Tzakiel's UAII 2P Fighter CRT Build

[CaptainMarvel]

AWESOME UPDATE !!!!


Keep up the great work !!!


 

[rCadeGaming]

Looking good.  Yeah, those bondo marks should sand out.  Maybe it expanded a little after the first time you sanded it flat, due to the paint moistening it.

[Tzakiel]

Okay, so I can just go ahead and sand the spraypainted panels and re-paint again over it?

[rCadeGaming]

Yes.  After sanding you might want to repaint that whole side there evenly, with the other sides masked.  That way there's no blending to worry about.  The transition between the different coats will be at the corners.  You may also want to rough up any spray point that'll be getting another coat, so that it looks even with the main area you're sanding.

[BadMouth]

The key is getting enough primer or bondo on the MDF to seal it completely so the paint can't sink in anymore.
Then the bondo will blend in.  If you can still tell it's MDF and not metal, you need more primer.

[a1pharm]

This may be too late, but take a look at this thread:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,134090.msg1386514.html#msg1386514

It goes over how to make a glue/water mixture that "seals" and hardens the bare MDF.  I used this idea on the most recent barcade I made, and WOW does this work great!  It makes the slot edge super durable.

[Tzakiel]

I got all of the cp holes drilled. Was about to dive in to making the joystick hole and recesses when I realized I am still pretty clueless about top mounting jlfs even though the guide on this site is helpful. For one, I am not sure which way to orient the stick so up is up on the stick. In addition, I can't seem to get the e clip off the stick which the guide says to do so you can trace the bottom, etc. After that, I'm a bit nervous about all the tracing, cutting, template making, etc. I'm starting to think that for a newbie like me maybe I should just under mount the sticks after recessing the bottom. That would be a pretty thin area so maybe I should go ahead and order s-plates to make it a bit thicker. That seems easier then bothering with top mounting.

If my plexiglass is 1/8" thick, how shallow/thick do I need to make the mdf where buttons and stick plates go? I think the buttons would have to be 1/8" for a total of 1/4" mdf and plexi... Seems very thin! And the stick I honestly am not sure. Anyone have an idea what the thickness should be including plexi for a s plates or regular plates?

[Tzakiel]

Okay, to put my progress and questions into a clearer format with pics...

I got the holes drilled:



I drilled 24mm holes for the joysticks for now, knowing that I would need to expand these for the top mount idea. Now I need to recess the bottom of the CP to fit my buttons, which are sanwa OBSN, and my joysticks, which are JLF with normal mounting plates.

For the buttons, I assume I need to get an overall thickness of 1/4", which should include the 1/8" plexiglass, and so I assume I need to route the 1/2" MDF all the way down to 1/8" from below. Will that be OK?

The joysticks... I planned to use the top mount guide on this site. It basically involves taking apart the stick, tracing the base, making a hole of that shape and size, then tracing the mounting plate and recessing that into the top of the CP just enough to make it flush. Now I'm considering a more simple under mount.. (see below)

A few questions...

Is this the correct orientation to mount the stick?  So the wire harness thing on the upper left... and in this pic, up would indeed be up? There are no indicators as far as I can tell, so I really don't even know which way it's supposed to face. This is a guess:



How do I safely remove the E-clip?  I can't get it off... I can almost get it off with a big screwdriver but it won't quite slip off.

EDIT: I think I figured this out for bottom mounting using the basic plate... after drawing it out and confusing myself a couple of times. The thickness of my MDF and plexi will be 15.7mm. It should be 11mm, given that the recommended shaft distance for JLF is 23mm. Since the shaft is 34mm base to ball, 34-11 = 23mm.  So I think I will have to route a recess of 4.7mm in the bottom, in order to have 8mm of MDF remaining + 3mm of plexi to equal 11mm of material.  Make sense?  Is 8mm of MDF strong enough to support the stick if I use machine screws and nuts/washers?  I'd countersink the top for screw heads to lay flush, I think.

The alternative is to mount with s-plates but then I am at 6.7mm of material without doing anything... I'd need to add washers or spacers to move the joystick plate down and get the required 11mm distance. It would be a stronger hold probably but would the regular mounting plate work OK?

[rCadeGaming]

First of all, it's good that you're sticking to the recommended height.  I wouldn't deviate from that.

