Simple removable control panels

[TopJimmyCooks]

Pogo pins! Oh wait - with minimum orders and shipping they're more expensive than another encoder!  Dang. 

Just want to see someone else break the ice before I buy some for switchcade. 

[spystyle]

Soldering is incredibly easy - if anyone wants a simple soldering tutorial with pics, let me know.

I'd love to see one if you are willing to do it. Thanks!

I'll do one in picture book style

edit : OK here it is :

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129317.msg1322370.html

[Xiaou2]

True, game cartridges use PCB edge connectors because they allow so many pins, but the controller connectors are actually much more similar to d-subs, especially the Genesis/Megadrive and Atari.

 The connectors on the Sega Master, Genesis, and Atari, is not easy to plug in... nor take out.   Its designed this way, so that your controller will not accidentally fall out while your playing.   Its the same with parallel cables.

 As for why they used them, no.. Im sorry, but its not merely because of the number of pins.   A dsub connector is more durable, because of its thicker shape.  Any downward pressure on an edge connector could cause the entire board to snap.  It would also take up a lot more space on a console, to use large pin edge connectors.   Cost was a main factor in why those three (and more) systems used that style of connector.  No need to make a new expensive mold.  And differing ports were probably first born due to style and better functionality.   Snes controllers are much smoother and easier to pop in and out.  They also match the color and style of the system.

 
 Finally, Id LOVE to see you pull off a complete example of a sliding click and lock control panel with a dsub connection.  The only way you will make it work reliably and consistently, is if you are a machinist, and or use precision CNC style rails.  As any bit of play in the x and y, will yield a problem.    An edge connector is much more forgiving in this respect.   

[rCadeGaming]

The connectors on the Sega Master, Genesis, and Atari, is not easy to plug in... nor take out.   Its designed this way, so that your controller will not accidentally fall out while your playing.   Its the same with parallel cables.

They're a little rougher to plug and unplug partly because it's a tight plastic on plastic fit.  It's not so bad with normal metal shelled d-subs, but they don't pop off either.

As for why they used them, no.. Im sorry, but its not merely because of the number of pins.  A dsub connector is more durable, because of its thicker shape.  Any downward pressure on an edge connector could cause the entire board to snap.  It would also take up a lot more space on a console, to use large pin edge connectors.   Cost was a main factor in why those three (and more) systems used that style of connector.  No need to make a new expensive mold.

I never said that the number of pins was the only reason, but thanks for the good arguments for d-subs here.

And differing ports were probably first born due to style and better functionality.   Snes controllers are much smoother and easier to pop in and out.  They also match the color and style of the system.

Sure, functional and aesthetic improvements were certainly part of it, but don't think that having a proprietary connector that had to be licensed to make accessories had nothing to do with it.
 

Finally, Id LOVE to see you pull off a complete example of a sliding click and lock control panel with a dsub connection.  The only way you will make it work reliably and consistently, is if you are a machinist, and or use precision CNC style rails.  As any bit of play in the x and y, will yield a problem.    An edge connector is much more forgiving in this respect.

I'm not arguing that an edge connector might be a little easier, but you're way overexaggerating the difficulty of using a d-sub.

[Nephasth]

Don't mind X2. The last time this conversation came up he had "the perfect solution", was requested pics, and never delivered. He's good at 2 things: napkin engineering, and blowing smoke. Not necessarily in that order either…

[Xiaou2]

Sure, functional and aesthetic improvements were certainly part of it, but don't think that having a proprietary connector that had to be licensed to make accessories had nothing to do with it.

 Proprietary didnt mean squat for like 3 different generations of consoles.  Being proprietary wasnt the main issue of those times, like it is today.  $$$

 

They're a little rougher to plug and unplug partly because it's a tight plastic on plastic fit.  It's not so bad with normal metal shelled d-subs, but they don't pop off either.

 They are tighter, by choice.  Dsub intentionally have screw-downs, to keep connectors from coming loose.  Dsubs thin metal shell is also a weakness... as any small drop, and the metal will bend out out shape, making it impossible to insert the connectors together, without bending it back precisely.

 Of course, the reason for the flimbsy metal, is because they are not designed to be constantly plugged / unplugged, and swung around, dropped...etc... like a typical game controller.

 Theres always a reason for a certain design.  Its pretty easy to understand, if you actually take the time to consider all the aspects.

