Simple removable control panels

[spystyle]

Hello from Maine

Well I haven't really been following arcade news, so if this has already been covered let me know.

I wanted to have removable control panels that were simple, so this is what I came up with :

1. Make a control panel that is slightly larger than the cabinet's outside diameter :

















2. The overhang can be used to attach the "striker plate" part of the latch kit.







3. Each control panel has a keyboard encoder (and whatever other boards needed) attached to it. A USB keyboard encoder is ideal for removable control panels. USB can be unplugged while the computer is on, but PS2 must have the computer powered off to swap.



4. Blocks have to be in place so the control panel can't be pulled forward by the players :





And that's the basic concept I use to make simple removable control panels :





EDIT : Ultimately, I decided that the slot cut should be in the cabinet, rather than the control panel (as I did it). Cutting the slot in the control panel gives it a sort of 'finger' that can break off, LOL. It creates a fragile part. 

If you need to add tension you can add a shim to each side. Here is one made from hardboard :







It's "wasteful" since each control panel uses it's own encoder board(s) - so there is an extra $25 fee per panel (at least). However, this results in a simpler swapping process.

EDIT : These days keyboard encoders can be bought for much less.

I order the latch kits here :

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw=latch&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_armrs=1&_ssn=twistedquarter&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313&_nkw=latch+with+plate&_sacat=0

(I am not affiliated with the seller "TwistedQuarter" but he is a good seller, in my experience)

(alt) Here are some from Happ :

http://na.suzohapp.com/amusement/acesor/49005900.htm

I don't know if there is a Home Depot alternative for the "striker plate", since you only need 2 latches for the cabinet but every panel needs 2 striker plates.

Let me know what you think
Craig

p.s. I built this shelf to hold the control panels :



It's kind of hard to see the detail as the shelf and the two control panels are black, so I pushed the exposure. Anyway, it can be seen holding two control panels, the second one is not finished. The "striker plates" keep the control panels from moving horizontally in the shelf, and the wood keeps them from moving vertically. Right now it can hold three control panels, but holes are predrilled to add more horizontal pieces to hold up to six.

[paigeoliver]

Nice, when I tried that I made them slide in, but I am digging your method too.

Ultimately you might want to consider enclosing the bottoms of the control panels in an enclosure so they don't get damaged from being moved around. That was what kept happening with my slide in panels.

[spystyle]

That's a good idea

I'd like to see your panels too.

[paigeoliver]

They are years gone at this point.

That's a good idea

I'd like to see your panels too.

[rCadeGaming]

Using a different encoder for every panel is wasteful, and there's no reason it would have to be any more complicated to keep the encoder on the cabinet side.  All of the wires between the encoder and the sticks/buttons/whatever could easily routed through a single connector.  A DB-25 or DB-37 would be great.

Also, how about holding the panel in magnetically for fast swapping?  Not too big of a magnet near the screen though, haha.

[spystyle]

I agree that using an encoder for each panel is a waste of $25 or more.

However, I am convinced it's the most simple. Especially if USB encoders are used. But I might try using a single encoder next time

Regardless, I hope I was able to contribute - if nothing else, a base concept others can improve upon.

As for magnets, hard drive magnets are extra strong ... that just might work

Maybe it's possible with "countersunk neodymium ring magnets"

eBay Link :
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=neodymium+ring+magnets&LH_BIN=1&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313&_nkw=countersunk+neodymium+ring+magnets&_sacat=0

Cheers,
Craig

[paigeoliver]

Strong magnets on the control panel would wreck havoc with a crt screen.

As for magnets, hard drive magnets are extra strong ... that just might work

Cheers,
Craig

[spystyle]

Yeah truly, the magnets would have to be spaced or bucked properly.

In the meantime, I find this a very simple way to go

[Minwah]

For my swappable panels I have one (PS/2) IPAC in the cabinet. The panel controls connect with molex connectors.

Also I put the latches on the inside...bit harder to get to but only takes a minute or two to swap panels.

[rCadeGaming]

I agree that using an encoder for each panel is a waste of $25 or more.

However, I am convinced it's the most simple.

Sorry, but if you're still convinced of this, you're not grasping my or Minwah's post.  You're wasting your money.

[spystyle]

LOL, I didn't realize we were such a financially conservative bunch

I concede.

Post some pics of your solutions so we can correct this terrible thread !

[Le Chuck]

LOL, I didn't realize we were such a financially conservative bunch

I concede.

Post some pics of your solutions so we can correct this terrible thread !

 

Oh no, we're just here to criticize your work and let you know how wrong you are

I haven't done swappable panels so good for you for tackling the project!  I do think you should take Paige's advice about adding some sort of component protection to the bottom.  I've seen tupperware used to great affect along those lines.

Check out Switchcade for an incredibly well done execution of the basic idea. 

[rCadeGaming]

Lol, sorry to be a dick, it just sounded as if you were being stubborn and illogical; and I'm all for spending top dollar on a cabinet, but that's just pissing away money for no gain.

Basically, you take all the wires between your buttons and your encoder, bundle them together, cut them in the middle, and wire them through a single connection for convenience.  Try one of these, it's a DB-25, meaning it can connect 25 wires:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/171-025-103L001/225ME-ND/858135

See those hollow things on the back?  They're called solder cups, and they're very convenient to solder to.  Here's the matching female connector:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/171-025-203L001/225FE-ND/858144

The screw holes on the ends can be used to mount them to a hole in a flat surface, or you can use a hood to make it a free hanging connection.  A hood just covers up the connections in the back of the D-sub and provides strain relief:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/86303639BLF/609-1426-ND/1001740

If you need to make more than 25 connections, you can use a DB-37:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/171-037-103L001/237ME-ND/858153

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/171-037-203L001/237FE-ND/858162

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/86303640BLF/609-1427-ND/1001741

Click my projects thread in my signature for an example (with pictures) of something I used a D-sub connector for.

