Guns ... Today's Views?

[TheShaner]

I know there are quite a few threads out there about Light guns, one vs the other, pros / cons, etc.  Most of the threads are dated though.  Now that some of these guns have been out for some time, I am curious what everyone's views are on the guns they have, and how well they have worked for them.  I'm looking for things like: "I like mine because flippety flop ..." or "I should have bought the Whatchamadoodle" or even "Johnny sat on an ant mound and got the drip".

I am obviously probing because I am looking to add some guns to my cab and am shamelessly polling the boards for up to date info rather than spend hours looking at threads that are from 2010.

[HaRuMaN]

Well, a lot depends on whether you have an LCD or CRT screen.  Which do you have?

[Vigo]

I can say, if you are looking for a cheap solution, you should check out Howard's recent work on using wii remotes as lightguns. I haven't had to time to personally check it out, but being that wiimotes and gun cases for wiimotes is dirt cheap these days, it is a good route to consider. I believe anything else out there is gonna cost $50+ per gun and will often be corded.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,122350.msg1298765.html#msg1298765

So Wiimote as I see it:
Pros:
super cheap
works with crt or lcd
Howard should be able to help you quite a bit
Wireless

Cons:
Not heavily tested yet
Not arcade authentic
No recoil
need to have a wii bar, or 2 uv leds on your cab for calibration

[TheShaner]

Well I have a CRT (29" Makvision), but I am not just looking for feedback concerning my case.  There is a certain amount of curiosity across the board as well.  While yes, I am looking for info to help me make a decision, I also just curious how they generally all stack up.

Vigo, I am going to go more authentic on mine, and dont mind dishing out the coin for the best solution.  I am interested in how the Wiimotes work though, so I will definitely do some research and maybe even play around with one for the hell of it.

[Vigo]

Yep, I wasn't sure if cost was your biggest concern but I wanted to at least put it out there as an option for other people who would be referencing this thread. I completely agree with you that Lightgun stuff changes too much and it is one of those things that you can't easily reference old threads for accurate info.

[yotsuya]

I just bought an AimTrak last week.

Pros:

Works in MAME pretty well.
Don't have to stand too far for it to work.
Works with LCD screens.

Cons:

Recoil not standard, but I bet by this time next year it can/will be.

I plan to use it with a 25 inch CRT, so we'll see what happens when I test that out.

[pinballjim]

Recoil is annoying.  All you guys lining up to buy that new kit are going to have buyer's remorse in less than a week.

Higher resolution is a farce, too.  Who knew that arcade shooting games needed high resolution guns? 

Anyway, I'm a fan of the Top Guns.  Half the price, already in gun shell, and more functionality.  Work with anything. 

I am seriously considering opening mine up and desoldering the recoil so I can stop having to press two buttons every time I turn it on.

[Vigo]

I kinda figured Hi Res is a sales pitch, but I am a bit surprised by the recoil bit. I loved recoil in the arcades, but I guess i didn't play that many shooters in one sitting. Good to know there is a downside to it.

So are the act labs guns pretty much going extinct?

[BadMouth]

What I have experience with:

Act Labs (have used for a couple years)

    Pros - pixel accurate;can rely on sights on gun body, distance & height make no difference
           Windows sees as mouse
 
    Cons - Only works with CRT monitors/TVs, won't work well for positional gun games,
                        require recalibration when switching games unless all games set to same resolution,
                        no recoil, no longer being made.  I've read they don't work with 64-bit operating systems.
                        (actually now that I think about this, if it shows up as a mouse, why wouldn't it?
                         I will test on my driving cab that runs XP64 this weekend)
                         EDIT: Tested and they work fine on XP64
                                   Another note: they don't work on TVs or monitors that have built in processing (line doublers, progressive scan, etc)
                       
AIM-Trak  (Have only tinkered with for a few hours)

    Pros - Works with any screen type,  works with positional gun games, support from Andy
           Multiple shells and recoil options available
           (IIRC, www.arcadeguns.com is working on usb powered vibration motor)
               
