Experience needed: How much to charge?

[Arcadiac]

I ran into a man today at the computer shop who wants a MAME machine for his gameroom.  What he wants from me is a refurbed cab, ready to play, less the computer.  Since he approached me I believe he is MAME savvy, so I want to strike a balance between making a few bux and getting him a quality machine for his gameroom.  
How do those of you who have done this for others give an estimate?  
I have most of the new parts needed on hand, got a bit carried away when ordering for my first cab.  So my time involved might be the biggest expense, the part he doesn't want to deal with.
I'm not looking to make a fortune on this but I also don't know anyone who works for strangers for free!!
While researching this with you guys I told him to get a wish list together of features that he would like and showed him my project so he would get some ideas.  He's in no hurry, the guy he talked to about it before never came thru, so I'm the guy now.
Any tips, experiences on working up an estimate would be helpful and much appreciated.  Thanks again!  ARCADIAC!

[AlanS17]

Does he want this thing decorated, too? Does he have a cab for you to work on or are you supplying that?

I'd say different features are worth different amounts of money. I'd wait for the request list and try to put together a realistic time estimate in man-hours. Then decide how much you want to charge per hour and tack that onto the price of parts.

It's not unfair to make a little (10%-15%) off of mark-up of parts, either. If he's MAME-savvy and wants to save money he could supply you with parts. But as the builder, you're the one making the orders as well as assembling. Also, don't forget to factor in the price of shipping all those parts to you wasn't free. Make you sure you at least mark up that much.

Once you have those numbers you can make an itemized list of costs. With such a broken down list, i think the guy would be less likely to try and work you down on the overall price. You throw one big number at him and he's going to try and work it down, but you give him a list and not only will he see where all the pricing is coming from, it'll be harder for to come down in price for any one thing because then you'll be doing some parts for free. Like you said, nobody works for free!

(Wow, that was a good idea. Maybe I should be in sales...)

[AlanS17]

Oh and don't be afraid to tack on a little extra for know-how. People take their car to a mechanic or call a plumber because they don't know how to do it themselves. There's mark-up in that. Do go over board, but you can factor that into your labor estimate.

I'd also get online and look at prices on pre-built cabinets. Some of those things are unreasonably high so don't shoot for the moon, but you could start there. Some of those companies have over 100% mark-up on parts and charge twice as much as they should for labor.

This guy did approach you, though. Don't take advantage of him, but realize he wants this done. If you're reasonable he'll go with it.

[AlanS17]

Oh yeah one other thing... don't underestimate your man-hours. That means you'll eventually have to charge him more (which he won't like) or start working for free (which you won't like). Don't promise him a short turn-around time with only a few man-hours to get the bid. It's not like he has other offers. If it's going to take 30 or 40 (or however many) man-hours, tell him that. If you've done a cabinet before then you can get a good idea. Also keep in mind that when people pay for something they want something good. So tack in a few hours for finishing touches. Ok that's really everything this time (I hope).

[Arcadiac]

Thanks Alan, we talked about side art etc., and realizing that can drive the price up dramatically he said he could do without it.  I have a cab, gutted Space Ace, decent shape cosmetically, I may not even have to paint it or replace the t-molding.
Got $50 in it so there wil have to be a little markup on it.
Cabs are very scarce here in KY, so I grab 'em up whenever I can!  Yeah I need the wish list, I got too many questions about type of joysticks, the marquee etc.  Him providing the computer himself should take a load off tho'.  Assuming he is savvy enough to copy the roms and setup MAME, if not I may have to factor that time in too!  Should I charge for roms? I have to find a burner and pay them and then make a copy for him.  More research needed definitely.  Keep the tips coming all and Thanks!  ARCADIAC!

[Thenasty]

do you  the guy pretty good ? Be carefull about charging ANY SOFTWARE/ROMS, he might turned around and sue (if you don't know him that well). for selling him MAME or ROMS unless you get them LEGALLY. Just my .02 cents.

[pointdablame]

If I were you, I'd cover my behind and not even get him any roms.  let him deal with that.  Explain the legalities to him, and where he might be able to get some if he so chose, but nothing more.

Just my .02

[DrewKaree]

There are two ideas listed here that should be your starting point.  The first:

If I were you, I'd cover my behind and not even get him any roms.  let him deal with that.  Explain the legalities to him, and where he might be able to get some if he so chose, but nothing more.

