Radio buttons

[Le Chuck]

Remember how your old car stereo had a row of preset buttons that were conditional?  Only one could be pressed at a time.  There was a mechanical contraption that controlled that rather than a software solution. 

Anybody know where I can get one?  Can one still buy them?  I'm thinking I need to go hit the junk yard and grab an old radio as my google-fu has totally failed me, even when I use -gui, -html and -excel I still get all kinds of crap about radio buttons in menus. 

I'd really like a row of four or five toggle switches in which only one an be selected at a time but push buttons could work just as well providing they are largish. 

I'm working on a 4 way shifter solution that is unothodox (insert usual suspects to tell me why this is a bad idea and how I'm ruining gameplay).  I welcome all hairbrained half cocked construction ideas as well.  I am shooting for something purely mechanical with no need for a servo or AHK script or anything other than fantastic tactile feedback. 

[DaOld Man]

Would this work?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-1968-1969-1970-1971-1972-Chevrolet-GMC-AM-Truck-Radio-/221101604495?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item337aaebe8f&vxp=mtr

(Sorry for long link, its late)

[Le Chuck]

That's exactly what I'm talking about.  Just don't know if they are momentary or push-lock.  To use somewhat correct terminology I'm looking for 4 ganged linked SPST push-lock (on/off) switches... i think   

[PL1]

Your best bet is to find a local source for a 4 or 5 button radio so you can verify it has properly working buttons that latch to the "in" position like daoldman's suggestion. (5th button for neutral?)

Adapt that mechanism to something like this.

Blue is the spring-loaded slide plate.

As you push a button, the plate slides to the side, releasing any other buttons (which are spring loaded to pop up) and locking the pressed button under the slide plate.  Length of the ramps are not to scale, and the width and placement are critical.

Fabricating this from scratch would be a nightmare, but this is very doable by adapting a radio from a you-pull-it yard or a pawn shop.

BTW, why didn't daoldman just tell Corey or Chumlee to go dig one out?  You know they must have some in the warehouse. 


Scott

[Hurray Banana]

As PL1 said easier to get an old radio and adapt existing mechanism, you seem to be able to buy the buttons cheaply enough but not the gang part that links them together.

Here's a link to a patent for the design, if you want to see in more detail how they work

http://www.google.com/patents?id=zewBAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Le Chuck]

Found this after some searching.  Had to buy four to meet the minimum order requirement of Nebraska Surplus.  I'm thinking that I can take it apart and drop in a working switch in place of the all off switch.  Will do some experimenting.  It's a bit on the small side, depending on how it's made I'll try to spread them apart and incorporate some larger buttons, maybe illuminated.  For $12 total I couldn't really resist.   

[drventure]

Oh, man. An 8-track in a speeder bike. Now that's seriously new-old-school.

[Le Chuck]

Oh, man. An 8-track in a speeder bike. Now that's seriously new-old-school.

Well there's a cassette player on the outside of the ANH x-wings so I figured I should incorporate some original SW Tech stylistic elements... ie dated electronics. 

[drventure]

That's awesome. And making them actually do something? Even better!

[TopJimmyCooks]

blender if you need up to 8 switches.  (Will it blend?)

[BadMouth]

blender if you need up to 8 switches.  (Will it blend?)

For some reason, that made me think of my s-vid switcher:


Feels kinda plasticky, not sure how it's laid out inside.

[MaxVolume]

It's a bad idea and you're ruining gameplay.  ...oh crap, I'm too late. 

 

[BadMouth]

I was thinking something like a bicycle shifter on the handlebars, but limited to simply being an up/down sequential shifter.
That, or a heel/toe shifter when the design still incorporated footrests.

[Le Chuck]

PBJ, good call man, that key word string returns a log of good stuff like this



For 15 or so bucks it might be worth snatching it up just to rip it apart, I like the idea of the mode LEDs but it's probably momentary rather than on/off and relies on circuitry to hold state.

