Why the LCD TV hate?

[honkey]

I got my computer that I am going to be using for my build and I got MAME .144 all configured. Right now it is hooked up to my TV via HDMI and I think it looks great! If I had known how good it would look on an LCD, I may have considered just building a showcase cab with my TV and saved a lot of money that could have gone towards a visual pinball machine... Not that I am too disappointed as my MKII cabinet is awesome with a working monitor, but it seems to me that people have this idea that LCD tv's are just horrible for arcade games, and I disagree now that I have seen it myself. I think the only game that looks sub-par is Pac-man, and even that is not bad, just not great.

[codefenix]

LCDs are very sharp, and therefore present a less "authentic" arcade picture.  People tend to prefer the gritty picture and scanlines on a CRT TV or monitor.

[RandyT]

LCD's are only "horrible" for lightgun games    But nowadays, the options are getting slimmer for CRTs, so like it or not, LCD (or Plasma) is going to have to do until something better comes along.

Higher powered systems, couple with a high resolution LCD and some anti-aliasing code will still look very nice.  But it takes a lot more effort and money to try to replicate the look of a CRT on the newer technologies than it it does to use them directly.

RandyT

[leapinlew]

LCDs are very sharp, and therefore present a less "authentic" arcade picture.  People tend to prefer the gritty picture and scanlines on a CRT TV or monitor.

Ding ding ding...

I mean, think about it. You are building an entire cabinet to simulate the arcade experience. A monitor is crucial to that. If we are talking about saving money, why not just use gamepads? That's definitely cheaper. Some people feel a stretched widescreen LCD is fine, and some don't. I use authentic arcade monitors in 2 of my 3 cabinets and I prefer them, but as soon as they die I'll probably have to do LCD's and try to get the correct look with software.

[honkey]

I do like the aspect ratio to be correct, but black bars around the sides don't bother me. I didn't change any settings at all and I think most games look fine. For the classics, I use scanline effects and I think it looks better. Don't get me wrong, arcade monitor is definitely the better option, but LCD isn't anywhere near as bad as I think people make it out to be.

[leapinlew]

I do like the aspect ratio to be correct, but black bars around the sides don't bother me. I didn't change any settings at all and I think most games look fine. For the classics, I use scanline effects and I think it looks better. Don't get me wrong, arcade monitor is definitely the better option, but LCD isn't anywhere near as bad as I think people make it out to be.

You'll find that to be the case with nearly everything (arcade or not).

Wait till you ask people what the best joystick is.

[VanillaGorilla]

All I gotta say is, the HLSL feature thats been added to MAME/MESS is blowing me away. I just sit there and look at Pac Man on my LCD now, and mutter to myself 'that looks so f'ing awesome', this is what I have been waiting for in MAME for 15 years. CRT's will become superfluous as this filter tech advances. I have a 1920x1200 27" LCD in my cab. If I increase the pre-scaling on 320x240 games to 6X

• , and 5x[y], and then apply scanlines and shadow mask, .01 pincushion, a touch of scanline jitter and some de-focus, wow does it look good. The sprites in berzerk actually have a little 'glow' to them now (using the red/ble/green power adjustment). I really couldn't be much happier with it at this point, outside of speed optimization...Much love, mamedev's.

[honkey]

I do like the aspect ratio to be correct, but black bars around the sides don't bother me. I didn't change any settings at all and I think most games look fine. For the classics, I use scanline effects and I think it looks better. Don't get me wrong, arcade monitor is definitely the better option, but LCD isn't anywhere near as bad as I think people make it out to be.

You'll find that to be the case with nearly everything (arcade or not).

Wait till you ask people what the best joystick is.

I suppose that is true. If I had tried it out for myself sooner, I probably would have sacrificed the little bit of quality and made a showcase cabinet and then would have used my savings to start working on a visual pinball. I may still be able to make one in a few months though... There have been a lot of deals on TV's on craigslist lately.

[JODY]

My major issue is I can't get some games to use more of the screen.  E.g. Williams games like Joust and Robotron wind up taking up a small box in the middle of the screen.  I realize this is due to scaling the resolution up but I would think it should be able to be done so that it uses the full height of the screen.  Anyone know how to work around this?

[leapinlew]

My major issue is I can't get some games to use more of the screen.  E.g. Williams games like Joust and Robotron wind up taking up a small box in the middle of the screen.  I realize this is due to scaling the resolution up but I would think it should be able to be done so that it uses the full height of the screen.  Anyone know how to work around this?

There are a bazillion things you can try, but I always swapped out the video card and that would fix it. Onboard Intel on older boards used to give me the biggest trouble.

[honkey]

My major issue is I can't get some games to use more of the screen.  E.g. Williams games like Joust and Robotron wind up taking up a small box in the middle of the screen.  I realize this is due to scaling the resolution up but I would think it should be able to be done so that it uses the full height of the screen.  Anyone know how to work around this?

That is weird... I didn't change any settings at all and Joust takes up the full height of the screen.

[Paul Olson]

I used an arcade monitor for 8 years, then finally decided I was tired of fighting with it. Now that I have an LCD TV, I am really happy with it. I haven't even started messing with the shader settings yet, but that should allow me to make it look even better. Not sure though, I kinda like seeing what the sprites actually looked like when designed.

[Jack Burton]

Do you know how music fans sometimes say that records are better than cd's?  Or film enthusiasts stress that actual film is better than digital video?

Well, that's sort of how I am with classic video games and CRT's.  

[lettuce]

All I gotta say is, the HLSL feature thats been added to MAME/MESS is blowing me away. I just sit there and look at Pac Man on my LCD now, and mutter to myself 'that looks so f'ing awesome', this is what I have been waiting for in MAME for 15 years. CRT's will become superfluous as this filter tech advances. I have a 1920x1200 27" LCD in my cab. If I increase the pre-scaling on 320x240 games to 6X

• , and 5x[y], and then apply scanlines and shadow mask, .01 pincushion, a touch of scanline jitter and some de-focus, wow does it look good. The sprites in berzerk actually have a little 'glow' to them now (using the red/ble/green power adjustment). I really couldn't be much happier with it at this point, outside of speed optimization...Much love, mamedev's.

Yeah Defo agree with this. HLSL rules!! This is what i have been messing about with which im fairly happy with soo far........

hlsl_enable 1
hlslpath hlsl
hlsl_prescale_size 2
hlsl_preset -1
hlsl_write
hlsl_snap_width 1920
hlsl_snap_height 1080
shadow_mask_alpha 0.15
shadow_mask_texture aperture.png
shadow_mask_x_count 512
shadow_mask_y_count 384
shadow_mask_usize 0.09375
shadow_mask_vsize 0.09375
curvature 0.05
screen_scale_top 1.0
screen_scale_bottom 1.0
pincushion 0.0
scanline_alpha 0.80
scanline_size 0.90
scanline_height 1.00
scanline_bright_scale 1.50
scanline_bright_offset 0.60
scanline_jitter 0.05
defocus_x 1.5
defocus_y 1.5
red_converge_x -0.4
red_converge_y -0.6
green_converge_x 0.0
green_converge_y 0.0
blue_converge_x 0.0
blue_converge_y 0.0
red_radial_converge_x 0.0
red_radial_converge_y 0.0
green_radial_converge_x 0.0
green_radial_converge_y 0.0
blue_radial_converge_x 0.0
blue_radial_converge_y 0.0
red_from_r 1
red_from_g 0.0
red_from_b 0.0
green_from_r 0.0
green_from_g 1
green_from_b 0.0
blue_from_r 0.0
blue_from_g 0.0
blue_from_b 1
saturation 1.20
red_offset 0.0
green_offset 0.0
blue_offset 0.0
red_scale 1.20
green_scale 1.20
blue_scale 1.20
red_power 1.70
green_power 1.70
blue_power 1.70
red_floor 0.06
green_floor 0.06
blue_floor 0.06
red_phosphor_life 0.10
green_phosphor_life 0.10
blue_phosphor_life 0.10
yiq_enable 0
yiq_cc 3.59754545
yiq_a 0.5
yiq_b 0.5
yiq_o 0.0
yiq_p 1.0
yiq_y 3.0
yiq_i 1.2
yiq_q 0.6
yiq_scan_time 52.6
yiq_phase_count 2

Can u share your setting VanillaGorilla? Sound like you have a much great understanding about HLSL than i do

[VanillaGorilla]

Can u share your setting VanillaGorilla? Sound like you have a much great understanding about HLSL than i do

I will post some settings when I get home tonight. I am adjusting them on a game by game basis, but I do have a general configuration that I at least start with. I am just throwing punches in the dark, trial and error. I dont claim to have a great understanding of all of the settings, but once you start breaking things, you'll learn real fast what works and why

[RandyT]

I really need to check this HLSL out.  Amazing number of options.  From the looks of it, full blown CRT emulation is already well underway!