    Cons - Not as accurate; must use onscreen crosshairs for best results
           (anyone who has managed to calibrate them accurately enough to
           turn off onscreen crosshairs and succeed in games please correct me if I'm wrong)

Wii controllers  (Have only tinkered with for a few hours)

    Pros - works with any screen type, cheap (unless you buy the ones I did), wireless

    Cons - Problematic bluetooth connections, Less accurate than AIM-Trak
           I sometimes get blue screen of death when connecting the 2nd gun.
           Definitely not ready for people who want something plug-n-play.

I'm tempted to order the Top Gun now just for the sake of comparing it, even though the IR emitters wouldn't fit between my monitor and bezel glass.

Other thoughts:

It's a subjective thing, but I've never been able to get IR guns to feel right.
I like being able to use the sights on the gun and swing it around by pivoting my body instead of trying to keep the gun in the same position it was in when calibrated.
People who are used to playing gun games on a wii would probably just go by the on-screen crosshairs anyway and it wouldn't bother them.

If my new cab had a CRT monitor, I'd probably try to use Act Labs guts stuck in different gun bodies with 24v recoil solenoids.  Haven't seen that done yet, but I think it would give me the experience that I want.
Playing for long periods of time, your arm gets tired and the recoil will make that a lot worse, but I have a short attention span and want the arcade experience.

The current plan for my LCD build is to use Wii guns and just accept that they aren't going to compare to real light guns.
  If I can't get the kinks worked out, the cab just won't have guns.  Except for the light bar taped to the top of the monitor, no modifications to the cab were necessary, so there really aren't any changes to make to the cab. 

I'd still like to see someone who knows their stuff give the USB2Gun a whirl.
For those who haven't been following gun threads, the USB2Gun is really just the gun board out of Gobal VR's America's Army (can't remember if the dedicated or conversion one is the correct one). 
Standard Happ arcade guns plug into it and it makes them show up as analogue joysticks.
It even supports recoil, but I don't know if the recoil signal is sent by the game or is handled on the board.
Too pricey for me to get just for the sake of testing.

So are the act labs guns pretty much going extinct?

They aren't made anymore, so yeah.

[pinballjim]

It's just impossible to get perfect accuracy with an IR gun.  It'll be great towards the center of the screen and off around the corners.  Watch the Youtube reviews, ALL of them have this problem.

Most arcade shooters seem to be based around how fast can you shoot something that pops up in the center of the screen so you don't really notice it.  I've horsed around with the Wii remotes too and wasn't all that satisfied for MAME use.  Nobody's ever gotten the PC stuff to work seamlessly.  I did enjoy the Wii game where you shot at a bunch of turkeys running around the screen and the Cross Fire is a joy to use.

I've never been a fan of prolonged recoil.  I modified a Saturn stunner 12 years ago and undid it.  If you open it up, the handle was clearly shaped to hold 2 AA batteries.  There's another empty slot near the trigger where a DC motor fits nicely.  I remember that the trigger switch had an extra set of contacts and I used that for the positive battery wire.  (perhaps it was all coincidental but it sure seemed like SEGA intended that thing to either pop or shake)  Last about 2 hours before I ripped it out.

[DarthMarino]

I tried the Wiimote thing a while back.  It did work but the bluetooth was very temperamental. I bought a pretty cheap blue tooth so that could have been the reason for the issue. Even so, between fighting to get the remote synched with the blue tooth, firing up the Wii to activate the sensor bar and running the Glove Pie scripts, it was a bit of a hassle. Once I did get into the game, something just felt off about the whole thing. If you're really on a budget it's not the worst option since the only new thing you would have to buy is the bluetooth which you can get for under 20 bucks.