You simply cannot open yourself up to doing everything for the guy, otherwise you will end up pissing away anything you make in the "little details he never mentioned he wanted.

and the second

I say charge him by the hour, the same that you make at work.

while you may think this to be unreasonable (depending on what you make at work) this can be used as a rough gauge as to what you SHOULD charge for labor/skillz.  To wit - you are taking your free time to do this for him.  You are taking time away from doing something else.  He is unwilling/unable to do the same thing.  If HIS time (and I don't mean this in a mean way) is so valuable or he lacks the skills/abilities to do this, then clearly he should expect to pay what you feel your time is worth, or else do it himself.

As stated before, find out the details, and work out a (semi) contract - you already have some of the materials, so you don't need payment for that, but DO get advance payment for what you are going to need.  Wood, paint/laminate, t-molding, and wire, I would charge an up-front fee of 50%, with the remainder due either BEFORE or ON delivery.  

I'll work on how I'd do it, and add it to this thread shortly.

[Darkstalker]

     The biggest advice I can offer: Document everything before you start building!  Sit down and plan out EXACTLY what he wants.  Go over the fact that you are converting a cab you already own (He may want a hand built one and pay the extra money), cover the T&M costs, artwork (with pictures), and get it all down on paper.  Then have him SIGN it with a down payment if you don't trust the deal.  You can always make him pay for most of the parts up front, and the labor afterwards.  
     This way a week into building if he says "Oh, I really wanted this and this, not this" you can say:  "Well, that's not in the original order, but I can make those changes for <blank> more since that involves making a new panel."  That's what's called "feature creep" in the PSO world.  Count on it, because it will most likely happen.
     Unless you are really experienced with building/converting MAME cabinets you might want to shave off some "learning curve" time, and charge what you think is fair.  One of the best first questions to ask is: "How much are you looking to spend?"  If they say $400, you know not to waste your time.  You might want to give a ceiling value too, just so he knows MAME cabinets can get pricey depending on how many bells and whistles he wants on it.  Give him a quote that you think is fair and if he balks at it, you're only out the time it took to put the quote together.

You simply cannot open yourself up to doing everything for the guy, otherwise you will end up pissing away anything you make in the "little details he never mentioned he wanted.

     You can, just so long as you cover them all before you get started and charge accordingly.  Changing things after the fact just costs more money for him.  You'd be surprised how quick a wish list will shrink when T&M are applied to it  
     Since you aren't including a computer, you may want to do the nice thing and give him some MAME config files and some instructions to use since he won't know how you programmed the encoder.  Either that, or he can supply the computer later down the line and you can install and configure MAME on it for him.  Play dumb when it comes to ROMs though, or point out the commercial sets available like starroms.com or the Capcom series.

[DrewKaree]

First off, you will be finding out his wishes.  

Break them down to what it will mean for you to - a)get the parts b)cost of parts

I would add 50% to small parts (meaning buttons/wire - remember, you have to pay shipping as well, recoup your money on that)

I would add 20% to any other parts (joys, ipac, t-molding, lighting, tv/monitor, trackball, spinner, etc.  This is for parts needed to PLAY, not build, the cab) this would add ~$8-20 depending on the part.

Figure out the highest price you've paid for a cab...will you find one for that price again, or cheaper?  If so, then charge that price.  Remember, you traveled to get them and lug them back to your house, hence the extra, otherwise you may end up blowing any money made (or spending your OWN cha-ching!)

If he wants plexi for a marquee or CPO, charge double the price for what you need.  This will allow you SOME reduction in stress, because you can make ONE mistake.  If you do not make a mistake, give him the money back (or drop the price accordingly) at the end of the transaction, if you feel so inclined.

I would charge a minimum of $50 for your tools.  This one is simple.  You have them, you already paid for them.  The wear and tear, bits, blades, taxes, whatever else involved in the cost of purchasing your tools...it's simple - he doesn't/won't be using his stuff, your stuff is costly to purchase, outfit, and replace if something happens.

After finding out what his wants are, how much time do you think it will take for you to build it?  Now that you have that figure in mind, treat it like you are building a house - cost x 1.5.  Hours figured x 1.5 = x.  Minimum wage is ~$5.50.  If you make $20/hr @ work, split the difference between those two figures (i.e. ~12-13/hr) if you feel so inclined.  Myself, if I can't make $50/hr on a side job, I'm not willing to do it, because the headaches aren't worth chicken feed money.  I do remodels (kitchen/basement/bathroom) on the side with union workers (in-laws), and even at THAT price, it's less than they'd spend on a contractor!  YOU HAVE SKILLS - they warrant you charging a decent amount for your knowledge, and you'll make a product he isn't willing/capable of producing.  

