Electrical Issues: Hatch Lift - Battletech Pod - Tail Gate Lift Motor

[kahlid74]

So I'll post at some point my progress on the Battletech Pod but one of the things I was looking at as I have fun with this project is an automated Hatch.  As I started diving deeper I found Boat hatch lifts but they were in the $200-400 range which I didn't want to spend.  I visited some local junkyards and came across a 2007 Honda Odyssey Touring Power Tail Gate Lift Motor fully intact with all parts and working when removed for $40 bucks.

So now my question comes down to wiring/powering/intelligence required to utilize.  It's got two hook ups.  One that connects directly to the motor and one that looks like it goes to a control engine of some sort.  I'm guessing 12volt (since it's a car part) and maybe 5-10 amps to make the motor work.  So my next question comes down on how to identify the control engine and how to make it actually work.

Anyone have any thoughts?  Any EE's have an idea how to reverse engineer it?

[kahlid74]

It looks like one of the harnesses goes to the motor and the other to the electromagnetic clutch.  Any thoughts/help is greatly appreciated.  Here's some pictures:

[HaRuMaN]

Hmm.  That's interesting.  I'm guessing you would have to power the clutch to engage it, then power the motor to move the lift.  Not sure why they designed it that way, though.

[kahlid74]

Hmm.  That's interesting.  I'm guessing you would have to power the clutch to engage it, then power the motor to move the lift.  Not sure why they designed it that way, though.

I was talking with my car friend and as we talked about it we came to some idea of what we thought maybe it was doing.  The idea being any hindrance observed the clutch reverses the movement.  So if the motor was closing and closes on something it stops and then reverses.

So my big challange would be to identify whether it's just a straight up dumb on/off to the clutch/motor or whether there is some other intelligence going on.

[lilshawn]

the clutch locks the motor in it's current position. you must energize the clutch to release the motor.

it's normal operation would be to engage the clutch/motor and open the liftgate or door. once it's finished the motor and clutch disengage and the door is locked open... to close, they reverse to polarity of the motor and engage the clutch...the door closes.

this is designed this way so the door/hatch doesn't slowly close after the power is removed from the motor due to the weight of the door.

[kahlid74]

the clutch locks the motor in it's current position. you must energize the clutch to release the motor.

it's normal operation would be to engage the clutch/motor and open the liftgate or door. once it's finished the motor and clutch disengage and the door is locked open... to close, they reverse to polarity of the motor and engage the clutch...the door closes.

this is designed this way so the door/hatch doesn't slowly close after the power is removed from the motor due to the weight of the door.

That makes even more sense as the clutch arm has teeth almost like a rack and pinion setup.  I found a link that has all the electrical harness information for the Odyssey 2007 touring so I have printouts of the harness so now to wire.

So I would need +/- for both the clutch and the motor.  Then i would need another line to the motor to tell it what direction/polarity right?  What would I then send to the clutch?  An engage/disengage?  Would I send direction to the clutch as well?

Here's what I believe is the wiring harness:

[BadMouth]

It sounds like there is a real danger of getting locked inside this pod. 

[lilshawn]

It sounds like there is a real danger of getting locked inside this pod. 

LOL no doubt!

in all seriousness, there looks to be enough wires there that the limit switches are built into the motor drive assy. the pinout there isn't much help now is it.

the clutch is a give in, so no problems there. 2 wires, bam.

going to have to get out the old voltmeter and look for a couple of wires (heavier gauge probably) that attach to the motor.

[kahlid74]

It sounds like there is a real danger of getting locked inside this pod. 

LOL no doubt!

in all seriousness, there looks to be enough wires there that the limit switches are built into the motor drive assy. the pinout there isn't much help now is it.

the clutch is a give in, so no problems there. 2 wires, bam.

going to have to get out the old voltmeter and look for a couple of wires (heavier gauge probably) that attach to the motor.

Copy that.  What do I look for specifically?  Is there a voltage amount in resistance I'm looking for?  I'm familiar with the voltmeter but not 100% so I'm not entirely sure how I see what a pin does on a motor when hooking up the voltmeter.

[BadMouth]

You know the yellow wires go to the clutch and black is probably ground.
If one of the remaining wires is thicker than the others, it's probably power.
That leaves the remaining two as controls.