[walker_tr9]

Yes, but how much extra time is spent on wiring up this extra connector?  Can you do it in an hour?  If not, then I would spend the extra $25!

BTW: spystyle, can you post a bigger pic of the underside of the CP?  I want to see how the notches look from under there (the ones that mate with the cabinet).  Anyway, nice idea.

[rCadeGaming]

Yes, you could do it in under an hour, the cab side connections only have to be done once, and we're talking an extra $25 per panel.

[yotsuya]

I made a bunch of multpanels using 1 i-pac and network cables. Today, if I were doing it, I'd make my own Molex harnesses but still use the same philosophy. At $25 an encoder, it's way cheaper and simpler.

[Xiaou2]

May not be the most pretty solution, but an out-side mounted lock is a nice feature... as reaching into a coindoor to get to a latch is a real pain.

 
 Anyways, heres some ideas:

3 FOOT LONG ARCADE MACHINE JAMMA HARNESS EXTENSION CABLE - 56 PIN EDGE CONNECTOR

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-FOOT-LONG-ARCADE-MACHINE-JAMMA-HARNESS-EXTENSION-CABLE-56-PIN-EDGE-CONNECTOR-/390437126308?pt=UK_Video_Games_Coin_Operated_MJ&hash=item5ae7ddc0a4


(cut it in half.  its already wired on both ends)

and

http://www.ebay.com/itm/50-PCS-P-N-CS51-098A1K0-ISA-SLOT-CONNECTOR-98-PINS-W-KINKED-/250971260503?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6f0d8657

 98 pin ISA connector.   (for which you could probably grab some old ISA cards, and cut the ends off of the PCBs)


 Using several lan cables per panel would be a hassle and a pain.

 Molex connectors are not meant to be repeatedly plugged and unplugged.  They are often difficult to take apart, and they
often have pins that dont aligns well.  You also need special tools to put the things together, when those pins start failing.

 Printer cable connectors have a lot of pins, but are not easy to wire, because the pins are so close together... And wouldnt be as easy to get a good connector alignment when joining the male and female ends.  The connections are also very thin and frail.. and wouldnt hold up well to repeated use.


 Large trace Edge connectors are the easiest and most robust solution for something like this.
Same solution they used for the console cartridge based game systems.

[spystyle]

DB-25 and DB-37 explained :

Basically, you take all the wires between your buttons and your encoder, bundle them together, cut them in the middle, and wire them through a single connection for convenience.  Try one of these, it's a DB-25, meaning it can connect 25 wires:



See those hollow things on the back?  They're called solder cups, and they're very convenient to solder to.  Here's the matching female connector:



The screw holes on the ends can be used to mount them to a hole in a flat surface, or you can use a hood to make it a free hanging connection.  A hood just covers up the connections in the back of the D-sub and provides strain relief:



If you need to make more than 25 connections, you can use a DB-37, which has 37 connected :

Thanks for the explanation, I'll try that on my next cab

Is that hot swappable in PS/2 and USB ?

Check out Switchcade for an incredibly well done execution of the basic idea.

Oh my, that is slick

...here's some ideas:

3 FOOT LONG ARCADE MACHINE JAMMA HARNESS EXTENSION CABLE - 56 PIN EDGE CONNECTOR



(cut it in half. it's already wired on both ends)

and 98 pin ISA connector.   (for which you could probably grab some old ISA cards, and cut the ends off of the PCBs)



Using several lan cables per panel would be a hassle and a pain.

Molex connectors are not meant to be repeatedly plugged and unplugged.  They are often difficult to take apart, and they
often have pins that don't align well.  You also need special tools to put the things together, when those pins start failing.

Printer cable connectors have a lot of pins, but are not easy to wire, because the pins are so close together... And wouldn't be as easy to get a good connector alignment when joining the male and female ends.  The connections are also very thin and frail.. and wouldn't hold up well to repeated use.

Large trace Edge connectors are the easiest and most robust solution for something like this.
Same solution they used for the console cartridge based game systems.

Thanks for chiming in

[PL1]

Don't forget that D-sub connectors also come in the crimp version.



Pin extraction tool



Scott

[spystyle]

Thanks Scott

[edekoning]

Well I would (and will) go for the 'OMG are you crazy' option and spend the 25 on an additional encoder. Off all the solutions presented here, USBs are by far the easiest to (un)plug. More importantly it can be done with one hand. All those other connection look like you need two hands to (un)plug (I might be wrong though). So when swapping the CP you can just hold it in one hand and use the other to unplug. If you need two hands, you first need to put the CP somewhere to free up your hands. And where will you put it, when its still attached.

When you have multiple encoders, led controllers, and what not, then it might be better to only have to disconnect one cable instead of 4/5 usb cables. One final thing to consider is if you have any buttons/leds that are not on the CP (e.g. coin door buttons). If so, you either need to buy a separate encoder/controller for them, or wire them to the CP using one of the non-USB options presented above.

[Minwah]

Well I would (and will) go for the 'OMG are you crazy' option and spend the 25 on an additional encoder. Off all the solutions presented here, USBs are by far the easiest to (un)plug. More importantly it can be done with one hand. All those other connection look like you need two hands to (un)plug (I might be wrong though). So when swapping the CP you can just hold it in one hand and use the other to unplug. If you need two hands, you first need to put the CP somewhere to free up your hands. And where will you put it, when its still attached.

You have a bit of a point here, for my molex connectors I have to use two hands. However it is easy to sit the control panel in place but 'vertical' and hold in place while plugging in...it only takes a few seconds.

When you have multiple encoders, led controllers, and what not, then it might be better to only have to disconnect one cable instead of 4/5 usb cables.

True, use a USB hub. I have a few panels which have mouse devices/joysticks etc.

