Check out this $35 PC!?!?!

[TalkingBull]

http://www.raspberrypi.org/

I just heard about this thing and the very first thing that came to mind was 'How can I build an arcade machine out of this?"  I am going to get one (When they get more in stock) and put it through some tests to evaluate its ability to run emulators.  I am thinking that if this works well enough, it would be a really LOW COST option for building cabs... and it is also so small...  Often I have to widen a base to make room for power supplies and HDDs when I build bartops. 

Did anyone get one of these and try this already?

[SNAAKE]

cpu speed lol???

[wivelden]

I wouldnt think anyone has one yet as they only went on sale yesterday morning and have already sold out.

[TalkingBull]

ARM1176JZF-S 700 MHz processor, VideoCore IV GPU, and 128 or 256 Megabytes of RAM.  Should be enough to run MAME.

[Thenasty]

for $35 dollars, I'll sell you 500mhz LAPTOP (it was a project, never got around to it) The LCD screen is out of it's casing.

I should go get it and take pics and post it here and at B/S/T.

[Thenasty]

ok here it is.

I just fired it up again.

It's a Gateway Solo 2550
500mhz
128MB RAM
5GB HD

As you can see, I plan to make it VERTICAL. i extended the cord in the back so you can flip it vertically.

PM me if you wan it. I'll post it B/S/T later on.

$35.00 + S/H (come pick it up if you want).

I have Win98 DOS loaded with DOS SOUNDCARD working (did not get into optimizing)
It has MAME 36 Final (with NO NAG, No WIGGLE JOYTICK or anything msg). It's my own build back in the days.

WIN98 INSTALL FILES are also in the HD. You can install 98.

[TalkingBull]

The purpose of my posting this was to suggest the $35 PC because it is so small.  Something like this should be ideal for running MAME or NES emulators and it's the size of a credit card.

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

Yeah, this is approximately the 10th thread about it.  We'll see if it's actually ever available sale.  It's also more like $60.

Are you talking about a second batch, since the first one sold out earlier today?

http://www.osnews.com/story/25661/Raspberry_Pi_launch_turns_into_frenzy

[SNAAKE]

hdmi port and everything

[Turvey]

Someone making Custom Cases cases for them already!

Check the Q&A's 

[Howard_Casto]

Holy frikkin crap.... my internet has never been down for more than a few mintues in the past two years..... my modem finally decides to take a nose-dive and they release the PI during the couple of days it goes down!

(off to grumble and order)

[RayB]

700mhz will only get you going with some old version of MAME, like 0.78 or earlier.

[Dervacumen]

Raspberry Pastry for sale.  May take longer than anticipated to arrive because of the high percentage of loss due to poor handling, up to 40%.

[knave]

700mhz will only get you going with some old version of MAME, like 0.78 or earlier.

I disagree...I run a much newer version on my old PC and it's only 800mhz. Just about everything played just fine save for the known problem children.
(I havn't checked in a while but I want to say 114 or thereabouts...I think I set it up in 2008 so whatever was current then)

[paigeoliver]

You aren't really missing anything by running an old mame version anyway, particularly on older hardware. What would you really be missing out on, mahjong games, fruit machines, trivia games and a bunch of 3D games that require a beastly computer to run and specialty controls to play?

Very few games of any importance got added after about .60 or so and each and every mame release is slower than the last (a generalization, may get faster for some games while getting slower for others but the overall trend is towards slower). That is why you will see plenty of people running cabinets with ancient mame versions and not bothering to update the mame version on their desktop either.

Pretty much every game you ever hear much chatter about was emulated pretty much perfectly 10 years ago.

[Howard_Casto]

Pretty much every game you ever hear much chatter about was emulated pretty much perfectly 10 years ago.

You couldn't be more incorrect with that statement.  The best example I can give is gorf.... sure it was ADDED ages ago, but it never ran correctly until around version .110.  Heck we're just now getting samples for 005! Classic drivers get improvments all the time, they just don't get any press because the latest rom kiddiez game was released.  They just recently did a major overhaul to robotron, for example.

[paigeoliver]

I am aware that they keep tweaking the emulation of the classics, and I appreciate the work done to get things perfect.

So yes, you are correct, from a technical aspect the emulation wasn't perfect 10 years ago and probably isn't perfect now. I know the technical aspect of correct emulation has always been very important to you. So my blanket statement at the end there wasn't perfectly accurate.

However the vast majority of these tweaks are things that the end user will never notice without a real machine running side by side with mame or they involve very obscure titles that few people really care about.

Gorf is a great example since I have been playing that in Mame for years and I never knew anything was even wrong with it, and I literally had a Mamed Gorf machine in my living room for 5 years and dozens of people played hundreds of games of Gorf on it. While 005 is a great example of an incredibly obscure game that no one ever talks about (only reason anyone ever even heard of it is because of where it is alphabetically). It is great they added samples to it, but that probably wouldn't be the thing that made it worth upgrading your mame installation.

The robotron speed overhaul is definitely a real worthwhile thing though, and the only tweak of a classic that has ever excited me. Particularly since it was one of the few top tier classics that had any major noticeable emulation problems. However even that problem is one that only a tiny minority of people would ever be able to spot. People who hadn't already developed the ability to run marathon sessions of robotron on real hardware would never even realize the difference.

I am actually thinking about putting a separate mame install on my cabinet just because of that Robotron tweak (assuming the 6 year old PC in there could even run it). I could ALMOST marathon Robotron on the first generation Jamma Multiwilliams machine I used to own (which ran it the same way mame did). Chances are I could probably marathon it for real now that they have the speed right.

