So I made a Coin Manager...

[ArcadeRenegade]

Hey guys first of all. Awesome site. Seriously. This site was clutch in helping me complete my arcade cabinet and I couldn't have finished it without the help of your tutorials and forums. Mad respect.

Let me give you guys a little background. Recently I decided to revamp my 4 year old cabinet with a new paint job, better software, more intuitive controls, etc. I decided in order help make my arcade feel like more legitimate and complete, I'd put in coin slots. Which worked out great except for that fact that people are dumb (specifically my roommates' friends who came over to hang out and didn't get briefed on how to use the arcade) and don't know to wait for MAME to finish loading before putting in tokens.

So I scripted a Coin Manager program to let people put in coins in the frontend. It's nothing special as I just scripted it using AutoHotkey but I'm still particularly proud of it.

I know there has been a lot of controversy with these coin management programs in the past because they may propagate commercial use of MAME. From what I remember I saw two different instances of this.

Anyways, I want your opinion if I should or should not do a private release and help people like me who want a better way to manage coinage. I figure I people could send me a tell and somehow prove that their arcade is for personal use only (however I'm not sure how to completely verify such a thing).

It keeps track of P1 and P2 coins. Has a GUI overlay. And is completely customizable. And also has some misc. additions like support for a free play switch, run game on P1 & P2 start when in frontend, and allow gamelist scrolling with the P2 stick.

Let me know yay or nay. Also, If I'm out of line here then delete this thread. I just wanted to help out in any way I could.

Edit:  Send me a tell if you want to try the first release version. Just be aware that you'll have to do a source code edit and recompile MAME to get authotkey scripts to work properly.  

[Well Fed Games]

Yes, release it. In a perfect world, the GUI would be completely hide-able, and the font used could be user-specified. Some folks may complain, but this is no different than a hi-score patch or a no-nag tweak... it makes the cabinet better for hobbyists. Heck, some people would complain about me putting a spinner on a Ms. Pac Cab... but I did it anyway, and it is awesome. Don't let haters keep you from being creative. I would love to see such software released and supported. 

[DaveMMR]

Similar programs have been released before (I apologize I don't have the member names of the programmers at this moment) and it caused a tremendous uproar.

It's not about "haters" (as thefearsomefearful states). There was general concern that the program can make it easier for those using MAME illegally in a commercial setting. As to whether or not those concerns are valid is a matter of opinion. But after the dust settled, the authors of previous credit managers have made them unavailable due to these controversies.

Personally, I'd like a credit manager on my cab (it's home use) so I hope yours can be released unscathed.

[Donkbaca]

That would be great!

[Howard_Casto]

Similar programs have been released before (I apologize I don't have the member names of the programmers at this moment) and it caused a tremendous uproar.

It's not about "haters" (as thefearsomefearful states). There was general concern that the program can make it easier for those using MAME illegally in a commercial setting. As to whether or not those concerns are valid is a matter of opinion. But after the dust settled, the authors of previous credit managers have made them unavailable due to these controversies.

Personally, I'd like a credit manager on my cab (it's home use) so I hope yours can be released unscathed.

 

There are like three or four, but they are only available if you personally request it from the authors.  This is so they can keep track of who has it in the event of shennanigans. 

Technically speaking anything that read mame cfgs and/or mame outputs could do this.  So of my stuff could do it.  But I'll never tell. 

It's a great idea though and you should use it.  I would just be careful about how you post it. 

[Well Fed Games]

It's not about "haters" (as thefearsomefearful states).

It is, though... each of those programmers had a good idea, and then because people hated the result (without, in my opinion, rational reasons-- such as examples of it being used in illegal machines, or people stating their intent to do so) the creators pulled back and back until it was behind a wall of "PM me for info" or "show me your project thread." The best way for this kind of software to be refined is for it to be unrestricted; a no-nag patch would certainly add "value" to an illegal coin operated machine, but there are no hoops to jump through to download that.

I am all for walking the straight and narrow- see my posts on topics such as piracy... I fully agree things like this should be used responsibly. But a good (and) bad about this forum is that people's opinions generally get listened to. I just hope that before people dump on ArcadeRenegade's idea, they think through the ramifications of squashing good ideas. It is not a huge deal- I would use it on my home machine if it existed, as I love the aesthetic of using actual coins, but I can certainly wait the 5 seconds for the rom tests and such-  but reading through the threads on similar software really bummed me out. Sorry for the wall of text! 

