Arcade games that don't work without actual money credits.

[EssexMame]

After reading the "Arcade games everyone likes...except you" thread - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,149719.0.html it got me thinking.

A game mentioned more than once - Gauntlet - WAS great in the arcade, at the time, but I also can't help agreeing on comments there regarding it's lack of appeal now.

I played it a lot in the arcade, or at least as my limited funds allowed in the 80's. You had an incentive to stay alive and progress, because if you didn't it would cost you another 10p to play on. Simple really. That is lost now, we just press our "add coins" button and continue as we were. It worked in the arcade, it doesn't on free play at home. Even with a coin operated machine, we can just empty/reinsert the cash as needed.

The computer/console versions worked too as, even playing 2 player, if you died close together you couldn't continue as the game ended - you needed player 2 to still be alive to be able to continue. It was ruined from the point I played it 4 player (Amiga? Sega Master System?) and therefore it just went on and on and on..... No benefit or excitement from progress.

Consoles/computers got around this problem with limited credit/continues. I remember Bad Dudes vs the Dragon Ninja on the Amiga being great as it had just enough to make progress possible without making completion easy. Now, Bad Dudes in Mame is just pointless - as long as you have enough money (i.e. hit add credit multiple times) you can make easy progress.

In a similar way, I've never enjoyed "gambling" (fruit machine, card) games on computers where the only money is virtual. Gambling works for the thrill of winning cash and they never worked as a game for me. That said, I'm not a massive fan of them even when money IS involved so perhaps that's just me...

So, are there any other arcade games with this problem? They were great at the time, but just don't work on a free play arcade cabinet, or indeed a console, computer, or mobile phone?

[lilshawn]

Smash T.V. was like this too. it's super high paced and easy to die...but with infinite continues... you don't even try to stay alive since you'll just respawn right back into the action again.

at least the console ports of smash tv limited the number of continues (3 or 5 depending on settings) to try and fix this issue and made the game actually pretty hard to beat.

Stun runner was another game where infinite continues can get you to the end of the game no problem... no trying involved. at least in the arcade you'd get a big dump of quarters for people playing to get the shirt.

[JimmyU]

Generally, I don't mind pumping in virtual quarters into a game if there's an end to the game like Smash TV and Beat 'em ups. Yes, it takes more skill to make it through on just a few quarters, but think of it as a high score to beat the game with the lowest amount of quarters. Gauntlet is fun for about 10 minutes before it gets monotonous. The original Gauntlet for the NES was actually pretty good since the developers expanded on Gauntlet's gameplay and added features like permanent power-ups, a password system and finally, an actual ending after 100 levels.

[DeLuSioNal29]

Some shmups have it so that although it has unlimited continues, if you lose all lives on the final level it will take you back to the beginning of the level.  Makes it WAY harder to keep pumping in credits and easily finish the game (I think Aero Fighters does this but I can't recall at the moment).

I have series I'm doing on Youtube called "Last Credit" which kind of addresses this issue.  The theme of the series is:  You are at an arcade and you only have 1 quarter left to play.  What game do you choose?  It totally changes the way you play the game since you can't continue or add credits.



Delusional29

[romshark]

Most run-and-guns and beat-em-ups suffer from this too. Anyone can beat TMNT or Metal Slug X this way.

Some Konami games (I believe Contra, Top Gunner, Haunted Castle) limit the number of continues.

When I play fighting games on single player mode (Street Fighter II, Guilty Gear X), I never continue. I start over again (or go do something else.)

A few years back, I did try to beat some games on as few credits as I could as a challenge (having a real coin door helps me keep track.) I beat TMNT in $4.00. Turtles In Time took $5.50. (Default settings on both).

[lilshawn]

i can't off the top of my head name any but some fighting and shmups games started giving special weapons, endings, secret characters and whatnot, for not using a continue or even going so far as to not lose or die or whatever (one life)...to get the special thing.