So, um, yeah, everyone, Howard is right, it does just keep getting more accurate. But don't let that make you feel like you are missing out if you have to run the old version.

Pretty much every game you ever hear much chatter about was emulated pretty much perfectly 10 years ago.

You couldn't be more incorrect with that statement.  The best example I can give is gorf.... sure it was ADDED ages ago, but it never ran correctly until around version .110.  Heck we're just now getting samples for 005! Classic drivers get improvments all the time, they just don't get any press because the latest rom kiddiez game was released.  They just recently did a major overhaul to robotron, for example.

[yotsuya]

I'm excited to try out this Robotron update. I only average 140,000 on the game, so I'll be curious to see if this makes a difference.

[danny_galaga]

With Paige on this one. I am happy enough with v78. Games are good enough for me. Anyone who wants a compact budget machine will probably be happy enough with an old version too. If you're not, obviously you can safely ignore this thread...

[ark_ader]

With Paige on this one. I am happy enough with v78. Games are good enough for me. Anyone who wants a compact budget machine will probably be happy enough with an old version too. If you're not, obviously you can safely ignore this thread...

I had a Mame4All variant on my Artemis and it was a .34 build and it ran quite zippy for a 200mhz arm. 

The Raspi Model A will be a game changer, especially next year when there will be an abundance of them.

 

[Howard_Casto]

My main problem with running a lower version of mame is the lack of extended features.  I think outputs were added around version .110 so that idea I had about a drop-in replacement for pcbs with output isn't going to work easily.  Take that, the fact that it's hdmi out, and the apparent limitations of a arm processor into consideration and basically what you've got is a cheap tablet, which can already run mame but has the added benefit of a touchscreen.

The compact size is definately impressive, but as we are getting more info in regards to a potential price hike, even more delays and the limits of what you can do with the thing easily... I'm less and less excited.

[ark_ader]

My main problem with running a lower version of mame is the lack of extended features.  I think outputs were added around version .110 so that idea I had about a drop-in replacement for pcbs with output isn't going to work easily.  Take that, the fact that it's hdmi out, and the apparent limitations of a arm processor into consideration and basically what you've got is a cheap tablet, which can already run mame but has the added benefit of a touchscreen.

The compact size is definately impressive, but as we are getting more info in regards to a potential price hike, even more delays and the limits of what you can do with the thing easily... I'm less and less excited.

Well my expectation of the Raspi is the chance to write my thesis on green computing: The five volt cloud. 

I'm sure that little fellow will run a few instances of Tiny Core inside Qemu.  Well at least 10 with Woof.

Mame will have to take a back seat I am afraid. 

[danny_galaga]

My main problem with running a lower version of mame is the lack of extended features.  I think outputs were added around version .110 so that idea I had about a drop-in replacement for pcbs with output isn't going to work easily.  Take that, the fact that it's hdmi out, and the apparent limitations of a arm processor into consideration and basically what you've got is a cheap tablet, which can already run mame but has the added benefit of a touchscreen.

The compact size is definately impressive, but as we are getting more info in regards to a potential price hike, even more delays and the limits of what you can do with the thing easily... I'm less and less excited.

Well my expectation of the Raspi is the chance to write my thesis on green computing: The five volt cloud. 

I'm sure that little fellow will run a few instances of Tiny Core inside Qemu.  Well at least 10 with Woof.

It's almost like you're trying to talk english or summink

[Gray_Area]

I don't think I've played a real machine since the 80s, but DK plays very differently, and in ways more interestingly, in current MAME. A lot of games do. Anyone will notice. You don't need a dual core to play these games (though you might need a newer video card if using HLSL), but even low P4s aren't going to cut it.

[kahlid74]

Mine ships on April 3rd, so I expect to have a working machine a few days after that.  I've seen a boat load of Linux distro's being released for it so I'm ready to go with that.  The big Linux distro that want's nothing to do with Raspberry Pi is Ubuntu because the arm processor is a generation behind what they want to support.  Fedora however is fully supporting it to I'll probably grab that and test it first before I move to Scientific Linux or Zorin/Tiny Core and go with super small Linux flavors.

I'd love to get Arch Linux working on it but Arch is not a fan of Arm procs, so we'll see.

[Generic Eric]

I have high hopes for this.  "Pi in the sky" hopes you could say.  It lowers the cost of entry for a mame machine considerably.  It will also help me afford a horizontal and vertical machine.

[Howard_Casto]

I have high hopes for this.  "Pi in the sky" hopes you could say.  It lowers the cost of entry for a mame machine considerably.  It will also help me afford a horizontal and vertical machine.

Really?  Because I can get a machine with those specs for around 50-70 bucks. Dealnews has a refurbished hp/dell p4 every couple months for around 75-80 bucks.  It's slightly cheaper at best.

[Generic Eric]

I have high hopes for this.  "Pi in the sky" hopes you could say.  It lowers the cost of entry for a mame machine considerably.  It will also help me afford a horizontal and vertical machine.

Really?  Because I can get a machine with those specs for around 50-70 bucks. Dealnews has a refurbished hp/dell p4 every couple months for around 75-80 bucks.  It's slightly cheaper at best.

Hmm...perhaps my comment wasn't complete.  It seems less of a hassle, less components to worry about anyway. 

[Howard_Casto]

I'm still unsure of that as well. 


We don't have a build of linux on it yet, much less one specifically for mame that can be installed and setup easily. 

At least until it gets in people's hands and they live for it for a while I think we are trading one set of problems for another. 