[Haze]

Similar programs have been released before (I apologize I don't have the member names of the programmers at this moment) and it caused a tremendous uproar.

It's not about "haters" (as thefearsomefearful states). There was general concern that the program can make it easier for those using MAME illegally in a commercial setting. As to whether or not those concerns are valid is a matter of opinion. But after the dust settled, the authors of previous credit managers have made them unavailable due to these controversies.

Personally, I'd like a credit manager on my cab (it's home use) so I hope yours can be released unscathed.

You've only got to pull apart some of the xxx-in-1 boards to see that the concerns are valid.  Many of them are using exactly this kind of background thing to inject coins into MAME.

[DaveMMR]

It's not about "haters" (as thefearsomefearful states).

It is, though... each of those programmers had a good idea, and then because people hated the result (without, in my opinion, rational reasons-- such as examples of it being used in illegal machines, or people stating their intent to do so) the creators pulled back and back until it was behind a wall of "PM me for info" or "show me your project thread." The best way for this kind of software to be refined is for it to be unrestricted; a no-nag patch would certainly add "value" to an illegal coin operated machine, but there are no hoops to jump through to download that.

I am all for walking the straight and narrow- see my posts on topics such as piracy... I fully agree things like this should be used responsibly. But a good (and) bad about this forum is that people's opinions generally get listened to. I just hope that before people dump on ArcadeRenegade's idea, they think through the ramifications of squashing good ideas. It is not a huge deal- I would use it on my home machine if it existed, as I love the aesthetic of using actual coins, but I can certainly wait the 5 seconds for the rom tests and such-  but reading through the threads on similar software really bummed me out. Sorry for the wall of text!  

I never really got in the middle of these debates about credit managers but you're making it sound like there's a conspiracy again programmers who make front end tools to make a home arcade cabinet appear more authentic. Without defending or countering MAME's stance on tools, their best interest is to prevent unauthorized use of MAME for commercial purposes. If it gets out of control, the hammer could come down on them hard from the likes of Nintendo, Sega, etc.

I think the "no nag" patch gets a pass because it doesn't deal with the coins. What, in my mind, gets MAME Devs worried is the whole "money" aspect of such a tool. With it, operators don't have to worry about people thinking the game is broken when they drop a token in the menu, start a game and have zero credits.

But it's not like they "hate" on it for no good reason. I'm sure a few of them even liked it. But they're expressing concerns to protect themselves and the overall MAME project.

For the record: I'm not trying to detract the OP from releasing it. Heck, send me a link if and when it is. But I'm not starting a debate about the good or bad that comes with the program, only offering up warning based on what had happened in the past.

[abispac]

Yes, release it. In a perfect world, the GUI would be completely hide-able, and the font used could be user-specified. Some folks may complain, but this is no different than a hi-score patch or a no-nag tweak... it makes the cabinet better for hobbyists. Heck, some people would complain about me putting a spinner on a Ms. Pac Cab... but I did it anyway, and it is awesome. Don't let haters keep you from being creative. I would love to see such software released and supported.  

i agree   and if you decide to release'it or share'it, then send me a pm. I just created a cocktail cab with hyperspin and the vertical themes from jeepguy81, and it looks just perfect, somenthing like this would be awsome as some folks dont have an idea that you need to choose the game first then insert the coin, so when im not around and my son brings some friends over, sometimes they loose a coin or 2, and i dont give my son the door key  . So in my opinion, yes you should release that on a private basis with some kind of hobbist proof.

[ArcadeRenegade]

Similar programs have been released before (I apologize I don't have the member names of the programmers at this moment) and it caused a tremendous uproar.

It's not about "haters" (as thefearsomefearful states). There was general concern that the program can make it easier for those using MAME illegally in a commercial setting. As to whether or not those concerns are valid is a matter of opinion. But after the dust settled, the authors of previous credit managers have made them unavailable due to these controversies.

Personally, I'd like a credit manager on my cab (it's home use) so I hope yours can be released unscathed.

 

There are like three or four, but they are only available if you personally request it from the authors.  This is so they can keep track of who has it in the event of shennanigans.  

Technically speaking anything that read mame cfgs and/or mame outputs could do this.  So of my stuff could do it.  But I'll never tell.  

It's a great idea though and you should use it.  I would just be careful about how you post it.  

Yea I was reading up on the discussion between you and headkaze on how to write programs that read and communicate with the output window but it was too confusing for me     I was an novice stuck in C+ programming hell.

So I went the EZ route and scripted it in autohotkey.