What kind of performance hit does it cause?

[ids]

...I kinda like seeing what the sprites actually looked like when designed.

imho, when designed, they would have been designed by an "artist" staring at a CRT.... so the blur, colour bleeding, and all that went into the original design.  In another thread I recall reading that some sprites were designed with pink pixels and such.  The end result does not show the pink as neighbouring pixels bleed colours together.  So, if this is true, to see the way it was designed, you would need a CRT (perhaps even a real arcade crt, not just a tv or other type).

otoh, looking at these games on a high res LCD without HLSL effects does give a very crisp look at things.  I was set up that way for a while and didn't mind it at all, but some guests complained

[RandyT]

imho, when designed, they would have been designed by an "artist" staring at a CRT.... so the blur, colour bleeding, and all that went into the original design.  In another thread I recall reading that some sprites were designed with pink pixels and such.  The end result does not show the pink as neighbouring pixels bleed colours together.  So, if this is true, to see the way it was designed, you would need a CRT (perhaps even a real arcade crt, not just a tv or other type).

I smell another 14 page thread.

Agreed 100%, as I was one of those artists doing exactly that at the time.

[LeedsFan]

I need to read up on this HLSL option. But two very quick questions to begin with....

1)  Which version of mame did this get added?
2)  Is it only useful for people with LCD monitors? I mean... if I have an old CRT PC monitor is HLSL of any use?

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

I probably would have ended up with an LCD if I could get one big enough.. It's really the aspect ratio that killed it for me. I wanted it to fit in a given footprint.

[RandyT]

I probably would have ended up with an LCD if I could get one big enough.. It's really the aspect ratio that killed it for me. I wanted it to fit in a given footprint.

While it's true that the more common and less costly LCD's are 16:9, there are still plenty of 4:3's out there to be had.  This is especially true for the "commercial" models.

Here's one example (but get your wallet ready  )

[ed12]

ok soooo why so high on crt ?
give me a break...where are u going to get a fresh crt when your's crap's out??
un-less u have been asleep at the switch crt is a dying breed...
lcd took over,given the 4-3 ratio,better white blance control
there making better in-road's
olny down side i do not like is the avg life span of 5 year's
beside's the odd bar fight smashed display
there easy enough to fix,i mean give me a break a few cap's in the inveter supply,and maybe a new cft..here and there..they are perty much rock soild
gone are the tweak's :foucs/screen:
yes there a tad higher in price
but at 345+ for a crt...400.00+ for a lcd that drop's right in
give it up
just 2% worth

ed

[leapinlew]

ok soooo why so high on crt ?
give me a break...where are u going to get a fresh crt when your's crap's out??
un-less u have been asleep at the switch crt is a dying breed...
lcd took over,given the 4-3 ratio,better white blance control
there making better in-road's
olny down side i do not like is the avg life span of 5 year's
beside's the odd bar fight smashed display
there easy enough to fix,i mean give me a break a few cap's in the inveter supply,and maybe a new cft..here and there..they are perty much rock soild
gone are the tweak's :foucs/screen:
yes there a tad higher in price
but at 345+ for a crt...400.00+ for a lcd that drop's right in
give it up
just 2% worth

ed

English please.


From what I could tell, you're saying CRT's are done and we should abandon them. Maybe you haven't noticed but arcades are dead too.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, CRTs look more authentic.

Get over that and your cab got a whole lot cheaper and monitor a whole lot easier to get and manage.

[RandyT]

ok soooo why so high on crt ?

If you have seen the difference where it matters, you wouldn't be asking   If you like playing old consoles, something like a 2600 looks terrible on anything but a real CRT.

give me a break...where are u going to get a fresh crt when your's crap's out??
un-less u have been asleep at the switch crt is a dying breed...

Well, some folks have a few in reserve (guilty), and with a 15 to 30+ year lifespan (depending on conditions) that's enough to keep things going until your kids inherit it.  The service you describe to keep an LCD going isn't much different to keep a CRT alive.  The major difference in that regard is phosphor burn, or guns wearing out, which is not easily fixable.  Then again, that usually takes a very long time to happen, and CRT's aren't as susceptible to incidental breakage either.

If you want to talk weight, size, power consumption and new availability, CRT's will lose every time.  But folks who like them don't care about any of those things.  All of my TV's are new technology, but I have a 37" RGB CRT I play lightgun games on very often, because so far, that can't be done better in any reasonable way.  So as long as it's there, it's also my DDR machine, and it makes my older console games look great.  I'll give that one up when they pry it from my cold...(etc)

[Bootay]

Agreed. I have LCD TVs for watching TV and playing modern consoles (360, PS3, etc.) and a 27' CRT for my classic consoles (Atari 2600, NES, etc.). The arcade monitor in my cab hasn't died yet so I am still sticking with that (even though the damned thing weighs as much as my car). If my arcade monitor ever dies, I will look into trying an LCD with Vanilla's described settings, but until then I will stick with my CRT. If I ever went LCD I would definitely shoot for a 4:3 though.

[ahofle]

If you want to talk weight, size, power consumption and new availability, CRT's will lose every time.  But folks who like them don't care about any of those things. 

Exactly I never understand why those are listed as such huge drawbacks of CRTs.  I mean how often are people moving their CRTs around?  And power consumption -- I'll bet 90% of the people touting that as a huge deal breaker drive gas guzzling cars and leave their computers running 24x7. 

[JODY]

My major issue is I can't get some games to use more of the screen.  E.g. Williams games like Joust and Robotron wind up taking up a small box in the middle of the screen.  I realize this is due to scaling the resolution up but I would think it should be able to be done so that it uses the full height of the screen.  Anyone know how to work around this?

That is weird... I didn't change any settings at all and Joust takes up the full height of the screen.

I'm using the onboard ATI graphics hooked up to a Samsung 52" 1080p TV.  I don't plan on using this for arcade games.  It is my HTPC but use it for playing around with MAME, etc.  I have the same issue on another PC wih a 22" 1080p monitor.  It also has onboard ATI graphics. 

[Jack Burton]

RE: increasing scarcity of CRT's

Right now there are millions upon millions of CRT's just sitting around unused.  Most of them are in excellent condition.

Now, many of those are televisions and pc monitors, so perhaps they aren't quite what people are referring to when they say CRT's are becoming rare.  What they really mean is arcade monitors are becoming rare.

And perhaps they are.  However, the demand for them is also much less than it used to be.  Operators are content to use LCD replacements, and the only real market for arcade monitors now is in the hands of the amateurs like us. 

If you look on ebay right now and use the search term "CGA monitor" you'll find a variety of CRT's for sale that are suitable for use in an arcade machine and will produce a very nice image. 

Going back to the notion of televisions and PC monitors; there are probably 1000x  as many of these as there are CGA "arcade" monitors in existence.  These have some big drawbacks, notably the tv's only supporting coaxial input, or the pc monitors not accepting 15khz resolutions. 

For the time being, the coaxial-only tv's are not going to be a popular option.  The image quality just doesn't cut it.  I'd rather have an LCD.  We shouldn't throw them all out though.  They can potentially still be used by hacking their circuitry to add RGB inputs, or using their tubes for tube swaps to replace ones with burn-in.   They can also have their chassis replaced relatively easily and be converted to arcade use. 

PC monitors are usually very nice.  They have solid construction, and have RGB video over the VGA cable.  The only downside is that they usually have a very fine dot pitch and will not sync to 15khz.  They can be run at 120hz in MAME for native resolution.  I personally believe this mode is vastly superior to using some manner of scaling.  This can't currently be done easily with a real arcade pcb. 

There is one more kind of CRT out there.  The "pro" monitor.  Things like the Sony PVM, or NEC XM series.  These are actually rather plentiful on ebay, and other places like medical surplus warehouses.  For all nearly all intents and purposes, they are the equal of any arcade monitor.  And best of all, they're still being made.  I believe the future of arcade CRT's may lie with these as time goes by. 

[DCsegaDH]

I just got an 28" 16x10 LCD monitor, I'm using filters so it looks pretty good. I don't have enough money for a arcade monitor or the room to fit one in, I'm building a Japanese style sit down cabinet. If I did have the room I would probably got a CRT arcade monitor in a normal cabinet, but right now I'm sticking with the LCD monitor. I like both, its just preference anyway. 

