"MAMEdev are *aggressively* trying to move to a commercial license" What???

[Locke141]

I was reading a post at Haze's home page at emulab about some drama with the MAME license.
http://mamedev.emulab.it/haze/2013/10/15/the-end/

Can some one give me some insight, background, or links to what this is all about. I would like to better understand.

Thanks     

[WindDrake]

Just finished reading this.

Way to go, Giles. Good job ---smurfing--- up a good thing, you retard.

[BadMouth]

I don't remember...who did Aaron go to work for when he stepped down?

[DeLuSioNal29]

Wow.  I'm speechless.

[404]

I don't remember...who did Aaron go to work for when he stepped down?

he has worked for a number of companies. he was probably most notable for working for connectix.....back when sony sued them for virtual game station, arguable the best and fastest playstation emulator of its time.

he worked on virtual pc for a bit at connectix and microsoft too.




This is a major blow IMO to the mame dev community and its shocking to see Aaron and a handful of others behind this mess. To top that all off, it's absolutely going to directly affect mame end users. With guys like Haze and a handful of others already dead-set on refusing to allow their code from the mame codebase to be used, this could literally set back arcade emulation years.

Personally I've never been a huge fan of the mame user license, IMO it's always been a complete joke filled with too many rules and double standards. On the same token, I've more than happily used mame and respect those that have busted their rears making mame what it is today. If the select few in these higher up positions continue this, it could very well be the downfall of the entire mame project.

[WindDrake]

Hopefully they just fork it from it's current codebase and continue on under a different name, taking control away from Overlord Giles and his circlejerk.

[Locke141]

I keep checking back to the comment thread.

I am not up on my Mame politics, but from what I can gather 3 people at MAME (RB/Aaron/Micko) are pushing a move to a BSD license, that would allow for commercial use. Its unclear to me how far along this is or whats going to end up happen in the end.

[keilmillerjr]

That's awful. I agree with the article. MAME should be used for people to experience retro games that they might not otherwise be able to experience. It should not be used to turn a profit. I could also see a lot of legal issues occurring if mame made it commercial, and it would likely immediately kill the project.

I'm not any kind of professional in mame or legal matters, but that is just my "average person" thought on the subject.

[WindDrake]

I keep checking back to the comment thread.

I am not up on my Mame politics, but from what I can gather 3 people at MAME (RB/Aaron/Micko) are pushing a move to a BSD license, that would allow for commercial use. Its unclear to me how far along this is or whats going to end up happen in the end.

I watched MAME go from it's infancy to where it is now, and it does not surprise me at all that R.Belmont is partially behind this. The guy's a nutter.

[kahlid74]

I as well have never been a big fan of the MAME user license but I get the jist of it and it's important for us to acknowledge and recognize all of the hard work people have put in to make MAME possible.

Rifts happen everywhere in life.  The emulator community will get through it.  MAME may never be the same though.

[SavannahLion]

It smells like someone is waving a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- load of cash in front of those guys but in order to take it those guys need to change the license. Or maybe they finally have access to something that requires an NDA? Not even sure if the BSD license allows it. Might be a good idea to make copies of the source for that inevitable fork.

But I digrezz. Haven't the MAME guys allowed MAME to appear in commercial products before? Some sort of compilation disc for the PS1 or those Taco Bell promo discs? I remember reading about it somewhere.

[BadMouth]

Ignoring the issue of using someone's code without their permission, I'm curious who the people doing the "coercing" to use it commercially are.
Owners of the rights to the original games, or someone else who sees potential to profit while ignoring the original IP owners?

Also, who do we pay to permanently fix the damn shifter toggle hack they add to all the racing games?

[404]

Hopefully they just fork it from it's current codebase and continue on under a different name, taking control away from Overlord Giles and his circlejerk.