It's smaller and uses less power... atm at least, those are it's only benefits.

[kahlid74]

I'm still unsure of that as well. 


We don't have a build of linux on it yet, much less one specifically for mame that can be installed and setup easily. 

At least until it gets in people's hands and they live for it for a while I think we are trading one set of problems for another. 


It's smaller and uses less power... atm at least, those are it's only benefits.

Not true.  Fedora has released their Linux distro for it - http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/805

Also, it uses the last generation of arm which is supported in just about every Linux distro except Ubuntu who decided they no longer wanted to support it.

Also, your 50-75 dollar computers use significantly more power and produces more heat/noise.  The key about the Raspberry Pi is form factor, power and heat.  This is an age old comparison you can't do because they aren't in the same category.  It's like comparing a Laptop to a desktop.  It's foolish because they have different use cases.

[Howard_Casto]

I'm still unsure of that as well. 


We don't have a build of linux on it yet, much less one specifically for mame that can be installed and setup easily. 

At least until it gets in people's hands and they live for it for a while I think we are trading one set of problems for another. 


It's smaller and uses less power... atm at least, those are it's only benefits.

Not true.  Fedora has released their Linux distro for it - http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/805

Also, it uses the last generation of arm which is supported in just about every Linux distro except Ubuntu who decided they no longer wanted to support it.

Also, your 50-75 dollar computers use significantly more power and produces more heat/noise.  The key about the Raspberry Pi is form factor, power and heat.  This is an age old comparison you can't do because they aren't in the same category.  It's like comparing a Laptop to a desktop.  It's foolish because they have different use cases.

Have you seen somebody running mame on it?  Because if you haven't my point still stands.  If you'll notice I said that we don't have a build of linux ON it yet, not that there aren't ones that support it.  In other words how well the operating systems work with the device hasn't been proven yet. 

I'm pretty sure I just said that it's only benefits is that it's smaller and uses less power..... I'm not sure why you are repeating that to me like I don't understand that. 

It isn't foolish to compare a laptop to a desktop at all.  A laptop is identical in every category except one, form factor, so they are easily comparable. If you are on the go you use a laptop.... if you are too cheap to have both a desktop and laptop and need a laptop then you use a laptop.... otherwise, you should get a desktop.

My problem with the Pi atm is that it's so similar to a arm-based tablet.. in fact you should be able to run the same stuff on it if you switch out the OS.  The only difference is tablets have becoem an established platform, you get more hardware for your money and they offer more in terms of user-friendly apps.  The thing is, if this thing would have been released 5 years ago like it was supposed to, it would have been down right amazing.  The march of progress has passed it by since it's creation..... I'm not sure about it's usefulness anymore. 

We are just going to have to wait and see.

[kahlid74]

Have you seen somebody running mame on it?  Because if you haven't my point still stands.  If you'll notice I said that we don't have a build of linux ON it yet, not that there aren't ones that support it.  In other words how well the operating systems work with the device hasn't been proven yet. 

I'm pretty sure I just said that it's only benefits is that it's smaller and uses less power..... I'm not sure why you are repeating that to me like I don't understand that. 

It isn't foolish to compare a laptop to a desktop at all.  A laptop is identical in every category except one, form factor, so they are easily comparable. If you are on the go you use a laptop.... if you are too cheap to have both a desktop and laptop and need a laptop then you use a laptop.... otherwise, you should get a desktop.

My problem with the Pi atm is that it's so similar to a arm-based tablet.. in fact you should be able to run the same stuff on it if you switch out the OS.  The only difference is tablets have becoem an established platform, you get more hardware for your money and they offer more in terms of user-friendly apps.  The thing is, if this thing would have been released 5 years ago like it was supposed to, it would have been down right amazing.  The march of progress has passed it by since it's creation..... I'm not sure about it's usefulness anymore. 

We are just going to have to wait and see.

Fedora Remix was built ON a Raspberry Pi by Fedora Developers, so I'll assume when they say it runs well, it runs well.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your original statement was two fold: no working Linux distro on it and no working MAME on it.  The first part is not true, the second part is still true.  If this wasn't your original statement then my bad.

Even if Laptops and Desktops are identical, they have different use cases, just like you said.  So if my point is use cased based, then you can't compare them.  If I am on the go, a desktop is no longer an option.  If I am building a PC and need this size or this power, then a tablet is no longer a comparable option.  If use case is not required then yes, compare all you want.

I get what you're saying, I do.  My feeling is that this isn't behind the curve, and is still 100% applicable.  I can now take a Raspberry Pi coupled with an Arduino and basically build a fully functional PLC for 60 dollars whose form factor is in most cases smaller than a real PLC.  To me that's huge.  Raw computing power is behind the curve sure, but applicable uses are still super far and wide.

[kahlid74]

35 for the Raspberry PI
5 for shipping
?? for tax.  They say it depends on local state tax so we'll see how Wisconsin will take my money again.

[kahlid74]

Fedora Remix was built ON a Raspberry Pi by Fedora Developers, so I'll assume when they say it runs well, it runs well.

So here's a great article talking about the currently used and working Linux Distro's on Raspbrry Pi.  I'll eat my own words as the Fedora port seems to be sluggish and not so good but the Debian and Archlinux ones are rocking.

http://www.designspark.com/content/raspberry-pi-review

Also, it looks like there is an ARM MAME Beta in existence.  No idea how well it works though - http://caesar.logiqx.com/php/emulator.php?id=armmame

[kahlid74]

No need to pay sales tax.