One final thing to consider is if you have any buttons/leds that are not on the CP (e.g. coin door buttons). If so, you either need to buy a separate encoder/controller for them, or wire them to the CP using one of the non-USB options presented above.

No, if you go with the method of having the encoder permanently in the cabinet you just use that encoder. I have coin switches, start buttons and a pause (shift) switch connected all the time. Another good thing about this is that you only need one set of start buttons (if you have somewhere suitable to place them not on the control panel itself of course).

I suppose what it boils down to is how many control panels actually require a keyboard encoder?

[PL1]

Since nobody else has mentioned it yet, you can get an AVR for a lot less than $25.



You can either solder wires directly to the AVR, use the 2.54mm screw terminals like Degenatrons did, or solder a 12-pin header to the board and use these or similar .1" header cables from Paradise.

   


Scott

EDIT:  Just found out that Degenatrons has some of his AVR encoders with terminals available.  This is not a KADE device but it will be compatible with the KADE Loader software when it is released early next year.  PM him if you're interested.

[spystyle]

Oh that's interesting

I saw the video here :

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,128745.msg1316035.html

And saw the price was only $7.00 here :

http://www.amazon.com/MINIMUS-AVR-ATMEL-AT90USB162-BOARD/dp/B00HCO6BFK/ref=pd_sim_sbs_t_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1KJSE6FQRG1MDGYY4HRH

That's hilarious

It's fully programmable, that's fun. I guess it only has 20 inputs, but with a shift function it should still be able to support layouts as large as "Street Fighter" and still have many inputs left.

Here is what I worked out :

01) Player 1 up (shift available)
02) Player 1 down (shift available)
03) Player 1 left (shift available)
04) Player 1 right (shift available)
05) Player 1 button 1 (shifted ENTER)
06) Player 1 button 2 (shifted ESC)
07) Player 1 button 3 (shifted Player 1 coin)
08) Player 1 button 4 (config MAME to double as Player 1 start) (shift available)
09) Player 1 button 5 (shifted pause)
10) Player 1 button 6 (shifted load/save)
11) Player 2 up (shift available)
12) Player 2 down (shift available)
13) Player 2 left (shift available)
14) Player 2 right (shift available)
15) Player 2 button 1 (shifted TAB)
16) Player 2 button 2 (shifted F12)
17) Player 2 button 3 (shifted player 2 coin)
18) Player 2 button 4 (config MAME to double as player 2 start) (shift available)
19) Player 2 button 5 (shift available)
20) Player 2 button 6 (shift available)

(I've noticed you don't need a "Start button", as you can configure MAME so that a player's button doubles as "start")

Using all I could think of, there are still 11 inputs left.

That breaks the $10 price mark ? I remember when KeyWiz ECO2 broke the $20 price mark

Look at this wayback page from 2005 :

http://web.archive.org/web/20050307011918/http://www.groovygamegear.com/Page2.html

That is actually the encoder in the pics at the very top LOL, I had some left over

I still have one left.

OK, have fun!
Craig

[PL1]

I guess it only has 20 inputs, but with a shift function it should still be able to support layouts as large as "Street Fighter" and still have many inputs left.

Wiring the shift functions for the AVR encoder firmware is covered on the resources page under "Extended Mode Wiring Diagram" here or you can skip the fancy wiring and use an encoder in the cab to handle your admin buttons, pinball flippers, etc.


Scott

[spystyle]

From the video, I thought we could use the loader program to make a custom layout.

Was my post completely incorrect ?

[rCadeGaming]

3 FOOT LONG ARCADE MACHINE JAMMA HARNESS EXTENSION CABLE - 56 PIN EDGE CONNECTOR

I don't think most people would need that many connections for their cp, and a JAMMA connector is pretty bulky.  This the next part is clever though:

(cut it in half.  its already wired on both ends)

You could do this with any of the formats we've been talking about.  Just get a cable with a male and female end and cut it in half.

Printer cable connectors have a lot of pins, but are not easy to wire, because the pins are so close together...

Guessing you mean D-sub connectors.  This isn't really true.  It's quite easy with the solder cups.  I've been using 22 gauge wire with DB-15 high density ("VGA") connectors without much problem.  It's even easier when you're using smaller wire or a more widely spaced connector like a DB-25 or 37.

And wouldnt be as easy to get a good connector alignment when joining the male and female ends.

No, not really.  Slides in pretty easily, and the connectors are trapezoid-shaped so you can't plug one end in upside down or something.

The connections are also very thin and frail.. and wouldnt hold up well to repeated use.

Now this part is reeaaaally off.  The hoods I linked to provide as much strain relief as anything.  There is no stress on the connections.  I've been constantly swapping around the same custom DB-15 controller cables on my sticks for 3 years now with no problems.

Don't forget that D-sub connectors also come in the crimp version.

I wouldn't really recommend this.  Crimping those tiny connections and inserting them all in the housing can be a huge pain in the butt.  It's also not nearly as reliable as a single piece solid connector with solder cups.

Off all the solutions presented here, USBs are by far the easiest to (un)plug. More importantly it can be done with one hand. All those other connection look like you need two hands to (un)plug (I might be wrong though).

Yeah if one side of the D-sub connector is secured in place (very easy to do), plugging and unplugging a D-sub with one hand is just as easy.

One final thing to consider is if you have any buttons/leds that are not on the CP (e.g. coin door buttons). If so, you either need to buy a separate encoder/controller for them, or wire them to the CP using one of the non-USB options presented above.

No, if you go with the method of having the encoder permanently in the cabinet you just use that encoder. I have coin switches, start buttons and a pause (shift) switch connected all the time. Another good thing about this is that you only need one set of start buttons (if you have somewhere suitable to place them not on the control panel itself of course).

+1

Since nobody else has mentioned it yet, you can get an AVR for a lot less than $25.

I don't know much about these.  I'd like to know what effect these have in terms of lag and ghosting and such.