I haven't read the legal logistics of the mame license just yet but i don't know how anyone could make a fork at this point without being at the mercy of the original code owners. After all, Mame's license still gives full copyrights to each contributor.

this is just my opinion but in the end the license has come back to bite both sides of the debate in the rear.

But I digrezz. Haven't the MAME guys allowed MAME to appear in commercial products before? Some sort of compilation disc for the PS1 or those Taco Bell promo discs? I remember reading about it somewhere.

Yes and no.

From what i gather, its a matter of some mame devs using their code (remember, all code contributions still are owned by the respective coder) and they simply used their code which is their copyright for commercial projects.

[paigeoliver]

The sheer fact that the mamedev are trying to move to a commercial license shows that the existing license is meaningless and unenforceable. The text of their own license doesn't allow any of the existing code to be used in that way. So if they can ignore it so can anyone else.

Oh wait, they already do and have been doing so for years.

You can buy dozens commercial products that run mame right now.

The single largest selling arcade PCB of all time runs mame. Not only did mamedev not stop them, but neither did the owners of any of the involved games they included. You can buy commercial products powered by mame on amazon.com right now.

Lord knows how much software out there is secretly powered by mame code. Lets say Sega wants to sell an arcade rerelease, they can spend a ton on development writing their own emulator from scratch or they can just compile mame into their project quietly. On the off chance one of the devs tried to sue them they could ruin them with a countersuit.

[WakiMiko]

Personally I've never been a huge fan of the mame user license, IMO it's always been a complete joke filled with too many rules and double standards.

Too many rules? It's basically a BSD license + no commercial applications. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

• Redistributions may not be sold, nor may they be used in a commercial product or activity.
• Redistributions that are modified from the original source must include the complete source code, including the source code for all components used by a binary built from the modified sources. However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable.
• Redistributions must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.

[Rick]

It's hit Reddit, btw.

[Typefighter01]

I bet $10 Disney will own all things MAME with in a year...any takers?

[harveybirdman]

Well better go on a downloading binge....

This is so lame!

[Haze]

Well better go on a downloading binge....

This is so lame!

MAME will always be freely available for download, the change of license just basically means people will be able to sell it.

While this does happen anyway right now it is WITHOUT our permission.  I do not intend on giving that permission for any code I've contributed.  If anybody has read my previous postings here they'll know I take it very seriously when I say MAME is for documentation and reference, not for people to make money out of it.

99% of end users aren't going to notice, but to people who have contributed under the assumption that their work would be part of a project that would forever be non-commercial it's like being shat on from a great height, especially with Aaron stating that only major contributions count (completely illegal IMHO, everybody who has contributed anything to a file should count)

[ed12]

this whole thing puts a bad taste in coder mouths

just to think u sat and went through thousands of lines of code
to have some/few say f.u. it is going to pay ware and thks for comming
is a bad move....

just like building mames just to sell them is in the bad taste of a hobby

ed

[BadMouth]

Haze, can you comment on who it is that wants to license MAME for commercial use?

[Haze]

Haze, can you comment on who it is that wants to license MAME for commercial use?

The main people pushing for this change are Micko (current project coordinator), Aaron Giles, and R.Belmont.

So not exactly easy people to oppose.

I know there are a fair number of people here who want to be able to sell MAME or use MAME in commercial environments, so my opposition to this probably isn't going to be the most popular here, so I apologise, but it is one of the principal reasons I've contributed over the yeras.

[BadMouth]

Haze, can you comment on who it is that wants to license MAME for commercial use?

The main people pushing for this change are Micko (current project coordinator), Aaron Giles, and R.Belmont.

So not exactly easy people to oppose.

I know there are a fair number of people here who want to be able to sell MAME or use MAME in commercial environments, so my opposition to this probably isn't going to be the most popular here, so I apologise, but it is one of the principal reasons I've contributed over the yeras.

I was asking about outside influences.  Have they already been talking to someone who wants to license it?  Are licensees waiting in the wings?

