New Product: OMNI2™ Below Panel Switchable 4/8-way Joystick - GroovyGameGear

[RandyT]

Well on our J-Stik which has been around for many years we use nylon washers, springs between the screw heads and washers to apply pressure and a low-strength threadlock which allows adjustment. Would guess similar here.

You'd guess incorrectly. As I have stated several times, the stick is built differently.  No springs, no threadlock.  Just good engineering.  If I had to approach the situation the way you did yours, I simply would not have.  Not reliable enough for my tastes.

BTW, nice form, pimping your competing product in our announcement thread.   

That also puts a whole new meaning to following:

I have no desire to copy a competitors existing product, when doing so removes valuable and popular features from my own.

If you read my reply above, I believe it's called "vindication".

RandyT

[Nephasth]

...no threadlock.  Just good engineering. 

 

[RandyT]

...no threadlock.  Just good engineering. 

 

I'm starting to think you own stock in the Loctite™ corporation.  Glue isn't the end-all-be all of engineering priciples, but feel free to use as much as you like on your own items.  I don't mind .

[Nephasth]

Glue isn't the end-all-be all of engineering priciples, but feel free to use as much as you like on your own items.  I don't mind .

You're right about that one. But if you're using lock nuts on studs as "positive restrictor tension adjustments", there is the potential for problems. Especially, like mentioned earlier, if someone wanted to loosen the tension on the restrictor plate. Either the nut or the stud will loosen, and it will be whichever one has less resistance on it. Since the lock nut is "locked" onto the stud, and the stud isn't "locked" into the hole, more than likely the stud will loosen before the nut, which kind of defeats the purpose of your design once the stud is loose. That's just good engineering...

[RandyT]

You're right about that one. But if you're using lock nuts on studs as "positive restrictor tension adjustments", there is the potential for problems. Especially, like mentioned earlier, if someone wanted to loosen the tension on the restrictor plate. Either the nut or the stud will loosen, and it will be whichever one has less resistance on it. Since the lock nut is "locked" onto the stud, and the stud isn't "locked" into the hole, more than likely the stud will loosen before the nut, which kind of defeats the purpose of your design once the stud is loose. That's just good engineering...

But if the friction holding part A, substantially outweighs the force capable of being produced by part B, then there is no need to lock Part A with glue.  In fact, it's undesirable to do so, as it has other ramifications to the overall functionality. 

The biggest problem here is that you are making assumptions about a design, which you have not seen and do not know.  Thus, your conclusions about said design, are invalid.

[Nephasth]

What did you torque the studs to, Randy? Did you even use a torque wrench to measure the tightening force you put on the studs? And what's the torque on the lock nuts?

ETA: Substantial forces cannot be applied to threaded fasteners this small without them breaking.

[RandyT]

What did you torque the studs to, Randy? Did you even use a torque wrench to measure the tightening force you put on the studs? And what's the torque on the lock nuts?

1/4 turn before it breaks.  

(BTW, that was a joke, for those of you who might be "garage humor" impaired )

[Nephasth]

That's what I figured. You haven't even measured the forces you spoke of in your previous post, but yet you claim that it's a design feature...

[RandyT]

That's what I figured. You haven't even measured the forces you spoke of in your previous post, but yet you claim that it's a design feature...

Again, you have no idea what I did or did not do.  What I choose to divulge is just that.

For your own education, in hopes of stemming further "concerns", nylon insert nuts form a tight, frictional fit, restricting movement when it is subjected to vibration or other minor rotational forces.  The frictional coefficient of nylon and steel is miniscule (more than an order of magnitude smaller, in fact) compared to the frictional coefficient of metal against metal.

RandyT

[Nephasth]

The frictional coefficient of nylon and steel is miniscule (more than an order of magnitude smaller, in fact) compared to the frictional coefficient of metal against metal.

RandyT

True, but the actual metal to metal contact of the threads is much less than the surface contact of the nylon in the lock nut. This picture shows a cut away of a tightened fastener:



The nylon in a lock nut will fill the void completely, which creates more surface friction than just bare metal threads. The same goes for thread locker, it is not a glue. It is sticky, but it is actually an anaerobic compound (meaning it hardens in the absence of air). It basically just fills those gaps between the threads with a plastic like material, creating more surface friction, which requires more force to turn the fastener. I've been dealing with nuts and bolts for years, and have first hand experience with nylon lock nuts causing studs to back out of their holes, hence my "concern". You ignoring what I consider valid questions makes me wonder about the quality of your products. And when you finally address those concerns, you throw around jargan, but have no evidence or data to back up your claims.

