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Author Topic: Possible new product - Opinions please!  (Read 13205 times)

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Xiaou2

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2002, 09:17:23 pm »
 1up,  you got me wrong.   Sinistar was not a rotating optical joy.   It was a 49way joy.

 Also, what I meant by durability, was not the straps - they worked great (though I needed to use those metal circular 'holed' type of rivot that I cant think of the name)
It was that the joystick itself, usually plastic (analog), dont always hold up to the strong forces of the rubber tension.

Thats how my first one broke.   I remade it with a analog joy that had a stonger housing, and lucked out that it was semi-decent to mount as well.

Here is the OLD joy that broke.  I havent tooken a pic of the new one yet.  The old one needed a zip tie to hold the guts together... but it wasnt good enough.  Also, this is before I added a nice ball top... instead, its was a temp scrap piece.  And finally, those top washers were done away with... again, that was just a test.





note: the 4 wood blocks were to keep the base slightly raised from the bottom, to allow for good pivot as well as room for a rubber protector that keeps stuff from falling into the stick...and to allow room for the straps!  These straps were from those tie-downs... but they were too inflexible, and i later used the innertubes, wich worked a Lot better : )

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2002, 10:01:26 pm »

1up,  you got me wrong.   Sinistar was not a rotating optical joy.   It was a 49way joy.


You misunderstood, the second part of my post was in reply to another message about rotary sticks...

Good lord, that's HUGE!  Wouldn't fit on my CP.  Seems like you could get nearly the same effect by either using a stronger spring, or using some sort of hard rubber ring around the joystick post, that gets compressed against the joystick base.  Like a piece of thick automotive hose that you drop into the opening on the top of a Happ super.  But with an analog stick.  BTW, I didn't think about that--there's no analog stick on my cab!  :o  How will I play Sinistar?  Wonder if I could use my yoke...

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Xiaou2

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2002, 10:56:09 pm »

Its the same size as a happs trackball plate.  

As for the approach, there is a reason that its done that way.  Its the smae design type as the original - which uses an x shaped rubber centering device.  

 I tried using a realy heavy spring, and it wasnt the same.  You see, the force is pivotal and stays in the very center.  Once you get the thing in motion (out of the center) the force is the same everywhere.  This means, its too easy to move to the outer edge.  

 The best way to describe this...  Think of a brake -vs- a gas peddle.   The gas pedal has a spring... but even if it was heavy, its still pivotal.  Once you get it past the main pivot, its easy to press the pedal down with the same amount of force.

 A brake however,  uses a compression method.  It gets harder to push the pedal down, the further you push it.   It may take 5 lbs to push the peddal a cm,  but 30lbs to push it in at 4 inches.

 The way the spider works is that if you go left... you are fighting 4 bands.... though, the closer bands will be easier as they arent streched as far as the further bands - making it harder to push the further you go.  

 This is a HUGE factor in how the game operates... and nothing else will work effectively.  Trust me, I tried

 A smaller, more efffective x shape, would reduce the size... although,  its not easy to come by such material.   The guy who makes a replacement for the real machines, wouldnt make one the would fit the shaft I was using... because it wasnt cost effective.


Xiaou2

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2002, 11:15:52 pm »

Just thought about another way to describe...

If the spring/tention device is in the center,  the force is hardest in the middle... but because of the leverage or the shaft,  its actually easier to push the further you go outward.  

 On the other hand,  if the spring/tention device is ancored far away from the center, if makes it works the opposite, being harder to push the further you press outward.


OSCAR

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2002, 11:27:44 pm »
Sorry, this post is completely off the main topic, but I like the turn it has taken....

Sinistar.  A roller rink not far from where I grew up had one, along with an Asteroids.  My fondest childhood arcade memories are accompanied by the sound of "Run, Coward, Run!"   :)

However, I can't play Sinistar in MAME, unless I'm doing something totally wrong.  Perhaps there is a simple fix for this, but I guess I haven't looked hard enough to figure it out.  How do you keep the ship from constantly moving?  Maybe my memory isn't what it used to be, but I'm sure it wasn't like this on the original cab.  The constant moving makes it very difficult to play.  I thought I read somewhere once that AdvanceMAME had a fix for this auto-centering problem, but I have never taken the time to try it.  Is this a problem with the MAME driver, or is it something else?  Since the ship starts moving as soon as the game is started before I even touch the joystick, I'm guessing that just by using an analog stick won't fix it.

How are you guys playing it?  With AdvanceMAME, or something different?

Ryan

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2002, 12:26:21 am »
Oscar, the ship in Sinistar is supposed to be constantly moving. It is very difficult, I love it!
Bear Down!