USB connections consist of four lines; one for power, one for ground, and two for data.  It's hard to believe nothing would be lost or delayed when compressing the signal of dozens of lines to be transmitted over just two.

[equlizer]

This guy lives not even 20 min from my place!!!  Is it just plug and play? I should pickup a few and try them out.

Oh that's interesting

I saw the video here :

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,128745.msg1316035.html

And saw the price was only $6.95 here :

http://www.foundmy.com/oscom/minimus-avr-usb-instock-p-396.html

That's hilarious

It's fully programmable, that's fun. I guess it only has 20 inputs, but with a shift function it should still be able to support layouts as large as "Street Fighter" and still have many inputs left.

Here is what I worked out :

01) Player 1 up (shift available)
02) Player 1 down (shift available)
03) Player 1 left (shift available)
04) Player 1 right (shift available)
05) Player 1 button 1 (shifted ENTER)
06) Player 1 button 2 (shifted ESC)
07) Player 1 button 3 (shifted Player 1 coin)
08) Player 1 button 4 (config MAME to double as Player 1 start) (shift available)
09) Player 1 button 5 (shifted pause)
10) Player 1 button 6 (shifted load/save)
11) Player 2 up (shift available)
12) Player 2 down (shift available)
13) Player 2 left (shift available)
14) Player 2 right (shift available)
15) Player 2 button 1 (shifted TAB)
16) Player 2 button 2 (shifted F12)
17) Player 2 button 3 (shifted player 2 coin)
18) Player 2 button 4 (config MAME to double as player 2 start) (shift available)
19) Player 2 button 5 (shift available)
20) Player 2 button 6 (shift available)

(I've noticed you don't need a "Start button", as you can configure MAME so that a player's button doubles as "start")

Using all I could think of, there are still 11 inputs left.

That breaks the $10 price mark ? I remember when KeyWiz ECO2 broke the $20 price mark

Look at this wayback page from 2005 :

http://web.archive.org/web/20050307011918/http://www.groovygamegear.com/Page2.html

That is actually the encoder in the pics at the very top LOL, I had some left over

I still have one left.

OK, have fun!
Craig

[PL1]

From the video, I thought we could use the loader program to make a custom layout.

Was my post completely incorrect ?

The video describes the KADE which is currently in beta testing and due to be released early next year.

The KADE is basically an AVR encoder with improved firmware and additional hardware for those who aren't good at soldering.

Just think of the AVR as a motherboard, the AVR firmware as Win98, and the KADE firmware as WinXP -- you can use either OS with the MB, but the newer one will have more features.

Don't forget that D-sub connectors also come in the crimp version.

I wouldn't really recommend this.  Crimping those tiny connections and inserting them all in the housing can be a huge pain in the butt.  It's also not nearly as reliable as a single piece solid connector with solder cups.

Only true if you are using the wrong tool -- like vise grips -- to do the crimping.

With the right tool (ratcheting crimpers and correct die -- see pg. 74 here) you can make quick and accurate crimps that have rock solid mechanical and electrical connections.

If you claim otherwise, I suggest you talk to Nephasth about it -- his connector pron is the gold standard around here IMHO.

As a bonus, with the crimp version, you can remove/replace individual pins if you accidently damage them -- with the solder version, you need to replace the whole connector.

Since nobody else has mentioned it yet, you can get an AVR for a lot less than $25.

I don't know much about these. 

On this, we agree.

I'd like to know what effect these have in terms of lag and ghosting and such.

USB connections consist of four lines; one for power, one for ground, and two for data.  It's hard to believe nothing would be lost or delayed when compressing the signal of dozens of lines to be transmitted over just two.

Why don't you ask Sharpfork how much lag there is?  AFAIK he hasn't encountered any during his extensive SHMUP gameplay testing on the KADE.

Ghosting is a MATRIX encoder (Hagstrom KE24, etc.) problem, so not sure why you brought that up in the context of a discrete input encoder. (AVR, KeyWiz, I-Pac, etc.)

If the USB connection causes lag, then your beloved MC Cthulhu must have the exact same problem, right.   

IMNSHO thread-crapping when you admit not being familiar with the encoder in question is right up there with pissing into a public water fountain.   

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
--Abraham Lincoln


Scott

[PL1]

This guy lives not even 20 min from my place!!!  Is it just plug and play? I should pickup a few and try them out.

And saw the price was only $6.95 here :

http://www.foundmy.com/oscom/minimus-avr-usb-instock-p-396.html

From Foundmy, you get the AVR, but no preprogrammed encoder firmware, screw terminals, or pin headers.



You need to program the firmware using directions and files here.  (This AVR will also work with the KADE loader program once it is released early next year.)

You'll need to solder individual wires, 2.54mm screw terminals, or .1" pin headers to connect your buttons.

Not exactly "plug and play" unless you get the pre-programmed ones with screw terminals from Degenatrons, but definitely a cool low cost encoder.  (I've got 4 of them to use in various standalone/portable controllers that I'm building.)


Scott

[Xiaou2]

No, not really.  Slides in pretty easily, and the connectors are trapezoid-shaped so you can't plug one end in upside down or something.

 I meant, that if you wanted to simply slide your control panel into place and have it work... rather than having to grab cables & connectors,  ... and plug & unplug them.

 A DSub / printer style connector is strong, but the wires attached are usually thin.  If the cable is bent and moved around often... internal wires can break...  and wires can detach from the pins.  This of course depends on how you set things up.
One static end which does not move... and one cable end... for example, would limit wear / damages to only the flexible cable
end.

 Still, you wouldnt be able to drop a control panel in place, or slide it in place, using a Dsub / DB connector... UNLESS, you were using a highly accurate channel guide system.  Even then, its a stretch, as the connectors have almost no forgiveness. (no play..  so need greater than MM accuracty alignments) 

  A large edge connector however, has a reduced accuracy requirement, due to larger connections, and a connector that has some initial play, which funnels the cartridge/board into place, getting tighter as it enters.