I would factor in the B.S. hours (where'd I put that friggen pencil?  Dammit, where are my wire crimpers!  How do I wire up this trackball?) because those things either are never figured into the total, or he may want parts you've never dealt with before.  

How many hours do I think you should charge for?  Cutting wood - 1 hour.  Running wire - 1 hour.  Paint/laminate - 1 hour.  Glue/Screw/Nail carcase together - 1 hour.  Detail work - 1 hour.  B.S. work - 1 hour.  Total hours 6 x 1.5 = 9 hours.

Multiplied by $20/hr = $180.  Is this too low?  In my opinion it is, but I take on side jobs with a minimum bid of me making $50/hour (remember, I have certain skills a customer wants.  Either they're willing to pay for them, or they're willing to use their own $5.50/hr skills.  This way, I'm only doing jobs that are worth my time.  BELIEVE ME, there's a WORLD of difference between the two jobs, and it DOESN'T take a skilled person to notice the difference!  That would make my price for labor alone $450, but in the end, his cab will end up costing him ~$7-900.  How much do you estimate YOUR cab cost you?  Would you sell it for that price, or is it worth more than that?  I'll tell you what, you'll find mame machines selling for about that at the auctions I've gone to!  Last one I went to, a mame machine sold for $1300!  All because you have the skills.  

I get the feeling that you are a bit nervous to overcharge for this.  If this is true, consider this one thing.  If you were to remove the computer from your cab, how much would you charge for it?  Ultimately, that's the price you should charge for making a cab, plus a %15 markup for having the cab completed.  

Good luck with your experience, and fill us in on what you choose to do and how it all works out.

[DougHillman]

The responses here so far have been great.  I'm mostly just gonna reiterate what others have said.

First off, give him a preliminary proposal breaking down the costs and possible options.  I've got one that's the starting point for any cabinets I build.  Was gonna post it earlier, but then had to head out and do some finishing setup work on a cabinet and now I'm not at home with access to it.  I'll get it posted here tomorrow.  Anyways, I break stuff down into the major components and list any possible upgrades.

Usually a flat fee for the cabinet materials which runs ~ $200.00  That includes all wood, fasteners, paint, marquee acrylic & backlight, T-molding, etc.  Probably a good 50 - 75% higher than my actual costs.

Controls are listed for a basic 4/8-way switchable 2-Player 6/7 button layout with an I-Pac.  Optional 3 & 4 player controls, trackballs, spinners, etc are listed with their corresponding price.  I typically don't charge much (if any) over actual cost for the controls.  

List the price of various TV / monitor options.

If the computer isn't supplied, current market prices for a decently powerful system is listed with the notation that a computer that would play some of the newer games will require an additional cost while one built soley for the classics will be less.  When you're pricing a system, remember everything that's involved if you're not buying one already assembled.  You'll need motherboard, processor, memory, hard drive, video card, power supply and (unless you're gonna gonna leave the custome without any self-upgrading options) keyboard, mouse, & CD-rom drive.  

Artwork design can get expensive.  I offer some generic stuff for essentially the cost of printing, but custom work is gonna be more costly.  I've got little in the way of artistic deisgn skills, so this gets subcontracted out to my girlfriend.  And she's not cheap.    

Finally my design/construction/setup fees work out to about $20-$25 an hour.  I've typically charged right around $500 for my fees.  Realistically, I shortchange myself here as I've only ever built custom cabs from scratch (instead of converting an existing cabinet) and spend alot of time in the design phase.  I find it enjoyable though, so I really don't charge for more than a coupla hours design time.  Setup time is probably also more actual time than I charge for, but that's including stuff like installing the OS on the computer and whatnot.  I'm always working on stuff of my own while that's going on in the background.    I also state that the cabinet will be delivered and set up in a fully working condition.   Any service/upgrades that are required after I leave the first day are charged at $25 an hour plus travel expenses (unless there's something wrong that's my fault.)  




I'll get the prospective customer this preliminary proposal along with some 3D renders and pictures of cabs I've built.  As well as a list of games with control needs that aren't covered by the basic 2P/6 button layout.   I'll then schedule a sit-down with them (preferrably at their place so I can get measurements and such) and discuss their needs/wants in detail.  Hafta have 4-Players for Gauntlet?  Love Missle Command?  HAVE to roll some two-player Marble Madness?  Want an old school cabinet where the CP doesn't extend past the edges?  Space restrictions?   What's the desired delivery date?  Is that feasible?  Will the client be providing any of the necessary parts (computer?  TV?  controls?)?