[404]

Too many rules? It's basically a BSD license + no commercial applications. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

• Redistributions may not be sold, nor may they be used in a commercial product or activity.
• Redistributions that are modified from the original source must include the complete source code, including the source code for all components used by a binary built from the modified sources. However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable.
• Redistributions must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.

saying its merely BSD with no commercial attributes is a little bit of a misnomer. BSD is specifically tailored towards business and what are generally called proprietary offsets or forks which do not disclose source.

Regardless, many projects haven't fared all that well when they have change licenses. Especially in terms of the amount of contributors that leave projects when stricter licenses are adopted.

Personally, I think its a bad idea to change licenses mid-project. At the same time, I've always felt that mame should have always been licensed under a more open license.  On the other side of that token (no pun intended), mame has garnered some attention by both fans and contributors for its unique license.

[Haze]

Haze, can you comment on who it is that wants to license MAME for commercial use?

The main people pushing for this change are Micko (current project coordinator), Aaron Giles, and R.Belmont.

So not exactly easy people to oppose.

I know there are a fair number of people here who want to be able to sell MAME or use MAME in commercial environments, so my opposition to this probably isn't going to be the most popular here, so I apologise, but it is one of the principal reasons I've contributed over the yeras.

I was asking about outside influences.  Have they already been talking to someone who wants to license it?  Are licensees waiting in the wings?

Well if you read what has been said, it's pressure from some academics who claim they can't use MAME in museums right now because of the non-commercial clause.

However there are better ways around that than trying to force open the whole project for any commercial use at all.

I would certainly have agreed to add additional exemptions in the licenses on anything I've contributed to cover THAT use, but it's a world apart from people trying to change the license to allow commercial use anywhere.

[JoeB]

I was wondering, from the typical mame user point of view, what (if any) change will we see from moving from the current custom bsd like license to a pure bsd or gpl one? All of us use bsd/gpl devices everyday. From the Linux kernel that powers our TVs, smart phones, routers, to complete oses like Linux and osx.  I totally understand the impact on developers (code you wrote can now be used by companies to make $$$ without a penny going back to you) but how different is that from the thousands of gpl/bsd apps that are out there now?

Do most mame devs (past and present) really care that much? I was under the impression that most open source devs do it not because they want to get rich/famous but just because they do it for fun / have an "itch to scratch".

David, I respect your work A LOT and understand how ---smurfy--- it might be for you. But do most mame devs really feel the same way?

[JoeB]

One last thought, if mame decides to go gpl instead of bsd than all commercial versions must supply the changes freely back. This is how we get good 3rd party firmware hacks to routers for example. Commercial companies can throw a ton of $$$ into mame development to make it better (think Firefox and chrome for example) can't this be good for end users in the long run?

[Haze]

One last thought, if mame decides to go gpl instead of bsd than all commercial versions must supply the changes freely back. This is how we get good 3rd party firmware hacks to routers for example. Commercial companies can throw a ton of $$$ into mame development to make it better (think Firefox and chrome for example) can't this be good for end users in the long run?

It works for routers, but emulators are a bit different.

Outside of hobby use there isn't really a great market for doing emulation PROPERLY.  Emulation in commercial projects is typically about producing a shippable project at any cost and reshaping parts of the games to be more suitable for modern audiences / the current legal climate etc.  I've seen the results of such projects in the past and most if it is about to what degree they can dismantle the emulator and take shortcuts (eg not emulate any of the sound hardware but replace it with streamed audio and samples, hack in an achievements system) etc.  it's closer to creating modernized 'bootlegs*' of the games than actual emulation.

The code that would get contributed back is unlikely to be of great worth, people already use MAME findings as a reference (which we permit), companies don't supply original materials and documents, the people doing the emulation work commercially are typically not great reverse engineers (why do you think there are no actual Raiden 2 arcade emulators as part of recent the commercial packs?)