 The connections are huge trace lines, on the 'moving' end, which helps keep wires from popping off, even after much abuse.


 Theres a reason why Game Consoles used this style of connector.   Imagine trying to pop in a Dsub ended cartridge repeatedly for your old game console.    Dsubs connectors are great for static application... such as locking them in place.
But for high rep use... they are not great for ease of connectivity.   

 If your talking Monitor Dsubs... they often need to be screwed down to prevent them popping off over time.  Sometimes they are so tight, that its a real pain to try to get them together, or yank them apart.  Usually happens when the the thin metal outer shell has been dented from a simple 2ft drop to the floor.

 Printer / serial  based connectors are not much better.

I don't think most people would need that many connections for their cp, and a JAMMA connector is pretty bulky.  This the next part is clever though:

 I dont think it matters how big the connector, nor the amount of connections.  Cost and ease of use, is usually the main factors for consideration.   You can always remove wires unused with ease.   The connectors themselves, will be hidden, (possibly even sunk-in... if you really want to get fancy)  so it does not even matter what they look like.

[spystyle]

Thanks for all the excellent information fellas

[rCadeGaming]

I wouldn't really recommend this.  Crimping those tiny connections and inserting them all in the housing can be a huge pain in the butt.  It's also not nearly as reliable as a single piece solid connector with solder cups.

Only true if you are using the wrong tool -- like vise grips -- to do the crimping.

Yes, it will work great if done perfectly, but using solder cups is a bit more fool proof.  Crimping those small connections can be a chore, and the tiny little tabs that keep the crimp-on pins from backing out of the housings can get finicky.

I have experience with both methods and I'm just saying I'd recommend solder cups for someone starting out.  They're easier to work with and don't require buying a special tool, other than a simple soldering iron which you should have anyway in this hobby.  You also cannot argue that a crimped connection will be more reliable than a soldered one.

As a bonus, with the crimp version, you can remove/replace individual pins if you accidently damage them -- with the solder version, you need to replace the whole connector.

I haven't damaged any pins yet, and if I do these connectors are only a dollar or two.

-

You seem to have misread the tone of my comments on AVR encoders.  There's no need for so much hostility.

Why don't you ask Sharpfork how much lag there is?  AFAIK he hasn't encountered any during his extensive SHMUP gameplay testing on the KADE.

The KADE is claimed to have no lag, and I'm not disputing this.  However, that's not out yet, and I wasn't sure if some people are talking about use a generic AVR encoder, which wouldn't have the purpose written firmware and added hardware to ensure that it's suitable for game controls.  Notice how I just referenced AVR encoders in general, not the KADE specifically.

Ghosting is a MATRIX encoder (Hagstrom KE24, etc.) problem, so not sure why you brought that up in the context of a discrete input encoder. (AVR, KeyWiz, I-Pac, etc.)

Just because that is something that's common with matrix encoders does not mean it's not possible to have a similar type of issue with other hardware.

If the USB connection causes lag, then your beloved MC Cthulhu must have the exact same problem, right.   

It's not that simple.  If a USB connection has certain limitations, different hardware and firmware could tackle this differently and produce different results.  Notice that I said IF.  I never claimed anything about this in the first place, I just said I'd like to know.

Since the Cthulhu and the KADE are purpose-built for gaming, they've likely addressed whatever issues there may be as well as they could; but again, I wasn't comparing them, or even specifically questioning the KADE, just saying I'd like to know about AVR encoders in general.

IMNSHO thread-crapping when you admit not being familiar with the encoder in question is right up there with pissing into a public water fountain.   

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
--Abraham Lincoln

I really don't see how I was "thread-crapping."  I made no statement of fact about encoders.  I just said I'd like to know.  I didn't realize it was so inflammatory, and IMNSHO I think all the insults and hostility are completely uncalled for.  If you're going to crucify everyone who asks questions, we won't have much of a forum.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've even mentioned Cthulhu's in weeks, so I don't know why you brought that up.  It sounds like you've been waiting for quite a while for an excuse to attack me.  Whatever I did to deserve a vendetta against me, I apologize.  I guess.

-

A DSub / printer style connector is strong, but the wires attached are usually thin.  If the cable is bent and moved around often... internal wires can break...

Yeah, it's possible.  It's not really much of a danger though.  The same is going on in the cords for video game controllers, and they can stand up to quite a bit of abuse.  I wouldn't recommend going smaller than 24 gauge, but stranded wire is pretty tough.

and wires can detach from the pins.

Again, no.  Even with a free hanging cable, the hoods are designed to provide more than enough strain relief to prevent this.

Still, you wouldnt be able to drop a control panel in place, or slide it in place, using a Dsub / DB connector... UNLESS, you were using a highly accurate channel guide system.  Even then, its a stretch, as the connectors have almost no forgiveness. (no play..  so need greater than MM accuracty alignments)

A large edge connector however, has a reduced accuracy requirement, due to larger connections, and a connector that has some initial play, which funnels the cartridge/board into place, getting tighter as it enters.

The female side of a d-sub is slightly rounded to guide things in.  It's arguable.

Theres a reason why Game Consoles used this style of connector.   Imagine trying to pop in a Dsub ended cartridge repeatedly for your old game console.    Dsubs connectors are great for static application... such as locking them in place.
But for high rep use... they are not great for ease of connectivity.

True, game cartridges use PCB edge connectors because they allow so many pins, but the controller connectors are actually much more similar to d-subs, especially the Genesis/Megadrive and Atari.  Most just use plastic shells so they can use a propriety connector shape.

If your talking Monitor Dsubs... they often need to be screwed down to prevent them popping off over time.  Sometimes they are so tight, that its a real pain to try to get them together, or yank them apart.  Usually happens when the the thin metal outer shell has been dented from a simple 2ft drop to the floor.