I eventually had to cave in and get 2 Aimtrak guns.  I got the prebuilt ArcadeGuns.com units.  I haven't regretted the decision one bit (you can tell from the link in my signature).  My only real complaint is that the initial calibration was giving me some issues.  It's pretty much plug and play but once I tried to adjust the aim it wouldn't always respond.  After a half hour or so I finally got it down pat.  Since then, I haven't had one issue and it feels great when you are playing.  I have tried without the crosshairs on and it seemed to be working OK but I just don't "trust" it.  I actually prefer the crosshairs on so I didn't dabble with it too much. If playing with them off is a must, it might not be the best option.

[wp34]

I tried the Wiimote thing a while back.  It did work but the bluetooth was very temperamental. I bought a pretty cheap blue tooth so that could have been the reason for the issue. Even so, between fighting to get the remote synched with the blue tooth, firing up the Wii to activate the sensor bar and running the Glove Pie scripts, it was a bit of a hassle. Once I did get into the game, something just felt off about the whole thing. If you're really on a budget it's not the worst option since the only new thing you would have to buy is the bluetooth which you can get for under 20 bucks.

I eventually had to cave in and get 2 Aimtrak guns.  I got the prebuilt ArcadeGuns.com units.  I haven't regretted the decision one bit (you can tell from the link in my signature).  My only real complaint is that the initial calibration was giving me some issues.  It's pretty much plug and play but once I tried to adjust the aim it wouldn't always respond.  After a half hour or so I finally got it down pat.  Since then, I haven't had one issue and it feels great when you are playing.  I have tried without the crosshairs on and it seemed to be working OK but I just don't "trust" it.  I actually prefer the crosshairs on so I didn't dabble with it too much. If playing with them off is a must, it might not be the best option.

I just watched your videos (I assume they are yours).  I've been on the fence about Light Guns but I am sold now.    

[BadMouth]

I have tried without the crosshairs on and it seemed to be working OK but I just don't "trust" it.  I actually prefer the crosshairs on so I didn't dabble with it too much. If playing with them off is a must, it might not be the best option.

If I do end up adding IR guns to my current build, I want to try to swap out the default crosshair images for laser dots.
For some reason it would feel like less of a compromise having laser dots than big crosshairs. 

[yotsuya]

Yeah, I wasn't even planning on getting guns until this guy I built a cab for asked me about them. He bought a pair of AimTraks, and I was hooked after using one. I'm planning on building a dedicated gun cab using a 25 inch arcade CRT and the AimTrak.

[BadMouth]

I've read they don't work with 64-bit operating systems.
                        (actually now that I think about this, if it shows up as a mouse, why wouldn't it?
                         I will test on my driving cab that runs XP64 this weekend)
       

Just tested the Act Labs gun on XP64 and it works fine, at least the model I have which is the ray gun style.
Just lost my excuse for not redoing my main setup. 

[yotsuya]

Just spent about an hour and a half playing with my AimTrak. I played some of my favorite shooters with no problem. Then I fired an all my American Laser Games as a test, and they were good to go. It was fun playing Crime Patrol and Mad Dog McCree in my loving room. Definitely worth getting, if you want guns.

[mimic]

I am seriously considering opening mine up and desoldering the recoil so I can stop having to press two buttons every time I turn it on.

Then why not follow this tutorial... http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,93642.msg1278485.html#msg1278485[/quote]

[DarthMarino]

I just watched your videos (I assume they are yours).  I've been on the fence about Light Guns but I am sold now.   

They most certainly are.  Glad to help. 

[Wade007]

I'm partial to Arcade Guns (Aim-Trak based guns). I've calibrated them carefully and accurately enough to be able to turn off MAME default cross-hairs.

Read about them here along with embedded YouTube review demo:
http://www.cheapskategamer.com/pc_game_stories_and_news/true-light-gun-support-for-pc-gaming-the-arcade-guns%E2%84%A2-product-review/

The rumor is that the owner of Arcade guns has been working on a recoil version of his Arcade Guns. Soon to be unveiled. Again...rumor. You didn't hear it from me.

[Vigo]

It was fun playing Crime Patrol and Mad Dog McCree in my loving room.