It sort of pushed some players to become better instead of just dumping more money in...but as a side effect... actually bringing in more money.

I think these game designers sort of seen that trend of "buying their way to the end" and changed the games to offer an incentive.

[romshark]

Wow, getting special endings, extra characters, and such through effort instead of buying it (DLC.) But that's another argument thats been done to death already.
I think the most famous one I've heard of was actually an April Fools joke to unlock Ryu's master in Street Fighter II. No real reward, but it sure brought in the money.

[thomas_surles]

I like how they did final fight on the snes. Run out of continues start over. that is how most older console games were. That kept us playing. We would progress a little further each time until that glorious day we finally beat the game.

[DeLuSioNal29]

I like how they did final fight on the snes. Run out of continues start over. that is how most older console games were. That kept us playing. We would progress a little further each time until that glorious day we finally beat the game.

This is cool, but it bugged me when I found out for the first time that there was a limited amount of continues.  Sometime I'd get killed on the first level and "use up a continue" without knowing they were limited.  I wish there were a way they could have had something there that said, "using 1 of 3" or similar.  I get the overall concept though.  "Once I learned" I was fine, but that initial continue run... Pissed me off as a kid.  LOL.

:-)

D

[WakiMiko]

Some shmups have it so that although it has unlimited continues, if you lose all lives on the final level it will take you back to the beginning of the level.  Makes it WAY harder to keep pumping in credits and easily finish the game (I think Aero Fighters does this but I can't recall at the moment).

A lot of shmups also have a True Last Boss and/or a Second Loop that can only be reached when playing without continues.

[Thenasty]

if you want all the games to be limited, just disable the credits and have a default of 10 credits (change it to whatever is desired) already to use, thats it. 


There are lots of ways to do this (think about  it). I'm not going to explain this part. 

[paigeoliver]

Here is what happens when you put a Gauntlet with credit buttons at an arcade event. Within 10 minutes of the doors opening there will be 10,000 life on all 4 dudes and the game will remain unplayable all day long as people will walk up put some life on a dude that is already playing, be unable to play because the other players are not present and then they will walk away.

[leapinlew]

Ghost and Goblins/Ghouls and ghosts did it right. Starting over at the beginning of a level - that's good stuff right there.

Yup, good, nerve racking, pissed off good stuff.

[EssexMame]

Smash T.V. was like this too. it's super high paced and easy to die...but with infinite continues... you don't even try to stay alive since you'll just respawn right back into the action again.

at least the console ports of smash tv limited the number of continues (3 or 5 depending on settings) to try and fix this issue and made the game actually pretty hard to beat.

Yes, I found that  too. I think console/computer ports limited continues for exactly that reason most of the time - like lives essentially. Bad Dudes as I mentioned was like that too. I guess the key then was how many continues they gave you. Too many and it was easy and too few and it was hard. Essentially how they set the games difficulty level I guess.

It would be good to be able to set this on Arcades (some do it seems as mentioned above and others make you start the level again).

[EssexMame]

if you want all the games to be limited, just disable the credits and have a default of 10 credits (change it to whatever is desired) already to use, thats it. 


There are lots of ways to do this (think about  it). I'm not going to explain this part. 

Go on - please explain!! It is exactly what I want :-)

I can think of doing it by pressing "add credit" x 10 at the start and not allowing yourself to touch it during play. I can think of a coin operated one and having 10 coins and adding until they are all gone as you play. BUT how do you avoid temptation to add an 11th to complete that tiny little bit  left in the game, or to "go just a little further to see what it is like"? It takes a lot of willpower not to continue to the new parts over restarting at level 1 where you've been 100's of times...

I'm guessing something in the mame.cfg can set credits to 10 on startup? But what of the second (and third) plays? Escape to exit and restart??

[pbj]

Here is what happens when you put a Gauntlet with credit buttons at an arcade event. Within 10 minutes of the doors opening there will be 10,000 life on all 4 dudes and the game will remain unplayable all day long as people will walk up put some life on a dude that is already playing, be unable to play because the other players are not present and then they will walk away.