All of this results in a official contract and has to be hashed out ahead of time.  If changes are made along the way, they should be documented and signed off on by both parties as well.   I do this for every job I ever do, even for friends.  It's the best way to remain friends.  Makes sure you both know exactly where things stand.  (I'm not so uptight with my closest friends, but anyone who's a casual friend or less calls for a formal agreement.)

FWIW, every cabinet I've built from scratch has ended up costing the client in the realm of $1,500.00 US.  

A few words of advice.  If you have a specific delivery date, allow a coupla days cushion.  Don't expect to be slapping the thing together and delivering it that afternoon.  Invariably, there's a setup problem with the computer.  (I spent 2 weeks hashing out problems on the last one I built due to using an existing computer that I couldn't format and do a fresh install on.  Just as I got it all straightened out, the client decides to go ahead and buy new components for me to assemble him a more powerful one.  Got it thrown together with a fresh Win 98 install and everything set up nicely overnight.  Took it out and replaced the existing system with it this afternoon.  I forgot the S-video to RCA adapter that I needed, so I decided to swap in the card from the old system for the time being.  Unfortunatly, loading the drivers for the replacemement card crapped the whole system.  So now he's without it for a few days until I can get home & rebuild it again.)  Or there's a bad controller (This same cabinet has a faulty I-Pac4.  The P1-B2 input started going spotty immediately after assembly and eventually quit alltogether.  Not a devastating problem, as I had some spare input slots open and just moved the wire & reprogrammed the I-Pac, but it could have caused alot more trouble than it did.)  Or you've run out of wire after the stores have closed.  Unexpected delays are probably more the norm than the exception with projects such as these.  

Good luck.

[Arcadiac]

Thanks all, the most basic question and answer I've gotten here so far that I haven't asked yet is how much is the client expecting to spend.  
My first cab, errors included, came in at well over $1200, including ~$400 for a pre-built computer.  
And that's not including my time which of course will be somewhat less because of what I learned. If I was to remove the Pc and sell the cab that way, monitor included, I wouldn't take less than $2000 for it.
Probably wouldn't get that much for it but thats what its worth to me.  With experience, I know it will not cost nearly as much to build this next one but, wow there is still a lot of time and effort involved, even in a conversion job.  
What I offered in my very basic, no prices included proposal/questionnaire was a 2p cp, 6 button, 1 4/8 way tstick plus, 1 standard arcade 8 way stick w/vinyl cp overlay, classic or custom marquee options, glass or plexi monitor glass, basic black bezel, no sideart, cosmetic coin door, no mechs, KDS 21" Pixeltouch monitor from CSO in a ready to add pc black box cabinet conversion, a Space Ace cab I bought recently.  Its a solid cab, needs very little wood repair and I may be able to just use the t-molding thats on it, its pretty clean.
So figuring out my hourly labor rate is the next part.  I have never personally made more than $10 hr. having basic skills, a little college and metal fabrication type factory work.  
So when I go to for example a PC repair shop and they mention $40-50 an hour for labor it freaks me out and I feel kinda ripped off.  
But then reality sets in.  These guys have the training, skills, facilities etc. to do the job properly.
So they are providing a service that I need for the going rate, a rate that they have earned through hours of hard work and education.
Having said all that, and feelings aside, I deserve to be compensated for even my limited experience.  Does $20-25 an hr for the labor sound reasonable to you guys?  
I completely understand that buying pre-built cabs are expensive, that's why I built my own.
Hopefully using your experience and help I can make this an equitable project for all concerned.
DougHillman if you don't mind sharing that starting proposal with us it would sure be a helpful starting place.  I also have never worked with contracts so anyone who has a basic one geared towards this type of work/proposal, please share it with us too.
I am in no hurry to rush this deal, thats why I have all these questions/reservations before starting.
One last question, why do I feel leery about asking for 50% up front?  Experience please!  Thanks All, ARCADIAC!

[RayB]

Arcadiac, you're confusing two kinds of labor costs which are kind of like apples and oranges. There's labor involved in building something and then there's labor for short services like PC repair and auto repair.

Services with high hourly rates like for PC repair are for short jobs. That's why they charge so high. The rates balance out times when they have nothing to do with times when they are working. It also is supposed to help cover costs of their rent, their bills, their receptionist, etc. The person actually doing the work to fix your PC doesn't get the $50 per hour. He probably get's $20 to $25 or even less.