Anyways, I finally finished up a polished up release version. I'll attach the screenshots.

I'll tread lightly but send me a message if you want to try it out.

Be aware that you will have to edit some of MAME's source code and recompile for the hotkey scripts to work.

Also, on an irrelevant note, check out my revamped cab. Pretty sick eh?

[Well Fed Games]

but you're making it sound like there's a conspiracy again programmers

Dude, I think we are on the same side.  I am sorry you read it that way... that is not at all what I am saying. What I am saying is this:

In my opinion, although I understand the concerns people bring up with this sort of thing (I have read all the threads), I don't think the concerns warrant limiting the development or distribution of such software. I can explain my reasoning more but it would just result in another "wall of text" post about stuff that is not relevant to this thread.

In my opinion, when such debates happened in the past (before my time on these forums), the naysayers won. I would love to see what happens if they didn't when the conversation comes up again.

All that said, I have never been able to figure out compiling, so this particular tool won't be as useful to me. But thanks for making it available, ArcadeRenegade. 

[Haze]

I think the "no nag" patch gets a pass because it doesn't deal with the coins. What, in my mind, gets MAME Devs worried is the whole "money" aspect of such a tool. With it, operators don't have to worry about people thinking the game is broken when they drop a token in the menu, start a game and have zero credits.

The coin management stuff is disliked because it basically serves little purpose than allowing commercial use.

The no-nag stuff is still a problem, you still get idiots like kmhamel here who almost exclusively talk about such patches here and elsewhere and then decide to go on a bug posting rampage on Mametesters with false reports over things already covered by the screens said 'no nag' patches remove.
http://www.mametesters.org/view.php?id=4463

This only serves to waste peoples time, there are only a couple of people doing mametesters, and their time is strictly limited.

The couple of 'please do not do this' items requested by mamedev are all fair and reasonable things to request imho.

[Donkbaca]

Yeahm the mame dev regs, what few of them there are, generally seem reasonable.  Most of them seem aimed at the "don't be a pain in the ass to us" sort of vein.  The no-nag thing isn't discouraged, its distributing MAME with no-nag that is discouraged, from what I understand, so that people don't do exactly what Haze was talking about. 

I think if you had it as a seperate patch, where someone had to compile MAME themselves to use it, it wouldn't be a problem, but if you started distributing builds of MAME with it already included, that would definitely ruffle some feathers.

[Thenasty]

I have read things about Coin Manager and the controversies.
I did not get involve in any discussions.

If someone really want to rig up a machine for commercial/profit use,  they can do it..period.

Even in Advmame in pure DOS could be done.

Remember how the original Machines behave when the power is lost ?

Well it rejects the coins when inserted due to power loss.

All they have to do is use the COIN SOLENOID (forgot the exact name) that is attach in the COIN MECH.

When power is applied, it will let you COIN UP, but when power is lost, it REJECT all coins inserted.

This is done by just applying or removing the voltage applied to the SOLENOID (when you're in the FE,  no power to SOLENOID, when game is selected and executed, Power is restored to the SOLENOID).

Not gonna go in more details. You guys can picture/figure the rest of this BLA BLA BLA BLA....

[DaveMMR]

but you're making it sound like there's a conspiracy again programmers

Dude, I think we are on the same side.  I am sorry you read it that way... that is not at all what I am saying. What I am saying is this:

No, I figured we were on the same side here. But the way I read "haters" is that there was much discouragement from MAME Devs with little to no reason. Just wanted to clarify their derision instead of making them seem "narrow minded" (which is how I associate the slang usage of "haters").

But yeah, we are more or less in agreement.

[abispac]

not working for me, i allready compiled 3 times and im pretty sure im doing it right, i have tested outside the FE and it does not work as well.So i looked at the readme file and i dont understand this

That should do it. Autohotkey scripts should now work
with your version of MAME if they use their hotkey
codes like this:
Send {Blind} {%Key% Down}
Sleep 50
Send {Blind} {%Key% Up}

So i wonder if i should do somenthing ealse like installing autohotkey or modifiyng somenthing ealse in the mame code. Thanks for any help. Im using mame 130 by te way

[Popcorrin]

I have read things about Coin Manager and the controversies.
I did not get involve in any discussions.

If someone really want to rig up a machine for commercial/profit use,  they can do it..period.

Even in Advmame in pure DOS could be done.

Remember how the original Machines behave when the power is lost ?

Well it rejects the coins when inserted due to power loss.

All they have to do is use the COIN SOLENOID (forgot the exact name) that is attach in the COIN MECH.