Your math is sound, but 8mm of MDF is not much to support your stick.  That is less than a quarter inch.  On top of that, you'll be countersinking a considerable depth into the MDF to get the screws flush, and there will be even less material left between the plate and the screw heads.  (The screws will be hidden underneath the plexi right?)

It doesn't sound safe enough to me.  Think how much work has gone into this already, and how much work it will take to fix it if someone gets excited and breaks it during a heated game.  It's possible it would hold up for a while, but better safe than sorry.

For starters, are you married to 1/8" plexi?  1/16" is plenty thick for that application; it's what I used on top of all my control panels.  Switching would give an extra 1/16" of MDF right off the bat.  I also used 5/8" MDF, but I doubt you want to change that at this point.

Anyhow, if bottom mounting gives you more material that's what you need to do.

The buttons will be fine.  Unlike the stick, they get a lot of support from the plexi as well as the MDF.

As for the clip, it should come off without too much trouble.  Find a flathead screwdriver that will fit well into one of the spaces between the shaft and the clip and work it off.  Keep in mind that the clip should follow a path  away and perpendicular to the axis of the shaft as it comes off.

[Tzakiel]

Thanks again rCade... 8mm is actually .31 inches so it's more than a quarter inch but not by much. So are you advocating for the s plates? I think they give you 9mm so I would actually have the opposite problem and need to use washers, I guess, to add thickness and move them down far enough to keep things at the right distance.

Re: 1/8" plexi, I bought the 5/8" t molding and cut the slot based on that so id like to keep to that. But I suppose I could do 1/16" and trim the t molding a bit, if there were a safe way to razor it off without damaging plexi.

[Locke141]

If your going to do Saturn emulation you should add Guardian Heroes. There are many other Saturn gems you could add, the system has held up much better then the play station.

I feel Dragon Force is also worth a special mention. There is a english patch for the sequel.

http://www.romhacking.net/translations/1622/ 
   
Have a read over at racketboy.com He has many articles on Saturn, and he even still sells mod chips.

http://www.racketboy.com/retro/best-undiscovered-sega-saturn-games

[rCadeGaming]

Right, right.  8 / 25.4 = 0.315.  I shouldn't try to do mental math when I'm tired.  .315 still doesn't sound safe though.

Yes, I made a typo too, I should have said "Anyhow, if bottom mounting with the s-plates gives you more material that's what you need to do."

As for the 1/16" plexi, scratch that as well.  My last was truly a crap post all around!  To be honest I'm pretty sick atm.   

Sounds like with the s-plates you'll have the full 1/2" of MDF either way, so the 1/16" plexi will just increase the size of spacers you need.  Stick with the 1/8" plexi, it will just strengthen the button mounting.  No need to jeopardize your T-molding.

Locke, I never guessed you were into Guardian Heroes .  Seriously though, given how good it is, it deserves real hardware .

[Tzakiel]

Thanks. Looks like I am going to need s plates.

Does anyone know if I have the orientation right in my photo?

[Tzakiel]

Hmm, focusattack sells the s plates with or without screws it says you need to install on a jlf. Do I need those or are they the same as come with the complete stick?

[rCadeGaming]

No, you don't need those screws.  Sorry, I forgot about the orientation question.  It doesn't matter how it's oriented, you can swap the wires around so that up is up, down is down, etc.  Orient it however it looks best, or however will make the wiring cleanest.

[Tzakiel]

Here is the response I got back from the seller regarding s-plate screws... I didn't imagine the screws being hard to remove but maybe it's worth picking them up for the extra couple of dollars.

Thanks for your inquiry.  The S plate is sold without the screws.  I would recommend buying the screws because removing the original screws from the joystick are notoriously difficult.  There is a red glue installed in each screw and nut that attaches the plate to the joystick.  Trying to remove them will often resulting in stripping the screws.

[Locke141]

Locke, I never guessed you were into Guardian Heroes .  Seriously though, given how good it is, it deserves real hardware .

Oh, I have a original copy game. At one point of planing I was thinking of hacking some knock off Saturn controllers to use my build with my Saturn. That was a little much. Saturn emulations, still is not perfect but it has come a long way. I spent hours playing with my brothers.

Just saying, if some ones going to do Saturn emulations they should add some premium games.

