Morality/philosophy - was: Re: Legal Questions: Donating a Cab

[Haze]

saint's note - this thread forked from original thread here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,133804.0.html

I dont advocate bashing anyones head in, I prefer to educate them. The 60 in 1 boards are illegal because they use unlicensed ROMs and they are based on MAME, just an older version. So in essence they are using roms and mame just on a PC that outputs via JAMMA.

I wasn't vilifying you Malenko.  I was disputing the severity of which Haze decided to speak against my response with.  The idea that Robedias has is an excellent one.  I can't read this post without being reminded of the Blues Brothers movie.

The severity is due to the number of times I see this suggested.  Every time a conversation where 'what are my legal options' comes up *somebody* starts suggesting the xx-in-1 boards, then another person will jump on that suggestion and say what a good suggestion it is etc.

Every time I read something like that I die a little bit inside.  These things are not a good suggestion, nor a legal one, they're a plague on the industry from some cheap faceless Asian manufacturers looking to make a quick buck and are also being stocked heavily and pushed by god knows how many arcade shops as some kind of value option.  Not only are they illegal but from what I've seen they also use the lowest quality component available.

We did not create MAME to compete against genuine legal options in the arcade market.  I wish people would stop suggesting these as any form of solution for anything other than suitable uses for a landfill.

People sacrificing perfectly good arcade boards / carts / cabinets to do nasty conversions using information they figured out from MAME is just as bad because again it's using MAME as a destructive tool.  The people selling them often don't bother mentioning they're bootlegs either, just "ultra rare", for example the floods of people selling carts of any NeoGeo prototype the week after it gets dumped, or the Gnet hacks, Naomi hacks, Cave PGM board games hacked to be carts..  All of it is destroying perfectly good original material for some quick profit, and it's disgusting behaviour.

So please excuse me if I have little patience for this and other similar things.

[ark_ader]

I wouldn't bother listening to Haze.  He means well but mamedevs are hypocrites.  Where do you think they get the roms to work on in the first place? The dumping union?

People who live in greenhouses shouldn't throw stones.

Come on Haze you have been getting some odd ball games working for some time now.  Are you telling me that you bid on ebay for this stuff and dump the roms?  An act which is illegal BTW.  And how do these burners manage to find these rare games to bundle in a torrent?  Do you sell them the boards afterwards?

I asked this question before and the response was strangely quiet.  60in1 boards are illegal.  Full stop.  But I see them for sale at distributors, and last time I was at pbhof ( 7 years ago) there was one in a mspacman cab.  Big deal?  Yep.

Nobody gives a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- anymore. If they did you would know about it.  I haven't used mame since .84 minus the odd .136 game.  I don't believe in supporting commercial games that are still in the fledgling arcades at $2 a pop.  I would rather wait for the console port.  Which I believe will be the death knell for Mame.  It will still go on fixing the blatent crap which should have been done.

Maybe a truce will be called and eventually Mame will become a commercial entity.


I swear you have this site on RSS.  Its like Dave Foley, rub the lamp and he appears. 

We are only discussing our moral compass.  Which is more important than some abandonware.

[Haze]

I wouldn't bother listening to Haze.  He means well but mamedevs are hypocrites.  Where do you think they get the roms to work on in the first place? The dumping union?

People who live in greenhouses shouldn't throw stones.

Come on Haze you have been getting some odd ball games working for some time now.  Are you telling me that you bid on ebay for this stuff and dump the roms?  An act which is illegal BTW.  And how do these burners manage to find these rare games to bundle in a torrent?  Do you sell them the boards afterwards?

I asked this question before and the response was strangely quiet.  60in1 boards are illegal.  Full stop.  But I see them for sale at distributors, and last time I was at pbhof ( 7 years ago) there was one in a mspacman cab.  Big deal?  Yep.

Nobody gives a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- anymore. If they did you would know about it.  I haven't used mame since .84 minus the odd .136 game.  I don't believe in supporting commercial games that are still in the fledgling arcades at $2 a pop.  I would rather wait for the console port.  Which I believe will be the death knell for Mame.  It will still go on fixing the blatent crap which should have been done.

