Exciting looking emulation portable - GCW:Zero. Now kickstarted

[opt2not]

I've already posted what I'll be playing here in this thread.  Go find it.
Also the only contradiction was the HDMI comment. Which I owned up to.

Are you going to own up to being an elitist ---tallywhacker--- who hasn't contibuted anything but negative baseless remarks since you joined this forum?  Probably not.
Come back to me when you've contibuted something useful. I'm over it.

In more relivent news: Duke3D port!!


I really stoked to get the GCW.

[tris_d]

What do you mean ugly sprite scaling? Because the screen is large so all the game would get scaled? There is powerful GPU there to anti-alias all that, smooth the whole screen. Plus, lots of emulator i think have some post-rendering filters like scan lines effect and such, just like on a PC.

Exactly, ugly. You'll never going to be able to get it looking like it did with those filters. Beleive me, I've put together a handful of mame cabs, working on a couple more at the moment (all posted here). I've exausted my patience with trying to get the original look on LCDs. This is why a majority of people on this forum build cabinets with an ArcadeVGA (in conjunction with soft15khz) hooked up to a CRT. At least, the good ones.
I really don't want to get into this debate yet again, there are a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- ton of threads about this already.

Native resolutions on a small screen is fine by me.

Welcome to the forum. Have a look around.

Actually, that is quite large. That's tablet size I realize now. It looks smaller on the photos.

Ok, how about this then, seems close to PSP format and design:


http://www.aliexpress.com/item/JXD-S602-4-3-Android-4-0-Handheld-Game-Console-Capacitive-touch-screen-Tablet-PC-WiFi/736086857.html

* Screen size: 4.3 inch (480x272)
* ARM Cortex A8 1GHz CPU, POWERVR SGX531 GPU
* 512MB DDR3 RAM, 4GB internal storage
* shoulder L & R buttons, D-pad, analog stick, G-sensor
* Support HDMI TV-out
* USB 2.0, Micro TF Card max. 32GB
* Wi-Fi 802.11 b/g/n

$63.58


I know that's good GPU, I have several devices with very similar hardware and this should run all the emulators at full speed no problem, with exception only to some MAME games. I think this could be quite a bit better buy than GCW.

[Singapura]

I have one of these: and despite the initial bad reviews, I found that it plays most of the retro console games flawlessly. Even better, the updated version of Final Fantasy III is the best I played on any console. The analogue sticks are as good as my PSP and the screen is nice enough to even surf and watch videos. Only the battery life sucks big time (3 hours tops). Mame works but I prefer a real stick anyway.

[404]

I've already posted what I'll be playing here in this thread.  Go find it.
Also the only contradiction was the HDMI comment. Which I owned up to.

Are you going to own up to being an elitist ---tallywhacker--- who hasn't contibuted anything but negative baseless remarks since you joined this forum?  Probably not.
Come back to me when you've contibuted something useful. I'm over it.

In more relivent news: Duke3D port!!


I really stoked to get the GCW.

Interesting... So because i haven't contributed anything (at least in your eyes), that makes me an elitist ---tallywhacker---. Quite an amusing comment really. I also find it rather amusing that instead of finding stronger debate points for the very subjects YOU brought up, you resort to petty and childish insults.

Now on to the allegations of "negative, baseless remarks" since I've joined the forum: I joined about 1.5 years ago to learn a bit more about the fine art of building arcade machines. That was long before there was a GCW and can't remember ever spending my time making constant "negative, baseless remarks" like you said.

 Onto the so called contributions i haven't made. I admit I'm far from an expert wood worker and/or mame expert. I've actually worked with a number of developers to port emulators for various home consoles in the past. Not to mention a slew of other homebrew projects. I also helped document a number of Igenic soc based hardware which are all part of the extended dingoo family. Nearly all of them now coincidentally can run a port of Dingux . Could all of that been done without me? Sure. I'd like to think i had a tiny hand played in all of that though.

[opt2not]

Damn I miss pbj. I don't have nearly half the nose for sniffing out bs as he did.

[404]

Damn I miss pbj. I don't have nearly half the nose for sniffing out bs as he did.

Quite amusing really. You must really think those petty jabs are going to get at me. That's fine, I'm an adult with thick skin. Keep at it.

I never told you or anyone here not to buy anything. You can waste your dime on whatever you want. You got offended when i pointed out just how un-special the device is in a broader scope of things and how lame the team behind the portable is.

[tris_d]

I never told you or anyone here not to buy anything. You can waste your dime on whatever you want. You got offended when i pointed out just how un-special the device is in a broader scope of things and how lame the team behind the portable is.

How about we decide on two more competing devices then google up benchmarks for all three and let numbers speak for themselves? I think absolute winner would be one of those Android gamepads with Cortex A9 Dual 1.5GHz + mali400 GPU, there is one with 5'' screen for around $70. Can you beat that?

[Bender]

Like Randy indicated
it will all come down to support
I think there are some nice things happening with the GCW
I also think it will be a nice boost to the community that there will be a 1,500 or so in the hands of users all at once

[RandyT]

How about we decide on two more competing devices then google up benchmarks for all three and let numbers speak for themselves? I think absolute winner would be one of those Android gamepads with Cortex A9 Dual 1.5GHz + mali400 GPU, there is one with 5'' screen for around $70. Can you beat that?

Can you find a link to this unit?  I haven't seen one with these specs in that price range.

The thing that still rubs me a bit with these is the fact that the physical controls are layered onto the touchscreen control scheme for most games.  It may work fine, but it seems a bit "hacky" to me, and seeing a visual confirmation of what button is being pressed, or where the stick is being moved, layered over game graphics is annoying.  I know some applications allow them to be turned off, but Android is primarily touch screen oriented, so that pretty much means that devices with physical controls are the "oddballs" as far as support from developers is concerned.  I also firmly believe that any application which has to run under the Android OS will have more breathing room under Linux, due to the number of background processes, etc.   So that, in my mind, says good things about the prospects for a device like the GCW:Zero.  So long as it has good code, support , and a fast processor, it should be able to do better than Android given equal specs.  Of course the lack of any of those could cripple it, so all we can do is wait and see what happens.