If you popped the little control box apart, it would be easier to tell.

[lilshawn]

no, the 2 pin connector is the clutch.

[BadMouth]

no, the 2 pin connector is the clutch.

The one going to the motor in the pics has red and blue wires and the connector is brown, which matches the 2 pin connector in the pinout.
The loom coming from the clutch looks like it has 2 yellow wires going into the main connector, although now that I look at it closer, I'm not sure the pins are going to the correct positions.

 

[TopJimmyCooks]

open the pod bay door, hal.

I can't do that, Dave.

[lilshawn]

oh, you may be right, i'mma have to look at this on my big screen when i get home, this piddly 15" i got at work, i can't see the whole thing.

[SithMaster]

open the pod bay door, hal.

I can't do that, Dave.

Needs a panic button.

[danny_galaga]

I would bet my left nut there are limit switches in it. Much like there are self parking switches in wiper motors. I would NOT hold any sway on colour of wires. Colour means nothing in the world of factory automotive wiring...

[Le Chuck]

Wiring woes aside this is a great re-purposing project, just make sure you have a wag bag and an MRE in the pod incase you have to wait for rescue.  You don't live alone do you?

We're gonna miss Kahlid   

[lilshawn]

Cragslist - Used Battletech Pod arcade videogame

comes with realistic skeleton sealed inside.

 $500 OBO

[kahlid74]

So the hatch door would be all wood, and since the inside of the POD is ~3 feet, I can ball up and then kick out pretty damn hard so if I ever got into a bind I would just kick the door down.  It's also too wide to move out of the door, so it would come standard with the purchase of the house including skeleton.

Okay, so joking aside here's where we get to the nitty gritty.  Two harness's:
MOTOR:
The motor has NO intelligence.  It has two wires, Blue and RED.  It's Drive Control Unit A:




So here's a wiring map so far:
Motor:
1). RED -> Green -> PTG-
2). Blue -> Red -> PTG+

Clutch:
1). Yellow -> Blue -> CLU+
2). -----
3). Yellow -> Grey -> CLU-
4). Pink -> Purple/White -> SVCC
5). Green -> Purple -> SENA
6). White -> Grey/Blue -> SENB
7). ----
8 ). Black -> Pink/Blue -> SEGA

So the power and polarity I have now, the question is what do SVCC/SENA/SENB/SEGA do.  They all hook into the Power Tailgate Control Unit so understanding this best is the key.

[TopJimmyCooks]

Okay, so joking aside here's where we get to the nitty gritty. 

Stop joking about getting stuck inside the pod, Hal.

I can't do that, Khalid74.

[HaRuMaN]

I'm gonna miss kahlid...

[BadMouth]

my GUESS:
SVCC = Sensor Voltage
SENA = Sensor A
SENB = Sensor B
SEGA = mount everything on a Afterburner Deluxe base for full motion (or maybe sensor ground) EDIT: or sensor gate, as in don't move it if latched.

This thread popped up when I searched for this stuff the other day.
http://www.odyclub.com/forums/27-diy-modifications/80947-add-oem-power-tailgate-rearview-camera-odyssey-07-project.html
It shows a left and right sensor. (It also shows a separate drive unit)


You have no need for such safety sensors!
Just start throwing some voltage to the motor and clutch already. 

[kahlid74]

(It also shows a separate drive unit)

Thanks for the idea of where to get started.  It's not actually a seperate drive motor, but instead the closing motor, for the latch inside the door.  I saw it when I was looking at the tech specification sheets for the Odyssey.

I got home today and removed the extended arm and wired up all the voltage from the tech specifications sheets (- to line/hot, + to com) and then used a computer power supply's 12v lead for the clutch and the motor.  I then used a power strip to turn it on and off:





So when I let the arm go until it hits it dies hard and won't turn back on again until I completely break the circuit and then re-establish it.  Even the PS won't turn back on until I unplug/re-plug it.

So here's my questions now:
1). How do I get it to go in reverse?  Change the polarity?
2). The sensors I imagine will stop it, so I just hook a wire up to one of the SENA and then to the ground and when it's close to the end I complete the circuit?  This maybe isn't as much of a question as it is something I'm going to try

[BadMouth]

So here's my questions now:
1). How do I get it to go in reverse?  Change the polarity?
2). The sensors I imagine will stop it, so I just hook a wire up to one of the SENA and then to the ground and when it's close to the end I complete the circuit?  This maybe isn't as much of a question as it is something I'm going to try

1) yup.