[Paul Olson]

...I kinda like seeing what the sprites actually looked like when designed.

imho, when designed, they would have been designed by an "artist" staring at a CRT.... so the blur, colour bleeding, and all that went into the original design.  In another thread I recall reading that some sprites were designed with pink pixels and such.  The end result does not show the pink as neighbouring pixels bleed colours together.  So, if this is true, to see the way it was designed, you would need a CRT (perhaps even a real arcade crt, not just a tv or other type).

otoh, looking at these games on a high res LCD without HLSL effects does give a very crisp look at things.  I was set up that way for a while and didn't mind it at all, but some guests complained

We had to make some (crappy) sprites for some of the older systems for some of my game dev classes at school. I guess I see them a little different as I had to make them with the same constraints looking at an LCD screen. It didn't take me long to start just making blocks for everything. It was way easier to get the games working right with that than trying to spend all of my time making sprites that were never going to be good. Trying to do games without an artist sucks. lol

[Xiaou2]

I think a little documented issue with Arcade CRT's is "Dot Pitch".  For example, the original monitors on a Pac Man, is probably using a much lower dot pitch than anything that replaced it years later...  and the resulting look, is quite different.

 The shadowmasks have gotten smaller and smaller over the years, and so the black lines of the masks being thinner do not obscure or blur the image as much.  Phosphor glow also does not bleed as much, maybe due to the guns being more accurate..   or merely the shadowmask lined being thinner.

 The argument is easily seen on typical tube tvs to a larger degree.  Even at low resolution, my sony 34" widescreen CRT hdtv is way too clean looking.  No bleed, color blending, blur..etc.  Even the old 27" panasonic with 480i capability looks different than the old arcade monitors.    Certainly looks more authentic than the sony, but still not arcade accurate by any means.


 The HLSL feature is a very welcome feature.  However, its labels and settings are hard to really figure out.  Theres no real standard set of semi-accurate presets included... yet.  And the people working on their own filters, seem to be just making something that looks good to them, rather than trying to compare an actual arcade monitor on the spot, and match that result closely as possible. (nor using monitor spec data, such as dot pitch... color output ranges, etc)

 Hopefully in time that will change.   The other thing about the filter... Im not sure it calculates things like color bleeding and staggered pixel effects.  An example, is that some games used a diagonally staggered pattern of black lines.  When viewed in mame, you can see the pattern...  however, when viewed on a real arcade monitor... you see what appears to be a darker transparent (see-through) graphic.  (such as a floating power bar,  a characters shadow, etc)

 I believe there were also games that used crt refresh timing to create certain effects as well. I think I read something about a trick where they would draw between a scanline.

[shateredsoul1979]

I love my lcd tv. No one, including me, cares that it doesn't look authentic. Works great for newer arcade games like taito type x and super street fighter 4. I have vertical games take up all the vertical space and keep aspect ratio, and the horizontal game are stretched to fit the entire screen (blasphemy! I know!).

[ids]

BLASPHEMY

actually, whatever works for you is the best


Are we at page 2 yet?  I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for...

I smell another 14 page thread.

Xiaou...as for scanline effects, to my knowledge there are things done, such as switching colour palettes, flipping sprites, etc

[Unstupid]

Has anyone tried a SLG3000?  I'd like to try adding scan lines but I'm not doing Mame so no HLSL...

http://wp1114205.wp150.webpack.hosteurope.de/xtcmodified/index.php?cPath=3

[brad808]

 The HLSL feature is a very welcome feature.  However, its labels and settings are hard to really figure out.  Theres no real standard set of semi-accurate presets included... yet.  And the people working on their own filters, seem to be just making something that looks good to them, rather than trying to compare an actual arcade monitor on the spot, and match that result closely as possible. (nor using monitor spec data, such as dot pitch... color output ranges,

I think it would be cool if people started to do that, basically match the effect to the original game.

[D_Harris]

I need to read up on this HLSL option. But two very quick questions to begin with....

1)  Which version of mame did this get added?
2)  Is it only useful for people with LCD monitors? I mean... if I have an old CRT PC monitor is HLSL of any use?

Anyone?

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[boardjunkie]

As far as pwr consumption goes....anyone ever look at the info tag on the back of a large plasma tv? a 58" plasma draws over 560w (!). The newer LED backlit LCDs are far more efficient than CCFL lit types. CRTs draw on average around 125w.

[ids]

Not sure what version of mame added it - buy check the mame devs logs, should be easy to find.  HLSL would not really be useful, or desirable, on a CRT, as the purpose is to simulate CRT effects.

Comparing 560w from a 58" plasma to a 125w CRT of ...which size (or are they all about the same ballpark, whether 10", 20", 36")?

[BadMouth]

Has anyone tried a SLG3000?  I'd like to try adding scan lines but I'm not doing Mame so no HLSL...

http://wp1114205.wp150.webpack.hosteurope.de/xtcmodified/index.php?cPath=3

Just when I had given up on the 27" LCD I bought for my "NON-MAME" cab.

Is there anywhere else to buy from?

[honkey]

I have found one thing I do not like about the LCD since I posted this topic. Games with a lot of flashiness are REALLY bright when the lights are flashing. Street Fighter 3 has what I am talking about in the intro. It doesn't happen with any games I have tested during the game itself, but flashy intros can be hard to look at.

[Corbo]

My last full sized cabinet had an original Hantarex CRT.  It cost me £15 to get a TV engineer to fit a new cap kit and it was as good as new.  As others have said the combination of the correct aspect ratio, the natural aliasing, the authentic pixel size, the smell of the old girl working away and even the static that made your chest hair stand on end just added to the authentic arcade feeling.

Eventually that gave up the ghost and I decased and replaced it with a regular 4:3 CRT TV with a modified scart adapter and an arcadeVGA card.  It was just as good, and there are hundred of thousands of good CRT TV's out there for peanuts.  If I was making a full size cab again I'd use a CRT TV.

I am however going to have to go and investigate these CRT emulation features mentioned in this thread, they sound great and I really hope they can provide an authentic feel.

[Gray_Area]

...the smell of the old girl working away and even the static that made your chest hair stand on end just added to the authentic arcade feeling.

Down boy.

Not sure what version of mame added it - buy check the mame devs logs, should be easy to find.  HLSL would not really be useful, or desirable, on a CRT, as the purpose is to simulate CRT effects.

HLSL looks good on any hi-res (I mean 1024x768 and up) monitor, LCD or CRT. I use it on my PC CRT. I use it on my 1024x768 presentation monitor. Both look great. The presentation monitor looks better.

I've found that messing with the settings screws up rendering, desktop resolution relative to game resolution. That is, you have to create inis for each resolution. So I only add scanlines (scanline_alpha 1.0), and 1:1 aspect is maintained for (nearly) all games. (The exception, depending on desktop resolution/aspect ration, is 224x256 or 224x288 run on a horizontal oriented monitor.)

As for LCDs in themselves (and even plasmas, though they're better), is the backlighting. As they say: 'once you go black.....'.....um, well, you know.

[D_Harris]

My last full sized cabinet had an original Hantarex CRT.  It cost me £15 to get a TV engineer to fit a new cap kit and it was as good as new.  As others have said the combination of the correct aspect ratio, the natural aliasing, the authentic pixel size, the smell of the old girl working away and even the static that made your chest hair stand on end just added to the authentic arcade feeling.

Eventually that gave up the ghost and I decased and replaced it with a regular 4:3 CRT TV with a modified scart adapter and an arcadeVGA card.  It was just as good, and there are hundred of thousands of good CRT TV's out there for peanuts.  If I was making a full size cab again I'd use a CRT TV.

I am however going to have to go and investigate these CRT emulation features mentioned in this thread, they sound great and I really hope they can provide an authentic feel.

I guess that the "authentic feel" is what it's about.

Overall the only advantage I see in LCDs is that the are lighter and have a smaller foot print.

If you've seen an HD LCD and HD CRT side by side you'd know that the LCD is not "better".

The biggest advantage of having a CRT over an LCD is that the CRTs last longer. the two CRT sets I've gotten rid of were just too small for me. (13"). But outside of an audio problem, which could have easily been repaired, they gave me no problems and lasted over 20 years. I'd have to buy at least 1/2 dozen LCDs in that time period.(And that's a conservative estimate). Of course I will have to put up with the scratches(in those extremely fragile screens) and other issues which will undoubtedly arise.

I actually just cannibalized a couple of TV CRTs for use with a couple of my arcade game monitors that have tubes with too much burn-in.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[VanillaGorilla]

HLSL has been in MAME for 2 release cycles thus far, since .143. The latest MAME .144 has a stable and dependable implementation of the HLSL additions. Avoid the .143b release, its buggy. If you compile, you want .143u8 or higher.

