coordinate different vendors, order stock, answer emails, and process current orders all in a few hours every night after my real job, it doesn't leave much time for new product development.  Don't get me wrong, I love doing this stuff or else I wouldn't be doing it at all!  

[spidermonkey]

Sorry Oscar
Apparently I started writing my post before you but you finished your post before me. I wasn't beating a dead horse, I just hadn't read your 2nd to last post before I posted my last post.    Uhh, I think I worded this correctlly. Now I'm confusing myself   Oh well, don't mind my rambling.

[Grasshopper]

Oscar, it's a shame you have now decided not to sell ball top replacement handles, although I can understand your reasons why.

I've been keeping an eye on the handles being sold on Ebay and they look very promising. However the problem from my point of view is that the guy only seems to sell to the USA. Also his prices have been very erratic - sometimes cheap and other times very expensive especially for stainless steel handles. From memory I think one of his handles went for $30.

Also I wish someone would produce a ball top for the T-Stik which IMHO works better for early games.

[BASSOFeeSH]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=749067910

$50 for 10 if this is what you're talking about.

[hyiu]

hey... that shaft looks pretty cool.... how much will it stick out if we're talking about 3/4 plywood and 1/8 lexan with just little bit routing ??