[404]

I have one of these: and despite the initial bad reviews, I found that it plays most of the retro console games flawlessly. Even better, the updated version of Final Fantasy III is the best I played on any console. The analogue sticks are as good as my PSP and the screen is nice enough to even surf and watch videos. Only the battery life sucks big time (3 hours tops). Mame works but I prefer a real stick anyway.

Friend of mine who ended up being shipped a review sample of the JXD wii-u gamepad like device was very close to getting one of those archos units. I do feel that the Eurogamer review of the device was way too harsh and it almost felt like they simply blindly compared it to gaming on touch screen controls without any regard for gamers that will flat out refuse to play touch screen games because of the sheer lack of physical controls.

How about we decide on two more competing devices then google up benchmarks for all three and let numbers speak for themselves? I think absolute winner would be one of those Android gamepads with Cortex A9 Dual 1.5GHz + mali400 GPU, there is one with 5'' screen for around $70. Can you beat that?

Have to respectfully disagree. Not because i think those specs aren't strong enough etc but simply because i just feel that it's always entirely up to the end user. I have more than one igenic powered device. I don't need to shill out to a shady group for another one. I have android devices and chances are, if i were to really analyze things, i could come up with the same conclusion as to why i don't need another android device either. It boils down to what the end user wants, their price point and what's the most enjoyable for them.

 Because I don't feel like the GCW is worth my time and money doesn't mean i won't defend the right of the blindest fanboy to spend his money on one. It's their choice and i feel that android is really no different in that respect. There are some people that simply don't like the android platform. It's entirely their choice.

[tris_d]

Can you find a link to this unit?  I haven't seen one with these specs in that price range.

I couldn't find any 5 inch with 1.5GHz, I probably made a mistake. The smallest one with 1.5GHz seem to be 7 inch. Still, 1GHz should be quite enough. Format and size of this one seem close to PS Vita, you can see on YouTube how it (JXD S5110) runs N64, PS1 and other emulators. I fast-watched several videos and it all seems fine, also good reviews regarding build quality.


http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Factory-price-for-Hot-selling-JXD-S5110-Android4-0-game-console-WIFI-OTG-4G-Game-Console/642166478.html

The thing that still rubs me a bit with these is the fact that the physical controls are layered onto the touchscreen control scheme for most games.

Touchscreen input is separate from hard buttons input and input through USB. Like keyboard and mouse. If not used touchscreen could very well be disabled and not even supported by application at all.

It may work fine, but it seems a bit "hacky" to me, and seeing a visual confirmation of what button is being pressed, or where the stick is being moved, layered over game graphics is annoying.

If you are talking about virtual joysticks overlay, that can be turned off in every single emulator. People are quite aware, especially emulator developers, that people might wanna play games with external controllers.

I also firmly believe that any application which has to run under the Android OS will have more breathing room under Linux, due to the number of background processes, etc.

Perhaps on the phones, but these handhelds are build for gaming. There shouldn't be much processing going on in the background except for WiFi if activated. If games are running at full speed and frame-rates are stable rather than fluctuating then all is well, that's all it matters. I just wish people would turn on FPS counters when recording videos for YouTube so we would know how good, or bad, it actually is.

So that, in my mind, says good things about the prospects for a device like the GCW:Zero.  So long as it has good code, support , and a fast processor, it should be able to do better than Android given equal specs.  Of course the lack of any of those could cripple it, so all we can do is wait and see what happens.

Note that they don't have proper OpenGL drivers and so it's a question if they can use any graphic acceleration benefits from their GPU at all. I'd say if GCW can push, say Metal Slug to 100fps, then that Android above would run it over 150fps. I'll check later on YouTube if anyone bothered to perform any such benchmarks.

[RandyT]

I couldn't find any 5 inch with 1.5GHz, I probably made a mistake. The smallest one with 1.5GHz seem to be 7 inch. Still, 1GHz should be quite enough. Format and size of this one seem close to PS Vita, you can see on YouTube how it (JXD S5110) runs N64, PS1 and other emulators. I fast-watched several videos and it all seems fine, also good reviews regarding build quality.

Well, this device isn't a 1gz machine, although some have been able to overclock it to that.  You should probably read this thread from start to finish to see what people have been doing with that unit to try to get some decent performance out of it.  Basically, everything I described as needing to be done with the Chinese tablets.  It's worth noting that the same individual who is so enamored by the GCW:Zero, and has been playtesting for them and posting the videos, also owns this and at least one other Android handheld.  He posts in that thread.

If you are talking about virtual joysticks overlay, that can be turned off in every single emulator. People are quite aware, especially emulator developers, that people might wanna play games with external controllers.

Fortunately, the emulators seem to be able to get rid of it, but most of the normal android games don't.  Either that, or the folks posting the videos don't know how.

Perhaps on the phones, but these handhelds are build for gaming. There shouldn't be much processing going on in the background except for WiFi if activated. If games are running at full speed and frame-rates are stable rather than fluctuating then all is well, that's all it matters. I just wish people would turn on FPS counters when recording videos for YouTube so we would know how good, or bad, it actually is.

I'd like to see that too.  Some of the videos I've seen definitely have frame skipping, and if they don't, are moving a good clip slower than they should.  One glaring example was Soul Blade, which I used to play quite a bit.  Audio stutter also seemed to be a common issue.

Note that they don't have proper OpenGL drivers and so it's a question if they can use any graphic acceleration benefits from their GPU at all. I'd say if GCW can push, say Metal Slug to 100fps, then that Android above would run it over 150fps. I'll check later on YouTube if anyone bothered to perform any such benchmarks.

It's worth noting that the Android devices coming out of China probably aren't using legit licensed OpenGL drivers either, but they still have them.  I'm not a lawyer, but the very expensive commercial license seems to be tied to distribution with hardware.  It seems like it could be made "available" without officially distributing it with the hardware.  There's probably an option to provide their own interface to the functions on the chip and port to them where necessary.   I'm no OpenGL systems programmer, so I don't fully understand the challenges they are facing in this regard.  But as you seem to, could you clarify exactly what the issue is with this?

[opt2not]

Stretch-goal #3 has been hit! 
Good thing too, I didn't want to looking around for something to put this in while travelling.
Beats using a sock...

[tris_d]

Well, this device isn't a 1gz machine, although some have been able to overclock it to that.  You should probably read this thread from start to finish to see what people have been doing with that unit to try to get some decent performance out of it. 