I don't bother with the locking screws on my custom A/V and controller d-sub cables anymore.  They don't pop off unless you give them a good yank.  They're not really that fragile either.

I dont think it matters how big the connector, nor the amount of connections.  Cost and ease of use, is usually the main factors for consideration.   You can always remove wires unused with ease.   The connectors themselves, will be hidden, (possibly even sunk-in... if you really want to get fancy)  so it does not even matter what they look like.

If we're talking about a free hanging cable, the d-subs would be much better due to bulk.  If we're talking about slide-in-and-lock system, which would be the slickest, I think both would work well.

[Nephasth]

I wouldn't really recommend this.  Crimping those tiny connections and inserting them all in the housing can be a huge pain in the butt.  It's also not nearly as reliable as a single piece solid connector with solder cups.

Only true if you are using the wrong tool -- like vise grips -- to do the crimping.

Yes, it will work great if done perfectly, but using solder cups is a bit more fool proof.  Crimping those small connections can be a chore, and the tiny little tabs that keep the crimp-on pins from backing out of the housings can get finicky.

I have experience with both methods and I'm just saying I'd recommend solder cups for someone starting out.  They're easier to work with and don't require buying a special tool, other than a simple soldering iron which you should have anyway in this hobby.  You also cannot argue that a crimped connection will be more reliable than a soldered one.

I'm going to argue a couple things here. My Two-Headed Beast has thousands (yes, thousands) of crimped terminal pins, not a single wire has pulled out of any of those pins, even after numerous mating cycles. A set of crimpers that can crimp numerous different types of pins can be had for just as much as a cheap soldering iron ($30-$35), and is definitely a tool one should have in this hobby considering that all arcade machines utilize crimp connectors in their harnesses. I would not recommend soldering to someone just starting out (assuming they have no previous soldering experience), crimping pins on wires has a much more forgiving learning curve than soldering. If you've had problems with crimp terminal pins, you're doing it wrong.

[rCadeGaming]

I'm just saying that in my experience I've done both, and one seemed like less of a hassle than the other to me.  Also, having a soldering iron and knowing how to use it pretty important in this hobby.

[PL1]

having a soldering iron and knowing how to use it pretty important in this hobby.

I agree that knowing how to solder is an important skill -- as is crimping.

Ideally, people should learn both methods then use the one that works for the application at hand.

You seem to have misread the tone of my comments on AVR encoders.  There's no need for so much hostility.

The main reason for the strong pushback was that the only AVR Encoder I've seen mentioned here is the one by Degenatrons that has expanded into the KADE project.

It looked like the issues you raised were aimed at this project.

Thought you knew the evolution of the KADE.   

I really don't see how I was "thread-crapping."  I made no statement of fact about encoders.  I just said I'd like to know.  I didn't realize it was so inflammatory, and IMNSHO I think all the insults and hostility are completely uncalled for.  If you're going to crucify everyone who asks questions, we won't have much of a forum.

I have no heartburn with questions being asked, but some questions contain potentially offensive implications.

The 9-11 "Truthers" are an example of how "just asking questions" can be offensive to an informed listener.

If no offense was intended, then let's consider the AVR question answered (Degenatrons' AVR Encoder and KADE work great, no problems with the concerns expressed) and get back to sharing holiday cheer.   


Scott

[edekoning]

I don't have a soldering iron, and never used one. I don't think I will be needing one either. I had also never crimped a wire until recently. I bought a semi-decent Knipex crimper for unshielded open-barrel f-type connectors. The few crimps I have made so far, have all been flawless and were so easy to do.

I looked up those d-sub connectors, and saw that they go up to 50 connections!. However, the crimp style versions are very expensive, especially those pins: 50 for 6,-. In the end, for me, its cheaper to buy a new encoder than it is to buy these d-sub crimp connectors and a pin extraction/insertion tool. The solder version will be a lot cheaper though, but then I would need to invest in a soldering station and spend time learning how to actually solder. In the end I will probably just go whatever route is easiest / most convenient. Even if that means spending 20,- more.

[spystyle]

Soldering is incredibly easy - if anyone wants a simple soldering tutorial with pics, let me know.

[JMB]

Soldering is incredibly easy - if anyone wants a simple soldering tutorial with pics, let me know.

I'd love to see one if you are willing to do it. Thanks!

[Nephasth]

Soldering is incredibly easy - if anyone wants a simple soldering tutorial with pics, let me know.

I'd love to see one if you are willing to do it. Thanks!

Plenty of tutorials on youtube.

[TopJimmyCooks]

Pogo pins! Oh wait - with minimum orders and shipping they're more expensive than another encoder!  Dang. 

Just want to see someone else break the ice before I buy some for switchcade. 

[spystyle]

Soldering is incredibly easy - if anyone wants a simple soldering tutorial with pics, let me know.

I'd love to see one if you are willing to do it. Thanks!

I'll do one in picture book style

edit : OK here it is :

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129317.msg1322370.html

[Xiaou2]

True, game cartridges use PCB edge connectors because they allow so many pins, but the controller connectors are actually much more similar to d-subs, especially the Genesis/Megadrive and Atari.

 The connectors on the Sega Master, Genesis, and Atari, is not easy to plug in... nor take out.   Its designed this way, so that your controller will not accidentally fall out while your playing.   Its the same with parallel cables.

 As for why they used them, no.. Im sorry, but its not merely because of the number of pins.   A dsub connector is more durable, because of its thicker shape.  Any downward pressure on an edge connector could cause the entire board to snap.  It would also take up a lot more space on a console, to use large pin edge connectors.   Cost was a main factor in why those three (and more) systems used that style of connector.  No need to make a new expensive mold.  And differing ports were probably first born due to style and better functionality.   Snes controllers are much smoother and easier to pop in and out.  They also match the color and style of the system.