[rCadeGaming]

I've gotten those out without stripping them.  At $1.25 per set, nothing wrong with getting some if you're worried about it though.  I know the red "glue" they're talking about.  It's more like some kind of loc-tite equivalent, and yes its a b*tch.  Be careful of stripping the heads.  Use a quality phillips head with the right shaped head for those screws, or else you'll be drilling them out.

Also, notice how the s-plate only has two holes for mounting screws going into the wood.  I'd recommend drilling four new ones at the corners.

[rCadeGaming]

Locke, the MC Cthulhu supports saturn.  No need for pad hacks.

[Tzakiel]

Thanks again for all the help. Bottom mounting does seem to make more sense so that the stick height is correct. Top mounting means a full 31 mm or so of length. It looks like the s plates are out of stock at FA at the moment. I will just have to wait. In the meantime, am I correct that I can "space" the s-plate downwards away from the MDF using several machine screw washers or similar between the nut and MDF?

[rCadeGaming]

No prob, and yes.

There should be other places you can find s-plates.

[Tzakiel]

PL1, tell me this though.  A benefit of a hole saw for me is that I can cut through the plexiglass and the wood underneath at the same time, ensuring that my button holes are in the same place on both pieces.  How is a forstner bit on plexi?

Sh*t. I started drilling my cp holes today and forgot this. I haven't bought plexi yet. I only did 4 holes... Should I wait to buy plexi before doing the rest?

Finish your CP hole drilling, and buy your plexi later.  Clamp the plexi over the drilled CP.  Drill a 1/2" hole using a hole saw in about the middle of each hole.  Use a flush trim router bit and have it enter through the plexi in that 1/2" hole you just drilled, and use it to cut flush holes in the plexi.  Make sure you don't go too slow and burn the plexi.

If you use a hole saw, you may melt the plexi, and it will look like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.  Trust me on the method I outlined above. If it doesn't make sense, let me know.

If the plexi is sitting on top of holes and I use my top bearing flush trim bit, it will bite into my button holes as well. I'm thinking I would need a bottom bearing bit to do this safely. Otherwise I could put plexi on bottom and keep moving the cp and plexi to an open area on my table but that is a pain. Not sure if I could use my 30mm hole saw with cp as a guide... Problem there is centering the saw.

[BadMouth]

..a bit late, but my $.02

There is no correct or incorrect orientation for the stick.  Up is whatever direction you decide Up should be.

I'm using the S-Plates in my build, but in reality they aren't offset that much, so you're still dealing with mounting them to a fairly thin layer of wood.
On the last CP I did for someone else, I made my own adapter plates using 1/2" nylon spacers from lowes and some scrap aluminum plate.
Basically I just ran flat head machine screws through the original JLF plate (which had been partially drilled with a very large bit to countersink the heads), through the spacers and then through a separate plate on each side.  I was surprised how solid this felt.  (It was attached from underneath using screws, not bolts)
If you do go with the s-plates, I'd drill mounting holes on the corners instead of using the 2 centered ones.


I like this better than the s-plates, although I still plan to use the s-plates on mine because I repurposed my original plates and no longer have them.
(actually I had modified my jlfs so much that I was able to build another set by ordering just a few parts)

Instead of routing out pockets for the joysticks and the screw-in buttons, I've started cutting the top layer out of 1/4" mdf and the pocketed area out of 1/2" mdf, and then gluing them together.  It's made for much less mess and doesn't require me to make a jig for the router.
Home Depot has small 2'x4' pieces of each for around $10.

That's where I'm at now with what I know now.  My methods are always changing as I learn more.

[a1pharm]

..a bit late, but my $.02

There is no correct or incorrect orientation for the stick.  Up is whatever direction you decide Up should be.

I'm using the S-Plates in my build, but in reality they aren't offset that much, so you're still dealing with mounting them to a fairly thin layer of wood.
On the last CP I did for someone else, I made my own adapter plates using 1/2" nylon spacers from lowes and some scrap aluminum plate.
Basically I just ran flat head machine screws through the original JLF plate (which had been partially drilled with a very large bit to countersink the heads), through the spacers and then through a separate plate on each side.  I was surprised how solid this felt.  (It was attached from underneath using screws, not bolts)
If you do go with the s-plates, I'd drill mounting holes on the corners instead of using the 2 centered ones.