You have a room devoted to loving? Someone's a player. Giggity giggity.

[yotsuya]

It was fun playing Crime Patrol and Mad Dog McCree in my loving room.

You have a room devoted to loving? Someone's a player. Giggity giggity.

[Le Chuck]

I have owned and used both the Aimtrak system and the ACT Labs CRT guns.  If you have a CRT in your cab and are not worried about cost you are a fool if you go with Aimtrak or any gun that isn't a classic CRT zapper.  The ACT Labs guns are far and beyond the most accurate and best feeling guns out there.  It would be a fairly simple mod to reshell them and even add recoil if that's your thing but I side with PBJ on recoil.  ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- gets annoying after a few minutes. The resolution issue was never a problem as I just forced the same resolution for all the shooting games and off I'd go.  If that cab hadn't been destroyed by a moving company I'd probably have never built another one.   

It does become a question of cost tho, I recently sold my ACT labs setup as I finally admitted that I wasn't going back to CRT unless it was on an original dedicated cab.  I got $280 for it (one gun and two control boxes.  Didn't even have both guns, recently found the 2nd one in a junk box).  Way more than I originally paid when they first came out so if you're going for the best you're going to pay a premium it looks like. 

Until there is "the next great solution" I'll be playing around with positional guns.  I won't do as well on the games where careful aim is required but I've always favored the pray-n-sprays anyway, plus I can use a projector or whatever screen I plug into since it's just an analogue controller and for my gaming pleasure it is far better to be using a positional gun than the current IR solutions which I find just aren't yet ready for prime time.     

[Nephasth]

If you have a CRT in your cab and are not worried about cost you are a fool if you go with Aimtrak or any gun that isn't a classic CRT zapper.

...or you just can't find the proper gun for your machine's configuration. ACT Labs guns aren't readily available, and the ones that do come up from time to time (the ones I've seen pop up) are the TV guns and not the VGA guns.

[BadMouth]

Anyone who has been around for a long time remember the peak price of used Act Labs guns the first time they were discontinued?
I thought I saw an old thread about it, but can't find it now.  I don't remember what the price was, but it was absurd.

I paid $35 for each of my s-vid ray guns. 
There were a pair of the arcade style VGA ones in buy/sell/trade not long ago for $100 for the pair. 

[BadMouth]

Anyone who has been around for a long time remember the peak price of used Act Labs guns the first time they were discontinued?

$208.55 for a single gun, Feb 2005 
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,32758.msg281259.html#msg281259

[Le Chuck]

Anyone who has been around for a long time remember the peak price of used Act Labs guns the first time they were discontinued?

$208.55 for a single gun, Feb 2005 
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,32758.msg281259.html#msg281259

I couldn't believe how high my auction went.  I was figuring in the $100 range. 

If you have a CRT in your cab and are not worried about cost you are a fool if you go with Aimtrak or any gun that isn't a classic CRT zapper.

...or you just can't find the proper gun for your machine's configuration. ACT Labs guns aren't readily available, and the ones that do come up from time to time (the ones I've seen pop up) are the TV guns and not the VGA guns.

Well, yeah, supply availability not withstanding.  Still, FOOOLISHHH!

[Nephasth]

There were a pair of the arcade style VGA ones in buy/sell/trade not long ago for $100 for the pair. 

Link? All I could find was this from back in January - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,117614.msg1246037.html#msg1246037

I'd pick up a pair if I could find the ones I need...

[pinballjim]

Top Gun 3 is $50 and done.

You can spend more but it won't play any better.

[Nephasth]

Top Gun 3 is $50 and done.

You can spend more but it won't play any better.

“Quality is like buying oats.
If you want nice, clean, fresh oats,
you must pay a fair price.
However, if you can be satisfied with oats
that have already been through the horse ...
that comes a little cheaper."