 
 Finally, Id LOVE to see you pull off a complete example of a sliding click and lock control panel with a dsub connection.  The only way you will make it work reliably and consistently, is if you are a machinist, and or use precision CNC style rails.  As any bit of play in the x and y, will yield a problem.    An edge connector is much more forgiving in this respect.   

[rCadeGaming]

The connectors on the Sega Master, Genesis, and Atari, is not easy to plug in... nor take out.   Its designed this way, so that your controller will not accidentally fall out while your playing.   Its the same with parallel cables.

They're a little rougher to plug and unplug partly because it's a tight plastic on plastic fit.  It's not so bad with normal metal shelled d-subs, but they don't pop off either.

As for why they used them, no.. Im sorry, but its not merely because of the number of pins.  A dsub connector is more durable, because of its thicker shape.  Any downward pressure on an edge connector could cause the entire board to snap.  It would also take up a lot more space on a console, to use large pin edge connectors.   Cost was a main factor in why those three (and more) systems used that style of connector.  No need to make a new expensive mold.

I never said that the number of pins was the only reason, but thanks for the good arguments for d-subs here.

And differing ports were probably first born due to style and better functionality.   Snes controllers are much smoother and easier to pop in and out.  They also match the color and style of the system.

Sure, functional and aesthetic improvements were certainly part of it, but don't think that having a proprietary connector that had to be licensed to make accessories had nothing to do with it.
 

Finally, Id LOVE to see you pull off a complete example of a sliding click and lock control panel with a dsub connection.  The only way you will make it work reliably and consistently, is if you are a machinist, and or use precision CNC style rails.  As any bit of play in the x and y, will yield a problem.    An edge connector is much more forgiving in this respect.

I'm not arguing that an edge connector might be a little easier, but you're way overexaggerating the difficulty of using a d-sub.

[Nephasth]

Don't mind X2. The last time this conversation came up he had "the perfect solution", was requested pics, and never delivered. He's good at 2 things: napkin engineering, and blowing smoke. Not necessarily in that order either…

[Xiaou2]

Sure, functional and aesthetic improvements were certainly part of it, but don't think that having a proprietary connector that had to be licensed to make accessories had nothing to do with it.

 Proprietary didnt mean squat for like 3 different generations of consoles.  Being proprietary wasnt the main issue of those times, like it is today.  $$$

 

They're a little rougher to plug and unplug partly because it's a tight plastic on plastic fit.  It's not so bad with normal metal shelled d-subs, but they don't pop off either.

 They are tighter, by choice.  Dsub intentionally have screw-downs, to keep connectors from coming loose.  Dsubs thin metal shell is also a weakness... as any small drop, and the metal will bend out out shape, making it impossible to insert the connectors together, without bending it back precisely.

 Of course, the reason for the flimbsy metal, is because they are not designed to be constantly plugged / unplugged, and swung around, dropped...etc... like a typical game controller.

 Theres always a reason for a certain design.  Its pretty easy to understand, if you actually take the time to consider all the aspects.

I'm not arguing that an edge connector might be a little easier, but you're way overexaggerating the difficulty of using a d-sub.

 A littler easier??!!  Again, Proove it.   You are so gung ho about how easy it is... then show up a working video of it sliding in and out freely, consecutivly,
for 60 seconds of flawless in and out.  And also, document the time it takes you to actually Make such an accurate fail-proof connection.

 
 A large PCB edge connector, has like a full MM worth of play in any axis.  The conenctor will still be guided in without much trouble, even with a little slop.  But a Dsub has almost Zero tolerance.  They are super tight to slide on.   Many a day, Ive had difficulty trying to insert one blindly (by feel alone) into a monitor... yet, I could easily insert a PCB edge connector without issue.
 
 The smaller and tighter the tolerances, the higher accuracy you will need in making an exact positional matiing.  The differece between the Dsub and a ISA card, is not like 1 to 4. Its like 1 to 100, in the scale of magnitudes of difficulty in precision alignments.

 If your control panel had wooden guides, and one of the guides wore down a mere 1/2 a mm.. the dsub connect, that you spend hours and hours trying to precisly align... would fail to connect.

 Not only do you have to worry about the x and y precision, ... but also, in addition to wear, you must consider any twisting, sliding, warping, shrinkage / growth..etc.  From moisture, to heat / cold... as well as structural shifting / density issues.   (ever notice that certain doors in your house get tigher or looser, depending on the season? or house shifing..)

 
 A similar issue is found in gears.  If you use a very fine tooth gear, it requires very precise alignments.  If your off by a fraction, gears will skip and wear, and shear off.   Larger gears will be easier to work with, as you can be off by as much as a mm or more, and still make good enough connection to avoid wear and slippage.   If you would like to see proof of this, check out a real Arkanoid spinner.  Almost all of the old arkanoid spinners are toasted... and do not work correctly.  But yet, you can easily find large geared pedal sets that were made before Arkanoid, that were used and played more often... that still work flawlessly today.  No gear destruction at all.

Don't mind X2. The last time this conversation came up he had "the perfect solution", was requested pics, and never delivered. He's good at 2 things: napkin engineering, and blowing smoke. Not necessarily in that order either…

 To date, Ive built working Starwars and Super Hangon controllers, without even use of a simple sketch.   Its also a few of the reasons why I know more about materials and tolernaces.  Because of actual physical experience, with setbacks from failures of things actually built.. and or arcade / pinball related things that failed, that I repaired.

 This isnt about the perfect solution either.  This is about what is easier, and actually managable, by a non cnc / machinist.  As well as far more robust than hand-disconnecting cables.

[rCadeGaming]

Proprietary didnt mean squat for like 3 different generations of consoles.

Totally wrong.  Nintendo (among others) was always huge on controlling who could make anything that plugged into their consoles, and getting a cut through licensing.