There will also be some weird collector standing in the corner and glaring at the Gauntlet machine all day rather than enjoying himself.

[yotsuya]

When I was a kid, I loved Gauntlet. But as a collector, when I look at it with a critical eye, you lose health every second just standing there. So no matter how good you are, you're eventually going to run out. Let's not kid ourselves, the whole point behind Gauntlet  is to get you to put another quarter in the machine.

[leapinlew]

So no matter how good you are, you're eventually going to run out.

I read this good breakdown of how to play forever at Gauntlet on a quarter. The trick was to only play the levels where you could end the level with more health than you started and on levels that were very dangerous to your health - you would wait till the walls turned to exits.

[jtslade]

There was a definite psychological impact in our youth to deciding to spend our hard earned quarters on any arcade game.. It meant more and the experienced was enhanced by it..

So at the next big arcade event all of the games that are ruined on free play should be setup as normal and put in the charity room. They take quarters and all the money is donated to kids with cancer or starving orphans or something.

Going to all the trouble to bring back the classic arcade feeling and missing out on a big part of it


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[Xiaou2]

 Ghouls and Ghost was an interesting one... because even though you could keep buying in to continue... you still had a Really difficult time beating its levels.   Starting each level from the beginning worked well for this game... but not so much on other games... such as "R-Type".

 With R-Type, and many other poorly balanced shooters...  once you lose your powerful weapons,  and get placed at the beginning of a nightmare tough level  (that was designed to be challenging with a powerful weapon)... it can be nearly impossible to get past them.

 I really LOVE what they did with the Sega Genesis shump  "ThunderForce II"...

 If you die,  the screen still continues to scroll.. and places your next ship on screen, partially invincible for a moment.   No restarting levels from the beginning... so you keep the flow and difficulty balanced.

  The game gives you a set number of continues...   I believe 3.   And you can choose to start out with 5? ships per set.

 If you are not that good... you can blow through all 5 guys on a single level.   Or maybe lose 3 on one level... then 2 on the next.
This allows you to see and experience the levels far more deeply than other shooters...   and yet,  if you are not skilled enough, you will not be able to get past a certain stage due to using up all of your continues.

 The game has 3 difficulty levels... but,  you can only beat the game on hard mode I think.  The easy mode will only let you play maybe half of the games levels.   The med. mode I believe will let you see everything except the final level or two.

 The game also has a hidden options menu:  A+B+C+Start    And you can choose to start on any of the first 5 or 6 levels.   This helps when you want to practice certain levels..  and or if you want to skip the first few levels.... to try to beat the game with a bit less time and challenge.

 It took me some time to beat the game, and to date, I only beat it from skipping the first few levels.  Its my favorite Shump hands down.
 One day I vow to try to beat it without skipping any of the levels.

 Also, Id love to try my hand at beating the X68000 port too.

 (The Genesis version has less graphical detail,  and fewer stages.  However, the Genesis version altered one of the end stage bosses to be far more difficult to beat than the x68000 boss.   That was probably to make up for having less levels in total.   My god, that boss was nearly impossible!   I had to sort of cheat.. hitting the start (pause) button rapidly on and off,  creating my own version of slow-motion, while playing, at the same time... and even then.. I still had trouble beating it!   heh    )

 Side note... that a lot of people didnt like TFII because of the Top view stages.  Personally, I liked the variation they provided... though I admit, they were a little flawed.   The biggest problem with them... besides getting lost trying to find the bases...  was that I, and many others...  didnt realize that you had to be in a certain range to hit the bases targets.   I did not notice that you shoot two kinds of weapons out of your craft at once... 1) Typical Air Weapons to take out air-based attackers...  and  2)  Bombs,   to take out the base turrets and bases.