I'm not arguing that an edge connector might be a little easier, but you're way overexaggerating the difficulty of using a d-sub.

 A littler easier??!!  Again, Proove it.   You are so gung ho about how easy it is... then show up a working video of it sliding in and out freely, consecutivly,
for 60 seconds of flawless in and out.  And also, document the time it takes you to actually Make such an accurate fail-proof connection.

 
 A large PCB edge connector, has like a full MM worth of play in any axis.  The conenctor will still be guided in without much trouble, even with a little slop.  But a Dsub has almost Zero tolerance.  They are super tight to slide on.   Many a day, Ive had difficulty trying to insert one blindly (by feel alone) into a monitor... yet, I could easily insert a PCB edge connector without issue.
 
 The smaller and tighter the tolerances, the higher accuracy you will need in making an exact positional matiing.  The differece between the Dsub and a ISA card, is not like 1 to 4. Its like 1 to 100, in the scale of magnitudes of difficulty in precision alignments.

 If your control panel had wooden guides, and one of the guides wore down a mere 1/2 a mm.. the dsub connect, that you spend hours and hours trying to precisly align... would fail to connect.

 Not only do you have to worry about the x and y precision, ... but also, in addition to wear, you must consider any twisting, sliding, warping, shrinkage / growth..etc.  From moisture, to heat / cold... as well as structural shifting / density issues.   (ever notice that certain doors in your house get tigher or looser, depending on the season? or house shifing..)

 
 A similar issue is found in gears.  If you use a very fine tooth gear, it requires very precise alignments.  If your off by a fraction, gears will skip and wear, and shear off.   Larger gears will be easier to work with, as you can be off by as much as a mm or more, and still make good enough connection to avoid wear and slippage.   If you would like to see proof of this, check out a real Arkanoid spinner.  Almost all of the old arkanoid spinners are toasted... and do not work correctly.  But yet, you can easily find large geared pedal sets that were made before Arkanoid, that were used and played more often... that still work flawlessly today.  No gear destruction at all.

Don't mind X2. The last time this conversation came up he had "the perfect solution", was requested pics, and never delivered. He's good at 2 things: napkin engineering, and blowing smoke. Not necessarily in that order either…

 To date, Ive built working Starwars and Super Hangon controllers, without even use of a simple sketch.   Its also a few of the reasons why I know more about materials and tolernaces.  Because of actual physical experience, with setbacks from failures of things actually built.. and or arcade / pinball related things that failed, that I repaired.

 This isnt about the perfect solution either.  This is about what is easier, and actually managable, by a non cnc / machinist.  As well as far more robust than hand-disconnecting cables.

[rCadeGaming]

Proprietary didnt mean squat for like 3 different generations of consoles.

Totally wrong.  Nintendo (among others) was always huge on controlling who could make anything that plugged into their consoles, and getting a cut through licensing.

Theres always a reason for a certain design.  Its pretty easy to understand, if you actually take the time to consider all the aspects.

 

Dsubs thin metal shell is also a weakness... as any small drop, and the metal will bend out out shape, making it impossible to insert the connectors together, without bending it back precisely.

Maybe you've got some crappy old VGA cables.  I've used the connectors I linked to for a lot of things.  They're not flimsy or fragile.  You'd have to a lot more than just drop them to bend them.

A large PCB edge connector, has like a full MM worth of play in any axis.  The conenctor will still be guided in without much trouble, even with a little slop.  But a Dsub has almost Zero tolerance.  They are super tight to slide on.   Many a day, Ive had difficulty trying to insert one blindly (by feel alone) into a monitor... yet, I could easily insert a PCB edge connector without issue.
 
 The smaller and tighter the tolerances, the higher accuracy you will need in making an exact positional matiing.  The differece between the Dsub and a ISA card, is not like 1 to 4. Its like 1 to 100, in the scale of magnitudes of difficulty in precision alignments.

The difference is 1 to 100 on a scale of magitude?  Do you even know what you're saying?  Total bull*crap.

A littler easier??!!  Again, Proove it.   You are so gung ho about how easy it is... then show up a working video of it sliding in and out freely, consecutivly, for 60 seconds of flawless in and out.  And also, document the time it takes you to actually Make such an accurate fail-proof connection.

Don't really need to take time out of my day to disprove your inaccurate/exaggerated conjecture.  The time spent typing here is more than enough.