OSCAR

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2002, 12:50:07 am »
Damn, I must be getting old.  The reflexs are slowing down...  :)

I figured by reading the analog suggestion here:  http://www.mameworld.net/mametesters/orange.html, that it was a keyboard problem.  Since I'm using an IPAC (keyboard), I was assuming the auto center comment meant that using an analog stick "fixed" it.

I can't seem to find the link anymore, but I swore that some build of MAME had an auto centering fix.  I thought is was AdvanceMAME, but I could be wrong.

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2002, 12:53:24 am »
Ahaha, found it!

http://www.retrogames.com/012001.html

I guess it is AdvanceMAME that fixes the centering problem with keyboards and keyboard encoders.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2002, 12:53:55 am by OSCAR »

brandon

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2002, 01:05:45 am »
I know this is getting off topic but did anybody make an interface for real 49-way sticks?  I have several in excellent shape on an Arch Rivals CP.  I dont know of any way to connect them to a PC and I dont have a PCB that uses them  either....  Oh well, maybe I should just sell them to somebody that really needs them.....

Xiaou2

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2002, 01:11:28 am »
 Hi Oscar,

   There really isnt a problem with the game.   Its just that the controller needs to be different.

 I just did a test with mame32, with a USB Thrustmapper Dual Power force feedback joypad.  Its very nice and works with mame beautifully... even for robotron.

 It works 'ok'  and dosnt drift like some other sticks.  You can however use the joystick deadzone adjuster to help with that.   Still, its not the same as the original...as its a lot harder to control without the propper resistence as noted in my several post.



 
   

Xiaou2

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #50 on: September 20, 2002, 01:14:00 am »
 Just a sidenote,  it may be interesting to have a real 49way encoder... but... the new 49way sticks are not the same as the sinistar joy.  Again, they ues the spings in the center, making the contol just as poor as a regular analog stick.


  Ohh.. and heres a closeup of the real deal:




This is the guy that makes the replacemnets

 http://www.enteract.com/~twisnion/spider.htm
« Last Edit: September 20, 2002, 01:17:38 am by Xiaou2 »

Xiaou2

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #51 on: September 20, 2002, 01:39:54 am »

Oscar, the ship in Sinistar is supposed to be constantly moving. It is very difficult, I love it!


No, you can stop.  you just need the joy to be Perfectly centered.

Playing with a keyboard isnt the answer either  : (

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2002, 01:52:25 am »
Its the same size as a happs trackball plate.


Really?  Looked big in the pics, nothing there for size ref.

Quote
A smaller, more efffective x shape, would reduce the size... although,  its not easy to come by such material.   The guy who makes a replacement for the real machines, wouldnt make one the would fit the shaft I was using... because it wasnt cost effective.


I understand what you're saying about the X shape now.  If you think about the fact that the vector of each "arm" of the X is changing as you stretch it, therefore giving more resistance in the direction of motion, makes perfect sense!  In the beginning, the bands are more perpendicular to the direction of movement, but as they extend, they are more parallel to the direction of movement.

Anyway, if the shaft you're using is too big to fit the replacement spiders, maybe you could drill a hole in the end of your plastic shaft, and insert a thinner metal rod to fit.

Free resource for building your own rotating control panels!

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Xiaou2

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2002, 02:27:31 am »
 
Hey 1up,

  Phew, someone finnaly got it   : )     I dont have the mechanical/mathmatical lingo or intelligence.   I can understand the principles... but thats about all I got.

 Anyway, funny you mentioned the metal pole.    My original stick wasnt hackable for that for some reason... I think the tube was too brittel.     On the next one tho, I did manage to ram a metal pole down there,  as the tube on this one was much stonger.   I may have even had to made a special adappter to take care of 'play'.    The stick I ended up hacking, was this:



Maybe it I had thought it over a bit more... I may have been able to use the real spider.  Unfortunately, I think the hole is still to small for the shaft I used.   The original sinistar joy has the spider on the bottom... but that wasnt possible cause the pots are down there... so I had to mount it above - just under the control panel, and before the main guts.   Also remember that the stick cant be too far down from the panel, as the length of the shaft will make a difference in feel, as well as needing a larger circluar top hole in the mounting plate.  

 Being that the metal pole has to be strong enough to withstand the abuse and strength of the bands working against them, I had to use a fairly dence width.   The original tapered the pole at the end... so its not possible to do that in reverse.  

  Maybe Oscar could work out a 'mass' buy deal and get the guy to make spiders with larger hole centers...?  

 

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2002, 02:29:07 am »


Oscar, the ship in Sinistar is supposed to be constantly moving. It is very difficult, I love it!


No, you can stop.  you just need the joy to be Perfectly centered.

Playing with a keyboard isnt the answer either  : (



I just ran sinistar (I've NEVER played it in my life).  The ship is always moving.


actually, I'd love to see a 49way somehow on a PC.  I have NFL Blitz for the PC, it would be cool to play that with arcade controls.

