Galaga

[Le Chuck]

Clearly you're not a golfer

No, I'm clearly not, but now that you mentioned it, I think you were alluring to it by quoting something. I think I'm recognizing Big Lebowski, but that was kind of about bowling, not golfing, unless I'm completely confused.

Anyway in order to "save face" I have no choice but to continue forward with anti-galaga sentiment!

[DaveMMR]

If even one innocent youngster that wanders onto this  pep rally can be saved from that ugly pro-galaga propaganda peddled by pro-galaga agents (if not minions) , that's enough of a motivation.

Say NO to black, single, static screens!

Be progressive PLAY XEVIOUS GORF!

Thank you!

FTFY.

Gorf is too noisy. And the even-numbered missions are just a bit dull where the first and third are just scaled-down replicas of games I played a million times before.
Yup, I said it. 

[Vigo]

"You will meet a Gorfian doom, Space Cadet."

[Nephasth]

Ha. Ha. Ha.

[Xiaou2]

 Galaga is actually more challenging than Gyruss.

  In Gyruss, you can escape enemy fire, by going either direction in an infinite circle.
  In Galaga, you can get trapped in a corner, unable to escape enemy bullets.  As such, you have to plan your moves carefully in advance,
analyzing the enemies paths, and faking them out accordingly.

 In Gyruss,  getting powered up is pretty easy.. and your ship stays the same size.
 In Galaga,  its risky to let the enemy steal your ship, then try to rescue it without shooting it down.  When you get double-ship power,
you have more firepower... but you also are twice as wide... making it harder to avoid enemy fire.

 I like them both...  but over the years, Ive come to realize Galaga as the better shooter.

 I also love Gorf.  But Gorf is a little slow compared to either of the above mentioned.   I especially love taking on the mothership.

 Another Favorite, Satans Hollow.  I probably play it more than all the rest.  If only the difficulty didnt get so cheap and dirty.  Some levels seem beyond human capability.  heh

[DaveMMR]

In Gyruss, you can escape enemy fire, by going either direction in an infinite circle.

But with a much shorter reaction time....

[Gray_Area]

None of the games are the same. Galaga is a shooter, Xevious is a scrolling shooter, and Gyruss is a mutant. They all have elements of repetition, and elements of wonder. The latter two have a lot more of the latter, which is why I like them more.

[Dekieon]

those are all great games, but centipede beats them all. 

[ids]

so much sacrilege in this thread 

[mimic]

Clearly you're not a golfer

No, I'm clearly not, but now that you mentioned it, I think you were alluring to it by quoting something. I think I'm recognizing Big Lebowski, but that was kind of about bowling, not golfing, unless I'm completely confused.

Anyway in order to "save face" I have no choice but to continue forward with anti-galaga sentiment!

I don't know what's the problem. I'm having some (I thought) light hearted fun at Galaga's expense and you're basically suggesting I'm a dim-wit, just because I don't get your movie quotes? Sheesh
You won't have to see me again in your "precious" thread
ciao!

[Vigo]

Another Favorite, Satans Hollow.  I probably play it more than all the rest.  If only the difficulty didnt get so cheap and dirty.  Some levels seem beyond human capability.  heh

I really like Satan's Hollow, but the graphics always made my eyes bleed. Something about a simple black background with some stars jives better with shooters for me.

[Le Chuck]

I don't know what's the problem. I'm having some (I thought) light hearted fun at Galaga's expense and you're basically suggesting I'm a dim-wit, just because I don't get your movie quotes? Sheesh
You won't have to see me again in your "precious" thread
ciao!

I was having light hearted fun too    Seems I need to walk on egg shells around this place tho.  I'm sorry I offended your sensibilities. Don't go away mad man.   

[Xiaou2]

Another Favorite, Satans Hollow.  I probably play it more than all the rest.  If only the difficulty didnt get so cheap and dirty.  Some levels seem beyond human capability.  heh

I really like Satan's Hollow, but the graphics always made my eyes bleed. Something about a simple black background with some stars jives better with shooters for me.

 Well, everyone has an opinion..  but its a bit odd to me, for a classic lover to diss a game based on graphics.