As I've mentioned, if the intention really is just to allow museums to use it then this sledgehammer approach was NOT called for.  Personally I don't mind if a museum uses it because it's very much in the spirit of the project, for the good of the world etc.  I do mind if every scumbag company around the globe sees MAME as a new perfectly legal thing they can use to mislead people into thinking is some fantastic new technology and sell without adding anything of worth.

It's really just 3 devs pushing hard for the change, but as they're key devs it's hard to resist.  I feel we should have been given more realistic options, and can't help but think there ARE deeper motives.

*most will even re-order the rom data to make decoding easier, pre-decrypt any code and store the decrypted copy on disc instead rather than emulate the encryption hardware, bypass long startup screens etc. it's actually a very similar process!

[ed12]

JoeB
lets try this the other way around
if u had agreed to a general lic.. with a ton of trems which u read and thought
ok ican abide by that...then u hand over a boat load of patchs and d/l's for free
to find out ppl are now going to have to pay for it..?
how would u feel about.? in truth ?
in general i would hand u code /.img/.bin/.dat/.exe./bat/.bash/.trz
but the truth i did that work,and not u
this is the up-roar

ed

[JoeB]

I think calling GPL or BSD a "commercial" license to be unfair to end users.

Yes, it's more "commercial" friendly, but it's not the same as closed source.  Are the 3 DEV's trying to close the source? are they trying to make it so that future users much purchase MAME to use it?

David, I understand your argument, but isn't that a "worst case" scenario? Isn't it true that most users here will use the standard MAME version rather than the hacked crappy version?

How different is this from what's happing now with devices like 60-in-1?

[Locke141]

I would imagine that they would drop it, or at least be more amenable, if there was a credible threat of a lawsuit. Maybe some of the the developers who don't want the changes could start an indiegogo campaign. A MAME developers rights legal defense fund if you will. I would imagine it would also bring a lot of unwanted negative attention to the three DEV's who want to change the license.

The devs could probably find a copy right lawyer to sign onto the project just for the publicity alone. It would be a good deal for them, if the campaign hits there goal he/she would get payed if not they would still get free publicity. There are a literally thousands of lawyers who can't find jobs right now. It would not take a great high price lawyer, more like a Saul Goodman, to make the point. Just the credible threat of a class action lawsuit would probably bring them around to negotiate.

[ark_ader]

First off Kudos to Aaron and the current development team for finally listening my constant suggestions ( in various forums) for a licensing change and start the process to change the license for eventual commercial use.   

The new licensing would aid the current developers in two separate ways.  Their code can be used in furthering commercial projects, and dodge the legal bullet that can be fired from any copyright holder.  Also when the time comes, the code can be submitted to the Library of Congress, and fulfilling the archiving role than the "arcade ROM Player" as it is commonly associated today.

The second benefit helps the developers to create an arm of technical support which can feed new archiving projects, without resorting to the questionable methods employed in the past.  This technical arm would be a great way to liaison with organizations that may have copyright ownership (opening up doors of communication to resources), or to assist larger companies like Nintendoh or Sega for their nostalgic reboot programs.

The "Owner" of MAME could be construed as the one(s) who coded MAME, which can be traced and linked to the project.  The MAME domain name was linked to an address in So. California (last time I checked) so whoever owns the domain name and can demonstrate that they worked on the project could have legal rights to the entire code base and IP. 

It is all fine and good for Haze to object it, but he doesn't helm the project any more.  I do think he has a say in the licensing change as he was a major contributor for many years but had fallen out of favour.  The MESS team would definitely see some benefit, and existing emulation code could be easier to obtain and assimilate.

I think it is the way to go, and it will change MAME in a positive way, and become more beneficial for the community and kindred intellects that are focused on the preservation side, rather than metamorphosing into some muddled legal and technical mess that would eventually kill the project.

Anyone will be able to take a fork of MAME and make some money supporting it.  I bet Digital Leisure would make some cash out of those tired IPs yet again.       