Bad mouth, a lot of the vid switchers are like what I suspect the above to be.  Yours looks like a ganged linked switch though as it is lacking indicator LEDs.  May take a look at that one as well if others don't pan out.  As for the toe shifter that was the original plan but you lose too much lateral stability with the footrest in play and compensating with stiffer springs just makes it harder to hit the screen edges.  I'm still toying with a handle mounted shifter but the speeder handles are distal to proximal rather than the normal way meaning anything mounted has to be done on the outer edge.  More tinkering will be required once I get the handles done. 

 

[Le Chuck]

- They they take a lot of force to press/activate.. which would be too much fatigue to use often.
 - They have very long travel.  Causes problems with accurate timing.
 - The buttons usually are not finger-friendly. Sharp edges, uncomfortable.
 - The layout spacing isnt optimal.

 I think a sequential multi-position slide-lock switch system would be a better solution. ... if you want linear held-down shifting. Cylindrical Bike shifter style is another decent idea. (multi-stop pot-switchs)

Good points though not necessarily insurmountable.  Those ergonomic issues you listed will have to be addressed.  The slide lock system would work and fits in with the Speeders upper CP design from the film but I don't know if it will have the wow factor that I'm looking for, of course I have to balance that with play-ability.  What I really would like is a series of 4 ganged linked large toggle switches but haven't seen anything like that.   

I'll probably experiment with a 4 pole 5 position rotary switch in the left handle as a twist clutch.  I don't want to end up with a big dial on the CP.  That wouldn't be cool. 

[PL1]

Since you mentioned levers, here is a design that should work.

The shift levers (green) have springs that pull them back to the rear crossbar (orange circle) when not latched or pushed forward.  The microswitches are mounted to a pivot bar (gray). The pivot bar is either spring loaded (black loop) or counter-weighted to return to the upright position when not pushed forward by a lever.  Both the levers and the pivot bar turn around an axis (blue) that runs all the way through all 4 levers and the pivot bar.

The starting position on the left shows lever 1 forward with the spring-loaded latch (yellow) engaged.  When you push lever 2 forward, the ramp on latch 2 slides up and over the pivot bar.  As you continue to push forward, lever 2 pushes the pivot bar until it is stopped by the forward crossbar. (orange square)  As levers 1 and 2 reach the forward crossbar, both latches ride up on the forward crossbar, disengaging both of them from the pivot bar.  Since you are not holding lever 1, the spring pulls it back to the rear crossbar. (orange circle)  As you release lever 2, the pivot bar returns to the upright position allowing the spring-loaded latch on lever 2 to slide down to engage and hold lever 2 in the forward position.

The latches (yellow) should not pivot down lower than 90 degrees relative to the lever body to ensure that they can ride up and over the pivot bar. If you look at the side view, the latch is at the bottom of the white cutout.

Mount the lever-arm style microswitches so that the pivot bar prevents the lever from crushing them.


Scott

[DaOld Man]

For the real die hard do it yourselfer.
I have come up with a way to maybe use arcade pushbuttons to do what you want.
The drawing shows the button pressing the relay armature which "seals in" (or latches) the armature being pushed while killing power (unlatching) all other buttons.
I show limit switches as the switches that do the electrical work, but you could possibly use the switch to actually press against the relay armature, and use the actual relay contacts in place of switches, but the travel of the button wouldnt be very far, and unless you attach the button to the relay armature, the button would spring back up. Detaching the relay armature and attaching it to the button will give you a lot more button travel.
The spring in the button pulls the armature off the coil when power is cut by pressing a different button. If the armature is very heavy, an additional spring may have to be used.
Plus another set of contacts or switches may have to be used to do the interfacing to the computer.
I think small solenoids could be used instead of relays, but they would have to be rated for continous use.
At the bottom of the pic is a schematic diagram of the circuit.