 Its actually quite interesting to me... to see a game try to represent Satans Lair.  I especially like how the graphics change in color
to simulate different lighting conditions.   I also love how furious the game is.  I mean, none of the games listed here have a giant boss
(satan head) that moves mach 1, and shoots a 100 ft long bolt of fire.   heh

 The Powerup on Satans Hollow is great too.  3 levels of power, by adding more guns to your ship.  Which is severely needed in those
intense demon filled skies.

 One day Ill remake the game...   One day....

[CraftyMech]

Galaga is the King! 

Tied for title of my all time favorite, with Ms PacMan. On a stock arcade cab, my high is in the 400's without the no-shot trick. With the no-shot trick, and playing in MAME (paused for breaks), 1.7 million-ish.

[Vigo]

Another Favorite, Satans Hollow.  I probably play it more than all the rest.  If only the difficulty didnt get so cheap and dirty.  Some levels seem beyond human capability.  heh

I really like Satan's Hollow, but the graphics always made my eyes bleed. Something about a simple black background with some stars jives better with shooters for me.

 Well, everyone has an opinion..  but its a bit odd to me, for a classic lover to diss a game based on graphics.

 Its actually quite interesting to me... to see a game try to represent Satans Lair.  I especially like how the graphics change in color
to simulate different lighting conditions.   I also love how furious the game is.  I mean, none of the games listed here have a giant boss
(satan head) that moves mach 1, and shoots a 100 ft long bolt of fire.   heh

 The Powerup on Satans Hollow is great too.  3 levels of power, by adding more guns to your ship.  Which is severely needed in those
intense demon filled skies.

 One day Ill remake the game...   One day....

I'd like to see a remake or a sequel 

To clarify, I thought the graphics were great, but maybe a bit too ambitious to the point where I felt it detracted from the game. When on a dusk level which is pretty much a two-toned red background, shooting at red creatures just plain hurt my eyes. It just made me wish for the plain old space shooter backgrounds so I could simply focus on what I was shooting better.

[Xiaou2]

Well, I fired up a few games last night.

 One thing about Galaga thats different than Gyruss,  is that the enemies in Galaga let loose a volley of fire before they swarm down
upon you.   This makes it more difficult to get a good line of fire on them..  and makes it far more difficult.

 In Gyruss, they tend to only release fire after they get near you.   Makes it too easy to clear most of the horde before they are set up.

 Even when the Horde is set up, they are not as agressive as what happens in Galaga.   Galaga can have several squadrons of enemies
active.   They are harder to hit too, as the bullet sizes are smaller..   and the scaling that they do (grow and shrink),  is far greater in Galaga than Gyruss.

 Even the Bonus stages in Galaga are more challenging.

 Maybe things change in Gyruss, at much later in the game.   Ill have to check.   But if so, the difficulty ramp is way slower than Galaga.


 As for Galaga, its actually not a static shooter.  Technically, the stars are scrolling, so that indicates forward movement.  heh

 As for Xevious..   Its a nice game, but it still feels a bit slow to me.   I do like the individual bomb controls.  Makes for more challenge,
however, if bombing certain targets were a requirement, and bonus multipliers were active... it would be more fun.
The sound effects get a bit annoying after a while. The backgrounds get boring quickly.   There are far better vertical shooters IMO.  I find Galaga more fun than Xevious for sure.

 Though IMO, none can hold a candle to a good game of Thunderforce II     heh

[Malenko]

I don't get all this "X is better than Y banter"   Cant we all just love us some Galaga and other games too?

I love Galaga, I think Gyruss is a blast, Who doesn't enjoy a meaty game of Hotdog Storm? I sometimes daydream about playing Mars Matrix and Do Don Pachi like I used to daydream about Tetris as a child.

[yotsuya]

I don't get all this "X is better than Y banter"   Cant we all just love us some Galaga and other games too?

I love Galaga, I think Gyruss is a blast, Who doesn't enjoy a meaty game of Hotdog Storm? I sometimes daydream about playing Mars Matrix and Do Don Pachi like I used to daydream about Tetris as a child.