Xiaou2

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2002, 03:39:13 am »

No really, you CAN stop on a dime.  Your joy has to be perfect centered (and it must be analog). (try adjusting the deadzone, and decreasing sensativity)  I JUST ran the game and did it.  
(you also have to reverse the current momentum of the ship, so that its ballenced)

The reason, is that you have to be able to go slow and mine with accuracy, then speed up quickly to get away form the enemy.

 If you watch the previews, you can see how slow you can go.  Also, I was an avaid player of the original.  I know my game : )




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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2002, 04:05:20 am »



Dang.  I thought the possible new product you were teasing us with was a Star Wars yoke.     ;)

I was hoping that too !!!    8)


Just to add to the "me too" train... I was hoping it was a SW style yoke product as well...

*shrug* (not to discourage you from the ball top super replacement shafts... just would be more excited about a SW yolk) =)

rampy


Oh..yes a yoke!!! A metal one...I can dream... :D

peter

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2002, 05:09:13 am »


No really, you CAN stop on a dime.  Your joy has to be perfect centered (and it must be analog). (try adjusting the deadzone, and decreasing sensativity)  I JUST ran the game and did it.  
(you also have to reverse the current momentum of the ship, so that its ballenced)

The reason, is that you have to be able to go slow and mine with accuracy, then speed up quickly to get away form the enemy.

 If you watch the previews, you can see how slow you can go.  Also, I was an avaid player of the original.  I know my game : )







BUT I DON'T HAVE A JOYSTICK HOOKED UP!
The ship just starts moving, I don't push anything, what;s up with that???  Like oscar said.

Xiaou2

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2002, 06:23:43 am »
 
It has to do with the way mame sees the controls.  For a keyboard stoke, it makes the ship travel at maximum speed.   And for some odd reason, when you exit the game and restart it,  it remembers the last velocity setting.   If you erase the the ini files... it might start out perfectly still.

 I just tried it... I started a game, and the ship was motionless.  I pressed a keystroke, and it went at berzerk speed.  I escaped it, and restared.  The ship was moving at warp, and no keys were pressed.   I used the analog stick, to slow it and stop it.  I then restarted, and it was motionless again.

  Being that keyboards have no way to show acceleration, its impossible to control sinistar this way.  Some games use acceleration in them, so its ok... but sinistar takes the direct value of the stick, and 'makes it so'
 
  I believe the patch available, forces the values to return to perfect center when you let go of the key.  Not sure if they added a simulated acceleration and deceleration.   Even if they did... its not as true as the real analog controler, cause you litterally can stop immediately and accurately with good analog controls.

 



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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2002, 06:39:10 am »
Ahh, good.  Ryan made me think that I had lost my mind.  I knew that it was supposed to stop.

I believe that the auto centering feature of AdvanceMAME makes it do exactly that.  When you release a directional key, the ship stops.  This is so you can play the analog games with keyboard controls.  I don't know if the ship will drift like in Asteroids when the thrust is released, or if it stops immediately.  I haven't tried it in AdvanceMAME yet, but I'm going to this weekend if I get a chance.

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #60 on: September 20, 2002, 06:42:07 am »
Oh, and I also realize that playing without a true analog stick "just isn't the same", but at least it will be playable using a standard joystick through an IPAC.

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #61 on: September 20, 2002, 02:23:37 pm »

It has to do with the way mame sees the controls.  For a keyboard stoke, it makes the ship travel at maximum speed.   And for some odd reason, when you exit the game and restart it,  it remembers the last velocity setting.   If you erase the the ini files... it might start out perfectly still.


Nope it won't since I said

Quote
http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=2666

and
Quote
BUT I DON'T HAVE A JOYSTICK HOOKED UP!


So I guess I won't be able to.

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #62 on: September 20, 2002, 04:14:12 pm »
I have a couple of 49-way joysticks and the 'X" on the bottom is parallel with each joy axis.  so its not really an "X" if you think about it but more of a "+".  Xiaou2 maybe yours "X" needs to be rotated 45 degrees? just a thought...

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #63 on: September 20, 2002, 07:10:19 pm »

Heh... interesting.  Probably messed that up cause i dont have one, and because I couldnt find an adequate picture to see that at the time of build.

 Also, I believe when I put it together, I realized that I needed the maximum amount of length on each leg of the spider.   I was using some hard rubber tiedowns, and they didnt flex too much.  

 It seems to work good regardless tho.


 Thanks for the info.  Maybe I may try again sometime, and see if mounting it the other way feels ok.



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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2002, 07:19:26 am »
Oscar,
You might look into nickel plating instead of chrome. A little cheaper, and looks just as nice.
Just a suggestion in case you need *just a little more* to make it economically feasible. :)

K
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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2002, 12:03:09 pm »
I'm also looking into interfaceing a 49-way to the PC.