[RandyT]

True, but the actual metal to metal contact of the threads is much less than the surface contact of the nylon in the lock nut. This picture shows a cut away of a tightened fastener:

If one of the metals is malleable, and it is, then your photo, which shows materials which are not, and very different thread pitch and type (and there are many), is inapplicable.

And again, there are other forces in this design, aside from the threads, which serve to lock things in place.  You are simply assuming, incorrectly, that there are not.

You ignoring what I consider valid questions makes me wonder about the quality of your products. And when you finally address those concerns, you throw around jargan, but have no evidence or data to back up your claims.

I'm ignoring your questions, because they are not relevant in the design.  The evidence is for sale on the GGG site.  As for quality, it speaks for itself.  You can question it if you want, but it never seems to be by actual consumers of our products.

[Nephasth]

If one of the metals is malleable, and it is, then your photo, which shows materials which are not...

How can you discern that from a black and white magnified photo? You can't. You're making false claims yet again.

Besides all metals are malleable, but have different degrees of malleability.

Also, the threads of the screws and holes of your sticks are machine threads, as are the ones in the photo. Thread pitch has nothing to do with thread contact, that's just how many threads are in a given distance. But thread pitch does determine the amount of force the fastener can withstand, a fastener with a higher thread pitch can handle more torque than one with fewer threads per inch. Threads (when the fastener is turned) create the force that holds the fasteners together. Enlighten me, what are these other forces? (you'll probably ignore that question as well)

[Nephasth]

There is about 33% of contact (friction), per thread.  That 33% equates to about 3.333x (more, actually, based on the true frictional coefficient of the materials) times the friction, per thread, over nylon.  Now, count the number of threads seated in the nylon, and the number where metal is against metal.  In the end, you wil still have several orders of magnitude more friction on the stud, than the nylon nut insert.

Where did you come up with the 33%? Even on the surface of the thread that makes contact with its mating thread, only a fraction of the surface makes actual contact, due to the threads not being perfectly smooth.

[RandyT]

How can you discern that from a black and white magnified photo? You can't. You're making false claims yet again.

Because there is no deformation.

Also, the threads of the screws and holes of your sticks are machine threads, as are the ones in the photo. Thread pitch has nothing to do with thread contact, that's just how many threads are in a given distance. But thread pitch does determine the amount of force the fastener can withstand, a fastener with a higher thread pitch can handle more torque than one with fewer threads per inch. Threads (when the fastener is turned) create the force that holds the fasteners together. Enlighten me, what are these other forces? (you'll probably ignore that question as well)

Ok, lets take a look at it anyway.  There is about 33% of contact (friction), per thread.  That 33% equates to about 3.333x (more, actually, based on the true frictional coefficient of the materials) times the friction, per thread, over nylon.  Now, count the number of threads seated in the nylon, and the number where metal is against metal.  In the end, you wil still have several orders of magnitude more friction on the stud, than the nylon nut insert.

It's simple math.

[Nephasth]

Because there is no deformation.

Again, all metals are malleable... and there is obvious deformation of the threads in the pic...

[RandyT]

Because there is no deformation.

Again, all metals are malleable... and there is obvious deformation of the threads in the pic...

Not enough to improve thread to thread contact.  Again, the math in this situation is not difficult, and no, I won't divulge the details that make the build of this stick better than previous attempts by others.  History has shown that our competitors will do that soon enough.

[Nephasth]

There is about 33% of contact (friction), per thread.  That 33% equates to about 3.333x (more, actually, based on the true frictional coefficient of the materials) times the friction, per thread, over nylon.  Now, count the number of threads seated in the nylon, and the number where metal is against metal.  In the end, you wil still have several orders of magnitude more friction on the stud, than the nylon nut insert.

Where did you come up with the 33%? Even on the surface of the thread that makes contact with its mating thread, only a fraction of the surface makes actual contact, due to the threads not being perfectly smooth.

And yet this question still goes unanswered, which brings into question the validity of your claims.

[Nephasth]

I won't divulge the details that make the build of this stick better than previous attempts by others.  History has shown that our competitors will do that soon enough.

Since you refuse to explain what sets this stick apart from "the competition's", you leave me no choice but to assume: You're selling a J-Stik with less hardware and a $5.95 3/4" long plastic handle.