Vigo's posts in this thread > Malenko's posts in this thread     

[Malenko]

Vigo's posts in this thread > Malenko's posts in this thread > XuiceBoxe's posts in any thread   

FTFY

[CraftyMech]

You know you are a Galaga fanatic when you start a 2 player game just so you can play as the second player and not roll the score at 999,999.

[yotsuya]

Vigo's posts in this thread > Malenko's posts in this thread > XuiceBoxe's posts in any thread   

FTFY

QFT.

[Vigo]

Vigo's posts in this thread > Malenko's posts in this thread > XuiceBoxe's posts in any thread   

FTFY

QFT.

   I better stop while I'm ahead.

[mgb]

I don't get all this "X is better than Y banter"   Cant we all just love us some Galaga and other games too?

I love Galaga, I think Gyruss is a blast, Who doesn't enjoy a meaty game of Hotdog Storm? I sometimes daydream about playing Mars Matrix and Do Don Pachi like I used to daydream about Tetris as a child.

Very true.
  Though its fun sometimes to talk about which games you prefer and don't.

 It's kinda comical though how some (x2) will go into a deep analysis of which game is better and why

[Jumpman64]

Just started playing Gyruss recently.  I don't get why it's not a spinner game.  Maybe they thought it would be TOO much like Tempest?

[DaveMMR]

Just started playing Gyruss recently.  I don't get why it's not a spinner game.  Maybe they thought it would be TOO much like Tempest?

It could have been for financial reasons as well (Konami had excess joysticks, spinners more expensive, etc.)  Just a guess.

[Xiaou2]

Just started playing Gyruss recently.  I don't get why it's not a spinner game.  Maybe they thought it would be TOO much like Tempest?

 Why not make Galaga a Spinner game?    Arkanoid uses a horizontal action for moving left to right...   

   The thing is... Gyruss wouldnt work well the way it stands, with a spinner.   Its a bit too easy as it is.  With unlimited speed to dodge away... it would be 10x easier than it already is.

 They would have to reprogram the entire game, so that a minimum of like  3 waves of enemies were always attacking at the same time.
The enemies would have to move about twice as fast, and fire more rounds as well.   All that was probably beyond the speed of the
PCB Hardware that the game uses.

 
 Tempest uses simple vectors, & no background music.   The balance works with Tempest, cause you have to destroy all those lines
before you can even hit the enemies.  And masses of enemies move down the tubes quite quickly, as well as fire often.   If the game was more tame, a simple joystick could have been used.


 Finally, Tempest is kind of not even a ship.  I think the Ship kind of Flips over end to end?    Gyruss is an actual Thruster driven Ship.
As such, its a bit unrealistic to say the least, to have instant  Mach 5  acceleration.   Its limited to a maximum set speed and turning radius.


 It could be really cool to see a Gyruss style game with a spinner...  But, it would have to really up the intensity to work well.   Maybe some speedy maze paths on the edges... that you have to avoid crashing into.   Kinda like the Star Wars Trench, but in a circle fashion.  Maybe keep it Vector in nature.  But use a similar Gyruss-like set of Sound Tracks? 

 Even blocking off part of the screen with stuff, would limit easy escapes... creating a much higher difficulty level.

 Stereoscopic 3D LCD glasses for actual depth, would really spice things up too.


 One day, all these designs in my head, will get realized.... I hope...

[DaveMMR]

Finally, Tempest is kind of not even a ship.  I think the Ship kind of Flips over end to end?    Gyruss is an actual Thruster driven Ship.
As such, its a bit unrealistic to say the least, to have instant  Mach 5  acceleration.   Its limited to a maximum set speed and turning radius.

Okay, so this will be the point that I have to say that you are way overthinking the answer to his question just a tiny bit. I SERIOUSLY doubt the programmers were having any of this discussion when deciding on a control for their game.

The programmers back then made some really fun, great games but you're giving them just way too much credit. At the end of the day, they were all trying to put food on the table - not worry about the theoretical physics of a fictional 8-bit sprite.

Good grief...