 The bomb graphics are like small circles...   and not quite intuitive to how a bomb typically would look.. plus they were masked in with your typical fire... so unless you actually read the manual... you probably didnt know you had bombs... and wondered why it was so difficult to hit the base targets accurately.


---  Continues,  Value,  Challenge,  and Skills  ---


 Overall, I was never a big fan of Arcade based continue games.   They typically tended to be "Cheap",  making it nearly impossible to survive in certain areas, just to eat your money.   It also gave far less a feeling of accomplishment when you "won".     

 Its like buying a Black Belt... rather than going to class, gaining skills, getting beat down, and then eventually, winning matches. 
When its bought, rather than earned... it becomes a meaningless and hollow victory.  IMO, this is one of the main reasons, that the arcade industry fell.

 
 The Elder games kicked your butt,   ...But that only made you want to try to get better, to get deeper into the games levels.


 ---  Coin Psychology ---


 I also agree that putting in actual coins is a special thing.  In a way, it is like a miniature form of Gambling.  Your coins were precious, and in most cases, in limited quantities.   Each quarter,  you were gambling your coins for longer life... or essentially, longer entertainment duration.

 Because the coins were limited... each life you had, was treated with Far more serious intent.  You focused was amplified, as were your emotions.  Actual Adrenalin came into play.  It was almost as if you were actually the character,  fighting for real.


 As a kid, it was also kind of special... because it made you feel like an adult.  You were given your own money... and could choose how and where to spend it.   A power that kids do not often have access too.

 This is why games like Monopoly still hold such captivation with kids.  The power to earn and wield currency.

[EssexMame]

---  Coin Psychology ---

Your coins were precious, and in most cases, in limited quantities.   Each quarter,  you were gambling your coins for longer life... or essentially, longer entertainment duration.

 Because the coins were limited... each life you had, was treated with Far more serious intent.  You focused was amplified, as were your emotions.  Actual Adrenalin came into play.  It was almost as if you were actually the character,  fighting for real.

 As a kid, it was also kind of special... because it made you feel like an adult.  You were given your own money... and could choose how and where to spend it.   A power that kids do not often have access too.

 This is why games like Monopoly still hold such captivation with kids.  The power to earn and wield currency.

This, exactly! When in an arcade as a kid it was normally at the seaside. I was given some money to change up and spend on what games I wanted, when. I may manage to get more but that would depend on whether Mum & Dad were bored waiting by then. Other times were a short-lived local arcade where it would be a trip out with mates (pre-beer drinking) on what little pocket money I'd saved. ALWAYS limited funds and what games you chose mattered. Really mattered. The games you'd played before and could last longer on vs. the new (and more expensive in terms of the fancy hydraulic cabinets) for a shorter, higher thrill and the gamble of maybe getting better and lasting longer at it.

Of course, this is how arcades worked really. They tempted you to the more expensive, quicker games to drain your funds as quickly as possible. That doesn't work as well in our homes on free play where we decide how long it lasts. I've discovered how short some of these games are and can be completed on just a few (free) coins.  I think that is why some of the older games work better now. They weren't so designed/tweaked towards the coin entry as it was all so new. They all had almost infinite play meaning players soon could hog a machine for hours on 10p and that had to change!

[Scassidy24]

I really enjoy the feeling of trying to get as far as I can on as few credits as possible. Like someone had mentioned earlier it's like your high score in credits spent.   When we were kids playing TMNT at the hotel arcade on vacation,   We all shared our limited number of quarters so doing better on fewer quarters allowed me to share mine when my brother or friends ran out.  And that meant getting farther than we did before.   Before we all ran out of quarters and went loitering around our parents for more vacation arcade funding


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[Scassidy24]

That's why my cabinet must have a coin door. And probably limit ourselves to how many coins we each get before starting a game.  Trying to relive the past


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[paigeoliver]

That's why my cabinet must have a coin door. And probably limit ourselves to how many coins we each get before starting a game.  Trying to relive the past


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On games I own I generally won't ever continue.