Where exactly did you order it from?  I'm not doubting you, I'm trying to put in an order myself. 

Element 14 - http://downloads.element14.com/raspberryPi2.html?isRedirect=true

I signed up after they first ran out of them.  I got emailed that they got them in again or were taking backorders again so I logged in about an hour after that email and was able to purchase one.

[knave]

.... if you are too cheap to have both a desktop and laptop and need a laptop then you use a laptop.... otherwise, you should get a desktop.

Howard, that's an overly simplistic generalization. The truth is that most people can get by with one or the other. Most of the time I don't need the portability of my laptop. but since buying it I have pretty much stopped using my desktops (yes plural). Before buying the laptop I didn't know that I would enjoy sitting on the couch with the PC, or in bed, or going to the coffee shop. But I do now. Desktops are great but in addition to usage need there is preference.

Also, Rasberry Pi is a beginning. If it takes off it opens the door for a similar form factor with better and better specs. I imagine those dual core 1ghz chips that are in all the tablets now will be a good affordable candidate in the future...who knows, but they have to start somewhere.

[Gray_Area]

Really?  Because I can get a machine with those specs for around 50-70 bucks. Dealnews has a refurbished hp/dell p4 every couple months for around 75-80 bucks.  It's slightly cheaper at best.

I find these locally for fifty bucks ($50) or less. Just picked up one the other day without a SATA drive (as I had some to put in it) for $25.

[Samstag]

Really?  Because I can get a machine with those specs for around 50-70 bucks. Dealnews has a refurbished hp/dell p4 every couple months for around 75-80 bucks.  It's slightly cheaper at best.

I find these locally for fifty bucks ($50) or less. Just picked up one the other day without a SATA drive (as I had some to put in it) for $25.

A $50 PC will cost another $50 per year in electricity with moderate use (5-6 hours per day).  You can run a Pi 24/7 for around $3 per year.

[Howard_Casto]

Really?  Because I can get a machine with those specs for around 50-70 bucks. Dealnews has a refurbished hp/dell p4 every couple months for around 75-80 bucks.  It's slightly cheaper at best.

I find these locally for fifty bucks ($50) or less. Just picked up one the other day without a SATA drive (as I had some to put in it) for $25.

A $50 PC will cost another $50 per year in electricity with moderate use (5-6 hours per day).  You can run a Pi 24/7 for around $3 per year.

If you are playing your mame cab 5-6 hours a day every day then you have a problem.  Besides, a mame cab is going to need a power supply for the coin lights, marquee lights, potentially a powered usb hub for a keyboard encoder and the monitor.  The pc is only a fraction of the energy costs of running a cab.  Let's not grasp at straws shall we?

Regardless, pcs don't actually take up that much power, their accessories do.  A 300 watt power supply can power up to 300 watts of stuff, it doesn't always draw that much.  Remove the harddrives in favor of a usb/sd stick, unplug any optical drives and don't use a hw/accelerated video card and you'll find that a pc doesn't draw that much more power than the pi.  Of course remove all of that stuff and your speedy p4 will have the same crappy performance as well.  Performance requires power consumption unfortunately.


I think people are getting a little defensive over this device.  When it was first announced I was super excited, but that was several years ago.  Now you can buy a tablet with the exact same specs minus the i/o pins (which admittedly are cool) and with the added benefit of having a nice touchscreen.  The price of tablets are coming down dramatically as well.  You can get one with similar specs for under 100 bucks now. 

So until some really well written software comes out for it and people get to play with it a little I just don't see it as worth the purchase.  I did when I initially heard that they had finally went on sale, but then I went back and looked at the specs...  eh, I dunno, it might be great for highly specalized projects, but I don't think it's going to be very useful for mame.  I mean I couldn't even see it as useful for a "dumb" internet terminal.  Even the net has gone so hi-tech what with advanced scripting, flash and ect that the computer running it needs to be fairly beefy to get the full experience of many websites.

There are certainly applications for it though.  It seems a perfect fit as a pc integrated into a cnc machine for example, due to it's solid state nature and the fact that it's so tiny.

[ark_ader]

I'm thinking it would be great for an internet relay station, for those with rural broadband issues.



Something like this but smaller.

[Howard_Casto]

It would be good for robots as well with all the i/o pins. 

Maybe I'll finally get around to building that fully working K-9. 

[Samstag]

Compiling xmame .106 on the Rasberry Pi

Apparently you can give the board a virtual test drive while you wait for the real thing to arrive.

[Howard_Casto]

So you are telling me that I can try my hand at development for the PI without having to buy one?

Brilliant!

When I'm bored I'll look into this and see if I can modify mame a little to hook the output system directly to the PI pins.  Perhaps the input system as well.  It would be pretty cool to just hook a jamma slot to those pins and be good to go.

This line from that blog bothers me a little though:  "on my laptop this takes about 6hrs to compile"  Uggh man, I don't have that kind of time.

[Samstag]

It's because he's compiling on the virtual Pi, which doesn't make much sense.  There's a PC-based development toolchain that would compile it much faster.

[kahlid74]

It's entirely possible that developer may not realize that or he may want as close to the source as possible whereby compiling on the Virtual Pi gives him the idea of 100% compatibility.

At the end of the day, until we get our hands on these little guys anything may or may not be possible with them.  Tentative date of mid April for mine.  F yes.

[Howard_Casto]

It's entirely possible that developer may not realize that or he may want as close to the source as possible whereby compiling on the Virtual Pi gives him the idea of 100% compatibility.