85 pages is a bit too much. I don't think they would advertise it falsely. So anyway, how fast is it then? Can you give more specific link to the source of that information?

Basically, everything I described as needing to be done with the Chinese tablets.  It's worth noting that the same individual who is so enamored by the GCW:Zero, and has been playtesting for them and posting the videos, also owns this and at least one other Android handheld.  He posts in that thread.

Videos and reviews on YouTube suggest otherwise. I didn't see anyone complaining about anything like that, just a few of them mentioned there are better emulators than the ones that come with the device.

See here for example:


It looks pretty good to me, I'd say those PS1 and N64 games run at least 30fps if not full speed.

Fortunately, the emulators seem to be able to get rid of it, but most of the normal android games don't.  Either that, or the folks posting the videos don't know how.

I'm not even counting Android games.

I'd like to see that too.  Some of the videos I've seen definitely have frame skipping, and if they don't, are moving a good clip slower than they should.  One glaring example was Soul Blade, which I used to play quite a bit.  Audio stutter also seemed to be a common issue.

I think that's all matter of installing the right emulator. Good emulator if runs properly on a given device should not stutter even if frame-rate drops below 10fps.

It's worth noting that the Android devices coming out of China probably aren't using legit licensed OpenGL drivers either, but they still have them.  I'm not a lawyer, but the very expensive commercial license seems to be tied to distribution with hardware.  It seems like it could be made "available" without officially distributing it with the hardware.  There's probably an option to provide their own interface to the functions on the chip and port to them where necessary.   I'm no OpenGL systems programmer, so I don't fully understand the challenges they are facing in this regard.  But as you seem to, could you clarify exactly what the issue is with this?

It's Operating System thing, or better to say "Windowing System". There are drivers for Android, but there are no drivers for Linux. Just like there are drivers for Windows and X11, but there are no drivers for DOS or Linux console on desktop computers, other than basic frame-buffer. The challenge is to make hardware do things without blueprints which are kept secret. On desktop computers it's ATI and Nvidia who write drivers for their hardware and specific Operating Systems they choose, no one else could. It was a big problem for desktop Linux whole last decade until ATI and Nvidia decided to start making X11 drivers few years ago.

[RandyT]

85 pages is a bit too much. I don't think they would advertise it falsely. So anyway, how fast is it then? Can you give more specific link to the source of that information?

I suffered through it on my quest for knowledge, so you can too  .  One of the folks in that thread said theirs was locked at 600mhz, and required a kernal hack to go beyond that.  And that's another interesting thing you see in the promotional materials.  Either they don't say, or you see a reseller stating 1ghz, probably because, if you are lucky, you will be able to overclock it to that for as long as it lasts at that speed.

Videos and reviews on YouTube suggest otherwise. I didn't see anyone complaining about anything like that, just a few of them mentioned there are better emulators than the ones that come with the device.

The video is a piece of promotional material.  You don't think they are going to show you the ones which don't work great, do you?  But yes, it's not bad, but there is still frame skipping happening on a few of those.

It's Operating System thing, or better to say "Windowing System". There are drivers for Android, but there are no drivers for Linux. Just like there are drivers for Windows and X11, but there are no drivers for DOS or Linux console on desktop computers, other than basic frame-buffer. The challenge is to make hardware do things without blueprints which are kept secret. On desktop computers it's ATI and Nvidia who write drivers for their hardware and specific Operating Systems they choose, no one else could. It was a big problem for desktop Linux whole last decade until ATI and Nvidia decided to start making X11 drivers few years ago.

Sounds like they need to write their own API for the hardware and then make the means of communication with the API publicly available.  I'm not sure what type of legalities are involved there, so that's up to them to figure out.  According to their blog, they currently have  3 people working on the implementation of OpenGL, in whatever form it ends up as.  It sounds like they are going to have some money to throw at the issue, so it doesn't seem insurmountable.

Something else which I thought was interesting;  I found a low-cost Android tablet which uses the same processor slated for the GCW:Zero.  It's worth a view.  The tablet is pushing around 384000 pixels as compared to the only 76800 which will be required for the smaller screen size of the Zero.  Even on the higher-resolution tablet, it seems to do a nice job.  If they do manage to get the kinks worked out on the 3D engine, it really doesn't seem like good N64 and PSX emulation will be an impossibility.  Here's the tablet video:

[tris_d]

I suffered through it on my quest for knowledge, so you can too  .  One of the folks in that thread said theirs was locked at 600mhz, and required a kernal hack to go beyond that.  And that's another interesting thing you see in the promotional materials.  Either they don't say, or you see a reseller stating 1ghz, probably because, if you are lucky, you will be able to overclock it to that for as long as it lasts at that speed.

I find that very strange, however even 600MHz with such powerful GPU could quite possibly still run PSX and N64 emulators at good frame-rates, while without proper GPU drivers GCW could have 2GHz CPU and still perform worse. For 3D console emulators, OpenGL drivers are very important. However if GCW's CPU is indeed faster it could outperform JDX on all the other 2D emulators, under condition there is no any screen scaling or anti-aliasing.

Sounds like they need to write their own API for the hardware and then make the means of communication with the API publicly available.  I'm not sure what type of legalities are involved there, so that's up to them to figure out.  According to their blog, they currently have  3 people working on the implementation of OpenGL, in whatever form it ends up as.  It sounds like they are going to have some money to throw at the issue, so it doesn't seem insurmountable.

API is OpenGL ES, what they need is low level drivers for their particular GPU. It's equivalent of writing Nvidia drivers for DOS supporting full specs DirectX 11. On the other hand, it's mainly important just for PSX and N64, for textures, scaling and anti-aliasing, so most other emulators should run just fine even without it.

Something else which I thought was interesting;  I found a low-cost Android tablet which uses the same processor slated for the GCW:Zero.  It's worth a view.  The tablet is pushing around 384000 pixels as compared to the only 76800 which will be required for the smaller screen size of the Zero.  Even on the higher-resolution tablet, it seems to do a nice job.  If they do manage to get the kinks worked out on the 3D engine, it really doesn't seem like good  and PSX emulation will be an impossibility.  Here's the tablet video:

It's similar to comparing emulators on DOS and Windows some 10 years ago. You could have good DOS emulators for all except N64 and PSX for which you need Windows because unlike DOS it has graphic drivers fully utilizing GPU. GCW is "DOS", it needs "Windows" for which drivers are already written, it needs Android.