Here's the gameport pinouts.

http://www.technick.net/index.php?load_page=http%3A//www.technick.net/pinconjoy_pc_game.php

I'm not sure if I can rig up the 49-way as an anolog joystick and load a simple driver, then I can callibrate it.

Has anyone looked into this?

Looks like Mama raised a Mamer.

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2002, 02:51:31 am »
I am willing to bet that Arcade Renovations backed out of the tron repo handles because Happ Controls owns the rights to them would most certainly sue anybody who tries to reproduce them. Happ's 8-way heavyduty trigger stick uses the same exact handle except in black. They bought the Midway coinops department a couple of years ago so the only way we will ever see blue Tron triggerstick shells is if we convince Happ to start offering them in translucent blue. I have my doubts that we will be successfull though because for the most part Happ Controls is really only listening to the major arcade vendors since they are the ones who buy the majority of their product. I've already e-mailed them with this idea and also gave them the link to this website so they could see what types of products that we are all longing for and I received no responce either good or bad. I guess that leaves us to continue trolling Ebay for halfway decent used ones. :(
"Sinistar has bad breath"

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #67 on: December 14, 2002, 07:17:22 pm »
The original topic seems to have been forgotten about a bit - but I woul dlike the idea of a ball handle replacemnet for the Happ joysticks (I have the competitions).  I have 1 joystick using your 4-way restrictors dedicated for such games like PacMan - having a ball top would be great.

Doug

:) Rotate or die! :)

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #68 on: December 14, 2002, 10:53:39 pm »
To be honest, this possible product has been on the back burner.

The reason is:  After I started this thread, another individual has started fabricating balltop replacements for various joysticks, including the Happ Comp's.  They are frequently on eBay.  I seriously doubt I could beat his price on them, and he seems to be selling a quality product from what I've heard so far.

This niche appears to be filled for the time being, and I would rather spend my time looking into areas that are still lacking in solutions.  I think it would benefit more of us in the long run if I do that, rather than try to go into direct competition with another product.  I do have a couple more ideas up my sleeve for products that aren't currently available, and my plan is to concentrate more on those after the first of the year.

I do thank everyone that contributed their thoughts on this idea, and it seems that someone has stepped up to provide us with a solution.  That's the important thing, I think.  :)


spidermonkey

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #69 on: December 14, 2002, 10:55:30 pm »
If Kelsey is going to make them then should do it quickly. They're's a guy selling  bat to ball conversion shafts on Ebay like hotcakes. I bought a couple and I think Frostillicus bought a couple too. If I knew that Oscar was definately going to make them I surely would have waited and bought them from him and I'm sure Mr. Frost would have too. Not to say that just because he and I already bought them that their is no longer a market for them. (totally ridiculous) but if we got em then I'm sure alot of other cabinet builders have also. If he is going to make them then everybody should hold off and buy them from him. His will probably be of nicer quality anyway. I'm starting another cabinet in the Spring and if Oscar is makeing them then I'll be buying.
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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #70 on: December 14, 2002, 11:15:08 pm »
Point taken.  I apologize if anyone was "on the fence" waiting for me to produce these.

Before I could take on another product, I had to streamline my current products.  This is what really drove the recent spinner improvements, including the use of a common optic board.  The use of the new optic board alone has freed up much of my time already.

In the meantime, however, someone else started to fabricate these particular items.  I really wish I could move faster on these types of projects, but when trying to coordinate different vendors, order stock, answer emails, and process current orders all in a few hours every night after my real job, it doesn't leave much time for new product development.  Don't get me wrong, I love doing this stuff or else I wouldn't be doing it at all!  :)


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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2002, 12:04:34 am »
Sorry Oscar
Apparently I started writing my post before you but you finished your post before me. I wasn't beating a dead horse, I just hadn't read your 2nd to last post before I posted my last post. ;D    Uhh, I think I worded this correctlly. Now I'm confusing myself ???   Oh well, don't mind my rambling. :-[
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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #72 on: December 15, 2002, 09:45:44 am »
Oscar, it's a shame you have now decided not to sell ball top replacement handles, although I can understand your reasons why.

I've been keeping an eye on the handles being sold on Ebay and they look very promising. However the problem from my point of view is that the guy only seems to sell to the USA. Also his prices have been very erratic - sometimes cheap and other times very expensive especially for stainless steel handles. From memory I think one of his handles went for $30.

Also I wish someone would produce a ball top for the T-Stik which IMHO works better for early games.
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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2002, 05:47:04 pm »
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=749067910

$50 for 10 if this is what you're talking about.

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Re:Possible new product - Opinions please!
« Reply #74 on: December 18, 2002, 11:10:51 pm »
hey... that shaft looks pretty cool.... how much will it stick out if we're talking about 3/4 plywood and 1/8 lexan with just little bit routing ??
 ;)
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