Re: resource consumption - Your pre-scale values are going to affect this the most. I pr-escale 5x-6x on older 320x240 games such as Pac Man, Donkey Kong etc, but a game like Venture will totally choke with that much pre scaling. Pre scaling has an appearance effect, so higher values will give you a nice crisp image with good 'pixel jaggies' at high resolution, in certain situations that may not be desirable, and the more blurred or smudged look that lower pre scaling values cause may be preferred (also in the case of Venture, not only is it waaay faster, but looks better with lower pre-scale values(3-4) than higher values(5+). I am also using a 1920x1200 display so upscaling from 320x240 requires a higher value if I want 'square, sharp' pixels. (320x6 = 1920, 240x5 = 1200). if you match the scaling factor with your displays native resolution, it looks very much like running the old directDraw implementation without any effects, not the D3D implementation which is very 'smudgy' looking. Instead, you get Big Chunky Pixels (TM) with D3D now using the pre-scaling option.

[boardjunkie]

CRT *monitors* should all be within a small margin of each other. Maybe the uber giant home theatre type TVs with big audio amps/spkrs would draw considerably more, but that would be due to the audio mostly. Larger tubes really don't differ too much in pwr requirements. The only real difference being the HV second anode supply needs to be of a higher voltage, but there's no current there.

[danny_galaga]

LCD all the way for me.  I'm praying for all my remaining CRTs to die so I can get rid of them.

[danny_galaga]

My main reservation with LCD is the viewing angle for cocktail cabs. Also, with cocktail cabs, 16:9 just looks pretty crap to me.

In regards CRT's, dunno about elsewhere, but in Australia, people are still putting out their old CRT tellies on the nature strip for hard rubbish collection. Many of them work fine, and are instantly the perfect thing for old consoles. Also, there is a guy here who makes custom arcade chassis for CRT TV's. You tell him what make and model, and for something like $130 he'll send you a chassis. Even in most of the broken TV's, the tube is still fine. So for $130 or so (don't know what the current price is) you have a perfectly fine alternative to a commercial arcade CRT.

Having said all that, if I build another mame cab, it'll be an upright and I'll relent and get an LCD. All the mucking around with graphics cards and settings for an arcade monitor is just a tad too technical for me. I'll just make a bezel that hides the superfluous edges so and run the games in 4:3...

[opt2not]

...I kinda like seeing what the sprites actually looked like when designed.

imho, when designed, they would have been designed by an "artist" staring at a CRT.... so the blur, colour bleeding, and all that went into the original design.  In another thread I recall reading that some sprites were designed with pink pixels and such.  The end result does not show the pink as neighbouring pixels bleed colours together.  So, if this is true, to see the way it was designed, you would need a CRT (perhaps even a real arcade crt, not just a tv or other type).

otoh, looking at these games on a high res LCD without HLSL effects does give a very crisp look at things.  I was set up that way for a while and didn't mind it at all, but some guests complained

^^ This.

Also, CRTs last longer.

[Jack Burton]

I suppose I should just outright answer the OP.  Why I "hate" LCD's:


-They have input delay

-They are not available in 4:3 ratio.

-The graphics don't look right on them.

Of course, each of these points may be easily refuted to one degree or another.  But in a nutshell, that's it. 

[Paul Olson]

Having said all that, if I build another mame cab, it'll be an upright and I'll relent and get an LCD. All the mucking around with graphics cards and settings for an arcade monitor is just a tad too technical for me. I'll just make a bezel that hides the superfluous edges so and run the games in 4:3...

You should be able to put those edges to good use. The lay files for the artwork should be able to edited to make better use of that space. I say should because I haven't had time to try it, but it should be fairly easy to do. I hope to start playing with it a bit before the end of the year, but I need to build a new cab first. Well, if it stays cold out, maybe I will work on the lay files instead.

[nitz]

All I gotta say is, the HLSL feature thats been added to MAME/MESS is blowing me away. I just sit there and look at Pac Man on my LCD now, and mutter to myself 'that looks so f'ing awesome', this is what I have been waiting for in MAME for 15 years. CRT's will become superfluous as this filter tech advances.

+1 This pretty much sums things up for me. I got an LCD for my (still unfinished ) project almost 3 years ago. I went LCD because I wanted a light monitor for rotation and an easy plug and play solution. But it always bugged me a little that I didn't go with something more authentic. Until the HLSL feature was added to Mame. Now I simply see no reason to use a CRT - tweak HLSL just right and put it behind some smoked plexi, and I think it's gonna look damn near perfect. Nothing wrong with wanting to go absolutely authentic and get a real CRT, but honestly, it just doesn't seem necessary anymore unless you're someone who absolutely MUST have 100% authenticity. I'm willing to trade what is now a teensy bit of authenticity for a super easy solution.

I suppose I should just outright answer the OP.  Why I "hate" LCD's:


-They have input delay

-They are not available in 4:3 ratio.

-The graphics don't look right on them.

Of course, each of these points may be easily refuted to one degree or another.  But in a nutshell, that's it. 

I do hear ya on the no 4:3 ratio though. This is the only thing that really bugs me about LCDs, especially for a cab. To get about the equivalent of a 25" 4:3 you've gotta go 32" 16:9 which means your cab is gonna be in the neighborhood of 28"-29" wide even if you decase. That sucks. That's why I'm going rotating monitor in my cab.

I will refute your other 2 points to some degree though!

I think it's only TVs that have lag, not computer monitors, though someone please correct me if I'm wrong, because I only fairly recently learned about the lag problem on TVs. And I believe you can get TVs where the lag isn't a problem, but you've gotta do your homework before you buy.

As far as the graphics not looking right, well, that's what HLSL fixes. But this comes from someone who was too young to be there during the classics era, so if you grew up on the CRTs, I could understand why you would want to replicate that as much as humanly possible. I want to replicate that as much as possible too - only I'd like to use an LCD to do it.

You should be able to put those edges to good use. The lay files for the artwork should be able to edited to make better use of that space.

Actually, I think you need a special Mame compile, see here: http://mrdo.mameworld.info/mame_artwork_generic.html

Unfortunately, you need to use something older than 0.140, so no HLSL then.

[jekbrown]

In not a single moment of my 32 years of gaming in arcades and at home, have I once gave a crap that a games graphics were blurry CRT crap OR the crisp display of a modern HDTV.  It's ALL about the game play, that's all that matters.  Blury color-bleed-laden low res wouldn't help HALO.....nor would ultra-crispness "hurt" black and white space invaders.  Not for me anyway.  I realize other people disagree, and that's just fine.  My next cab will have an LCD, because it's lighter, more flexible with respect to cabinet design and simple-as-all-get-out to connect to a modern PC that will be the brain of the system.  I might fiddle with filters at some point, but I doubt I'll ever put much time in it.  The priority is reproducing the game play, after that everything else is just backround noise.

[danny_galaga]

You should be able to put those edges to good use. The lay files for the artwork should be able to edited to make better use of that space.

Actually, I think you need a special Mame compile, see here: http://mrdo.mameworld.info/mame_artwork_generic.html

Unfortunately, you need to use something older than 0.140, so no HLSL then.

Now see, that gets (to me) more complicated again. If I have to compile anything, or use something that doesn't just work 'out of the box' then I might as well get a TV and arcade chassis kit . If it's going to be a hassle, might as well make it a bit more genuine (",)

[Paul Olson]

It doesn't require a compile, but it would definitely require a lot of work. Ideally, it would turn into a project to modify the lay files that are included in the artwork files. It just requires that a new view is added to the lay file, and of course new images if needed. It would be great if they could be added to the official artwork files, but I don't know how that team would feel about it. It is a lot of work since this is per game, but I imagine the popular games would be the ones that are most likely to get done.

The views we have now were all made for us by the artwork team. It would take a dedicated effort to make the views for widescreen, but those who want to do it could share their work with everyone else.


All it would add is one view in the list in the tab menu, so it is just an additional option for those with widescreens. Below is a really quick view I did just to show the concept. All I did was move the game screen and bezel over, and add in a cocktail instruction card that was used in another view. It is just adding a view (or views if you want to have different style options) to an XML file.

That generic artwork one was modifying a built in lay file, so it needed to be recompiled since those lay files are located in the source. The lay files in the artwork zips are outside of mame, so no compile is needed.

[Paul Olson]

It is easy to add new images as well. Of course I would prefer the game be centered, but this is OK for an example I think.


Edit at 12:30: Still playing.

[Jack Burton]

I do hear ya on the no 4:3 ratio though. This is the only thing that really bugs me about LCDs, especially for a cab. To get about the equivalent of a 25" 4:3 you've gotta go 32" 16:9 which means your cab is gonna be in the neighborhood of 28"-29" wide even if you decase. That sucks. That's why I'm going rotating monitor in my cab.