Theres always a reason for a certain design.  Its pretty easy to understand, if you actually take the time to consider all the aspects.

 

Dsubs thin metal shell is also a weakness... as any small drop, and the metal will bend out out shape, making it impossible to insert the connectors together, without bending it back precisely.

Maybe you've got some crappy old VGA cables.  I've used the connectors I linked to for a lot of things.  They're not flimsy or fragile.  You'd have to a lot more than just drop them to bend them.

A large PCB edge connector, has like a full MM worth of play in any axis.  The conenctor will still be guided in without much trouble, even with a little slop.  But a Dsub has almost Zero tolerance.  They are super tight to slide on.   Many a day, Ive had difficulty trying to insert one blindly (by feel alone) into a monitor... yet, I could easily insert a PCB edge connector without issue.
 
 The smaller and tighter the tolerances, the higher accuracy you will need in making an exact positional matiing.  The differece between the Dsub and a ISA card, is not like 1 to 4. Its like 1 to 100, in the scale of magnitudes of difficulty in precision alignments.

The difference is 1 to 100 on a scale of magitude?  Do you even know what you're saying?  Total bull*crap.

A littler easier??!!  Again, Proove it.   You are so gung ho about how easy it is... then show up a working video of it sliding in and out freely, consecutivly, for 60 seconds of flawless in and out.  And also, document the time it takes you to actually Make such an accurate fail-proof connection.

Don't really need to take time out of my day to disprove your inaccurate/exaggerated conjecture.  The time spent typing here is more than enough.

[Xiaou2]

Totally wrong.

  Commodore Vic 20,
  C-64
  C-128
  Amigas
  Apple IIE, IIC, IIGS
  Atari 2600
  Colecovision
  X68000
  MSX
  Fm Towns
 Sega Master System/Mark III
 Sega Genesis/Megadrive 

  (and probably more)   ..all used the same gamepad connector.  Many are wired in such a way, that most will function across many if not all of those systems.

Maybe you've got some crappy old VGA cables.  I've used the connectors I linked to for a lot of things.  They're not flimsy or fragile.  You'd have to a lot more than just drop them to bend them.

 Just installed a bunch of brand new high dollar LCD monitors.  Dropped a brand new VGA cable less than 2ft... and had to fight to get it back into shape.  In fact, older may be better.  They used to make things more sturdy.  Now its about cutting costs, and intentional designed failure.  Any thin metal shell is easy to bend.  Its not rocket science.  Its pure physics.  The thinner the metal, the less strength it has.  Next you will tell me that VGA 'pins' are indestructible   

 

Do you even know what you're saying?

 Yup.  Else I wouldnt have said it.

Total bull*crap.

 Prove it.   

Don't really need to take time out of my day to disprove your inaccurate/exaggerated conjecture.

 No exaggerations here.  Mere experience.  A lot more than you probably ever will attain.  Especially with your crapitude.

 Ive worked on countless arcade machines, mechanical redemption machines, & pinball machines.... while working for a Namco owned arcade. Additionally, fixing them on the side, for home owners / collectors.  As well as my own personal machines. 

 Additionally, Ive scratch built, out of wood, metal, and gears:  A completely working starwars yoke, A super Hangon controller with twist throttle and cable brake,  a Sinistar controller with an actual multiplicative resistance spring-band system, custom spring loaded clamps, ball-bearing spinners, plastic molded spinner tops & custom bearing shells that fit inside button holes - ages before randys button-hole drop-in spinners, and much more.

 
 I have doubts you could even make a simple edge connector alignment.  Thats difficult enough for most people...  But a slide lock dsub?  Nah.  Doubt you have the skills.   Even I would shudder to attempt it... and not only that, but Id decline, because its stupidity.  No matter if you get it to align for a while.. it will eventually De-calibrate, and fail to align.

[rCadeGaming]

You're just spinnin' your tires...

[Lilwolf]

Isn't 25 a panel getting expensive enough that you would just get a cheap encoder per panel?  You can get some in 15-25 range now, then use usb?

I tried a bunch of things through the years, but ended up with.
I used multiple 25 serial cables cut in 1/2.  Then the males on the computer side, and female on control panels.  3 bucks a cable... and bough extra m-m.   90% of the ocntrol panels only have two plug ins. 

If I move anywhere it will be usb.  Now that we can get some super cheap ones, doesn't seem necessary.  might have some issues with configuration loss... but I dont' think so.

but one thing to mention.  your ends move around a LOT.  I had good solutions in the past when I created them, then after 6 months, I was constantly battling with broken leads.  the serial cables ends being enclosed at the factory seems to save this.  and the other side goes into a tac stip (thats what they are called right?).

[rCadeGaming]

A good hood will provide enough strain relief to avoid broken connections.  Here is an example of something I've done with d-sub connectors:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129501.0.html

[eds1275]

I have a feeling that over time the novelty of swapping out panels will get old and eventually you will be left with just one that lives in place, probably for most a joystick with buttons layout.

Might as well just build a frankenpanel or multiple machines! Everyone's seen this thing which I think is about as good looking as you can be with this many controls:
though I haven't played it to see how practical it would be.

Additionally, Ive scratch built, out of wood, metal, and gears:  A completely working starwars yoke, A super Hangon controller with twist throttle and cable brake,  a Sinistar controller with an actual multiplicative resistance spring-band system, custom spring loaded clamps, ball-bearing spinners, plastic molded spinner tops & custom bearing shells that fit inside button holes - ages before randys button-hole drop-in spinners, and much more.

I would love to see these things if you have any pictures! Especially the Sinistar controller, that sounds great.

[spystyle]

I can dig it, but a Frankenpanel doesn't look or feel authentic .. With swappable panels you can really replicate the classic panels.

But I think the monitor should rotate as well, that's my next project