I wouldn't expect they would be able to ever write drivers, I don't think it ever happened before. And so I don't think PSX and N64 emulators will ever run on GCW better than 30fps, possibly much worse, while in the same time from what I've seen so far I expect JXD S5110 runs PSX and N64 at least 30fps.

[tris_d]

Out Run apparently runs at 15-20fps on GCW, that's terrible. GP2X can do better I think.

[RandyT]

I find that very strange, however even 600MHz with such powerful GPU could quite possibly still run PSX and N64 emulators at good frame-rates, while without proper GPU drivers GCW could have 2GHz CPU and still perform worse. For 3D console emulators, OpenGL drivers are very important. However if GCW's CPU is indeed faster it could outperform JDX on all the other 2D emulators, under condition there is no any screen scaling or anti-aliasing.

They pretty much stated that they are using as little scaling or anti-aliasing as possible.  It will be necessary with some, but very few.  But like you said, everything changes if they get the GPU going.

API is OpenGL ES, what they need is low level drivers for their particular GPU. It's equivalent of writing Nvidia drivers for DOS supporting full specs DirectX 11. On the other hand, it's mainly important just for PSX and N64, for textures, scaling and anti-aliasing, so most other emulators should run just fine even without it.

Well, that's a possibility.  If they can get enough information on how to talk to the chip (maybe not possible) they probably wouldn't need a full implementation. 

It's similar to comparing emulators on DOS and Windows some 10 years ago. You could have good DOS emulators for all except N64 and PSX for which you need Windows because unlike DOS it has graphic drivers fully utilizing GPU. GCW is "DOS", it needs "Windows" for which drivers are already written, it needs Android.

I wouldn't expect they would be able to ever write drivers, I don't think it ever happened before. And so I don't think PSX and N64 emulators will ever run on GCW better than 30fps, possibly much worse, while in the same time from what I've seen so far I expect JXD S5110 runs PSX and N64 at least 30fps.

The emulators in the early days always seemed to perform better under DOS, than in Windows on the same machine.  The same situation should apply here, when comparing to an emulator running under Linux and Android.  I understand that the issue is the OpenGL driver availability, but I get the feeling that it's further along than you might think.  Take a look at this post.  Ingenic looks to be on the job, perhaps at the behest of the GCW folks.  The files they linked to are no longer on the Ingenic site, so they were probably placed there for someone to have access to them, and removed when the links were discovered.  You'll note that it is a Linux folder with all of the OpenGl files in it for the Vivante GPU.  My guess is that if anyone has access to the information required to pull this off, it would be Ingenic.

[opt2not]

< 1.5hrs to go, and we've hit our 4th stretch goal over 230K!  Great job everyone who backed this!
At first I was worried we'd barely hit the initial target, but as word got out, more and more people got excited about this and it really shows that people know that this device is going to be awesome!

...now to start coming up with my list of what to play... 

[tris_d]

They pretty much stated that they are using as little scaling or anti-aliasing as possible.  It will be necessary with some, but very few.  But like you said, everything changes if they get the GPU going.

Many tried on PSX, PSP and PS3 for many years, and on desktop Linux for at least a decade, achieving at best some 30% of what it would be possible if ATI, Nvidia and Sony open sourced their drivers.

Well, that's a possibility.  If they can get enough information on how to talk to the chip (maybe not possible) they probably wouldn't need a full implementation. 

Unfortunately after seeing videos where SNES and Genesis emulators run at only 30-40fps it seems as if there is some hindrance in not using GPU properly. It's like GPU stands in a way as SNES on 30fps is very disappointing and worrying for 1GHz CPU. Doesn't seem right, at all.
 

The emulators in the early days always seemed to perform better under DOS, than in Windows on the same machine.  The same situation should apply here, when comparing to an emulator running under Linux and Android.

It's because until some point in time DOS could utilize video cards (VESA) just as well as Windows. Windows had some overhead and thus DOS could be faster. But all changed with 3D acceleration. Windows was so popular by the time no one provided DOS drivers anymore. And instead of to accelerate VESA it was abandoned to serve as some kind of fall-back or back-up functionality.

I'm afraid situation on mobile devices is different, I don't think there is even VESA on that GPU, they probably have nothing but some generic frame-buffer driver, and if that thing is slow it would not only hinder 3D emulators, it would impact all them, as unfortunately seems to be the case.

I understand that the issue is the OpenGL driver availability, but I get the feeling that it's further along than you might think.  Take a look at this post.  Ingenic looks to be on the job, perhaps at the behest of the GCW folks.  The files they linked to are no longer on the Ingenic site, so they were probably placed there for someone to have access to them, and removed when the links were discovered.  You'll note that it is a Linux folder with all of the OpenGl files in it for the Vivante GPU.  My guess is that if anyone has access to the information required to pull this off, it would be Ingenic.

For what device is that driver, some Android? If any Android device is using that particular Vivante GPU I think it would be easier to install complete Android ROM from some of those devices to GCW than to make just the video driver work on their system. People couldn't use Windows drivers to make Linux or DOS drivers, so I wouldn't hope much for anything like that. It sounds possible though, so maybe it's illegal.

It's also a question whether Ingenic or Vivante would even want GCW to have the drivers. Or maybe they just need to pay for them, I don't know. But I know Linux and homebrew on many consoles suffer the same problem for a while now, and with many people involved, yet without solution still.


By the way, I tested PSX emulator (FPse 0.10) on several 1GHz Android phones and they all could do Metal Gear Solid over 80fps. I played through whole 1st disc, with the damn touchscreen, even accelerometer. It took me some time and struggle but it was fun enough. It ran flawlessly. Great game.

[tris_d]

I meant to edit previous post, not reply to myself.

[RandyT]

Many tried on PSX, PSP and PS3 for many years, and on desktop Linux for at least a decade, achieving at best some 30% of what it would be possible if ATI, Nvidia and Sony open sourced their drivers.

Actually, I was referring to scaling of 2D , not 3D.

Unfortunately after seeing videos where SNES and Genesis emulators run at only 30-40fps it seems as if there is some hindrance in not using GPU properly. It's like GPU stands in a way as SNES on 30fps is very disappointing and worrying for 1GHz CPU. Doesn't seem right, at all.