I will refute your other 2 points to some degree though!

I think it's only TVs that have lag, not computer monitors, though someone please correct me if I'm wrong, because I only fairly recently learned about the lag problem on TVs. And I believe you can get TVs where the lag isn't a problem, but you've gotta do your homework before you buy.

As far as the graphics not looking right, well, that's what HLSL fixes. But this comes from someone who was too young to be there during the classics era, so if you grew up on the CRTs, I could understand why you would want to replicate that as much as humanly possible. I want to replicate that as much as possible too - only I'd like to use an LCD to do it.

HLSL is still just another kind of filter and does reproduce the image from a CRT.  It is nice though.  Not sure I'd use it.  I think I would be more inclined to just let the image from an LCD be what it is and play in blocky mode.  

LCD monitors can have input delay.  The older ones especially.  Additionally, even the best ones still have miniscule amounts.  Enough to alter gameplay?  Unlikely, but enough to cause me to steer clear of them.

[Jack Burton]

In not a single moment of my 32 years of gaming in arcades and at home, have I once gave a crap that a games graphics were blurry CRT crap OR the crisp display of a modern HDTV.  It's ALL about the game play, that's all that matters.  Blury color-bleed-laden low res wouldn't help HALO.....nor would ultra-crispness "hurt" black and white space invaders.  Not for me anyway.  I realize other people disagree, and that's just fine.  My next cab will have an LCD, because it's lighter, more flexible with respect to cabinet design and simple-as-all-get-out to connect to a modern PC that will be the brain of the system.  I might fiddle with filters at some point, but I doubt I'll ever put much time in it.  The priority is reproducing the game play, after that everything else is just backround noise.

If all that matters to you is the gameplay then you're going to want to pay attention to your monitors and your video modes.

You used space invaders as an example.  That's a shmup.  Those types of games are notorious for requiring pixel perfect spacing at the highest levels of play. 

Well, let's say you fired up MAME in whatever random resolution your desktop is configured for and switched to full screen. 

Now your screen has been scaled, and then probably blurred.  It's likely the scaling was not an exact duplicate, and now extra pixels have been added to the image that were not previously there.  Those extra pixels don't really exist. They're just part of the image you see, but aren't being considered by the game's programming.

So that single pixel move you have to make to squeeze through the bullet pattern on the final boss of a game like Do Don Pachi is now actually divided between the real pixel and the new "fake" one and blurred, making completion of the level nearly impossible.   

Sure, you can 2x, 3x, 4x etc scaling, but those may not fit the screen right either.  The game's resolution might not be a multiple of 4:3.  Some old games like SFII did this.  In this case you will have to squeeze it or stretch it anamorphically via software or your LCD monitor controls, and that adds scaling. 

Unless you have a CRT.  A CRT monitor can "automagically" stretch a non 4:3 res into full screen without scaling the image.  It can also sync to multiple refresh rates, something even more important than pixel spacing. 

Anybody who uses an LCD monitor is going to be locked into a single refresh rate among a variety of arcade games that used different ones.  The solution to that is to use V-sync and triple buffering, or simply play your games at the wrong speed.  But if you use V-sync then you get that damn input delay again.

So, yeah, gameplay can't be so easily divorced from video software or hardware. 

[lettuce]

Speaking of HLSL, anyone got a good setup for Vertical games? Whilst im happy with my settings for horizontal games when im playing vertical game it just doesnt look right, unless i got into video options (tab) and rotate the display 90 degress

[MonMotha]

The vast majority of the "problems" people cite with LCDs (unsuitable aspect ratio, input delay or "lag", viewing angles, fixed refresh rate, bad colors, and probably some others I'm not remembering right now) can be solved by buying a good (not just overall quality but also suitable for this particular purpose) LCD.  We're already starting to see dedicated arcade LCDs hit the market, and as these see more development, it's possible we'll see the support electronics develop to cater to the peculiar needs of this market.  There's nothing inherent in the LCD technology itself that causes these problems; it's simply the nature of the available panels as well as the support electronics that are generally made for television and PC monitor applications.

Unfortunately, "good" LCDs are hard to find since the specs you care about in this application are rarely published in any accurate or detailed form, and when you finally find one, it's bound to be fairly expensive (think $500+ for a ~20").  Given that you can buy an honest to god arcade monitor for about this price, that kinda puts a damper on the enthusiasm for going LCD, aside from the fact that they're smaller.  As CRTs become harder to find new and LCDs continue to be refined, this tradeoff may shift.  I'm not sure any manufacturer is still making the actual CRTs (bare tubes); all that's left are new old stock that are being put into the arcade monitors still on the market.

One thing you can't get around is the need to scale, since no panels are made at the sizes desired in the low resolutions the old games used, and, even if they were, you'd need a separate panel for each game, or you'd have to put up with small bars surrounding the game on the lower res stuff.  Fortunately, the relatively high resolution allows you to scale with some neat effects like the HLSL effects already mentioned.  A naieve bilinear or similar scale will indeed look pretty ugly in this application.  Hopefully, the MAME HLSL effects may eventually get tweaked enough to provide a good experience on a "good" LCD (see above).   They already look pretty impressive.

Now, none of this is to say I'm an LCD fan.  I'm not, at least when it comes to gaming.  Every arcade game I own has a CRT on it except for my beatmaniaIIDX which has a plasma as CRTs at 40-42" 16:9 were never made (the original monitor was an LCD projection set that died long before I acquired the cabinet and was problematic in other ways, anyway).  I even "stock" several new-in-box arcade monitors for the inevitable death of some of the ones in my games, and I repair whenever I can.  My PC gaming setup uses 3x24" widescreen CRTs.  I love the look of a good CRT, but I'm not going to be oblivious to the fact that they're going to be essentially impossible to get new within a few years.

[nitz]

It doesn't require a compile, but it would definitely require a lot of work. Ideally, it would turn into a project to modify the lay files that are included in the artwork files. It just requires that a new view is added to the lay file, and of course new images if needed. It would be great if they could be added to the official artwork files, but I don't know how that team would feel about it. It is a lot of work since this is per game, but I imagine the popular games would be the ones that are most likely to get done.

Good to know. I found that page when I was looking for info on it and then assumed you needed to compile.

HLSL is still just another kind of filter and does reproduce the image from a CRT.

I'm assuming from the context you meant "does not reproduce the image from a CRT". I know that of course, my point isn't that LCDs are as good as CRTs for old arcade games - they're not and never will be. My point is that I can get close enough (IMO) with an LCD now that seeking out and then messing with an arcade monitor isn't worth it to me. I can't bring myself to pay to get a heavy piece of old equipment shipped to me, not really knowing what shape it's in or long it'll last when there is a reasonable alternative. And I feel I would have to go arcade monitor instead of TV. A TV is not really the same as an arcade monitor anyway, so heck, I can get something that's not quite the same as an arcade monitor with an LCD, and at least I can use HLSL to tweak it to how I want it to look.

If all that matters to you is the gameplay then you're going to want to pay attention to your monitors and your video modes.

You used space invaders as an example.  That's a shmup.  Those types of games are notorious for requiring pixel perfect spacing at the highest levels of play. 

Well, let's say you fired up MAME in whatever random resolution your desktop is configured for and switched to full screen. 

Now your screen has been scaled, and then probably blurred.  It's likely the scaling was not an exact duplicate, and now extra pixels have been added to the image that were not previously there.  Those extra pixels don't really exist. They're just part of the image you see, but aren't being considered by the game's programming.

So that single pixel move you have to make to squeeze through the bullet pattern on the final boss of a game like Do Don Pachi is now actually divided between the real pixel and the new "fake" one and blurred, making completion of the level nearly impossible.   

Sure, you can 2x, 3x, 4x etc scaling, but those may not fit the screen right either.  The game's resolution might not be a multiple of 4:3.  Some old games like SFII did this.  In this case you will have to squeeze it or stretch it anamorphically via software or your LCD monitor controls, and that adds scaling. 

Unless you have a CRT.  A CRT monitor can "automagically" stretch a non 4:3 res into full screen without scaling the image.  It can also sync to multiple refresh rates, something even more important than pixel spacing. 

Anybody who uses an LCD monitor is going to be locked into a single refresh rate among a variety of arcade games that used different ones.  The solution to that is to use V-sync and triple buffering, or simply play your games at the wrong speed.  But if you use V-sync then you get that damn input delay again.

So, yeah, gameplay can't be so easily divorced from video software or hardware. 