[DHTech]

How can you licence something commercially that essentially runs illegal roms, I might have the complete wrong end of the stick here, but I assume they're looking to charge for Mame, that would mean charging for something that only has a few legal roms, which in all honesty aren't even worth loading.

[rpgposer]

It's a corporate takeover.  The death of mame as a cooperative group project to which anyone could contribute.  Fight the good fight, Haze.

[JoeB]

I think what this boils down to is advantage/disadvantage to end users vs developers. I can understand the disadvantages to developers (from a philosophical point of view) but am hard pressed to find any for end users.

From end users point of view, switching to pure gpl will allow mame to be distributed with all commercially supported as well as pure free Linux distros (I don't believe one can apt get mame in Debian or red hat today for example). Makes it easier for end users to maintain their system (auto update anyone?)

While it does open the door for samples and prerecorded footages in game play as hacks (which goes against mame charter) it will make games for end users more playable (for example, isn't this how daphne works? How long has there been a dragons lair support in mame but totally not usable) I think a majority of end users will choose playability with hacks vs not playable but documents the CPU perfectly.

[WakiMiko]

^ Debian has had MAME (0.146) in its non-free repository for a while now, of course you have to enable that in the sources.list first.

http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=mame

[Xiaou2]

Haze is the King of Drama.

  But you cant really be too hard on him, considering its that OCD + Phobic  mindset that drives him to figure out PCB puzzles and code for hours on end.

 I know Jeff Anderson from Videotopia was asking about mame some time back... but couldnt use it in his Museum locations due to Licensing.  I told him to email the team, so eventually, that may have happened.  I know he had sent in Hard Drivin Panorama roms and information years ago... and the team didnt do anything with them... and he said he wasnt very happy about that.   He has a very large collection of games, and Im pretty sure he might provide further dumps of needed roms if he was given more good will.  I dont think he would use mame unless there was a true legal means.  Museums do charge entry fees, and while some may be non profit.. I know some that may be profit based.

 And yeah, Im pretty much broke at the moment, but who do I send some money to fix the ---smurf-poo--- input system so that we can have a switch for true arcade inputs, such as true arcade gear shifters, interfacing properly?  As well as finding a way to document and verify actual optical inputs of games, so that true arcade spinners / wheels (and replicas of them), can be 100% arcade accurate... 

 These, and many other similar things need serious work... and nobody seems to care to lift a finger to do it.  Even though they are so bent on making sure nobody Bjorks their code up and represents them poorly... they dont even understand that the games themselves dont even play properly... and thats the greatest insult of all.

[shponglefan]

Haze is the King of Drama.

Weren't you the guy flipping out over CRAPMAME?  Pot, kettle and all that.

[Rick]

Haze is the King of Drama.

Some might call him passionate.

These, and many other similar things need serious work... and nobody seems to care to lift a finger to do it. Even though they are so bent on making sure nobody Bjorks their code up and represents them poorly... they don't even understand that the games themselves dont even play properly... and thats the greatest insult of all.

You know what? Why don't you do something about it, then? I know enough about development to do very, very rudimentary things with a programming language. I can only imagine the amount of knowledge that the MAME Developers have, to even remotely come close to what they've managed to accomplish, and I'd pretty much guarantee you don't either.

I would never state anything anywhere close as disrespectful as you seem to ad nauseum. The greatest insult of all are people like you who think the MAME Developers owe them anything. If you want specific things fixed so bad, become a part of the team that makes them happen. I'm pretty sure that's why the programming is called "open source". You have just as much access as anyone to work the problems out. Have at 'er.

I'm not taking sides on the debate. Personally, I know that I don't know enough about the situation to provide a good opinion on the matter. I do know about human decency and respect, however, and I can certainly call an ---uvula--- an ---uvula--- when I see one.

[paigeoliver]

Also, although I often disagree with haze about things, I do indeed think he should have a major say in what goes on with Mame since he pretty much wrote half of it.