[Xiaou2]

Totally wrong.

  Commodore Vic 20,
  C-64
  C-128
  Amigas
  Apple IIE, IIC, IIGS
  Atari 2600
  Colecovision
  X68000
  MSX
  Fm Towns
 Sega Master System/Mark III
 Sega Genesis/Megadrive 

  (and probably more)   ..all used the same gamepad connector.  Many are wired in such a way, that most will function across many if not all of those systems.

Maybe you've got some crappy old VGA cables.  I've used the connectors I linked to for a lot of things.  They're not flimsy or fragile.  You'd have to a lot more than just drop them to bend them.

 Just installed a bunch of brand new high dollar LCD monitors.  Dropped a brand new VGA cable less than 2ft... and had to fight to get it back into shape.  In fact, older may be better.  They used to make things more sturdy.  Now its about cutting costs, and intentional designed failure.  Any thin metal shell is easy to bend.  Its not rocket science.  Its pure physics.  The thinner the metal, the less strength it has.  Next you will tell me that VGA 'pins' are indestructible   

 

Do you even know what you're saying?

 Yup.  Else I wouldnt have said it.

Total bull*crap.

 Prove it.   

Don't really need to take time out of my day to disprove your inaccurate/exaggerated conjecture.

 No exaggerations here.  Mere experience.  A lot more than you probably ever will attain.  Especially with your crapitude.

 Ive worked on countless arcade machines, mechanical redemption machines, & pinball machines.... while working for a Namco owned arcade. Additionally, fixing them on the side, for home owners / collectors.  As well as my own personal machines. 

 Additionally, Ive scratch built, out of wood, metal, and gears:  A completely working starwars yoke, A super Hangon controller with twist throttle and cable brake,  a Sinistar controller with an actual multiplicative resistance spring-band system, custom spring loaded clamps, ball-bearing spinners, plastic molded spinner tops & custom bearing shells that fit inside button holes - ages before randys button-hole drop-in spinners, and much more.

 
 I have doubts you could even make a simple edge connector alignment.  Thats difficult enough for most people...  But a slide lock dsub?  Nah.  Doubt you have the skills.   Even I would shudder to attempt it... and not only that, but Id decline, because its stupidity.  No matter if you get it to align for a while.. it will eventually De-calibrate, and fail to align.

[rCadeGaming]

You're just spinnin' your tires...

[Lilwolf]

Isn't 25 a panel getting expensive enough that you would just get a cheap encoder per panel?  You can get some in 15-25 range now, then use usb?

I tried a bunch of things through the years, but ended up with.
I used multiple 25 serial cables cut in 1/2.  Then the males on the computer side, and female on control panels.  3 bucks a cable... and bough extra m-m.   90% of the ocntrol panels only have two plug ins. 

If I move anywhere it will be usb.  Now that we can get some super cheap ones, doesn't seem necessary.  might have some issues with configuration loss... but I dont' think so.

but one thing to mention.  your ends move around a LOT.  I had good solutions in the past when I created them, then after 6 months, I was constantly battling with broken leads.  the serial cables ends being enclosed at the factory seems to save this.  and the other side goes into a tac stip (thats what they are called right?).

[rCadeGaming]

A good hood will provide enough strain relief to avoid broken connections.  Here is an example of something I've done with d-sub connectors:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129501.0.html

[eds1275]

I have a feeling that over time the novelty of swapping out panels will get old and eventually you will be left with just one that lives in place, probably for most a joystick with buttons layout.

Might as well just build a frankenpanel or multiple machines! Everyone's seen this thing which I think is about as good looking as you can be with this many controls:
though I haven't played it to see how practical it would be.

Additionally, Ive scratch built, out of wood, metal, and gears:  A completely working starwars yoke, A super Hangon controller with twist throttle and cable brake,  a Sinistar controller with an actual multiplicative resistance spring-band system, custom spring loaded clamps, ball-bearing spinners, plastic molded spinner tops & custom bearing shells that fit inside button holes - ages before randys button-hole drop-in spinners, and much more.

I would love to see these things if you have any pictures! Especially the Sinistar controller, that sounds great.

[spystyle]

I can dig it, but a Frankenpanel doesn't look or feel authentic .. With swappable panels you can really replicate the classic panels.

But I think the monitor should rotate as well, that's my next project