I'm know all of that is absolutely true. And those things bug me a bit to some degree, but they can be mitigated somewhat by messing around in software. And I'm the kind of guy who would rather mess around in the software side of things than mess around with trying to interface to, maintain, and repair old pieces of tech.

I totally understand people's need for the CRTs. It just seems like too much trouble for too little benefit to me.

 

[ed12]

welp as i first posted
we all know crt's are going the way of the dodo bird..that's a given
happ has 27-29" on for $365.00 pentrec chassic
trimode
that aside i went to our local rehab and philip's 27-29" flat screen crt
$55.00..so my point was is if your into it
sure there is a ton of way's to keep the GOOD_OL_FEEL..
but how much is your time effort worth ?
if it is your's and this is a side line then i totaly get it
if it is to go back in the feild then no way .. <lcd-olny>..
in home crt if u can stock em,in field no way
do the math 25 game's of any age
=25 crt's of dif size's..thats alot of real state just to keep the feel


ed

[ahofle]

I'm know all of that is absolutely true. And those things bug me a bit to some degree, but they can be mitigated somewhat by messing around in software. And I'm the kind of guy who would rather mess around in the software side of things than mess around with trying to interface to, maintain, and repair old pieces of tech.

I totally understand people's need for the CRTs. It just seems like too much trouble for too little benefit to me.

 

sure there is a ton of way's to keep the GOOD_OL_FEEL..
but how much is your time effort worth ?

I think people overestimate the difficulty of using an arcade monitor.  I'll bet people spend more time fiddling with software effects than it takes to get an arcade monitor running.  With software like Groovymame and CRT_EmuDriver, I would argue it's now less work to use an arcade monitor (it chooses the correct and exact resolution AND refresh for you).  I can't stand screen tearing and running games at the correct resolution completely eliminates this.  That's a pretty big benefit. 

[Jack Burton]

HLSL is still just another kind of filter and does reproduce the image from a CRT.

I'm assuming from the context you meant "does not reproduce the image from a CRT".

right.

I think people overestimate the difficulty of using an arcade monitor.  I'll bet people spend more time fiddling with software effects than it takes to get an arcade monitor running.  With software like Groovymame and CRT_EmuDriver, I would argue it's now less work to use an arcade monitor (it chooses the correct and exact resolution AND refresh for you).  I can't stand screen tearing and running games at the correct resolution completely eliminates this.  That's a pretty big benefit. 

Indeed.  Really, if you can track down a professional video monitor like a Sony PVM or some such all you really need is a pc with a video card capable of outputting 15khz and a VGA cable.  Sometimes you might need to find a VGA>BNC cable.  No decasing, no breakout cables, no scary voltages, no spending hundreds of dollars.  Sure, they're not -really- arcade monitors, but they're miles and miles closer to a true arcade-purposed CGA monitor than any LCD. 

[ZeroPoint]

Speaking of HLSL, anyone got a good setup for Vertical games? Whilst im happy with my settings for horizontal games when im playing vertical game it just doesnt look right, unless i got into video options (tab) and rotate the display 90 degress

Like this ? : http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=113151.0

[Gray_Area]

In not a single moment of my 32 years of gaming in arcades and at home, have I once gave a crap that a games graphics were blurry CRT crap OR the crisp display of a modern HDTV.  It's ALL about the game play, that's all that matters...The priority is reproducing the game play, after that everything else is just backround noise.

Some people are more into the feeling than the quality of the feeling. I definitely am not one of these people.

[BrentRadio]

About to start building my mame setup. I have a Star Wars Cockpit sized cab. Would this be a good monitor for mame?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-25inch-CGA-EGA-arcade-monitor-299-00-/200668087924?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb8c00674

[lettuce]

Speaking of HLSL, anyone got a good setup for Vertical games? Whilst im happy with my settings for horizontal games when im playing vertical game it just doesnt look right, unless i got into video options (tab) and rotate the display 90 degress

Like this ? : http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=113151.0

Have u used HLSL settings then to achieve that? If so can u post ?

[ZeroPoint]

Have u used HLSL settings then to achieve that? If so can u post ?

Just posted my mame.ini settings for HLSL in the original topic:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=113151.0

[Gray_Area]

Makes me wonder if there are any LCD filters that can intentionally make the image a little crappy....

At first, it was coming that way out of the box. But, yes, it is featured much like a monitor chassis and neck board - you can increase the color gains, etc.

I always leave a couple of rough edges on my machines.  For example, the pinballs will intentionally have a few mismatched rubbers, or I'll leave a couple of overstretched old ones in there.  When I use a CRT, I generally overdrive the red a little.  It's not a question of laziness, it takes just as much time to do it that way as it would to make it 'better than new.'  However, it simulates the visual experience I had growing up playing the games.

 

These are the kinds of things UNICEF was created for. So that bright young children would grow up in a bright world.

[ed12]

most rca jug's like to lean a tad red..ever note that 1 ?...

ed

[Jack Burton]

Makes me wonder if there are any LCD filters that can intentionally make the image a little crappy....

I always leave a couple of rough edges on my machines.  For example, the pinballs will intentionally have a few mismatched rubbers, or I'll leave a couple of overstretched old ones in there.  When I use a CRT, I generally overdrive the red a little.  It's not a question of laziness, it takes just as much time to do it that way as it would to make it 'better than new.'  However, it simulates the visual experience I had growing up playing the games.

 

I kind of agree with you there.  Having a "perfect" image kind of takes away from the magic a little bit.  For games like black backgrounds and white text I'll usually crank the contrast up just a little bit high so that the whites bloom a bit and it gets that nice arcade glow around the high score with the lights off.  

most rca jug's like to lean a tad red..ever note that 1 ?...

ed

Not really sure what a "jug" is, but I do know that most tv's push red.   They're set that way at the factory because apparently people think an overly red image looks better.  I always go into the service menu and turn it back down if I can.

Who knows, maybe in the past some arcade ops or companies would dial up the red a little bit like pinballjim said in order to make the games seem to have some more "pop" (hate that word).

[Paul Olson]

This one has HLSL enabled. Not sure if you can tell the difference in the snapshot, but the game screen looks a lot more arcade authentic. This is the result I wanted when I decided to go with an LCD - scanlines on the game screen and hi res artwork around it. I never would have guessed it was already this far along.
Ignore the ugly layout on the DK; it is a work in progress that needs a lot of work (and different artwork). I think you can see the HLSL difference a little better in this one though.

[wizkid32]

I might add that some arcade machines used LCD monitors...  I plan on using one simply for availability.  Please no hate comments about MY choice.  Besides, M.A.M.E. has the option to mimic scanlines if I really want an lower quality picture...

[Jack Burton]

Please no hate comments about MY choice. Besides, M.A.M.E. has the option to mimic scanlines if I really want an lower quality picture...

No hate, just astonishment at the ignorance displayed if you think just turning on regular old scanlines in MAME in any way approximates the look of a CRT after reading this entire thread. 

[Gray_Area]

Who knows, maybe in the past some arcade ops or companies would dial up the red a little bit like pinballjim said in order to make the games seem to have some more "pop" (hate that word).

Not brighter. Richer. Like using amber/copper/etc lensed glasses. I think that aesthetic has passed, largely. The new stuff, particularly aimed at those under twenty-five, is *bright*.

I might add that some arcade machines used LCD monitors...  I plan on using one simply for availability.  Please no hate comments about MY choice.  Besides, M.A.M.E. has the option to mimic scanlines if I really want an lower quality picture...

Most still do. Those aren't arcade games. Where's Cheffo......

No hate, just astonishment at the ignorance displayed if you think just turning on regular old scanlines in MAME in any way approximates the look of a CRT after reading this entire thread. 

You might be surprised, though of course the hardware needs to catch up.

[wizkid32]

Point taken.  I am NOT saying that LCD picture is as accurate at replicating scan-lines as an arcade monitor.  I do, however, feel that the slight divergence from the arcades is an acceptable trade-off for being available, cheap, and easy to mount.  Also, more modern arcade games (which run at higher resolutions) look often better on an LCD than a CRT, due to the better picture quality.  Don't get me wrong, authenticity is good, but I personally prefer LCDs.

Just my three cents (adjusted for inflation).

[boardjunkie]

I might add that some arcade machines used LCD monitors...  I plan on using one simply for availability.  Please no hate comments about MY choice.  Besides, M.A.M.E. has the option to mimic scanlines if I really want an lower quality picture...

Its not about a "lower quality" picture, its about displaying games in the correct resolution. So I guess lower quality ends up be'n higher quality....to yer eyes. Believe me...nobody would go thru all the hassle it takes to do this via a PC unless the results were worth it....