[DaOld Man]

After studying my circuit, this may not work, due to the limit switch of the button being pressed may be faster than the releasing of the armature of another relay that is currently made, resulting in two buttons being held down at once.
But maybe this will be fuel for someone else to think out?
Using a micro controller such as pic chip would probably make this idea work better.

[DaOld Man]

Ok, when I get something on my mind I cant eat sleep or drink beer until I get it worked out (well, two out of three aint bad).

Using a NOR gate and some AND gates will make my contraption work.
When button A is pressed, switch 1 is made, which sends a pulse through capacitor CA to set a low at output of the NOR gate. Once CA charges, a high is outputted on the NOR, which sets the AND gate output high, which turns on relay A through it's buffer circuit. the AND Gate output stays high because switch 1 is held closed by the relay.
When another switch is pressed, (lets say switch B), The NOR Gate output goes low until capacitor CB is charged.
The NOR gate output going low causes the AND gate on relay A to go low, which turns off relay A.
When capacitor CB is charged, the relay B turns on, same as relay A did above.
The resistors on the NOR gate inputs tie the inputs to ground.
How long you have to hold the button is based on the capacitor and its grounding resistor. Larger values mean longer time required to hold the button in before it seals.
The time period should be long enough to allow the other relays to clear their associated switch, but short enough to catch a quick push, such as you would have during game play.
The relay buffers are switching circuits that can handle the current of the relay coil. Not shown are protective diodes around the relay coils.

[Le Chuck]

^ This is awesome.  It's also out of my experience so I have a few questions.  I take it this uses SPST momentary switches and the state is held by the logic gates?  That being the case where can I jack in LEDs to signal which switch is currently active ?  Also, can you do a design with 5 states so I can map N to fourth gear?  Lastly, any chance of some help with a shopping list  ?  I'm still going to fiddle with my incoming mechanical switches but I think I need to build this for side by side play comparison.  Thanks boss!

[DaOld Man]

^ This is awesome.  It's also out of my experience so I have a few questions.  I take it this uses SPST momentary switches and the state is held by the logic gates?  That being the case where can I jack in LEDs to signal which switch is currently active ?  Also, can you do a design with 5 states so I can map N to fourth gear?  Lastly, any chance of some help with a shopping list  ?  I'm still going to fiddle with my incoming mechanical switches but I think I need to build this for side by side play comparison.  Thanks boss!

Well, actually the switch is held on by the relay. This circuit goes hand in hand with the very first drawing I made with the relay holding the button down. But instead of using two switches as in the first drawing, it uses one.
The button symbol in the second drawing is actually the N.O. limit switch on the left side of the button in the first drawing. (I got lazy in the second drawing).
I suppose you could use the second switch to turn on an led. Or just wire the led (with a dropping resistor) across the relay coil. When relay is on led is on.
As far as adding more switches, you will just need to add more AND gates, button/relay mods, and perhaps an OR gate for one of the NOR gate inputs.
When I know for sure you want to go this route I will look up part numbers for you.

[Le Chuck]

Well, actually the switch is held on by the relay. This circuit goes hand in hand with the very first drawing I made with the relay holding the button down. But instead of using two switches as in the first drawing, it uses one.
The button symbol in the second drawing is actually the N.O. limit switch on the left side of the button in the first drawing. (I got lazy in the second drawing).
I suppose you could use the second switch to turn on an led. Or just wire the led (with a dropping resistor) across the relay coil. When relay is on led is on.
As far as adding more switches, you will just need to add more AND gates, button/relay mods, and perhaps an OR gate for one of the NOR gate inputs.
When I know for sure you want to go this route I will look up part numbers for you.

Good deal, I'll take another look at it.  Thanks!

I really cant see button shifting being very functional at all.   In an intense game, you cant actually Look at the CP.  So you have to rely on touch.  But in many games, you cant keep your hands on the shifter, cause you need them for other functions.    Even if you manage to get your hand in the correct area... remembering the position... and or even feeling it, isnt going to be a very quick and precise thing.