Well no, that's still kind of crazy.  Let's say I'm writing an app for my vizo tv... I don't compile it on my tv, because it's a cruddy tv, I compile it on a pc poweful enough to compile.

[Justin Z]

So you couldn't just start the compile as you're heading to bed and let it run overnight?

[Grasshopper]

I've been disappointed by the recent price hike, but overall I'm still pretty excited about this product. It has the potential to be the type of open platform that I'd hoped Android based devices would be when they first appeared a few years ago. Unfortunately, so far Android has been a huge disappointment for me. Not the actual interface I hasten to add (which is just as slick as iOS IMHO) but the way in which the OS is being delivered to consumers. Whether by accident or design, Google and the Android device manufacturers have so far managed to neutralise most the the benefits that are supposed to come from using open source software. Android just isn't open enough for my taste. Most of the manufacturers seem to be riding roughshod over the spirit, and in some cases, the actual letter of the GPL, and getting away with it. There is a disturbing tendency for them to release source code either very late when the version of Android is already obsolete, or not at all.

There is also a lot of tivoisation going on, which is even more obnoxious. Admittedly, it's incredibly easy to root/jailbreak most Android devices, but the point is you shouldn't have to. I'm tired of having to fight manufacturers to gain full control of devices that I've spent my hard earned cash on.  And even when the device has been rooted you face the potential problem of unannounced/undocumented changes to the hardware which can cause the device to be bricked if you flash the wrong firmware version on to it.

I think people are getting a little defensive over this device.  When it was first announced I was super excited, but that was several years ago.  Now you can buy a tablet with the exact same specs minus the i/o pins (which admittedly are cool) and with the added benefit of having a nice touchscreen.  The price of tablets are coming down dramatically as well.  You can get one with similar specs for under 100 bucks now. 

If you sought out the very cheapest no name brand, shipped directly from China, tablet you could find, and factor in the cost of the battery and touchscreen then you  *might* end up with a product that's slightly better value for money than the Raspberry Pi, but it would be a stretch. However, to focus solely on price is to miss the point. What really makes the Raspberry Pi unique is the philosophy that underpins it. It's been deliberately designed to be easily and safely hackable. Because the entire OS is stored on a standard removable SD card it will be impossible to brick. If something goes wrong then you'll just need to copy a new disk image onto the card and you'll be good to go.

If it takes off in schools, which was the original intention, then it has the potential to be a game changer. And god knows we need a game change. There has been a disturbing tendency in recent years for manufacturers to attempt to lock down their computing devices, and it's done mostly for self-serving anti-competitive reasons. If Microsoft gets its way, then even desktop PCs will one day only be able to run digitally signed operating systems chosen by the manufacturer (i.e. Windows).

[SavannahLion]

If it takes off in schools, which was the original intention, then it has the potential to be a game changer. And god knows we need a game change. There has been a disturbing tendency in recent years for manufacturers to attempt to lock down their computing devices, and it's done mostly for self-serving anti-competitive reasons. If Microsoft gets its way, then even desktop PCs will one day only be able to run digitally signed operating systems chosen by the manufacturer (i.e. Windows).

Wasn't that the intent of OLPC?

[Howard_Casto]

Sounds like rampant speculation Grasshopper.  I heard the same end of the world speech in regards to Microsoft all the way in 1998.... needless to say you can still install any OS you want on a computer, but why would you want to?  For desktop use windows is the best or at the very least the most widely supported.

I agree about android, but tablet manufacturers are in a tight space.  You've got china, who actually manufactuers these things, ready to churn out a knock-off the next day.  The only thing preventing them from doing that is the source code.  It's one of the reasons linux never really caught on at the consumer level actually....  why invest time and money adding stuff to the OS when your competator has full access to your source and they can ripoff your features and sell their product at a lower price?

But all that stuff is debatable, your point is a little off though.  At the beginning you say that it isn't about the money and then close by saying that it is about the school programs.  Trust me, if it's about the school programs then it IS about the money.  The reason I brought up tablets as an example is because the pi SEEMS cheaper but it really isn't.  Now maybe for a robotics class it might be useful but for everything else, not entirely practical.

Ok you've got your 35 dollar ...err scratch that 65 dollar PI
It's going to need:

case  = 5.00
Keyboard = 10.00
Mouse = 8.00
SD card = 20.00
Monitor = 200.00

For a grand total of around 308 bucks... probably more if you factor in shipping costs and the like.

Now you might say "But isn't a traditional pc going to need these things as well?"  Yes, that's certainly true.  The problem is at 300 bucks we are in the ball park of the price of a cheap pc bundle, which would include all of those accessories.  Factor that in with the fact that schools can generally arrange a big discount with pc manufacturers and they can buy a full-fledged pc, which has greater functionality for the same price.  Now it won't be a top of the line pc like we are used to, but it would certainly be better than the Pi's specs. 

Now for rich shcools, that have the extra resources I can see this thing being used, but it's intended purpose of putting pcs in the hands of impoverished children isn't going to happen.  They aren't going to be able to justify what they get for the money.

As SL said, the OLPC is a MUCH BETTER solution to that.  The reason it's obvious... it's a full-fledged pc with all the needed accessories. Unfortunately even it's price is around 220 bucks, which is too expensive for what you get.

[Grasshopper]

Sounds like rampant speculation Grasshopper.  I heard the same end of the world speech in regards to Microsoft all the way in 1998.... needless to say you can still install any OS you want on a computer, but why would you want to?  For desktop use windows is the best or at the very least the most widely supported.

In your opinion.

If you do a bit of googling you'll find out that my comments on digital signing are a bit more than mere "rampant speculation" (link).