It doesn't really seem "wrong" at this stage of development either.  Based on what I have been seeing, the focus seems to be more on getting things working, than getting the most speed possible.  It's actually the natural order of development.  1) make it work 2) optimize it so it works faster.  I think what you are seeing at the moment is fairly stock emulation software from the Dingoo, which is being tweaked to fix some issues.  It's doubtful that any substantial code optimizations have been done yet.   Looking at how well Quake2 runs, without a GPU, should be a pretty good indicator as to what the device is capable of on the number crunching side of things.
 

It's because until some point in time DOS could utilize video cards (VESA) just as well as Windows. Windows had some overhead and thus DOS could be faster. But all changed with 3D acceleration. Windows was so popular by the time no one provided DOS drivers anymore. And instead of to accelerate VESA it was abandoned to serve as some kind of fall-back or back-up functionality.

I know that there were accelerated VESA cards.  2D, mostly for speeding up mundane tasks like Excel and Word displays, but they did exist.  In any event, 3D acceleration is only important once you start looking at 3D consoles and fancy graphics scaling.  When VESA was still in serious play, 3D was in it's infancy.  In the very early days, some 3D cards didn't even do video, rather worked in conjunction with the video card in the system.  In those days, you didn't play 3D games, what few there were, under Windows (and we had to walk 2 miles in the snow, uphill in both directions, to get to school )  Also, emulation, and gaming in general,  was done is DOS because it was the only way at the time to get the speed required.  Eventually it became a reality in Windows, and we were all so impressed .

I'm afraid situation on mobile devices is different, I don't think there is even VESA on that GPU, they probably have nothing but some generic frame-buffer driver, and if that thing is slow it would not only hinder 3D emulators, it would impact all them, as unfortunately seems to be the case.

That's probably all they really have at the moment, and if that is the case, it's doing pretty well compared to what a lesser device would do with the same hindrances.  I really think we need to see what happens with this unit.  It's not even officially available, and it's being compared to an OS on it's eleventyith version with mature GPU drivers, and hundreds of millions of users.  We should give it a chance to crawl before we expect it to run.

For what device is that driver, some Android? If any Android device is using that particular Vivante GPU I think it would be easier to install complete Android ROM from some of those devices to GCW than to make just the video driver work on their system. People couldn't use Windows drivers to make Linux or DOS drivers, so I wouldn't hope much for anything like that. It sounds possible though, so maybe it's illegal.

It's also a question whether Ingenic or Vivante would even want GCW to have the drivers. Or maybe they just need to pay for them, I don't know. But I know Linux and homebrew on many consoles suffer the same problem for a while now, and with many people involved, yet without solution still.

You'd be surprised at the difference a $150,000 check to a Chinese manufacturer could make.  I'm guessing the other folks didn't try that route yet .

But I think you missed the point of that link I posted.  The OpenGL files were in a Linux folder on the Ingenic FTP site.  Maybe it was an error, or maybe it's a work in progress. 

[tris_d]

Actually, I was referring to scaling of 2D , not 3D.

Yes, 2D included. You need drivers for basics too, like plain video memory access, double buffering and vertical syncing. They don't seem to have direct access to even such basic functionality, otherwise SNES should perform way better.

It doesn't really seem "wrong" at this stage of development either.

Why do you think so, what are you comparing it with? I think graphics driver is the first thing they should have sorted out when developing gaming console, or look for some other platform with existing drivers. To me your optimism is kind of like hoping for DirectX drivers on DOS.

Based on what I have been seeing, the focus seems to be more on getting things working, than getting the most speed possible.  It's actually the natural order of development.  1) make it work 2) optimize it so it works faster.  I think what you are seeing at the moment is fairly stock emulation software from the Dingoo, which is being tweaked to fix some issues.  It's doubtful that any substantial code optimizations have been done yet.   Looking at how well Quake2 runs, without a GPU, should be a pretty good indicator as to what the device is capable of on the number crunching side of things.

Emulators are already optimized, they were previously on less powerful platforms, I think it's all about video drivers now. I'm afraid Quake port is false indicator as it uses 3D engine made and optimized for software rendering. I think it's no more demanding than SNES, so it too probably runs at around 30fps

I know that there were accelerated VESA cards.  2D, mostly for speeding up mundane tasks like Excel and Word displays, but they did exist.  In any event, 3D acceleration is only important once you start looking at 3D consoles and fancy graphics scaling.  When VESA was still in serious play, 3D was in it's infancy.

Forget N64 and PSX, GCW doesn't seem to even have direct access to video memory for basic 2D/pixels operations. I wonder if even empty screen without any CPU processing could be updated at 60fps. Has anyone done any proper benchmarks, are there any numbers?

That's probably all they really have at the moment, and if that is the case, it's doing pretty well compared to what a lesser device would do with the same hindrances.  I really think we need to see what happens with this unit.  It's not even officially available, and it's being compared to an OS on it's eleventyith version with mature GPU drivers, and hundreds of millions of users.  We should give it a chance to crawl before we expect it to run.

The point is why wait and hope if there is already better and cheaper handheld you could buy right now?

You'd be surprised at the difference a $150,000 check to a Chinese manufacturer could make.  I'm guessing the other folks didn't try that route yet .

Perhaps. But they don't even hint anywhere their intention is to ever have fully working drivers. They rather seem to be trying to justify the device is good without it. Maybe I missed it, have they made anywhere any more precise statements about what they hope would be the state of the video driver for actual release?

But I think you missed the point of that link I posted.  The OpenGL files were in a Linux folder on the Ingenic FTP site.  Maybe it was an error, or maybe it's a work in progress.

Android is Linux as well. Accelerated drivers are not written for kernels (usually), they are written for higher level GUI layer, like Windows, iOS, Xorg or Android. Anyway, what you pointed to seem like just some random people talking about some files specific to who knows what device. What GCW guys have to say about it? Did they make any statements about any of it other than that it's been worked on?

[RandyT]

Yes, 2D included. You need drivers for basics too, like plain video memory access, double buffering and vertical syncing. They don't seem to have direct access to even such basic functionality, otherwise SNES should perform way better.

OpenDingux has recently implemented double buffering, which is likely already implemented in the demos, as it looked like it took only a very small change to use.  But I can't be sure that they did it yet.  Vertical syncing doesn't speed up anything.  It makes things look better, but usually at a cost to frame rates.