[wizkid32]

Remind me to stay out of these heated conversations from now on.  
I really don't mean to insult anyone!  I was just expressing my opinion, and I am sorry if I came across as rude or sarcastic.  Let me rephrase my original post:

I believe some of the games in my local arcade use LCD/Flatpanel screens.  I plan on using one simply because I can go down to my local electronics store, buy one, and get a warranty.  This is my choice, so please don't comment rudely or hatefully if our opinions differ!  One day (likely soon). there will be a software alternative for getting a more authentic look.  Until then, I feel that an LCD monitor is an acceptable substitute for a CRT model.

This was what I was intending to express in my first post, and I apologize that it didn't come off as I meant for it to.

[boardjunkie]

LCD (or whatever computer monitor) is surely the easiest way to get things up and running fast. Up until fairly recently, that was the only way to use MAME. But it was always a comprimise  as far as pix quality/integrity....especially for "vintage" games.  Now that those clever people have come up with ways to trick a computer into "talking" to a std res monitor, there is the option to have all those "vintage" games look just like they did when you played them in the arcade 30 years ago. Just like the newest PC game would look bad on a std res monitor, older games look bad on a high res monitor. Thats all I'm saying....

[Jack Burton]

This has basically descended into the new vs vintage argument you see all over the internet.

One of my friends is a musician.  He searches all over the state for vintage amps that use vacuum tubes.  He likes the sound they produce.

One of his friends has a brand new amp that has the ability to emulate(!) the sound of the old amps. 

My friend tries to explain to his friend that it's just not the same.  But his friend just says he can't tell much of a difference and doesn't want to go to all the trouble anyway.  My friend heaves a heavy sigh and moves on. 

As I believe I will from this thread. 

[boardjunkie]

Just FYI, there's more tube amps in production now than there was in the 60s. Why? Because they *sound good*.

All that Line6 (and the like) digital modelling claims to reproduce the character of several tube amps, but any player worth their salt knows they fall short. Serious players view that sort of thing as a toy that does 10,000 things but not one thing *well*.

[ItzMR2u]

CRT v LCD I say whatever makes you happy do it!  But, there's talk in here about when my CRT dies I'll do this or that. Well, I still have 2 27" CRT's, a JVC in my room and a Sharp in my cab and they're both from the 80's and still work fantastic!  Maybe it's because they were both made in Japan I don't know but I bet they'll still be working when the LCD's being put in cabs now die as I have yet to see these last very many years unlike the old reliable CRT!

I am going to be in the LED/LCD camp soon though as I'm planning on building a pinball machine and that's the only option for that from what I've seen!  I still worry about longevity of these though.

[wizkid32]

Just another thought.  There is one other convincing reason to go CRT, and that is viewing angle.  LCD/Flatscreen monitors often have small viewing angles, so you have to be sitting right in front of them.  You can't see the image if you look at any other angle.  This is much less of a problem with newer monitors, however, but you should still keep it in mind.

[Gray_Area]

Just FYI, there's more tube amps in production now than there was in the 60s. Why? Because they *sound good*.

All that Line6 (and the like) digital modelling claims to reproduce the character of several tube amps, but any player worth their salt knows they fall short. Serious players view that sort of thing as a toy that does 10,000 things but not one thing *well*.

Just another thought.  There is one other convincing reason to go CRT, and that is viewing angle.  LCD/Flatscreen monitors often have small viewing angles, so you have to be sitting right in front of them.  You can't see the image if you look at any other angle.  This is much less of a problem with newer monitors, however, but you should still keep it in mind.

Lots of talk on that already. SIPS and stuff I can't remember the names of.

[wizkid32]

Just another thought.  There is one other convincing reason to go CRT, and that is viewing angle.  LCD/Flatscreen monitors often have small viewing angles, so you have to be sitting right in front of them.  You can't see the image if you look at any other angle.  This is much less of a problem with newer monitors, however, but you should still keep it in mind.

Lots of talk on that already. SIPS and stuff I can't remember the names of.

Not trying to rehash, just summarize my views.

[Paul Olson]

I was looking around over at mameworld's forums, and it looks like we are going to have nice artwork for the widescreen LCDs soon. These are supposed to into the next release.

http://www.cooleywire.com/jimmyh/mame/artwork.html

[Spacedueler]

My major issue is I can't get some games to use more of the screen.  E.g. Williams games like Joust and Robotron wind up taking up a small box in the middle of the screen.  I realize this is due to scaling the resolution up but I would think it should be able to be done so that it uses the full height of the screen.  Anyone know how to work around this?

That's what I get if I use bezel artwork with those games - is that possibly your case? If you're using artwork try running the game without it and see if there's any change.

[wizkid32]

My major issue is I can't get some games to use more of the screen.  E.g. Williams games like Joust and Robotron wind up taking up a small box in the middle of the screen.  I realize this is due to scaling the resolution up but I would think it should be able to be done so that it uses the full height of the screen.  Anyone know how to work around this?

I have had no such problems on my 20"  LED monitor.  On the topic of aspect ratios, some monitors (like mine) offer a hardware solution.  Mine can be switched from 16:9 to 4:3 with the touch of a single illuminated key!  This is accomplished by the usual black bars, but is handy none the less!

[Gray_Area]

This whole black bar nonsense amuses me. 'We must be missin somethin thar cuz the whole screen ain't filled by this here original video game picture'.

[Howard_Casto]

This whole black bar nonsense amuses me. 'We must be missin somethin thar cuz the whole screen ain't filled by this here original video game picture'.

Heh yeah... people are dumb.  A 27 inch 16:9 display is NOT the same size as a 27 inch 4:3 display if you are running games at 4:3.  The equivelent screen size is much smaller.  Then again, stretching the image to fill the screen doesn't make the image larger, it makes it fatter.

IMHO 16:9 displays are not well suited for arcade cabinets unless it's a showcase cab or you are one of those goofs who want to look at a streched out, distorted screen. 

On the other hand 16:10 display's are pretty brilliant.  I got a 27 inch hanns g for xmas for 220 bucks (I know because I had to order my own xmas present ).  Because it is 16:10 there is almost no wasted space on the screen.  Now the equivelent screen size is slightly smaller... it is more like 25 inches instead of 27, BUT my cab is MK-based, and they only had 25 inch monitors in them anyway.  Now you have to use some screen filters on the thing, that's a given, but other than that I can't say enough good things!

I think for mame cabs in regards to using lcds, the 27 inch 16:10 is the sweet spot for a "traditional" cabinet but if you are using a showcase cab  the sky is the limit and you can even use 16:9 lcds as you have the room to install a much larger monitor.  Remember a lot of the showcase cabs used rear-projection tvs anyway. 

[wizkid32]

you are one of those goofs who want to look at a streched out, distorted screen.

You eventually get used to it, and it's not really all that distorted.

This will probably anger some purists but I agree...(Waits for fire to come down from the sky to burn him up.)

[one8seven]

you are one of those goofs who want to look at a streched out, distorted screen.

You eventually get used to it, and it's not really all that distorted.

What monitor is that? (brand/type)

[Le Chuck]

I'm pretty sure that's a Vizio given that Vizio is written in white letters.

[Le Chuck]

I like how you're getting your ass whooped for the sake of getting a pic 

[ed12]

you know at the end of the day
it's all fine and nice to say ppl are goffy for wanting change :tube-lcd:
but u might want to grow up and suck it up
find a yoke for a crt..? find a pix tube for same ?
unless u have a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- load of time on your hand's
and can search internet for countless hour's ?
u are ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of luck,unless u have stock
but of course u would be deleting your stock and then u will need
to refill it...humm how much is your time worth
pennies i guess

where i perfer to go :goffy: road and new tech it
why?
i make money and do not lose it

think about it


ed

[jimmy2x2x]

you know at the end of the day
it's all fine and nice to say ppl are goffy for wanting change :tube-lcd:
but u might want to grow up and suck it up
find a yoke for a crt..? find a pix tube for same ?
unless u have a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- load of time on your hand's
and can search internet for countless hour's ?
u are ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of luck,unless u have stock
but of course u would be deleting your stock and then u will need
to refill it...humm how much is your time worth
pennies i guess

where i perfer to go :goffy: road and new tech it
why?
i make money and do not lose it

think about it


ed

Ed, I am thinking about and I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Your time is not well spent finding a good CRT and you are happy to compromise by using LCD technology?