Maybe a truce will be called and eventually Mame will become a commercial entity.


I swear you have this site on RSS.  Its like Dave Foley, rub the lamp and he appears. 

We are only discussing our moral compass.  Which is more important than some abandonware.

Not really the point of the discussion, but it's all about intent.

Why are Mamedev emulating games? Not to make a profit, not to scam people, not to pass them off as the original somehow, but to document things and ensure 20-30 years from now these things are still in some way accessible and can be understood by everybody INCLUDING the original creators of the games.  I've said before, why isn't Raiden 2 in any of the new (licensed) Raiden re-releases, simple answer is because *we* haven't figured it out and the company who made it don't have a clue how it works therefore can't make legitimate profit from their own IP!.  MAME is a genuine project for the benefit of everybody and has an actual value to the industry even if it can never be officially stated.  I absolutely guarantee you that after we emulate it the next official licensed compilation will magically have support for it because we've rediscovered how it worked for them.

That's very different to people who see MAME as an opportunity to make a quick buck, short term profit at whatever cost to the industry competing directly against arcade games in their own market.

So I wouldn't say it was hypocritical that these things annoy me, and that I *will* step in to any conversation about them and tell people that, especially if idiots are going to recommend them.

[ark_ader]

I wouldn't bother listening to Haze.  He means well but mamedevs are hypocrites.  Where do you think they get the roms to work on in the first place? The dumping union?

People who live in greenhouses shouldn't throw stones.

Come on Haze you have been getting some odd ball games working for some time now.  Are you telling me that you bid on ebay for this stuff and dump the roms?  An act which is illegal BTW.  And how do these burners manage to find these rare games to bundle in a torrent?  Do you sell them the boards afterwards?

I asked this question before and the response was strangely quiet.  60in1 boards are illegal.  Full stop.  But I see them for sale at distributors, and last time I was at pbhof ( 7 years ago) there was one in a mspacman cab.  Big deal?  Yep.

Nobody gives a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- anymore. If they did you would know about it.  I haven't used mame since .84 minus the odd .136 game.  I don't believe in supporting commercial games that are still in the fledgling arcades at $2 a pop.  I would rather wait for the console port.  Which I believe will be the death knell for Mame.  It will still go on fixing the blatent crap which should have been done.

Maybe a truce will be called and eventually Mame will become a commercial entity.


I swear you have this site on RSS.  Its like Dave Foley, rub the lamp and he appears. 

We are only discussing our moral compass.  Which is more important than some abandonware.

Not really the point of the discussion, but it's all about intent.

Why are Mamedev emulating games? Not to make a profit, not to scam people, not to pass them off as the original somehow, but to document things and ensure 20-30 years from now these things are still in some way accessible and can be understood by everybody INCLUDING the original creators of the games.  I've said before, why isn't Raiden 2 in any of the new (licensed) Raiden re-releases, simple answer is because *we* haven't figured it out and the company who made it don't have a clue how it works therefore can't make legitimate profit from their own IP!.  MAME is a genuine project for the benefit of everybody and has an actual value to the industry even if it can never be officially stated.  I absolutely guarantee you that after we emulate it the next official licensed compilation will magically have support for it because we've rediscovered how it worked for them.

That's very different to people who see MAME as an opportunity to make a quick buck, short term profit at whatever cost to the industry competing directly against arcade games in their own market.

So I wouldn't say it was hypocritical that these things annoy me, and that I *will* step in to any conversation about them and tell people that, especially if idiots are going to recommend them.

But you ducked those dumping questions though....

You guys are a laugh a minute.  Your site says the copyright is owned by....well you don't know do you as there are literally hundreds of active coders internationally, most of the grunt work was done on your watch.  Who's to say some nintendoh techs submitted code on their days off?  Sega too?  And you guys like the attention.  ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, who doesn't know what mame is?


Give me a break.  Now all you do is post trolling comments (which I believe is very accurate) on your site.  Nothing wrong about it.  Just please do not come on this site and give us your ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- on distributing activities you guys so actively engage in.  I would give you a pass if you are doing work for the library of congress and archiving.  It is so funny.   But you are not doing that are you?  How does these hundreds of international coders get a rare rom code to emulate in the first place?  Please tell us.