AND the rate is high because the repair jobs typically take only a couple hours.

So keep this in mind. What's your overhead? And how many hours are you going to invest. If it takes you 40 hours of labor, I'd say $50/hr is probably too much for labor alone.

Ray B.

[Darkstalker]

One last question, why do I feel leery about asking for 50% up front?  Experience please!  

I don't know, it isn't an odd request.  Since you aren't in buisness for yourself doing this full time, it's not unreasonable at all for him to at least cover parts cost plus maybe a little extra.  Just be upfront and honest, you can't float the part money until the project is done.  That way if he won't be likely to bail part way through.  What's got me wondering is why the last person fell through, what happened?

I'd suggest estimating the total time you're gonna need to build the cab and bill a flat rate.  Guess high though, because it's really hard to charge more later.  You mentioned $2000 for your cab, and that doesn't sound unreasonable compared to what some charge.  Maybe pad it a little at $2200 and go with that.

[DrewKaree]

You feel leery because you don't do this for a living, you feel as if your skills aren't first rate....I can't help you with that one, it's just something you feel...you've done one already, though, so get over those AND QUICK    

You REALLY do have skills.  If you didn't, he wouldn't still be interested.

Also, perhaps it's because when you go to the mechanic to get your car fixed, they hand you a bill at the end of the transaction (or other service oriented transactions).  You are NOT in the same position - what will happen if he stiffs you on paying?  Will your rent money be tied up in buttons, joysticks, and t-molding?  Will you want to keep these parts around if he fails to pay, and can you afford to keep them?  

I find it the best way to do business...charge up front for your materials, that way, if you get stiffed, all you're out is your time, which IS valuable, but you haven't spent a dime out of your own pocket.  

Once you get some experience in, you won't feel bad getting a 75% deposit upfront  

I'd tell the guy (now, by the way, to feel him out) that you're working on a contract, and when it's done, you two can get together and go over the details....then, as Doug said, have some set prices, and some options available and priced.

Oh, and something else....when asking him his wishes, silence on your part and listening will SAVE YOU when you're tempted to open your mouth and promise the world only to find out later you spoke too soon  

[DougHillman]

DrewKaree's right on the spot here.  You need to ask for the cash to cover most (if not all) of your out of pocket expenses up front.  That way, if you're stiffed at least you've got the stuff to sell and it's not gonna leave you broke.  I typically require like $500 to start.  Most of the folks I've built a cabinet for so far really don't have the funds to be dropping $1500 in one blow, so it works out well for them anyways.  A deposit up front gets me going and pays for much of the cabinet hardware and probably most of the controls.  As the project starts to come together the money for the rest of the stuff (computer, TV, marquee printing) can come from later paychecks.  The final payment is made upon delivery.

An official contract can help prevent problems, but resorting to legal means can be avioded alltogther if you just get $$$ up front.

I've attached the proposal I whipped up for my buddy Dave & his girlfriend Jeni.  Change the .txt extension back to .doc and open it in Word for (hopefully at least close to) proper formatting.  

[Arcadiac]

Thanks a bunch to all, DrewKaree, RayB, Alan, Thenasty and especially Doug for the proposal.  

Doug the proposal looked great except when getting to the details in the price list.  The prices showed up but what they were for was left out.  

Thanks for the encouragement, I know with the proper motivation and proposal in hand I can get this done.  

I'm still waiting for a reply from my first email proposal so I will keep you posted as this progresses, probably make a  project announcement when/if its a go.  

Again thanks all, your experience is invaluable and I appreciate every bit.  ARCADIAC!  

BTW, we had a death in the family, my sons remaining grandmother, my ex-mother-in-law, so we wil be dealing with that for the next couple of days.  My Mom died last year and now another great lady gone, both moms/grandmas in less than two years.  Those so inclined please send out a prayer for him, his name is Kevin.  He is the young man play-testing cabs in some of my threads.
Thanks again, Ron H.

[DougHillman]

Here's a Rich Text Format version.  change the .txt extension to .rtf to view.  Donno why the first one didn't work.  

Do you have MS Word?  Windows Wordpad won't have the right formatting.

D

[DrewKaree]

Doug, I cleaned off the figures and neatened it up a bit, hope you don't mind.  EXCELLENT, by the way...how long did it take for you to get to the current iteration of that contract?