I like this better than the s-plates, although I still plan to use the s-plates on mine because I repurposed my original plates and no longer have them.
(actually I had modified my jlfs so much that I was able to build another set by ordering just a few parts)

Instead of routing out pockets for the joysticks and the screw-in buttons, I've started cutting the top layer out of 1/4" mdf and the pocketed area out of 1/2" mdf, and then gluing them together.  It's made for much less mess and doesn't require me to make a jig for the router.
Home Depot has small 2'x4' pieces of each for around $10.

That's where I'm at now with what I know now.  My methods are always changing as I learn more.

Wow, that's a great idea.
 

[ppv]

Man, now all I see is a Kirby balloon. 

Can't unsee now!

Like the marquee, though, nice an clean.

[Tzakiel]

Update:

Bought plexiglass, tried to cut it. I put it down underneath the mdf control panel and used the cp as a guide for the hole saw. That helped align the saw perfectly. Everything was clamped together and I was drilling into scrap so it seemed like a really good method.



Result: cracked in 4 different places. I could feel the hole saw grabbing and cracking the plastic as it took hold. Even the pilot hole from the arbor could be heard shattering the plastic.

As a bonus the arbor is now stuck in the hole saw and I can't get it out even with a pipe wrench.  So I'm pretty much stuck at this point.

[rCadeGaming]

I've used that same method to drill plexi.  I found that sometimes the cracking of the plexi is caused by the pilot drill bit in the saw grabbing, not the saw itself.  Just take the out the drill bit and use the saw only, the holes in the MDF are enough of a guide.

As for the jammed up hole saw, I don't know.  Apply more elbow grease, or get a better saw?

[lukensteinz]

Update:

Bought plexiglass, tried to cut it. I put it down underneath the mdf control panel and used the cp as a guide for the hole saw. That helped align the saw perfectly. Everything was clamped together and I was drilling into scrap so it seemed like a really good method.

Result: cracked in 4 different places. I could feel the hole saw grabbing and cracking the plastic as it took hold. Even the pilot hole from the arbor could be heard shattering the plastic.

As a bonus the arbor is now stuck in the hole saw and I can't get it out even with a pipe wrench.  So I'm pretty much stuck at this point.

Use a SPADE BIT. This is the best and most effective way of cutting holes in plexi.
Not a holesaw, the teeth melt the plexi and gum up, or anything else, use a spade bit. And nice even slow pressure. Works a charm! 
See my attached picture.

After a few holes you'll notice the spade bit gets pretty damn hot, which is why a hole saw is a no-no.

[BadMouth]

Any method of sawing/drilling will crack it if you apply pressure.
Think of it more as grinding away the hole rather than cutting it.
Just let the blade slowly scrape away until there's no more material left.

Some people use a small router or a dremel with the router base, using the CP as a template.
I haven't done this yet except for some testing, but plan to do it on my current build using a dremel with a drywall cutout bit.
Have to drill a hole for the bit to start in, and the above still applies to that.

[rCadeGaming]

a hole saw is a no-no.

I did this with a hole saw.  No cracking; perfectly formed holes.  Stop acting like it can't be done properly.  You just need to take it slow.

[lukensteinz]

a hole saw is a no-no.

I did this with a hole saw.  No cracking; perfectly formed holes.  Stop acting like it can't be done properly.  You just need to take it slow.

Very nice!
Sorry mate, I was acting on advice from a plexiglass/plastics wholesaler, they were adamant that a hole saw is a bad choice and a spade bit works best.
The reason being that there's less surface area on the bit to clog up.

I did try both, the spade was easier to use, quicker, and more accurate (just my experience there, yours is obviously different) .

Sent from my Sony Phoney using Tapatalk.

[rCadeGaming]

The negative of less surface area is more concentrated pressure.  Too much force distributed over just those two little points makes it easy bite and jerk the plexi if you're not careful.

[Tzakiel]

I have an update but haven't had time to write it up yet.

The plexiglass is done. RCadegamigs tip about not using the pilot / drill in center of hole saw was the key. I retracted it to be flush with the saw edges and my second sheet came out clean.  That arbor bit really was doing the cracking. Still had some melting/crud but that scraped off easily.

I also got the routed recesses done in bottom of control panel for mounting.