 I also dont see how an ancient toggle switch system is anything to wow over.  No offense, but It makes me laugh to think that anyone would want to use such a thing.

 If you want to Wow, then make it so you cant shift at all, unless you are pressing a clutch mechanism down.
You can add put LEDs to show what gear your in on the dash.  And or better yet, a digital readout of the simulated speed.

 Other Wows...

 - Coil based shock system when braking hard?,  and or for when you get hit, as force feedback.
 - Build in Engine sounds (and other sounds), into the unit.  (analog throttle based pitch/changes + gear ratio)
 - Transducers / bass shakers
 - Blower fans that simulate wind via analog throttle speed
 - Motorized system for movements.

 - A ROTJ speeder game, thats actually worth playing.

- Use of  three  3d-projectors in an enclosure, to fully immerse.


 Anyways, remember, its not about looks.  Its about good control.  If people feel something isnt easy to control, they will be turned off by it, no matter how good they think it looks.

A few notes...

1) It is about looks.  These are elaborate toys.  You have to get the player on the thing and willing to pop a quarter in on looks alone.  I'm not trying to make an end all be all car racing rig.  I'm trying to design a large star wars toy that incidentally plays some racing games. 

2) I'll keep my own counsel about what can wow an audience when properly executed.  There are two different ways to wow you know.  One is with unique, subtle, and well executed design within an identifiable theme.  The other is to build something like this:

http://www.wickedretarded.com/~crapmame/6.html
but that's not the type of wow I'm looking for. 

3) You inability to imagine something as useful has no bearing on anyone else's ability to create a useful execution. 

4) Speeders don't have dashes.

5) Blower fans?  Seriously?

6) If you knew my comment in the very first post was about you and you did

I give opinions to be helpful.   Not to shoot people down.

Why did you show up where you weren't wanted?

[yaksplat]

Who can turn down a good blower?

fan that is.


I'm a fan of the fan on my dad's whirlwind.  It's a neat addition to the game.

[DaOld Man]

Lechuck,
If you are willing to give up the maintained button feature, you can use the same circuit to latch on the output for the button being pressed.
Of course the button will not stay in when pressed, but you could have it light up.
I have edited the drawing to show all 5 buttons, and the latching resistor (5 total). I also drew in the LEDs.
The outs will go to your PC or controller.
If the outs need to be pulsed instead always on, then you will need additional circuits to supply the pulse.

[Le Chuck]

^ Excellent!  Thanks so much, I'll start throwing together a parts list.  This could be a great little side project. 

[Nightbring3r]

What about an old mult-line office phone? I seem to recall using ones that were mechanical, but it's been awhile.

[Le Chuck]

Im well capable of making pretty looking & fully functional ORIGINAL 'Artistic' pieces, well beyond your Copycat cutworks.  But thanks for the plug anyways.

Please reply with links, pics, or something so we can all take a look at your completed builds or just go away.  I have been on a Star Wars kick this year (that's right all these copycat cutworks have been turned out in a single year), it's not all I do, but I have enjoyed it very much.  No apologies from me, I'm pretty sure other folks around here have occasionally like my work too.  I don't enjoy your presence on any of my threads.  You're a nay sayer.  Negative Nancy.  The "helpful" dose of reality where it isn't needed.  I don't like who you choose to be and I wish you would stop crapping on my threads.  But that aside I'm patiently waiting to be wowed by your works.

[yotsuya]

 Its pretty easy to get someone to jump on a new game.   That was never the problem.  The problem was that when the game played like Dog Poop...

Was that Dog Poop from 1982 by SEGA, or was there a Dog Poop bootleg we're not aware of? Is it in MAME?

[BadMouth]

 Its pretty easy to get someone to jump on a new game.   That was never the problem.  The problem was that when the game played like Dog Poop...