[Malenko]

Finally, Tempest is kind of not even a ship.  I think the Ship kind of Flips over end to end?    Gyruss is an actual Thruster driven Ship.
As such, its a bit unrealistic to say the least, to have instant  Mach 5  acceleration.   Its limited to a maximum set speed and turning radius.

I no rite? I mean look how unrealistic Pacman is, I mean where do all those dots fit in him and I've never seen him poop!

[CraftyMech]

The 80s computer game "Dung Beatle" took the Pacman concept in a more plausible direction- you played a character who ran around a maze leaving a trail of dung... and the Dung Beatles that chased you would get distracted and eat your poop! The circle of life...

[Xiaou2]

Okay, so this will be the point that I have to say that you are way overthinking the answer to his question just a tiny bit. I SERIOUSLY doubt the programmers were having any of this discussion when deciding on a control for their game

 One things for sure,  that games back then were made to a much higher standard than today.   The reason, is because the games
had to be interesting and difficult enough to keep money flowing into the Ops pockets.   If a game was too easy, and people played on the machine too long..  Ops would complain, ask for refunds, and possibly canceled future orders.    They spent Months testing and revising games difficulty and level design.  Usually, the games could last many years without bordom, to the casual player..  and hold up many years to even the hardcore players.

 Initially, a lot of games were Abstract.  A lot of this was due to graphical, ram, and processing power  limitations.  As power increased,
games began to drift more towards realism. Today, it rare to find any designer making Abstract games.  (which is a bit of a shame)

 Designing games wasnt just about putting food on the table.   Any of the greats will tell you, that they did it because they loved to
create these things.   They loved games.  They loved making new things and pushing the boundaries of what was possible with the
limited hardware.   They almost always pushed the hardware to its chocking point. Often doing things with hardware, that even the
hardware creators didnt realize was possible.

 Game designers / Creators, worked very long hours.. often getting very little sleep.  They often slept, ate, and lived in their offices..
trying to make the deadlines.  And or trying to pack more stuff into the games.

 
 As both an Artists and Designer,  I look at all aspects of a games design.   This includes realistic / cool looks  (nice engine thruster flames) , as well as propulsion,  gameplay,  specialized & unique controllers, story line, and more.   Its no different from the past.   But as said,
it depends on both the designer (to decide if it will be reality based or Abstract).. and what technological level of hardware they were working with...  as well as how well the prototypes play, and how well they scored on tests.

[Malenko]

One things for sure,  that games back then were made to a much higher standard than today.   The reason, is because the games
had to be interesting and difficult enough to keep money flowing into the Ops pockets.   If a game was too easy, and people played on the machine too long..  Ops would complain, ask for refunds, and possibly canceled future orders.    They spent Months testing and revising games difficulty and level design.  Usually, the games could last many years without bordom, to the casual player..  and hold up many years to even the hardcore players.

Citation needed. Gyruss was in development for less than a year (I've read 4 to 7 months, but nothing firm). I hate to break your fantasy of what game development was like for arcades genesims Xaiou2, but the tweaking to difficulty happened more with dip switches than months of development. My best guess is they found what they would consider "medium" and added dips to alter that.

 I'd also like to see where you found that devs would make a game to last years, which would actually hurt them in the long run. Using Gyruss as an example, you could set number of ships and difficulty. Fire it up in MAME and you'll see difficulty changes the number, speed, and fire rate of enemies and little else. If games were meant to last years, why did Konami release at least 6 games a year after 1983, and as many as 24+ games a year in the 90s (35+ in 1999)?


 Also, bordom is spelled Boredom. Just one of those misspellings that irk me.  That being said , Time Pilot is still a better game

[Xiaou2]

Citation needed. Gyruss was in development for less than a year (I've read 4 to 7 months, but nothing firm).

 Gyruss is a lot more simple than something like Defender.  Its also pretty much a copy of existing gameplay ( Galaga)

 However, you have to understand what one Year means in the 80s game dev scene.    It usually meant one or two guys programming
18 hrs a day, 7 days a week, for the duration of the project.   The programmers often also did the graphics themselves.  Usually traced
out on graph paper in advance.   Programming I believe, was done in pure Assembly, which is the fastest language for the Processors.  However, its also a real bear to program that way, and its very hard to find bugs.  I believe I heard that many of the initial games were originally coded using a Typerater that made a punch card printout..  that was then fed into a different machine, to get the code transferred.