[Grasshopper]

Ok you've got your 35 dollar ...err scratch that 65 dollar PI
It's going to need:

case  = 5.00
Keyboard = 10.00
Mouse = 8.00
SD card = 20.00
Monitor = 200.00

For a grand total of around 308 bucks... probably more if you factor in shipping costs and the like.

Now you might say "But isn't a traditional pc going to need these things as well?"  Yes, that's certainly true.  The problem is at 300 bucks we are in the ball park of the price of a cheap pc bundle, which would include all of those accessories.  Factor that in with the fact that schools can generally arrange a big discount with pc manufacturers and they can buy a full-fledged pc, which has greater functionality for the same price.  Now it won't be a top of the line pc like we are used to, but it would certainly be better than the Pi's specs. 

Now for rich shcools, that have the extra resources I can see this thing being used, but it's intended purpose of putting pcs in the hands of impoverished children isn't going to happen.  They aren't going to be able to justify what they get for the money.

As SL said, the OLPC is a MUCH BETTER solution to that.  The reason it's obvious... it's a full-fledged pc with all the needed accessories. Unfortunately even it's price is around 220 bucks, which is too expensive for what you get.

Except that most of the people who buy a Raspberry Pi will already own a keyboard, mouse, and monitor (or TV).

Howard, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but from your comments I get the impression you've done very little research into what the Raspberry Pi is all about. It's not intended to perform the same function as the OLPC. Not even close. You're comparing apples and oranges. The OLPC was designed to be a general purpose computer that could be used by kids in the third world who couldn't afford to buy a conventional laptop or desktop PC.

By way of contrast, the Raspberry Pi has been designed primarily as a teaching aid to help kids in the UK to learn how to program. It's a very UK-centric project, and it's definitely not intended to replace a conventional desktop PC or laptop. Schools in the UK already have plenty of those, and most kids in the UK already own at least one computer of their own. The trouble is that it's no longer fashionable to teach kids how to program or understand how computers work on anything other than a superficial level. In IT classes kids are mostly just taught how to use Word, Excel, and a Web Browser. They're certainly useful skills but I'm sure you'd agree that there's far more to computing than that.

The Raspberry Pi is an attempt to introduce today's kids to the type of relatively low level, close to the hardware, programming that was an absolute necessity 30 years ago, but which is now becoming something of a dying art.  Now I realise that you can learn to code on any computer and in any language. But if you're using a modern language and OS, then you're sitting on top of multiple layers of hugely complex libraries, drivers etc. and it's just not the same. You're not going to get the same sense of pride and ownership that you get when you coax a relatively simple computer into life by writing code very close to its hardware.

Who knows. Maybe it won't succeed. Maybe kids today just won't get it, as you clearly don't. Maybe they'll just shrug their shoulders and continue tweeting inane nonsense into their iPhones. But I'm cautiously optimistic that it will inspire at least some of them to explore the rich world of computing that exists beyond the Microsoft and Apple hegemony.

[ark_ader]

It's a very UK-centric project, and it's definitely not intended to replace a conventional desktop PC or laptop. Schools in the UK already have plenty of those, and most kids in the UK already own at least one computer of their own.

Actually Howard, Grasshopper is right on the money with that one.  Raspi is designed for the UK economy, especially when the model A starts shipping.  The majority of the schools here in the UK have refurbished or recycle computers (heck my college has 10 year old PCs and we are going to pay them £9K a year?) and IT is not really taught in the UK schools.  It is more Microsoft Office based and it is hurting the economy as we have a shortage of skilled workers.  The migrant workers schooled in the EU are in short supply.

This device and its sister will revolutionize the academic institutions, and allow children of all ages and backgrounds the ability to learn programming.  I would have preferred that Microsoft just donated Xbox 360s to the schools for the XNA development (this is currently available and successful) as the kids would be more enthused to code for their favorite console (yea), as the PS3 turned off Linux capability (boo).

Besides the UK economy is doing pretty good right now, and there is cash available for this $25 solution, my college is keen on getting these Pi's out to the students.  The $50 Indian Tablet, even though has an upgraded core pales in comparison.   The UK was the leader of software development, and we have more consoles, and buy more games so it seems like an excellent idea to regain the title . 

[Howard_Casto]

I know it's intended implementation but I guess I didn't word that too well. Sorry about that.  It's meant to be a cheap development platform for financially challenged schools yes?.... my statement still stands.
*edit*
Maybe even that is worded too badly..... a "financially challenged" school translates to virtually any school at has budget concerns... aka virtually all of them. 

You are thinking like you are at home.  Yeah we can chuck out a spare monitor kbd and mouse and we probably have a spare monitor lying around, but you just can't do that in a computer lab.  You aren't going to have these things just lying around because you are in a school.... they are going to be used.  If you are suggesting that all 30+ students reach around to the back of a pc, unhook their equiptment to use with the pi and then hook it back up properly when done... well good luck with that.    And by requiring all of those add-ons for it to work you've essentially tethered it to the school when I thought the whole point was that kids could take it home and work on their programming assignments as well.  That's why I meantioned the OLPC... at least it's a complete package.

When a school decides to setup a lab unless it's a very well off school, money is the bottom line, my point is for what you are paying for a typical pi workstation you could setup a pc workstation, which is far more flexible and give you can still do low-level programming on a pc.  I do get the intent, but I don't think the problem in regards to lack of low-level programming is a hardware one, it's a teaching one.  The classes simply need to be offered.