Just keep doing what you do best, leave the moral arguments to those more qualified and one day I'm sure you will get the captains chair again. 

[ark_ader]

    I've said before, why isn't Raiden 2 in any of the new (licensed) Raiden re-releases, simple answer is because *we* haven't figured it out and the company who made it don't have a clue how it works therefore can't make legitimate profit from their own IP!

So the IP owners have contacted the mamedevs to get them to figure out code for a game that is hugely popular as they need it porting to the ps4 this Christmas.   Cool.  How about those indie developers who can code circles around you?

Smells fishy to you?  Well that is how you tried to sell it to me.

So raiden 2 boards are very difficult to find and expensive to keep running?

So how does this emulation gig of yours hurt the resell market of classic arcade boards?  Which is the legit way to own them....

Off topic but I had to ask as it is vaguely related to the subject.



P.s.
Well it looks like Seibu gave up on you and ported it to the PSX  I think you need to change your example to a mahjong game instead...

[jdbailey1206]

But we are a bunch of grumpy old farts.....

[Haze]

    I've said before, why isn't Raiden 2 in any of the new (licensed) Raiden re-releases, simple answer is because *we* haven't figured it out and the company who made it don't have a clue how it works therefore can't make legitimate profit from their own IP!

So the IP owners have contacted the mamedevs to get them to figure out code for a game that is hugely popular as they need it porting to the ps4 this Christmas.   Cool.  How about those indie developers who can code circles around you?

Smells fishy to you?  Well that is how you tried to sell it to me.

So raiden 2 boards are very difficult to find and expensive to keep running?

So how does this emulation gig of yours hurt the resell market of classic arcade boards?  Which is the legit way to own them....

Off topic but I had to ask as it is vaguely related to the subject.



P.s.
Well it looks like Seibu gave up on you and ported it to the PSX  I think you need to change your example to a mahjong game instead...

The only one doing any trolling here is you, as always, so I'm not responding to any more of your questions.

The last port of Raiden 2 was to the PSX, yes.  It was a launch title.  You do realise how long ago that was right, and how many things have changed? and how that port ended up being tied to the PSX and is in no way the original? and how people doing modern ports can't just emulate that version instead because it relies on Sony IP they can't just license out?

From my time in the industry the number of time companies contacted us and told us that MAME was our ONLY reference if we wanted to bring a game to XBLA was amusing, they simply don't have the original info anymore, or any sources that are clean of hacks from previous ports, or have ended up with code they don't own in them (again from said ports)  MAME provides a valuable service.

Why do you think so many of even the 'legitimate' packs actually end up ripping MAME and other emulators off directly?  We're the only ones who know what we're doing, and even if we spoon feed information and figure things out the 'indie coders who can run circles around us' don't actually have enough of a clue to code things themselves.  The PC release of said Raiden pack (despite licensing Raiden) actually rips the MAME CPU cores and is a mess everybody is moaning about anyway because what they've wrapped the cores in lacks 99% of the basic functionality of MAME.

[mcseforsale]

Here guys, let's let the OP get back to his own post:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,133835.0.html

(not trying to be a mod, I'm just REALLY interested in this discussion).

AJ

[ark_ader]

    I've said before, why isn't Raiden 2 in any of the new (licensed) Raiden re-releases, simple answer is because *we* haven't figured it out and the company who made it don't have a clue how it works therefore can't make legitimate profit from their own IP!

So the IP owners have contacted the mamedevs to get them to figure out code for a game that is hugely popular as they need it porting to the ps4 this Christmas.   Cool.  How about those indie developers who can code circles around you?

Smells fishy to you?  Well that is how you tried to sell it to me.

So raiden 2 boards are very difficult to find and expensive to keep running?

So how does this emulation gig of yours hurt the resell market of classic arcade boards?  Which is the legit way to own them....

Off topic but I had to ask as it is vaguely related to the subject.



P.s.
Well it looks like Seibu gave up on you and ported it to the PSX  I think you need to change your example to a mahjong game instead...