Why do you think so, what are you comparing it with? I think graphics driver is the first thing they should have sorted out when developing gaming console, or look for some other platform with existing drivers. To me your optimism is kind of like hoping for DirectX drivers on DOS.

I remember hoping I could play a handful of real, true-to-arcade games at home as well.  Now there are thousands.   I also remember the original Windows, IBM XT's, the first Android phone, etc...  Things like this take time and resources, which is why I believe this little idea wasn't a "panhandling" scheme as earlier suggested, rather an understanding by an individual of what it takes to follow through on a project of this magnitude.   Unless you believe that GCW will "take the money and run", then optimism is warranted.  They raised nearly a quarter million dollars, not from investors, but from interested consumers.  To not do everything possible to make this idea succeed would be to ignore a real opportunity.  The demand has been demonstrated, now they need only to meet it, and they have a good head start.

Emulators are already optimized, they were previously on less powerful platforms, I think it's all about video drivers now. I'm afraid Quake port is false indicator as it uses 3D engine made and optimized for software rendering. I think it's no more demanding than SNES, so it too probably runs at around 30fps

I was referring to QuakeII, and I don't have the frame rate information you apparently do.  Regardless, it's still chugging along nicely on the hardware, which is something I can't say for the PC I ran it on back in the day, until I added an expensive graphics card.

But there are plenty of examples which show that the emulators still need tweaking.  One of the videos showed two different, but technologically very similar first person games being played.  One had major problems, while the other was moving smoothly and was very playable.  Obviously, there is still work to do on them.

The point is why wait and hope if there is already better and cheaper handheld you could buy right now?

Part of the fun is helping to push something in the direction you would like it to go, rather than settling for "almost".  I can tell that you are an Android fan.  I am as well, to an extent, but you didn't even want to read the 85 page thread identifying and discussing how to overcome the issues with that unit.

Perhaps. But they don't even hint anywhere their intention is to ever have fully working drivers. They rather seem to be trying to justify the device is good without it.

You are just making stuff up now .  Have you read the project blog on KickStarter?  From the 1/16/2013 entry;

"We are also working on the Open GL implementation we have a team of three dedicated developers working on it right now the driver is closed source but our hope is to very soon have an open source driver.

We are also working on USB 2.0 OTG but that is slow going. If you are a developer and interested in helping out the cause and have driver development experience in either USB or OpenGL, We could definitely use the assistance to implement these two features a lot quicker. If you are interested please contact me @ GCW@GCW-Zero.com"


It seems like the brunt of your condemnations revolve around the lack of an OpenGL driver.  Will you change your mind when they finish?

Android is Linux as well. Accelerated drivers are not written for kernels (usually), they are written for higher level GUI layer, like Windows, iOS, Xorg or Android. Anyway, what you pointed to seem like just some random people talking about some files specific to who knows what device. What GCW guys have to say about it? Did they make any statements about any of it other than that it's been worked on?

Ok, third time, it was in a LINUX folder on their site.  Android is layered over a supposedly now branched Linux Kernal, and I'm pretty sure they would have put Android files in an Android folder, not one labeled Linux, especially since, as you stated, OpenGL interacts with the Android layer, not the kernal.  But how does anyone know what that really was, other than an interesting reference to both Linux and OpenGL on the chip manufacturers site to indicate a possible link between the two where you stated none existed.

[tris_d]

OpenDingux has recently implemented double buffering, which is likely already implemented in the demos, as it looked like it took only a very small change to use.  But I can't be sure that they did it yet.  Vertical syncing doesn't speed up anything.  It makes things look better, but usually at a cost to frame rates.

1GHz and SNES runs at 40fps. Could it be any worse?

I remember hoping I could play a handful of real, true-to-arcade games at home as well.  Now there are thousands.   I also remember the original Windows, IBM XT's, the first Android phone, etc...  Things like this take time and resources, which is why I believe this little idea wasn't a "panhandling" scheme as earlier suggested, rather an understanding by an individual of what it takes to follow through on a project of this magnitude.

That's not it. This is very specific case of Linux not having video drivers. Look at all the failed attempts in the last ten years and you will see there is no single reason to hope and all the reasons to doubt they could ever write their own.

Unless you believe that GCW will "take the money and run", then optimism is warranted.  They raised nearly a quarter million dollars, not from investors, but from interested consumers.  To not do everything possible to make this idea succeed would be to ignore a real opportunity.  The demand has been demonstrated, now they need only to meet it, and they have a good head start.

They'll take the money and run.

I was referring to QuakeII, and I don't have the frame rate information you apparently do.  Regardless, it's still chugging along nicely on the hardware, which is something I can't say for the PC I ran it on back in the day, until I added an expensive graphics card.

Yes, Quake II. It also runs on 200MHz GP2X. Small screen can speed up software render, and then Quake II is about demanding as SNES emulator. So Quake II on 30fps, or even 60fps, in no way suggests PSX or N64 will do any better than 10fps.

But there are plenty of examples which show that the emulators still need tweaking.  One of the videos showed two different, but technologically very similar first person games being played.  One had major problems, while the other was moving smoothly and was very playable.  Obviously, there is still work to do on them.

One thing is to tweak emulators and completely different thing to write a video driver. Considering the drama Linux had with video drivers in the last ten years, and all the failed attempts, statistically I'd say they have around 1% chance to ever write anything even barely resembling proper video driver, with at most 30% of possible performance. That's your best case scenario.

Part of the fun is helping to push something in the direction you would like it to go, rather than settling for "almost".  I can tell that you are an Android fan.  I am as well, to an extent, but you didn't even want to read the 85 page thread identifying and discussing how to overcome the issues with that unit.

Becasue my work revolves around OpenGL I like Android for the simple fact it comes with video drivers, but incidentally that's also pretty much all it matters when it comes to performance of gaming consoles. If there is ever next generation GCW it will run on Android. There is no other choice, it must be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

I went through at least two dozen pages of that thread and saw no one is complaining about any general performance, just specific problems relating to custom ROMs and particular emulators/games. It runs 2D emulators at full speed, out of the box, N64 and PSX seem to run pretty good as well. Compared to GCW that's like night and day.