Here's the delimma.  Let's say you are a school and you want to teach such a course.  Does it make more sense to hook all that equipment to a cheap, single purpose pcb or to spend roughly the same amount on a cheap pc bundle, which could be used for other computer classes and/or use existing computer labs and just supply the kids with a cheap avr like a teensy or arduino?

[Howard_Casto]

   The UK was the leader of software development, and we have more consoles, and buy more games so it seems like an excellent idea to regain the title . 

Any relevant point you had was negated by that statement.  I don't mean to pick on you but I would like to know what world you live in where you think that the UK buys more games than the US, or Japan, or heck even South America.  You guys are one step away from being Australia in terms of game sales.  I would also like to know how you think that the UK is a leader in software development when Google, IBM, NOA and Microsoft are based in the US and Sony, Nintendo and NEC and basically everybody else are based in Japan.  The only big, influential UK developer I can think of is Rare, and you know how that turned out.  I actually think M$ bought Rare just to keep them from making games for Nintendo... all they seem to work on now are the cruddy xbox live avatars.

The UK has had plenty of great development studios over the years, but they have mostly been small, independant affairs.  I can't think of any time in the history of computing when the UK was considered to be a leader in software development.  At many points they were very competative, but leaders... not particularly.

Now if you had said France.... yeah UbiSoft is a powerhouse to be sure, but even then their largest branch is in Canada... you know, because all the consumers and programmers are in North America. 


Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight.. sorry, but when I see something like that all the other words you've typed fade into the background.

I'm wondering how this topic got so far of the rails actually.  I keep trying to steer the conversation back to what we are going to do with the Pi and every couple of days somebody wanders in.. ignores my posts and the other on-topic ones and starts drawing the conversation back to it's relevancy... of course I'm going to respond if I don't agree with it, but I think the debate is getting rather pointless.  I sorry I voiced my opinion and it differed from the peanut gallery, I didn't expect everybody and their borther to come out of the woodwork and try to make some point against mine.  But then again, this is the internet, I should have known better.   If people want to talk about potential usage for the device I'm here, otherwise I'm done with this thread.

The above paragraph is going to come out sounding angry..... I'm not at all, I wish I could articulate my feelings a little better.  I'm just a little frustrated how any conversation degrades away from relevancy anymore.  And yes I realize that the above statment about uk developers is exactly the sort of thing that I'm complaining about, so maybe it can't be helped.

[Blanka]

Well, the UK did create the best looking home computer ever: the ZX spectrum. Well, a ZX is a little bad to use in 2012 for general computing tasks. Know what? Mod in another motherboard. What does fit in this sexy small machine? Not much. WAIT... HEY... A RASPBERRY PI FITS IN!. Let the ZX live forever with PI brains and a modern OS. WOOHOO! 

[ark_ader]

   The UK was the leader of software development, and we have more consoles, and buy more games so it seems like an excellent idea to regain the title . 

Any relevant point you had was negated by that statement.  I don't mean to pick on you but I would like to know what world you live in where you think that the UK buys more games than the US, or Japan, or heck even South America.  You guys are one step away from being Australia in terms of game sales.  I would also like to know how you think that the UK is a leader in software development when Google, IBM, NOA and Microsoft are based in the US and Sony, Nintendo and NEC and basically everybody else are based in Japan.  The only big, influential UK developer I can think of is Rare, and you know how that turned out.  I actually think M$ bought Rare just to keep them from making games for Nintendo... all they seem to work on now are the cruddy Xbox live avatars.

The UK has had plenty of great development studios over the years, but they have mostly been small, independent affairs.  I can't think of any time in the history of computing when the UK was considered to be a leader in software development.  At many points they were very competitive, but leaders... not particularly.

Now if you had said France.... yeah UbiSoft is a powerhouse to be sure, but even then their largest branch is in Canada... you know, because all the consumers and programmers are in North America. 


Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight.. sorry, but when I see something like that all the other words you've typed fade into the background.

I'm wondering how this topic got so far of the rails actually.  I keep trying to steer the conversation back to what we are going to do with the Pi and every couple of days somebody wanders in.. ignores my posts and the other on-topic ones and starts drawing the conversation back to it's relevancy... of course I'm going to respond if I don't agree with it, but I think the debate is getting rather pointless.  I sorry I voiced my opinion and it differed from the peanut gallery, I didn't expect everybody and their brother to come out of the woodwork and try to make some point against mine.  But then again, this is the internet, I should have known better.   If people want to talk about potential usage for the device I'm here, otherwise I'm done with this thread.

The above paragraph is going to come out sounding angry..... I'm not at all, I wish I could articulate my feelings a little better.  I'm just a little frustrated how any conversation degrades away from relevancy anymore.  And yes I realize that the above statement about UK developers is exactly the sort of thing that I'm complaining about, so maybe it can't be helped.

Pick away.  Heck I pick on you enough.    I'll do a Shmokes and fix your spelling, While I retort.

You are referring to today's gaming market.  I was referring to yesterdays gaming market.  We do have some strides (when I say we I am half British so..) like this and we do have a large service market.  Game wise, like I typed earlier, is lacking.  When we have the up and coming (not this one or maybe not even the next) generation that have the skills, then we will be the gaming mecca as it once was.  Twenty years ago I worked at software ect, right after I left the UK and the gaming market was dominated by UK gaming houses.  The software on the shelves were mainly from the UK, especially the Amiga and the CBM 64.  Apple was American, but the Atari XE had a good run in the UK, as did the Atari ST.  It is all inside my xbox1 now and like that comment moot.