[RandyT]

And yet this question still goes unanswered, which brings into question the validity of your claims.

I won't divulge the details that make the build of this stick better than previous attempts by others.  History has shown that our competitors will do that soon enough.

Since you refuse to explain what sets this stick apart from "the competition's", you leave me no choice but to assume: You're selling a J-Stik with a $5.95 3/4" long plastic handle.

This is a product announcement thread.  I've tried to offer some education as well, and hopefully it has helped others to understand the differences.  I guess you'll just have to remain "unconvinced". 

RandyT

[Donkey_Kong]

I think you guys broke something, it quit sending me notifications for new posts somewhere around #50.

[opt2not]

Nephasth, this is poor form my man. 
Randy provides a very good service, and he constantly produces new products for mame users and enthusiasts. Many of us have enjoyed his service support and wares. This is his product announcement thread man, it's one thing that other vendors are offering up alternatives to this product, and it's another to try to disprove the validity of it. He has indulged you far further than I would have -- he stands behind his products. I've ordered from him plenty of times, and from my own personal experience I have always been satisfied with his wares.

If you wanted to continue this, I would suggest creating a new topic elsewhere and leave his product announcement as such.

[Nephasth]

Nephasth, this is poor form my man. 

You're right, I got a little carried way. Just find it frustrating when questions I think are important (from a standpoint of me buying a product) get ignored multiple times. I like to know how ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- works before I buy. Apologies to everyone for the thread derailment. I got my answers (most of them) now.

[TopJimmyCooks]

I'm starting to think you own stock in the Loctite™ corporation.  Glue isn't the end-all-be all of engineering priciples, but feel free to use as much as you like on your own items.  I don't mind .

He doesn't own stock in Loctite.  However, he does indeed hold 400,000 shares of Molex, of which Loctite is a wholly owned subsidiary, so he's on the board of Loctite as well. 

[danny_galaga]

The frictional coefficient of nylon and steel is miniscule (more than an order of magnitude smaller, in fact) compared to the frictional coefficient of metal against metal.

RandyT

True, but the actual metal to metal contact of the threads is much less than the surface contact of the nylon in the lock nut. This picture shows a cut away of a tightened fastener:



The nylon in a lock nut will fill the void completely, which creates more surface friction than just bare metal threads. The same goes for thread locker, it is not a glue. It is sticky, but it is actually an anaerobic compound (meaning it hardens in the absence of air). It basically just fills those gaps between the threads with a plastic like material, creating more surface friction, which requires more force to turn the fastener. I've been dealing with nuts and bolts for years, and have first hand experience with nylon lock nuts causing studs to back out of their holes, hence my "concern". You ignoring what I consider valid questions makes me wonder about the quality of your products. And when you finally address those concerns, you throw around jargan, but have no evidence or data to back up your claims.

NephASS, WTF? Are you having difficulties at home or something? Why are you crapping so much on this? Like it, or don't like it. But maybe just shut up about it already...

[Red]

Will this fit easily into my X-Arcade as a replacement stick? 

Or will I need to make it fit by drilling/hacking?

[RandyT]

Will this fit easily into my X-Arcade as a replacement stick? 

Or will I need to make it fit by drilling/hacking?

These should fit right in, without hacking.  The only concern might be available depth.  You will need 2.25" clearance below the bottom surface of the upper panel.

[Red]

Will this fit easily into my X-Arcade as a replacement stick? 

Or will I need to make it fit by drilling/hacking?

These should fit right in, without hacking.  The only concern might be available depth.  You will need 2.25" clearance below the bottom surface of the upper panel.

Great!  Thanks.

[DaOld Man]

Looks good Randy, now when are you going to motorize these babies?

[mgb]

Randy, I plan on buying one of these soon. I think it be the easiest solution for my controller 2 which is used for player 2 on 8 ways and as the control for 4 way games.
I will say however that the price is a bit high for this stick but I guess $30 won't break me and I have not had any problems with the other parts I have purchased from you in the past.
A couple of questions:
 1) Is the shaft, the same length as the Sanwa JLW shaft, it looks like it is.
 2) With the softjoy switches, does it definitely work well for 4-way. The reason I ask is because I'm currently using a JLW with the switches that a Happ super would use. I keep this joystick in 4 way mode but the diagonals are easy enough to hit (I can actually play Robotron, using it).
I look forward to giving this stick a try. I'm hoping it compares well to the Sanwa JLW.