[DeLuSioNal29]

I just removed the continue feature on my Thunderblade using DIPs.  It was WAY to easy otherwise.   

[Cynicaster]

Let's not kid ourselves, the whole point behind Gauntlet  is to get you to put another quarter in the machine.

That's the point of every coin-op game ever.  I think we all accept that, though; the concept of paying a quarter in exchange for a blast of entertainment.  But many of the late 80s and early 90s games took it a bit too far. 

When I first started playing Donkey Kong and Asteroids (for example) my games would last about 2 minutes if I was lucky.  With practice I would gradually get better, learn some tricks, earn the extra lives, and now I can play for 20-30 minutes on a credit.  Even now, the more I play, the better I get. 

In contrast, you look at the "continues-era" of arcades--especially the multi-player explosion--and the games just get silly.  You'll be standing there with 2-3 friends smashing buttons mindlessly trying to beat a boss, and you'll die.  Drop a new quarter in, hit start, select your character, you're back in... for a grand total of about 5 seconds, before the boss hits you with some screen-filling attack, and you're dead again.  Another quarter... and another... and another... I loved those games back then just like everybody else, but looking at them now, many of them feel more like a scam than anything. 

Yes, you can artificially limit yourself to a single credit (or X number of credits) and that helps.  Especially for shoot-em-ups.  But the problem is, at least for me, the games start to feel like you're reading the first 1-2 chapters of a book over and over again, and never bothering to go on to chapter 3.  And something gets lost as a result. 

On the other hand, take a game like Robotron.  Even if it had a continue option most players probably wouldn't bother using it because there is really nothing more to "see" other than the same sorts of things you've already seen, only faster and harder.  Yet, there is still a decent variety in enemies and level designs.  So, the incentive is to start again from stage 1 and just work on your chops to get a better and better score.  That is what arcade gaming is all about, IMO.  The games focused on "finishing the game" make better home games. 

 

   
 

[JDFan]

Let's not kid ourselves, the whole point behind Gauntlet  is to get you to put another quarter in the machine.

That's the point of every coin-op game ever.  I think we all accept that, though; the concept of paying a quarter in exchange for a blast of entertainment.  But many of the late 80s and early 90s games took it a bit too far. 

When I first started playing Donkey Kong and Asteroids (for example) my games would last about 2 minutes if I was lucky.  With practice I would gradually get better, learn some tricks, earn the extra lives, and now I can play for 20-30 minutes on a credit.  Even now, the more I play, the better I get. 

And about that time when everyone had learned some tricks and could play for more than 5-10 minutes that would be when the arcade would adjust the Dip switch settings up a bit and make the game more challenging ( or add a speed up hack, etc.) so you were back to the 2-5 minutes or the game company would release an updated version of the game that increased the difficulty.

Figure the arcade couldn't survive if every game was like say Missile Command where you could play all day on a single quarter by hitting that 800K bonus the programmers left in for debugging - since noone would ever score that high !

[yotsuya]

You guys know the drill, you're playing Gauntlet with somebody, or any other Quarter Eater game, and you get to a point where you're bored, and you're secretly hoping the other guy's bored too, and doesn't added credits once all his lives are gone, so you both can just kind of walk away. It's an unspoken gentlemen's agreement. And ultimately, your spirit gets crushed a little when they inevitably hit credit up again, and you have to stay on. That is, until you exclaim "Oh crap, I think my cat got outside!" and run away...

[JDFan]

You guys know the drill, you're playing Gauntlet with somebody, or any other Quarter Eater game, and you get to a point where you're bored, and you're secretly hoping the other guy's bored too, and doesn't added credits once all his lives are gone, so you both can just kind of walk away. It's an unspoken gentlemen's agreement. And ultimately, your spirit gets crushed a little when they inevitably hit credit up again, and you have to stay on. That is, until you exclaim "Oh crap, I think my cat got outside!" and run away...

OR get him to quit by asking if you can borrow a token to continue your game with him