You can look at today and say anything you want, but do not underestimate the UK when it comes to programming games, the companies might be foreign, but most of the coders are from the UK.  We do buy more games and are quite the leaders when it comes to gaming decisions and market trends.  Japan is flash in the pan compared to our economy, and maybe the US one too. 

I was at a Games Stop in Vegas in July last year and I had a chat with the Manager and he said the market was dead (Vegas is dead anyway) but I had the same conversation with the Reno Games Stop and they agreed too.  Kids are in there but the parents are not buying.  I bought some Xbox stuff (why I don't know) pretty cheap.

Our game prices are coming down and we are still buying.  With 10% of the 16-24 year old gamers unemployed, lots of time to keep the hobby alive.  We just need to get them the Pi so they can learn and get a job.

We like our games as we do the Pi.   

If you are suggesting that all 30+ students reach around to the back of a pc, unhook their equiptment to use with the pi and then hook it back up properly when done... well good luck with that.

Good luck with what?  With the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- we have at college we have to reach around the back to fix the loose cables just to work the machines.  I am not kidding.  It really is a joke, and the best laugh is that we are saving the planet using 300W PSUs when we can get Pi setups that can be powered with less than 10% of that.  I remember when I was sitting my computer studies O level back in the day and we had to share a Timex Sinclair (ZX80) to code on.  You like membrane Howard?  Cut your teeth on the Atari 400 did you?  I can see Pi Docks being sold to schools and colleges.  HDMI Monitors with USB ports.

I'm writing my thesis for my Honors next year "5 volt cloud", and my little Pi will be part of the study.  I'm hoping my college sees the light and orders 20,000 $25 Model A and gives them away free to all the students (no kidding well you should get something for your £9K a year fee)  At least the woodwork and plastics department will see some action!

[Grasshopper]

Well, the UK did create the best looking home computer ever: the ZX spectrum. Well, a ZX is a little bad to use in 2012 for general computing tasks. Know what? Mod in another motherboard. What does fit in this sexy small machine? Not much. WAIT... HEY... A RASPBERRY PI FITS IN!. Let the ZX live forever with PI brains and a modern OS. WOOHOO! 

Nice idea, but I'm guessing that a ZX Spectrum case would be a little too small for a Raspberry Pi.

However, what would be really cool would be to fit a Raspberry Pi into an old BBC Micro, or Acorn Atom case, as those wonderful machines are the real spiritual predecessors to the Raspberry Pi.

Actually, on second thoughts, I don't think I could bring myself to butcher a real BBC Micro, or Acorn Atom. But if someone started manufacturing a replica case that looked like one of those computers, I'd bite their hands off to get hold of one.

[ark_ader]

Well, the UK did create the best looking home computer ever: the ZX spectrum. Well, a ZX is a little bad to use in 2012 for general computing tasks. Know what? Mod in another motherboard. What does fit in this sexy small machine? Not much. WAIT... HEY... A RASPBERRY PI FITS IN!. Let the ZX live forever with PI brains and a modern OS. WOOHOO! 

Nice idea, but I'm guessing that a ZX Spectrum case would be a little too small for a Raspberry Pi.

However, what would be really cool would be to fit a Raspberry Pi into an old BBC Micro, or Acorn Atom case, as those wonderful machines are the real spiritual predecessors to the Raspberry Pi.

Actually, on second thoughts, I don't think I could bring myself to butcher a real BBC Micro, or Acorn Atom. But if someone started manufacturing a replica case that looked like one of those computers, I'd bite their hands off to get hold of one.

Considering how much the BBC, Atom, and Electron goes on ebay I would agree. 

Replica cases is a great idea for a niche market. 

Since the Pi will be the death knell for low powered ITX boards.

[knave]

Since the Pi will be the death knell for low powered ITX boards.

You really think so?

...I'm not so sure. I am excited about the PI but to me it will make a great media device, or Mame unit. but If I really wanted a small computer I would still rather have a ITX based unit with a full array of ports possibly even a slot for a real HD.

[Blanka]

A Pi too big to fit in a Spectrum? Hahaha, do you know how small it actually is? The size of a credit card. You can make a quad-core Pi server in a ZX spectrum.

[ark_ader]

Since the Pi will be the death knell for low powered ITX boards.

You really think so?

...I'm not so sure. I am excited about the PI but to me it will make a great media device, or Mame unit. but If I really wanted a small computer I would still rather have a ITX based unit with a full array of ports possibly even a slot for a real HD.

Yes I do.  The Raspi does not have any actual audio out (to cut costs), so it will be difficult being a media player without it looking like a USB porcupine, secondly drivers for audio devices will be fun.    HDMI does not provide any audio. 

All my ITX PCs are darn slow.  Great for server applications but completely crap for the basic office applications, especially the Epia (which I am referring to not Intel Hybrids) so the Raspi will have gained some ground there considering it will be able to decode HD.  Try that on an Epia board.  Try to run XBMC on a Epia 5000 or 800.  Heck the old Xbox1 does a better job.

Price point, wise and the ability to pretty much run out of the box headless, and that will be a boon to robot fanciers and the basic programming concepts curriculum, as you can remote in using a host PC, for which this device is geared towards.

Then we have to look at the Power supply issues.  No more power brick PSU or dodgy DC to DC converters.  Just 5V.  And you can easily get that from the sun. 

If college subsidized are we looking at a possible free computing scenario?

[kahlid74]

Got my update that they've been shipped to Element14.  Once Element14 gets them they'll be doing their own consistency checks and then once passed they'll send them my way.  So probably another 1-2 months before it's physically in my hands.