The only one doing any trolling here is you, as always, so I'm not responding to any more of your questions.

The last port of Raiden 2 was to the PSX, yes.  It was a launch title.  You do realise how long ago that was right, and how many things have changed? and how that port ended up being tied to the PSX and is in no way the original? and how people doing modern ports can't just emulate that version instead because it relies on Sony IP they can't just license out?

The only one doing any trolling here is you, as always, so I'm not responding to any more of your questions.

I bet.  If you did you would be out of the clubhouse for good.  Glad to see that my questions were accurate.  The inconvenient truth.

I would quote something about heat and the kitchen but it would be filtered out by you.  Now you cannot come on this site and quote that high and mighty crap of yours, especially since you fail to defend it.  That must sting a bit.  Sorry.

Besides I am sure you are not an official spokesman for the merry bunch of coders that do all this coding for posterity.   Beggers belief that the code is useless without the software.....

I think this thread should be pinned so we can refer to it when this type of question appears. And how a seasoned mamedev fails to answer the important questions that would justify the circulation of game roms for development purposes is any different than distribution of mame roms to assist in " quality assurance " of said code.  I mean how does the mamedevs know that their code is 100% correct without some form of QA?   


Hmmmm...

[Haze]

    I've said before, why isn't Raiden 2 in any of the new (licensed) Raiden re-releases, simple answer is because *we* haven't figured it out and the company who made it don't have a clue how it works therefore can't make legitimate profit from their own IP!

So the IP owners have contacted the mamedevs to get them to figure out code for a game that is hugely popular as they need it porting to the ps4 this Christmas.   Cool.  How about those indie developers who can code circles around you?

Smells fishy to you?  Well that is how you tried to sell it to me.

So raiden 2 boards are very difficult to find and expensive to keep running?

So how does this emulation gig of yours hurt the resell market of classic arcade boards?  Which is the legit way to own them....

Off topic but I had to ask as it is vaguely related to the subject.



P.s.
Well it looks like Seibu gave up on you and ported it to the PSX  I think you need to change your example to a mahjong game instead...

The only one doing any trolling here is you, as always, so I'm not responding to any more of your questions.

The last port of Raiden 2 was to the PSX, yes.  It was a launch title.  You do realise how long ago that was right, and how many things have changed? and how that port ended up being tied to the PSX and is in no way the original? and how people doing modern ports can't just emulate that version instead because it relies on Sony IP they can't just license out?

The only one doing any trolling here is you, as always, so I'm not responding to any more of your questions.

I bet.  If you did you would be out of the clubhouse for good.  Glad to see that my questions were accurate.  The inconvenient truth.

I would quote something about heat and the kitchen but it would be filtered out by you.  Now you cannot come on this site and quote that high and mighty crap of yours, especially since you fail to defend it.  That must sting a bit.  Sorry.

Besides I am sure you are not an official spokesman for the merry bunch of coders that do all this coding for posterity.   Beggers belief that the code is useless without the software.....

I think this thread should be pinned so we can refer to it when this type of question appears. And how a seasoned mamedev fails to answer the important questions that would justify the circulation of game roms for development purposes is any different than distribution of mame roms to assist in " quality assurance " of said code.  I mean how does the mamedevs know that their code is 100% correct without some form of QA?   


Hmmmm...

What planet are you living on?

I've explained things perfectly and you continue to troll, troll, troll, troll.

Quite why saint puts up with it here I don't know.

xx-in-1 games are NOT a suitable answer to the OPs post, nor are Mame boxes.  I will post the same every time this comes up.

Trying to dismiss this with points about how MAME came to be, or emulates things is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

[ark_ader]

I'm on the planet that people ask questions and those who are competent (like you) can answer.

You still have to answer those questions due to your previous comments.  I won't ask you to explain that comment about smacking peoples heads as it is metaphoric. 

Run away and stick your head in the sand until you feel confident enough to man up and answer the questions asked of you.

I still respect you.  But you need to quit being ignorant and answer the questions.......If you dare.

[Haze]

I'm on the planet that people ask questions and those who are competent (like you) can answer.