I also received a new control panel printout from gameongrfafix minus the adhesive, which again looks great. I installed s plates on the sticks and that was very easy... You'd really have to be a gorilla with the screwdriver to strip the jlf screws.

Will update with pics later on.

[lukensteinz]

The negative of less surface area is more concentrated pressure.  Too much force distributed over just those two little points makes it easy bite and jerk the plexi if you're not careful.

Can't say I experienced that though. 99% of the cuttings is done by the flat spade shaped section, not the points which are only there to guide and never once bit. It was usually the flat the bit, and it never cracked either.
Anyway...

Sounds like you're making pretty quick progress there

[rCadeGaming]

I don't mean to argue.  Both will work as long as you do it carefully.   

[a1pharm]

I've used both a hole saws and spade bits for drilling holes in plexi.  For the novice, the hole saw will result in more problems than the spade bits.  The reasons for this are numerous.  No matter your skill level, you will always get plexi "gum" on the teeth of the hole saw, which will affect the performance of the saw.  In addition, the hole saw causes more friction based heat along the cut edges than a spade bit.

Hole saws work great if you are trying to make some custom plexi dustwashers.

If you have never cut through plexi before, go the safe route and use a spade bit.  You'll save money, time, and headache.  If you want to be different, or just "stick it to the man" use a hole saw.

rCadeGaming is right: both work.  However, one is easier and cheaper than the other.

I don't intend to hijack this thread, but for people reading this looking for advice, the best advice is to use the spade bit.

[Tzakiel]

Update:

Things are starting to come together.



I routed the bottom of the CP to be the right thickness for the buttons (accounting for plexi) and to inset the joysticks a bit (which will have s-plate and washers for a 24mm height to ball top) I just freehanded it (after tracing some of the hardware outlines). Seems to be fine.

EDIT: I later found out that I had to route more for the joysticks, which had tabs and plastic clips getting in the way of the recess edge. So the pic above does not show that.



The plexi got cut and I installed it with the artwork.



Also hinged the CP to the box using 24" of piano hinge and the included screws (drilled pilots). Seems fairly sturdy in general but a little weak when it's resting on the hinge open. Could just be the metal flexing a bit.



Buttons installed... very happy to get to this point.... a lot of challenges in this build for a novice like me.

One problem... one of the orange plastic screw-in OBSN nuts doesn't fit... I must have missed the template a hair and it's too close to its neighbor button. Any way to remedy that or is there a a thinner nut I can use?

Next Steps:

• Attach iPAC to the cp - what is the best way to do this?
• Wire sticks and buttons to iPAC
• Figure out a solution for powering on the TV. It has power return, which is great... but i just have it plugged into a power strip inside the cabinet. I have to go back there each time. How do I get the TV wired to a little power switch on side of cabinet or similar?
• Marquee light - should come on at same time as TV. Guess the switch should toggle both.
• The PC stays on all the time, not sure if that is a problem or not. I don't really care about the electricity use.
• Need to install XP 64, get hyperspin working right, and everything configured. Which will probably be a pain with hyperspin's convoluted setup, my custom list of games, and groovymame's resolutions/HS bug involved. Also probably need to look at an i5 CPU and mobo for some of the games I like to play.

[BadMouth]

With the buttons, try loosening all its neighbors and working from the center out tightening the nuts.
EDIT: Actually, leave them loose enough that the button can still shift around in it's hole, then after all of them are to that point, tighten them all the way.
I keep the buttons close enough together for the nuts to just touch.  They catch on each other when trying to tighten, but stay evenly spaced that way.
Mine have clear nuts that aren't as tall as those.  Not sure if the orange ones are thicker, but they look like it from the pics.

If loosening up the surrounding buttons doesn't work, I'd grind the one offending nut down on a grinding wheel if you have one.
It would be tedious and look like crap, but it would work.

[yotsuya]

I just realized you're mixing button styles on your CP.

[Tzakiel]

I just realized you're mixing button styles on your CP.

Yep... I sort of like the look of the Happ buttons for admin and coin/start stuff, and they are a lot easier to drop in to the 1/2" MDF.  My eyes still hurt from routing that control panel... dust *everywhere*  I used glasses but next time, goggles for sure.  I haven't really shown it but I have 2 happ buttons on the side for volume up and down, too.