Was that Dog Poop from 1982 by SEGA, or was there a Dog Poop bootleg we're not aware of? Is it in MAME?

Certainly Dog Poop MUST have been dumped.

[Le Chuck]

I think he was talking about the physical substance.  I'm not sure but I imagine it to be squishy.  The games were squishy?

[yotsuya]

I think he was talking about the physical substance.  I'm not sure but I imagine it to be squishy.  The games were squishy?

But we're talking about games, and he capitalized "Dog Poop" as if it were a title. Damn my nine years of teaching English!!!

[Le Chuck]

Was there something confusing about me asking for either 1) Links to back up your claim of superiority or 2) That you go away?  There really wasn't a third option there.  If you have no funds and poor health you're not exactly "well capable" by the way.  Well capable usually means a demonstrated ability to execute on a plan.

We all know you can talk, we don't need further examples of your hot air. 

I don't have time for you.  Blocked.

[MaxVolume]

Was there something confusing about me asking for either 1) Links to back up your claim of superiority or 2) That you go away?  There really wasn't a third option there.  If you have no funds and poor health you're not exactly "well capable" by the way.  Well capable usually means a demonstrated ability to execute on a plan.

We all know you can talk, we don't need further examples of your hot air. 

I don't have time for you.  Blocked.

 Bravo, dude. 

This reminds me of something I've been meaning to express for quite a while.  I'm not trying to take anything away from those who have to have everything 100% accurate (although I do feel a bit sorry for them, and wonder why they don't just buy the original cabinets... must be a lack of funds and/or energy), but it occurs to me that with any kind of simulation there's a certain very constant relationship between what is very simple to achieve and what would be 100% accurate.  I guess the simplest way to express it is that 99% authenticity can be achieved with minimal effort, and that final 1% takes a great deal of time, effort and expense.  For this reason, the lengths people go to in order to close that 1% gap have always baffled me.  I'm sure it's mostly because that 1% doesn't bother me and it bothers others, but it's more than that.

At the moment, I'm about 99% finished with FLYNN'S, and because I've been working so hard on it for so long at the expense of MANY other interests, I've kind of stepped back and avoided working on it while getting back into those other things I've been neglecting.  Of course that particular 1% gap wouldn't require a lot of effort to close, it's just that I've reached a sort of saturation point with the project.  I do still spend hours late at night working on organizing the games and planning the menu system, but I've had enough of the hands-on stuff for now.

What I'm actually referring to is that MAME requires so little effort to get SO close to the original experience, simply because it runs the EXACT same code as the original machines.  It doesn't take much more than that to provide a reasonably good reproduction of the original games, although I did make sure my cocktail project had a CRT and I'm using an SVGA CRT for FLYNN'S so vector games will look much better than on an LCD display (although playing a real Asteroids Deluxe cabinet recently reminded me that it's still a long way from the beauty of a true vector display).

I guess I've been clear enough, and I've probably gone on for too long, but I'll wrap up by attempting a graphical representation of what I'm talking about:

Authenticity:  XXXXXXXXX (9 out of 10)
Effort: XX (2 out of 10)

Authenticity:  XXXXXXXXXX (10 out of 10)
Effort: XXXXXXXXXX (10 out of 10)

Anybody else get what I'm saying?

 

[DaOld Man]

Hows this project coming along?
Based on the info you gave me, I have this final drawing.
If anyone sees anything wrong with this circuit please speak up.
It has not been tested.

[Le Chuck]

DaOld Man - It has been stalled this week as I was out of town but I'm back in the saddle now.  Can't tell you how much I appreciate you going the extra mile on this diagram.  I'll get it tested out and be sure and post results with pics so if others want to capitalize on your solution they'll be able to.  As you suggested I'll breadboard the initial.  Thanks again!

MaxVolume - I get what you're saying.  I just hope when I get to the end of this project that I'm in spitting distance of that 99%