You still have to answer those questions due to your previous comments.  I won't ask you to explain that comment about smacking peoples heads as it is metaphoric. 

Run away and stick your head in the sand until you feel confident enough to man up and answer the questions asked of you.

I still respect you.  But you need to quit being ignorant and answer the questions.......If you dare.

blah blah blah , troll troll troll, blah blah blah

nothing to do with the subject at hand.

I answered the relevant questions in the thread, which is the legality of the xx-in-1 boards, and explained my strong dislike for giving misleading advice by recommending them.  Nothing else said / asked is even remotely relevant or worthy of an answer.

[DGP]

    

... the first rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club.

 

Jason

[Vigo]

I'm on the planet that people ask questions and those who are competent (like you) can answer.

Maybe he is not answering because you are insinuating an accusation, not merely asking a question.

[ark_ader]

I'm on the planet that people ask questions and those who are competent (like you) can answer.

Maybe he is not answering because you are insinuating an accusation, not merely asking a question.

He is not answering as the topic is too dangerous.

I can ask him those questions just the same but in reality the answer is moot.

Same as his 60in1 poke.  Mame has endorsed its existence by supporting it.

It's all hypocrisy.  He knows it.  But you cannot be of moral integrity with dirty  hands.

[Vigo]

Copyright law is nothing a pile of turds in a clogged toilet and you know it. Reaching in and using those turds as a weapon will just give you as dirty of hands as the guy who has to dodge around the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

I disagree with Haze a lot, and I actually agree with you that it does come off as hypocritical to start lecturing about the law while at the same time stating he can be above it for philosophical reasons, but really, you are doing the same damn thing by using mame yet at the same time chastising a guy for skirting around the law. If you are gonna have a beef with him, stick to your own principles and stop trying to trap him with copyright law.

[ark_ader]

Copyright law is nothing a pile of turds in a clogged toilet and you know it. Reaching in and using those turds as a weapon will just give you as dirty of hands as the guy who has to dodge around the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

I disagree with Haze a lot, and I actually agree with you that it does come off as hypocritical to start lecturing about the law while at the same time stating he can be above it for philosophical reasons, but really, you are doing the same damn thing by using mame yet at the same time chastising a guy for skirting around the law. If you are gonna have a beef with him, stick to your own principles and stop trying to trap him with copyright law.

Its not copyright law that I am subjecting him with.  Haze thinks the 60n1 boards are illegal due to his and several others contributions that eventually made the 60n1 boards a reality, this presents the crux of his argument but it is more complicated than that.  You can see on his website he is actively cracking the protection systems on software that is not commercially dead. Those games will end up in these Xn1 boards he hates so much.  I can understand his point on a game like moon cresta machine or Star Castle as those machines are not manufactured anymore.  Pac man gets raised from the dead more times than Monroe, so that game should be hands off as it is commercially available and viable.  Mamedevs are strict on the public distribution of arcade roms, but there is no mention on how these said roms are captured and used by the development team.  This was not the case in the early days.  In all possibility the captured rom could be stored in a central location and tested by the QA team or lead developer.  But the ex project lead developer is not answering (refusing to answer) those questions.  Again the same questions on how a rare board is captured and found on a torrent or via a burning crew.  These questions go unanswered.  If the board is purchased, the rom is captured, analysed and source documented, the rom deleted and the board sold on to buy more boards makes perfect sense.  Again silence from the ex Lead Mamedev.
So copyright law is not the problem, and their actions is loosely covered under the DMCA for library archiving.  So why the mystery?  Does the end justify the means of the 60n1?  I think it does.  Then the rabbit hole goes even deeper than you or I will possible imagine, on a huge global scale.  His comments towards IP owners asking the mamedevs to help them recover their lost code is amazing.  Slighly hard to believe.  It is like IBM going to the Geek Squad to recover their hard drives.    Yet it doesn't hurt to ask questions, especially difficult ones. Especially when the said Mamedev is spouting against the very thing he inadvertently helped to become a reality, and crying about it.  He doesn't seem to mind those who create forks of hacked Mame code, which would tick me off as a developer.  No he is a bit quiet on that bit.   