[RandyT]

The unfortunate answer is that little has changed on the gun scene.  For LCD monitors, there are only a couple of options, neither of which work as well as a something like a Guncon2 on a CRT.  For older arcade games which used a positional device (basically a gun mounted on a modified analog joystick) where crosshairs were visible in the game, the IR solutions work pretty well, but need a bit more distance from the screen than those original controls were typically positioned.  Despite their drawbacks, it's still better than playing with a mouse.

My recommendation for true gun game aficionados is still to get the largest RGB CRT you can get your hands on, a PS2, a Guncon, a Guncon2 and every used PS and PS2 gun game you can find.  There's a decent library between the two systems, and they are cheap now.  You won't be able to play everything you might want, and it won't help you with MAME, but the titles you can play on this type of setup should more than give you your fix of the real arcade gun game experience.  I have a 36" RGB setup and would trade it for nothing.  And yes, I have all the IR solutions as well, but they don't see much use as I can't bring myself to use crosshairs on shooting games.  Feels too much like playing with a "free-air" mouse, rather than the true shooting experience. 

I've also tried the wonky commercial Wii and Kinect approaches.  I don't know how these things even made it to market, they are, IMHO, that poor.

[wp34]

If you have a CRT in your cab and are not worried about cost you are a fool if you go with Aimtrak or any gun that isn't a classic CRT zapper.  The ACT Labs guns are far and beyond the most accurate and best feeling guns out there.

I've been kicking that around since I have a 27" CRT it seems silly not to take advantage of it.  Cost is an issue for me though.  Too bad they don't make those anymore.

[ahofle]

Until there is "the next great solution" I'll be playing around with positional guns. 

Whatever became of those 'sonic' guns that used sound instead of IR for tracking?  I believe it was David Foley who first advertised those being under development a few years ago.  Seemed like a much better solution than IR and being forced to stand 6 feet away from the screen.  I know he's been 'busy' but I'm surprised no one else has come up with a similar solution.

[pinballjim]

Distance problem with IR guns is solved with a 90 cent wide angle lens.


 

[wp34]

Top Gun 3 is $50 and done.

You can spend more but it won't play any better.

Do you have the Top Gun 3?  I've looked at it on Amazon but the reviews are mixed.  It also appears to be IR.  If you have one I am curious what you think.

[Nephasth]

Anyway, I'm a fan of the Top Guns.  Half the price, already in gun shell, and more functionality.  Work with anything*. 

*Except CoinOps...

[pinballjim]

CoinOps doesn't work with any light gun.  The Top Gun works fine with the 3 or 4 Xbox games that use light guns.

[Nephasth]

Question about the wide angle lens solution... does it have a negative effect at further distances? Or do the guns function the same as they would without the lens at those distances?

[yotsuya]

Question about the wide angle lens solution... does it have a negative effect at further distances? Or do the guns function the same as they would without the lens at those distances?

Maybe related to distance- I thought it was interesting that arcadeguns.com offered this:

http://www.arcadeguns.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=225&zenid=2kvpm7ei8ehaha3a7f02bmflb6

You could probably get a cheap 4:3 projection TV off CL or from Goodwill and make a nice shooting pedestal cab.

[pinballjim]

Question about the wide angle lens solution... does it have a negative effect at further distances? Or do the guns function the same as they would without the lens at those distances?

I've only done some limited testing, but here's what I found.

I'm using a 17" LCD which is about the same as a 19" CRT.  Without the wide angle lens, the gun needed to be about 5-6 feet away from the sensors (which seems to be the consensus). 

For the lens, I bought one of those ~90 cent jelly things on E-bay.  I tore off the adhesive ring and snipped the little nub sticking off the side, put it against the tip of the barrel, and mounted it with one wrap of black electrical tape.  Very high tech. 

At the old distance, I found no change in performance.  I could reduce the distance by about half and it played the same.  The gun takes all of 5 seconds to calibrate so I can't imagine larger distances being a problem.  All you're doing is making easier for the gun to see all the LEDs at shorter distances.

[yotsuya]

I just bought one of those things to test it out.