 The games were reviews in meetings every so often, checking on progress, and changes being made withing them.  Games were tested
regularly, by both Atari employees, Mgt., and outsiders.  Games were tweaked accordingly, based on the feedback.   At the final stages,
an actual machine was placed in an Arcade... and turned Live.   Players were asked to rate the game and what they thought about it.
Feedback based on earnings made, and comments... further changed the game, or if it did poorly enough, it was Scrapped altogether.

 Most of this was from what I read from Atari devs.   In Japan, things may have been slightly different.

 For example, in Atari, many of the early games were mainly programmed & designed by one guy.  Where as in Sega, that guy doing an outrun mod /editor  -  reassembler , says theres evidence of multiple programmers working on many different section of game code.

 Over time, Games development has changed drastically.  Some for the better, but sometimes for the worse.

[ids]

Programming I believe, was done in pure Assembly, which is the fastest language for the Processors.  However, its also a real bear to program that way, and its very hard to find bugs.

This is all to often stated, but as someone who coded extensively in assembler back in the day, I choose to disagree.  It requires a different approach than would be used today, but then today I work on systems that contain 1000's of times more code and complexity.  Debugging an assembly system that is working at such a low level with hardware can be quite a challenge, but then so can debugging a massive system with hundreds of threads that talks to several other systems, hardware components (e.g. barcode reader, card reader, etc) and so on.


and fwiw, Galaga rocks 

[Jumpman64]

What would be neat is a "digital spinner"  I'm thinking of something that looks like a spinner, but only turns a few degrees each way and springs back to center.  Any game have something like that?

[Gray_Area]

Don't encourage your brother! (Bonus for knowing where that comes from.)

Some interesting counter-talk:

Part of the challenge of Gyruss, is being patient.  If you try to risk moving too far too quickly... you might not make it.  It results in a lot of 'that was close' moments.

And on that note, I'm surprised the spinner mention hasn't conjured up lew.

What would be neat is a "digital spinner"  I'm thinking of something that looks like a spinner, but only turns a few degrees each way and springs back to center.  Any game have something like that?

I recall there was a vertical shooter that had a control like that. Or something.... Maybe a console system...yeah, but I don't recall which. No need to mod a spinner. Just use a turn dial like on older appliances, though this one would need to be two-way.

And, lastly, I decided to play a game of Galaga. It's fun enough. I play rarely and average around seventy grand. The percentage is about average - something in me mentally obviously that brings this consistency - but obviously a little better game this time round.

[mgb]

Oh yeah galaga!!
  That's how this thread started huh?
Just one guy saying how he enjoys a good game if galaga when everything is clicking well and then it just went off into some rants of which games are better and why.

[CraftyMech]

Galaga! Galaga!

Last night I fired up my Namco Galaga/Ms Pac/Pac board and played a couple games. The 60-in-1 board version has some minor sound mixing issues (I never could get Mame to sound 100% either) so I can definitely tell the difference playing the genuine Namco board. Maybe that is just me, I am a freak for Galaga!

[Gray_Area]

Current MAME I think has accurate sound, though I don't know whether the adjustment functions have the precision needed for overall sonic accuracy. There were two or three machines at Zapcon, but I didn't play them.

Also, I found an old game, Baseball, at Zapcon that used a two-way dial control.

[yotsuya]

Current MAME I think has accurate sound, though I don't know whether the adjustment functions have the precision needed for overall sonic accuracy. There were two or three machines at Zapcon, but I didn't play them.

Also, I found an old game, Baseball, at Zapcon that used a two-way dial control.

Were you able to play that thing? I didn't see a way to coin it up.

[Gray_Area]

Also, I found an old game, Baseball, at Zapcon that used a two-way dial control.

Were you able to play that thing? I didn't see a way to coin it up.

I didn't bother.