[saint]

Give me a break.  Now all you do is post trolling comments (which I believe is very accurate) on your site.  Nothing wrong about it.  Just please do not come on this site and give us your ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- on distributing activities you guys so actively engage in.  I would give you a pass if you are doing work for the library of congress and archiving.  It is so funny.   But you are not doing that are you?  How does these hundreds of international coders get a rare rom code to emulate in the first place?  Please tell us.

Just keep doing what you do best, leave the moral arguments to those more qualified and one day I'm sure you will get the captains chair again. 

You're being an ass. Make your points without the condescension and antagonism please.

And the original OP didn't ask about morality, he asked about legality. Haze's response that xx-in-1 boards are illegal is correct, the ROMs are not licensed.

I'm forking off the morality/philosophy bits from the original point of this thread, the legality.

[ark_ader]

Give me a break.  Now all you do is post trolling comments (which I believe is very accurate) on your site.  Nothing wrong about it.  Just please do not come on this site and give us your ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- on distributing activities you guys so actively engage in.  I would give you a pass if you are doing work for the library of congress and archiving.  It is so funny.   But you are not doing that are you?  How does these hundreds of international coders get a rare rom code to emulate in the first place?  Please tell us.

Just keep doing what you do best, leave the moral arguments to those more qualified and one day I'm sure you will get the captains chair again. 

You're being an ass. Make your points without the condescension and antagonism please.

And the original OP didn't ask about morality, he asked about legality. Haze's response that xx-in-1 boards are illegal is correct, the ROMs are not licensed.

I'm forking off the morality/philosophy bits from the original point of this thread, the legality.

Fair enough but you could have kept the excellent research material I found, which surprisingly vindicated Haze and his methods.   

[saint]

Give me a break.  Now all you do is post trolling comments (which I believe is very accurate) on your site.  Nothing wrong about it.  Just please do not come on this site and give us your ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- on distributing activities you guys so actively engage in.  I would give you a pass if you are doing work for the library of congress and archiving.  It is so funny.   But you are not doing that are you?  How does these hundreds of international coders get a rare rom code to emulate in the first place?  Please tell us.

Just keep doing what you do best, leave the moral arguments to those more qualified and one day I'm sure you will get the captains chair again. 

You're being an ass. Make your points without the condescension and antagonism please.

And the original OP didn't ask about morality, he asked about legality. Haze's response that xx-in-1 boards are illegal is correct, the ROMs are not licensed.

I'm forking off the morality/philosophy bits from the original point of this thread, the legality.

Fair enough but you could have kept the excellent research material I found, which surprisingly vindicated Haze and his methods.   

I did not delete any posts.

[ark_ader]

My mistake. 

[Vigo]

I'm forking off the morality/philosophy bits from the original point of this thread, the legality.

I'm glad the OP's thread could be saved from this. 

[Well Fed Games]

I'm of two minds about all this; I feel like I wasted a ton of time trawling through these threads, but it has reminded me to go read Haze's blog (http://mamedev.emulab.it/haze/) which is always time well spent. MAME unearths games that would otherwise be lost and forgotten, and I am grateful for the MAME Developers' work.

[Vigo]

I don't know why people let legality dictate their morality. Things should be the other way around. The funny thing is that arcade PCBs were only designed to make money from commercial operators with the intent that they didn't care what the individual paid or didn't pay to play the game. Saving arcade games is a good thing, and distributing them is the best way to ensure they are preserved many years from now. This stuff should be a no-brainer.

I personally think Haze's stance can be awkward and hypocritical, but I have to think he says what he says because he is trying to protect Mame. I respect that, so I tend to leave him and his point of view alone. The minute you have mamedevs going around openly promoting piracy, you can be sure someone powerful enough to do cause legal problems would take notice.

[rpgposer]

I like what Vigo just said.  With that, I will speak only for myself:  I am bit schizophrenic with the morality issue.  What I do with my time with my stuff is MY business, but I would never put myself or anyone else in jeopardy by selling or giving away a cabinet with mame/roms or illegal copies of PC games installed on it.