2) The sensors are only hooked up to the clutch.  Making the sensors engage or disengage may stop the movement, but it isn't going to stop the motor.
    I imagine the sensors are triggered when something is immediately in front of the hatch and about to be struck.  Then the clutch disengages and the door stops moving and a brain somewhere else tells the motor to reverse direction.  (all speculation  )  Anyone have an odyssey?

If this thing is going to be PC controlled, I'd go ahead and get a pololu simple motor controller and add your own limit switches to the mechanism itself.
Then you could adjust speed, braking, etc from your PC.  A pololu servo controller and a relay could be used to engage and disengage the clutch.
A script could then be written to make the canopy behave however you want.

If it's just goint to run off a switch, you can wire up a DPDT toggle switch to reverse the polarity and put a limit switch inline with the power for each direction.
The switches will have to be able to handle the current though.  This is how I wired up my rotating monitor temporarily while working out the bugs.
Been meaning to draw up a daigram for DaOldMan's circuits thread in the mrotate forum.

If the thing moves freely without the clutch engaged, the clutch can act as a safety mech.  When power is cut to the clutch, the canopy can be manually lifted.

[kahlid74]

So here's my questions now:
1). How do I get it to go in reverse?  Change the polarity?
2). The sensors I imagine will stop it, so I just hook a wire up to one of the SENA and then to the ground and when it's close to the end I complete the circuit?  This maybe isn't as much of a question as it is something I'm going to try

1) yup.

2) The sensors are only hooked up to the clutch.  Making the sensors engage or disengage may stop the movement, but it isn't going to stop the motor.
    I imagine the sensors are triggered when something is immediately in front of the hatch and about to be struck.  Then the clutch disengages and the door stops moving and a brain somewhere else tells the motor to reverse direction.  (all speculation  )  Anyone have an odyssey?

If this thing is going to be PC controlled, I'd go ahead and get a pololu simple motor controller and add your own limit switches to the mechanism itself.
Then you could adjust speed, braking, etc from your PC.  A pololu servo controller and a relay could be used to engage and disengage the clutch.
A script could then be written to make the canopy behave however you want.

If it's just goint to run off a switch, you can wire up a DPDT toggle switch to reverse the polarity and put a limit switch inline with the power for each direction.
The switches will have to be able to handle the current though.  This is how I wired up my rotating monitor temporarily while working out the bugs.
Been meaning to draw up a daigram for DaOldMan's circuits thread in the mrotate forum.

If the thing moves freely without the clutch engaged, the clutch can act as a safety mech.  When power is cut to the clutch, the canopy can be manually lifted.

Reverse the polarity of the clutch or the motor or both?  When the motor/clutch are off the rack and pinion still slide, so it can be worked manually for sure.

My thoughts were to control it with an Arduino hooked up to a keypad on the outside and a DPDT switch inside.  So when inside the cabinet you can manually raise/lower it but when outside you have to enter the code to get into the pod.  I've got all sorts of cool ideas for immersion with this pod making use of my 3D printers etc. so it would be fun to do these types of things.

[PL1]

If it's just goint to run off a switch, you can wire up a DPDT toggle switch to reverse the polarity and put a limit switch inline with the power for each direction.

Here's a diagram I drew up a while back for Tony.silveira in this post.



Feel free to use/modify however you see fit.


Scott

[BadMouth]

Reverse the polarity of the clutch or the motor or both?  When the motor/clutch are off the rack and pinion still slide, so it can be worked manually for sure.

Reverse polarity of the motor.  I'm assuming the clutch is like an air conditioner compressor clutch in a car, it's either engaged(powered) or disengaged (not powered).
It would not have a reverse.  It most likely just engages and disengages the motor's motion from the lift mechanism (via a powerful electromagnet).

If it did flip the gearing in the mechanism somehow to reverse direction, I'm not sure if it would still be called a clutch.

If you have the arduino know how, go for it!
I'm sure there are lots of resources out there concerning controlling motors.
I'd like to tinker with that stuff "someday".