[ed12]

no jimmy
not at all
i perfer crt to lcd and i hate plasma
but aside i live in a real world
ie the boss dose not pay u if the game dose not go out and make money
simple comcept as it is,but it is

ed

[Gray_Area]

no jimmy
not at all
i perfer crt to lcd and i hate plasma
but aside i live in a real world
ie the boss dose not pay u if the game dose not go out and make money
simple comcept as it is,but it is

ed

I prefer the plasma I've seen to the LCD I've seen. My neighbor has a recent-model 56" Samsung that just blows my mind. 1080p is just fine for detail, colors and contrast are great, and deflection angle rocks.

[ed12]

has anyone even looked at happ control's ?
300.00+ for a crt
try finding a 19",good luck
try finding a yoke",good luck
try finding a flyback for a neotech.good luck >2701<
even itsgaming on there newest realses are putting out the complete
golden tee live with a 42" lcd,that my friend's is a mfg telling u crt has met it's time,sure u can by a asian crt,chassic >in-bulk<
but then we are back to $$$$ verus your time engery cost's
so get the point.....
i love crt's alway's have alway's will,same with tube amp's etc
but is but in the real world
as i stated i do not get paid because the machine has a broken monitor
nor do i get paid to warehouse new 1's
that my friend is just bad business
my best interest is to switch them out to lcd
this will make a few thing happen
a=machine is fixed
b=i get paid
c=coustmer is happy
so where is head ?
ed

[alfonzotan]

HLSL has been in MAME for 2 release cycles thus far, since .143. The latest MAME .144 has a stable and dependable implementation of the HLSL additions. Avoid the .143b release, its buggy. If you compile, you want .143u8 or higher.

Is the stable 0.143 version okay?  The ROM update for 0.144 is horrendous-huge by comparison, just as soon not go through another re-sort of my romset if I don't have to.

[Paul Olson]

That would be the .143b that was warned against. You would need to compile your own with the u updates to u8 or higher.

[Gray_Area]

I do wonder how much I'll actually use the 3D stuff, but I wouldn't even consider a TV without it these days. 
 

I don't really care for 3D movies.....

[Richard_Nixon]

I don't really care for 3D movies.....

How about 3d gaming?

Also, I've read many times that 3d capable tvs put out a better 2d picture than thier non 3d capable counterparts.

[wizkid32]

I don't really care for 3D movies.....

How about 3d gaming?

Also, I've read many times that 3d capable tvs put out a better 2d picture than thier non 3d capable counterparts.

That may be true...  Whilst I don't use the 3D much, I do like to have it, in case I want it some day.   

[MonMotha]

Also, I've read many times that 3d capable tvs put out a better 2d picture than thier non 3d capable counterparts.

This isn't due to the 3D.  Most TVs that feature 3D support are somewhat higher models and have better panels.  The 3D support (for models using active shutter glasses) is just an emitter (IR or RF) to sync the glasses up and maybe a couple pairs of glasses thrown in the box.  Otherwise, it's just a plain ol' 120Hz TV capable of accepting 120Hz input (if flagged as 3D).

The models that use polarization tricks for their 3D may actually suffer when doing 2D, depending on how it's implemented.

[Richard_Nixon]

Also, I've read many times that 3d capable tvs put out a better 2d picture than thier non 3d capable counterparts.

This isn't due to the 3D.  Most TVs that feature 3D support are somewhat higher models and have better panels.  The 3D support (for models using active shutter glasses) is just an emitter (IR or RF) to sync the glasses up and maybe a couple pairs of glasses thrown in the box.  Otherwise, it's just a plain ol' 120Hz TV capable of accepting 120Hz input (if flagged as 3D).

Thats what I meant. Not the fact that it is 3D alone, but because it is usually found in higher end models.

As for the Hz thing. Its the tv that converts it up to 120Hz(or above). Video sources (that I know of) only put out @ 60Hz.

[MonMotha]

Conventional TV sources are (at best) ~60Hz (59.94 in former NTSC land, 50.00 in former PAL land).  Movies are 24 fps.  A lot of TV is also interlaced, so you have to do something about that, and you'll end up with, at best, ~60fps as a result of that process.  If you turn on the "120Hz mode", yes, it just upconverts.  It's also handy if you feed the TV a native 24p signal for a movie, since 24 evenly divides 120 (but not 60), so you can avoid a 3:2 pulldown.

Computers, however, can easily do 120Hz refresh rates (and even higher - let me assure you that 160Hz just looks wrong, too, as it's TOO smooth).  Most TVs won't accept it if you just naively set your PC to 120Hz and hook the cable up, but if you instead tell the TV that you're sending it a "3D" signal that isn't actually 3D (it's just a chain of progressive frames at 120Hz) and don't bother putting on the glasses, you can get 120Hz refresh out of a lot of modern 3D-capable TVs.  Handy little trick.  You may have to adjust whether left or right comes before/after the other since some TVs do it in different orders from others.  Obviously this only works on TVs with shutter glasses, not passive polarized glasses.

[Gray_Area]

I don't really care for 3D movies.....

How about 3d gaming?

Nope. There are a select few polygon games frome the 90s I play, but I tend to display them at 15khz/software scanlines, for example, Golden Tee '97. (I don't play any 'sports' games.)

[supadave]

Boy did i drag up an old topic.. 

IMHO 16:9 displays are not well suited for arcade cabinets unless it's a showcase cab or you are one of those goofs who want to look at a stretched out, distorted screen.  

Just because you have a 16x9 doesn't mean your picture will be stretched out. you can set the Mame config to maintain correct aspect ratio for games and therefore it will just put black bars around the 4:3 games and the vertical games too. It's a much larger black bar around the vertical games obviously but at least it's all in correct proportion. I have a 42" and the bars do not bother me one bit. I don't really even notice them. I also use the scanline filters to help with the pixelation. No it's not perfect like a tube but it is much easier to deal with. Some things do look good stretched like the Hyperspin menu and some newer emulators. The advantage I've found is gaming outside of Mame. PC games, and newer emulators.  It's all still just a matter of preference. Tubes look good if you have a good one, and LCD's IMO work to if done right.  

[MTPPC]

you are one of those goofs who want to look at a streched out, distorted screen.

You eventually get used to it, and it's not really all that distorted.

This will probably anger some purists but I agree...(Waits for fire to come down from the sky to burn him up.)

That's just because you are used to looking in the mirror.

[MacGyver]

I fully understand why the industry is switching to LCDs, power consumption, lead-free, weight during shipping, definition, yada yada...  I just want to know why an LCD company hasn't picked up on the idea that there are whole industries out there that need a 4:3 form-factor?  There should be at least one manufacturer that makes large 29" 4:3 LCDs for drop-in replacements, in fact they should offer all established CRT sizes in bare LCDs.  There are companies out there that sell just about everything you can think of, except large 4:3 LCDs.  16:9 are swell for watching movies, but there are places where a 4:3 makes more sense, and would be a better fit from a design point of view, aircraft for one, wooden arcade cabinets for a second, anything with a complicated control panel that has monitors stuck in it. 
Why is there not one manufacture that is a one-stop shop for all kinds of crazy exotic sized LCDs (I don't mean cut ones)? I'm talking 1:1, 4:1, and yes, even 4:3.

Side note, does anyone have a complete list of games that do not work with hlsl, ie. the taito 3d ones.  I'm currently having to create separate .inis without scanlines by hand as I find them? I am using 0.145.

[ed12]

there is a crap load of drop in replacement's to have
with or with out mounting hardware
happ control's/neham displays to name a few
a little google here goe's along way
but i do get the :edit: .ini point
were i have to say
if the mame ppl did not want u to beable to :tweak-it: the would not have hard coded in the .ini,it would have been a .dll,try editing 1 of them critter's
so the ---smurfette--- about editing is just utter rubish to me
olny thing i find with lcd's,is there contrast and :edge: smothing we all like
with crt's

ed

[Gray_Area]

I fully understand why the industry is switching to LCDs, power consumption, lead-free, weight during shipping, definition, yada yada...  I just want to know why an LCD company hasn't picked up on the idea that there are whole industries out there that need a 4:3 form-factor?  There should be at least one manufacturer that makes large 29" 4:3 LCDs for drop-in replacements, in fact they should offer all established CRT sizes in bare LCDs.  There are companies out there that sell just about everything you can think of, except large 4:3 LCDs.  16:9 are swell for watching movies, but there are places where a 4:3 makes more sense, and would be a better fit from a design point of view, aircraft for one, wooden arcade cabinets for a second, anything with a complicated control panel that has monitors stuck in it.

Haven't you seen Farenheith 451?  The world is finally catching up.

Why is there not one manufacture that is a one-stop shop for all kinds of crazy exotic sized LCDs (I don't mean cut ones)? I'm talking 1:1, 4:1, and yes, even 4:3.

3D printers can't do electronics yet.