You are just making stuff up now .  Have you read the project blog on KickStarter?  From the 1/16/2013 entry;

"We are also working on the Open GL implementation we have a team of three dedicated developers working on it right now the driver is closed source but our hope is to very soon have an open source driver.

We are also working on USB 2.0 OTG but that is slow going. If you are a developer and interested in helping out the cause and have driver development experience in either USB or OpenGL, We could definitely use the assistance to implement these two features a lot quicker. If you are interested please contact me @ GCW@GCW-Zero.com"

What it says there is that they have no clue what to do about it. With GPU internal specs a driver could be written in a few weeks. They simply have no idea how that GPU works, how to use it. They need to reverse engineer it like MAME does with arcade PCBs, except GCW guys have most likely nowhere to even start with. I guess they are poking randomly around hoping to stumble onto something meaningful by trial and error. Give it up, assimilate.

It seems like the brunt of your condemnations revolve around the lack of an OpenGL driver.  Will you change your mind when they finish?

It's not just about OpenGL, it's complete video driver they are missing. Without it they don't have direct access to even most basic pixel and frame buffer operations, it's all interconnected and comes bundled together. Only hardware manufacturer could give them drivers, but it's highly likely even they don't have them, just like Nvidia doesn't have Linux console drivers for desktop computers. If they had proper drivers then performance should be similar to that Android tablet you pointed before, and only then it would be comparable to JXD, but as it is now it seems to score no more than even Caanoo or Dingoo.

Ok, third time, it was in a LINUX folder on their site. Android is layered over a supposedly now branched Linux Kernal, and I'm pretty sure they would have put Android files in an Android folder, not one labeled Linux, especially since, as you stated, OpenGL interacts with the Android layer, not the kernal.

Yes, Android drivers can easily end up in a folder named Linux. It's Linux toolchain, Linux SDK, Linux compilers... any of them could have categorized it as such at some level of their directory structure during development. In any case it's very random assumption whatever that was would be for console frame-buffer and of any use to GCW.

[RandyT]

I'm a bit naive at times, and it looks like this is one of them.  I had the impression we were having an honest discussion about possibilities, but it's now obvious to me that there is an agenda here, based on the fact that it's pretty clear that you found this thread on Google, and joined the forum solely to advocate for something you have vested interest in.

These processors and GPU's in tablets, handhelds, etc.. are simply advanced microcontrollers.  Someone who programs solely in high level languages, like C, Basic, Python, Perl, etc... would of course see things the way you see them.  To folks like this, no pre-existing high level libraries means no possibility of accessing features built into hardware.  Well, let me tell you that it doesn't work that way.  There are still programmers out there who code at the hardware level, and that's where these libraries originate.  There are high-level compilers for standard microcontrollers these days as well, but it is not uncommon for code which is timing sensitive, or performance oriented, or provides access to features for which there are no standard libraries, to be written in the native assembler.  At that level, functions and features of the hardware are directly accessible.  You state that they cannot do this, because there is no information available to do it.  I disagree that this is the case.  It does not at all seem unlikely to me that the core functions of the GPU are well known by Ingenic, and, of course, the GPU's creators, Vivante.

A little research into Vivante yields some valuable information.  First, while it has global headquarters located in California, it's obviously based in China.  The CEO's name is Wei-Jin Dai, and they have locations in Shanghai and Chengdu.  Their products are in many of the low-cost tablets and other devices originating in China, so there is obviously a strong alliance with chip manufacturers there.  What is more important is that they support OCP (no, not the one in Robocop.)  Here's the statement;

OCP
In 2008 Vivante became a member of the OCP International Partnership (OCP-IP). OCP-IP is a non-profit semiconductor industry consortium formed to administer the support, promotion and enhancement of the Open Core Protocol (OCP) specification. OCP is the only fully supported, openly licensed, complete interface socket for intellectual property (IP) cores. OCP addresses design, verification and testing issues common to IP core reuse in "plug-and-play" system-on-chip (SOC) products. Additional information is available at www.ocpip.org.   
 
I encourage you to read the white paper and provide your thoughts.  It appears to me that OCP is an open, unified interface which allows hardware developers access to core functionality of integrated components, while protecting IP.  As such, it is portable across multiple hardware platforms.  It looks to function in a similar, but more advanced, way to something like I2C, where there is a common communication methodology, regardless of the task the hardware on the other side of the communication protocol is designed to perform.  Membership and access to the documentation is free, even for commercial use, but requires paid membership to gain access to support and libraries. 

So your claims about IP and inaccessible hardware do not seem to be rooted in reality.  What the folks at GCW need to do, and are probably already doing, is write low level routines which provide whatever subset of the OpenGL protocol the system is likely to require.  This isn't something new, and projects like Mesa do something not so different for other hardware.  Their comment about their OpenGL implementation not being open source is telling.  It's likely that they are using a library for which they do not have, and cannot get the source code.  But regardless of the open-source status, this statement indicates that something is being implemented.

Based on the above, it's nowhere near as impossible, or even improbable, as you have claimed it to be.

[Malenko]

I'm a bit naive at times, and it looks like this is one of them.  I had the impression we were having an honest discussion about possibilities, but it's now obvious to me that there is an agenda here, based on the fact that it's pretty clear that you found this thread on Google, and joined the forum solely to advocate for something you have vested interest in.

What gave that away, 26 posts all in this thread and nothing anywhere else on the forum? Can someone remind me how to unsubscribe from a thread again? I keep clicking new replies and all I ever see is this train wreck at the top.

[RandyT]

What gave that away, 26 posts all in this thread and nothing anywhere else on the forum? Can someone remind me how to unsubscribe from a thread again? I keep clicking new replies and all I ever see is this train wreck at the top.

It's hard to tell sometimes, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt.  It could have been the first topic he saw and felt he had something to add.  But as time goes on, with no other interaction in other topics related to the forum, and his unwillingness to give that same benefit to anyone else, made it pretty clear.

I won't be wasting any more time with this one.  The cases have been made, and if the best anyone can come up with is "they are a ripoff company", with nothing to show which indicates this being the case, then all the discussion in the world won't change that belief.  GCW may or may not be, but there are no hard and fast indicators which show it to be true at this stage.

[HaRuMaN]

Smells like driverman's latest incarnation...