[RandyT]

1) Is the shaft, the same length as the Sanwa JLW shaft, it looks like it is.

Shaft length is about 2.8" to the top of the ball.

2) With the softjoy switches, does it definitely work well for 4-way. The reason I ask is because I'm currently using a JLW with the switches that a Happ super would use. I keep this joystick in 4 way mode but the diagonals are easy enough to hit (I can actually play Robotron, using it).

It is impossible to hit diagonals in 4-way mode with the SmoothJoy switch option installed.  It is nearly perfect with regard to dead-zone between cardinal directions.  You won't be playing Robotron in 4-way mode (at least not well) with this configuration.  But that's what the 8-way mode is for .

RandyT

[wizkid32]

Dang!  Wish I could afford something like that!  Sadly, my budget restricts me to Happ Supers.   

[Mamezilla]

Will this fit easily into my X-Arcade as a replacement stick? 

Or will I need to make it fit by drilling/hacking?

These should fit right in, without hacking.  The only concern might be available depth.  You will need 2.25" clearance below the bottom surface of the upper panel.

Great!  Thanks.

Did you end up installing some of these in your X-Arcade ?  Do they clear the bottom panel ?
Thanks

[RetroBorg]

Hi Randy,

Just wondering if you have a diagram of the OMNI2 showing the measurements?

I'm particularly interested in the the measurements of the mounting plate.

[RandyT]

Just wondering if you have a diagram of the OMNI2 showing the measurements?

I'm particularly interested in the the measurements of the mounting plate.

I don't have a plate drawing at the moment, as they are pretty much the same as other sticks out there.  They are bolt-up compatible with HAPP style sticks, as well as the smaller Japanese models using the angled holes.

The outside dimensions of the plate are 78mmx95mm (3.07"x3.74").  You'll need about 2 1/4" of clearance below the underside of the mounting plate.

RandyT

[DaOld Man]

Looks good Randy, now when are you going to motorize these babies?

[Le Chuck]

What happens if you are in 4-way and it's trying to turn to 8-way and your 6-way year old has the stick pointed straight up and it can't turn?

I doubt whether your 6 year old would be strong enough to stop it switching.

where do you go to buy a little motor for something like that? Is there anything plug and play out there that would work? This is just curiosity, I really have no intentions of trying it but it would be a cool thing to check out.

I think you are right, the leverage on the stick vs force from a motor locked onto that restrictor should be like night and day.

Old quotes I know but wanted to get it out there that we've been doing this for a while over on the Mrotate side, there is even a how to in the wiki.  I have one running on my cab using an OMNI2 and you can lean on the joy all you want, the restrictor will be rotated when the servo kicks.  I am a dedicated fan of the Omni2 because I think it's a great all around joy and it's super easy to configure to auto-switch with a cheap servo and controller.  If Randy can get it integrated and have it fire on a simple batch command the software is already out there to automate it... which just happened to win the best software of 2011 I think .

If you're reading this crazy thread the take away is...Buy this joy.    

[RetroBorg]

Just wondering if you have a diagram of the OMNI2 showing the measurements?

I'm particularly interested in the the measurements of the mounting plate.

I don't have a plate drawing at the moment, as they are pretty much the same as other sticks out there.  They are bolt-up compatible with HAPP style sticks, as well as the smaller Japanese models using the angled holes.

The outside dimensions of the plate are 78mmx95mm (3.07"x3.74").  You'll need about 2 1/4" of clearance below the underside of the mounting plate.

RandyT

Thanks Randy, how high is the joystick from the plate?

I'm thinking of using these on my LAI cocktail table but if they are too tall they won't fit under the glass.

[lanman31337]

Hmmm, depending on the force needed to rotate the stick, I bet a rc plane servo + limit switch would work fantastic on those.  You can get them to run at 5 volts too.

[Le Chuck]

Hmmm, depending on the force needed to rotate the stick, I bet a rc plane servo + limit switch would work fantastic on those.  You can get them to run at 5 volts too.

There is no need of a limit switch if using a positional servo.  Cheap and simple.  Other than that you'd bet right. 

[GZed]

Sorry to resurrect an ancient thread, but it seemed the best place to ask this:

My current joystick mounting bolt pattern is 4 holes in a 66mm x 77mm rectangle.  Will some of the holes on the OMNI2 match this bolt pattern?