[kahlid74]

Copy that Badmouth.

PL1, what are the limit switches for?

When I get home today I've got a spare DPDT switch I'll hook up and give it a go.

So now the big question, TORQUE.  On the Van, the motor, while using 20-40 AMPS doesn't really do the heavy lifting, the struts do.  So now the question would be do I need to incorporate struts into the hatch to make sure it goes up/down effortlessly.  The door will be wood, so it won't be too heavy, but it will still be heavy.

Then the next question comes down to the stress the hatch will be under when moving/stable in an upright position.  The hatch would be of an L design meaning the joint would have to be super re-enforced.  Some good wood glue and joints I assume would be fine but I wonder if I should use a piece of sheet metal bent 90 degrees for stabilization. 

[BadMouth]

If you happen to live anywhere near an airplane graveyard, you might be able to get an actual canopy cheaper than you think.
From what I understand, aircraft parts have to be retired after so many hours and are only worth their weight in scrap because they aren't allowed to be used again on a different aircraft.

[kahlid74]

If you happen to live anywhere near an airplane graveyard, you might be able to get an actual canopy cheaper than you think.
From what I understand, aircraft parts have to be retired after so many hours and are only worth their weight in scrap because they aren't allowed to be used again on a different aircraft.

It's a good idea but it won't work based on how the POD is deigned, being one of original concept to the VR 3.0 pods.

[PL1]

PL1, what are the limit switches for?

Video from Griffindodd's monitor rotation tests show limit switches being hit by the washer/bolt.



The limit switches are there because your motor/actuator has a longer travel distance than it takes to open/close the hatch or turn the monitor.

The switches are wired to the Normally Closed (NC) contact.  When not pressed, they are in the closed green position.  When pressed, they are in the open red position.

Your hatch starts in the fully up position with the upper limit switch pressed.

When you press down on the DPDT, the + voltage is applied through the lower limit switch to the "Down When +" and ground is applied to the "Up When +".

As you hold the switch down, the motor lowers the hatch until it presses the lower limit switch.

When the hatch presses the switch, the NC terminal is disconnected from the common (red position) which stops the motor from going lower even if you are still holding the switch down.

When you press up on the on the DPDT, the + voltage is applied through the upper limit switch to the "Up When +" and ground is applied to the "Down When +".

As you hold the switch up, the motor raises the hatch until it presses the upper limit switch.

When the hatch isn't all the way up or down, you can move it up or down at will since both limit switches are closed. (green position)



Long lever arm microswitches will give you a more precise adjustment of the stopping point.  Avoid nub microswitches, they lack the desired travel between actuation and bottoming out so you don't damage the switch.

If possible, rig two bolts so one head hits the upper limit switch and the other one hits the lower switch. 

Use a tee nut to hold the bolt and a second nut tightened against the tee nut to lock the bolt in place


Scott

[kahlid74]

I would have to find limit switches that support 20-40 amps at 12 volt.  Interesting idea.

[BadMouth]

I would have to find limit switches that support 20-40 amps at 12 volt.  Interesting idea.

I'm having trouble believing that thing draws that much current, especially if it had gas struts helping it.

[kahlid74]

I would have to find limit switches that support 20-40 amps at 12 volt.  Interesting idea.

I'm having trouble believing that thing draws that much current, especially if it had gas struts helping it.

I agrees completely but I was just going off the electrical troubleshooting guide from Honda.

[PL1]

I would have to find limit switches that support 20-40 amps at 12 volt.  Interesting idea.

Just looked for high amperage limit switches.      

You'll save a LOT of money changing this circuit to use relays to connect the high amperage up and down power to the motor.

Use a SPDT switch with up connected through the upper limit switch to the coil of the relay(s) connecting the high amperage power supply to the motor in the up direction.

The SPDT switch down is connected through the lower limit switch to the coil of the relay(s) connecting the high amperage power supply to the motor in the down direction.

The ground connections on the relay coils are always connected to ground.


Scott

[lilshawn]

you can use a regular microswitch and just have it go through a relay.

but also don't forget, your not trying to lift a 75lb door either... voltmeter is your best friend... hook it up and load down the motor and see what kind of amps it draws. i'll bet it's under 8 amps. ALRIGHT PEOPLE BETS ARE ON!