[yotsuya]

The lack of DRAMA! and near Engrish make me doubt it's our friendly neighborhood Driverman.

Edit: I went back and actually READ some of this postings..... I owe HaRuMaN a Hamm's. 

[tris_d]

I'm a bit naive at times, and it looks like this is one of them.  I had the impression we were having an honest discussion about possibilities, but it's now obvious to me that there is an agenda here, based on the fact that it's pretty clear that you found this thread on Google, and joined the forum solely to advocate for something you have vested interest in.

My attraction to this thread was about old vs. new MAME on today's mobile gaming platforms. I thought GCW could do what average 1GHz Android can, I expected they would at least have 2D hardware acceleration, but then I saw videos of Out Run at 15-20fps and SNES at 30-40fps.

These processors and GPU's in tablets, handhelds, etc.. are simply advanced microcontrollers.  Someone who programs solely in high level languages, like C, Basic, Python, Perl, etc... would of course see things the way you see them.  To folks like this, no pre-existing high level libraries means no possibility of accessing features built into hardware.  Well, let me tell you that it doesn't work that way.  There are still programmers out there who code at the hardware level, and that's where these libraries originate.  There are high-level compilers for standard microcontrollers these days as well, but it is not uncommon for timing sensitive, or performance oriented code, or access to features for which there are no standard libraries, to be written in the native assembler.  At that level, functions and features of the hardware are directly accessible.

Not for GPU. People have been trying hard to get accelerated drivers for Linux on many platforms, only for rare GPUs they managed to achieve something, which is at most 30% of their actual specs.

You state that they cannot do this, because there is no information available to do it.  I disagree that this is the case.  It does not at all seem unlikely to me that the core functions of the GPU are well known by Ingenic, and, of course, the GPU's creators, Vivante.

I said manufacturer is the only one who could help them, but if they don't release it to public then it's not 'available'.

A little research into Vivante yields some valuable information.  First, while it has global headquarters located in California, it's obviously based in China.  The CEO's name is Wei-Jin Dai, and they have locations in Shanghai and Chengdu.  Their products are in many of the low-cost tablets and other devices originating in China, so there is obviously a strong alliance with chip manufacturers there.  What is more important is that they support OCP (no, not the one in Robocop.)  Here's the statement;

OCP
In 2008 Vivante became a member of the OCP International Partnership (OCP-IP). OCP-IP is a non-profit semiconductor industry consortium formed to administer the support, promotion and enhancement of the Open Core Protocol (OCP) specification. OCP is the only fully supported, openly licensed, complete interface socket for intellectual property (IP) cores. OCP addresses design, verification and testing issues common to IP core reuse in "plug-and-play" system-on-chip (SOC) products. Additional information is available at www.ocpip.org.   

I encourage you to read the white paper and provide your thoughts.  It appears to me that OCP is an open, unified interface which allows hardware developers access to core functionality of integrated components, while protecting IP.  As such, it is portable across multiple hardware platforms.  It looks to function in a similar, but more advanced, way to something like I2C, where there is a common communication methodology, regardless of the task the hardware on the other side of the communication protocol is designed to perform.  Membership and access to the documentation is free, even for commercial use, but requires paid membership to gain access to support and libraries. 

I don't think "open" in their context means anything like "open source". So anyway, are you saying their GPU internal specs are available for download? Ok, show me the link. I think that's just some software framework they are selling.

So your claims about IP and inaccessible hardware do not seem to be rooted in reality.  What the folks at GCW need to do, and are probably already doing, is write low level routines which provide whatever subset of the OpenGL protocol the system is likely to require.

Do not seem to be rooted in reality? So how do I convince you?

This isn't something new, and projects like Mesa do something not so different for other hardware.

There you go. See what they have managed to accomplish in 10 years and you will realize there is little hope GCW could ever get even 30% out of their GPU, so most likely nothing.

Their comment about their OpenGL implementation not being open source is telling.  It's likely that they are using a library for which they do not have, and cannot get the source code.  But regardless of the open-source status, this statement indicates that something is being implemented.

They are mumbling, left you guessing instead of to say it straight: what, why, when and how. If they are writing the driver then they are the ones who decide whether it will be open source or not, yet they are referring to it as if it was someone else's  decision or consequence of some unforeseen but hopeful circumstances. I think their noses stretched a bit there. Mister Geppetto would be disappointed. 

Based on the above, it's nowhere near as impossible, or even improbable, as you have claimed it to be.

So I guess we place the bets now?

[opt2not]

  NOBODY CARES.

[RandyT]

I think their noses stretched a bit there. Mister Geppetto would be disappointed. 

Smells like driverman's latest incarnation...

You nailed it.  He just gave himself away. 

[opt2not]

My attraction to this thread was about old vs. new MAME on today's mobile gaming platforms.

This too... I'm assuming he created an account because Haze weighed in on the discussion about the state of Mame on these devices.

Damn, I got sucked into reading driverman's verbal diarrhea again. 

[Haze]

My attraction to this thread was about old vs. new MAME on today's mobile gaming platforms.

This too... I'm assuming he created an account because Haze weighed in on the discussion about the state of Mame on these devices.

Damn, I got sucked into reading driverman's verbal diarrhea again. 

I thought it was rather obvious at the point he seemed to switch sides completely, from bashing MAME to bashing the device.

Moreso when he tried to register at MAMEWorld, then register a second account just to agree with what he had posted with the first account.

To his credit, most of it was somewhat coherent this time, and not absolutely incorrect like usual.

[opt2not]

To his credit, most of it was somewhat coherent this time, and not absolutely incorrect like usual.

That's what threw me off. <sigh> I'm getting slow in my old age...

[Typefighter01]

Hey LazyCat, if every member of BYOAC will agree that the best way to play retro arcade games is on our Andriod cell phones, using old versions of MAME and using the built in accelerometer as the controls, will you promise to leave us alone

[yotsuya]

Driverman knows he locked up 2012 Troll of the Year and must be trying to solidify his base for '13.

[404]

in more related news, this elitist ---tallywhacker--- got his hands on the jxd s7300 and I'm not impressed with it either. 

[tris_d]

in more related news, this elitist ---tallywhacker--- got his hands on the jxd s7300 and I'm not impressed with it either. 

Can you tell us fps for PSX, N64, SNES... ?

MAME4droid, any glitching or sound crackling?