[kahlid74]

I used the Killawatt power meter last night and with no load, it's at 2 AMP.  I found a 20 amp 12volt DPDT Rocker switch and a bunch of 40amp 12volt relay's so I've got em all on order with arrival tomorrow.  This afternoon/evening I need to build the door and affix the motor to the top of the pod.  Building this door is going to be tricky because of the weird angles on the side.  The wife is out of town for 4 days and the little man is at his grandparents for the next two days so I've got lots of build time.  I'm going to hit up the junkyard today looking for struts.

[kahlid74]

So the top part of the hatch is now working as expected.


Rocker switch and relays have arrived.  Electrical wiring to commence.

I've cut the Side door but it needs a little trimming to fit.  The width was calculated wrong so I've got a 4x12 rectangle in the bottom left that is open.  If the current door fits/works I'll just affix another piece with an extension/wood glue/bondo

The motor arm is strong enough to lift the wood but when I hooked it up and tried it once I noticied that the arm moved away from the board in a slant, which since I affixed it to the wood with bolts got very tough about 50-85 degrees up.  The issue was the arm connects to the motor on a 45 degree slant, which is fine if it didn't move but when moves with the wood it moves out to the left, resulting in an angry motor.  To semi-resolve this I simply tilted the left side of the motor up, to where it's kind of slanted and the slant on the motor is more closely associated with a 70-80 degree above 0.

The motion up is a jerk at the start because it's easy but as it climbs it encounters resistance and becomes smooth.  The motion down is smooth until about 35-40 degrees above 0 and then it comes down hard.  I associate this to the fact that I can move the track on the motor moderately easy, which makes sense since you can also open the lift gate by hand.  So it's 100% confirmed that I will need struts to let the door close smoothly without force and also lift smoothly at the first phase.  I assume once I add the side door the motion up will be smooth with all the weight associated.

So now to find struts.  At the junkyard most are ballpoint, which creates a problem, since I really need the plate style.  Additionally it's anywhere in the range of 15 to -15 degrees out, and all of these struts are firmly in their associated cars.  The motor was easily removed with two bolts but these struts I'll have to take apart lots of paneling and I just don't want to be out there spending so much time doing that.  I might take a trip back and check it out again.

[BadMouth]

Cool.  I want one to mess around with!
I was thinking it would be inside the pod, like on the van.
Nice move putting it on top.

The motion up is a jerk at the start because it's easy but as it climbs it encounters resistance and becomes smooth.  The motion down is smooth until about 35-40 degrees above 0 and then it comes down hard.  I associate this to the fact that I can move the track on the motor moderately easy, which makes sense since you can also open the lift gate by hand.  So it's 100% confirmed that I will need struts to let the door close smoothly without force and also lift smoothly at the first phase.  I assume once I add the side door the motion up will be smooth with all the weight associated.

The Pololu software allows you to start the motor out slow and brake as it nears the limit switches.
I imagine people have accounted for this with the Arduino as well.

As long as the motor isn't overloaded by the door, you could most likely smooth out the motion in software.

They also make adjustable gas struts, but I've never used them.

[kahlid74]

Cool.  I want one to mess around with!
I was thinking it would be inside the pod, like on the van.
Nice move putting it on top.

The motion up is a jerk at the start because it's easy but as it climbs it encounters resistance and becomes smooth.  The motion down is smooth until about 35-40 degrees above 0 and then it comes down hard.  I associate this to the fact that I can move the track on the motor moderately easy, which makes sense since you can also open the lift gate by hand.  So it's 100% confirmed that I will need struts to let the door close smoothly without force and also lift smoothly at the first phase.  I assume once I add the side door the motion up will be smooth with all the weight associated.

The Pololu software allows you to start the motor out slow and brake as it nears the limit switches.
I imagine people have accounted for this with the Arduino as well.

As long as the motor isn't overloaded by the door, you could most likely smooth out the motion in software.

They also make adjustable gas struts, but I've never used them.

The initial idea was inside but once I actually looked at it, the part that went up with a curve wasn't practical at all.  So I removed it, then I wound up grinding a bunch of the arm down and I then settles on the arm and bottom attachment.