When power is applied, it will let you COIN UP, but when power is lost, it REJECT all coins inserted.

This is done by just applying or removing the voltage applied to the SOLENOID (when you're in the FE,  no power to SOLENOID, when game is selected and executed, Power is restored to the SOLENOID).

Not gonna go in more details. You guys can picture/figure the rest of this BLA BLA BLA BLA....

Yea, I did exactly what you describe a few years back just for the hell of it.  It worked pretty well, a certain derivative of mame made all the difference.  Not always easy to find coin mechs with the solenoids though.

[ArcadeRenegade]

not working for me, i allready compiled 3 times and im pretty sure im doing it right, i have tested outside the FE and it does not work as well.So i looked at the readme file and i dont understand this

That should do it. Autohotkey scripts should now work
with your version of MAME if they use their hotkey
codes like this:
Send {Blind} {%Key% Down}
Sleep 50
Send {Blind} {%Key% Up}

So i wonder if i should do somenthing ealse like installing autohotkey or modifiyng somenthing ealse in the mame code. Thanks for any help. Im using mame 130 by te way

If I'm not mistaken, AutoHotkey scripts should work with MAME v0.130 if you change the code in %mamesrc%\src\osd\windows\input.c

#define FORCE_DIRECTINPUT      0

to

#define FORCE_DIRECTINPUT      1

If that doesn't work try also changing,

      // initialize RawInput and DirectInput (RawInput first so we can fall back)
      rawinput_init(machine);
      dinput_init(machine);
      win32_init(machine);

to

      // initialize DirectInput and RawInput (DirectInput first so we can fall back)
      dinput_init(machine);
      rawinput_init(machine);
      win32_init(machine);

The "Send {Blind} {%Key% Down}" code has to do with AutoHotkey scripts; not for MAME. You shouldn't need to install Autohotkey either.

Open notepad and test the hotkeys. Lets say your "Start Game/MAME" keybind is "P" it should be typing " p " into notepad.

Note that most keys (like P1 and P2 start) aren't scripted do anything unless MAME is the active window. Also the Coin_Slot1 and Coin_Slot2 keybinds don't send out any keys.  Therefore, they won't type out anything.
 
What frontend are you using? I've only tested this with MALA.

[abispac]

Im using hyperspin, and it gives me some problems if im trying to use with it too, but when i try outside the FE it does not work as well, let me download mame .143 source and compile that again, im pretty sure im changin all that needs to be change, so lets hope its just a mame version thing, ill come back with the results.

[ArcadeRenegade]

Im using hyperspin, and it gives me some problems if im trying to use with it too, but when i try outside the FE it does not work as well, let me download mame .143 source and compile that again, im pretty sure im changin all that needs to be change, so lets hope its just a mame version thing, ill come back with the results.

I don't think the problem is on your end. It's my poor scripting 

I edited the way hotkeys are sent so they're more compatible with Hyperspin and older versions of MAME.
I'll send you the new version.

[Hunk_4TH]

You have my full support on this! I sent you a PM. Does this work with GameEx? It's what I use on my cab.

[abispac]

I compiled another version of maame, .143 and still dosnt work. I know this is not something that you have the obligation to do, but here are a couple of thougts:
It should work with and without the front end and it needs to have the avilty to work in the background, as having a fully dedicated mame cabinet with a front end and mame working on windowed mode, kills the arcade experince a bit. Thanks for reading and hope this dosnt die.

[headkaze]

I wrote a little program a while ago called CoinDrop which has been updated privately. I don't release it to the public in respect to the MAMEDev wishes. Anyway I've tried to focus the program on coin management for kids rather than make it practical for use in a commercial setting. That is why it has features like limiting credits and game play and inserting credits after x amount of minutes. My personal belief is it's too unreliable to work it in a commercial setting anyway as it's possible to lose credits when you try to insert them when a game isn't ready to accept them and that would piss off customers.

It has some pretty nifty features like the ability to output the number of credits to a Com or Printer Port. It also can insert credits into MAME without the need to compile a custom version.

[Well Fed Games]

I don't release it to the public in respect to the MAMEDev wishes.

What does that mean exactly? Just for you or just not posted openly? Because, I think it is awesome and would put it to good use. The 2006 thread ended with "This program is no longer supported. Please do not PM me anymore. I will be locking this thread. Sorry.," so I am assuming the first. If there is a way to obtain it, let me know.

[ArcadeRenegade]

Well I was about to compile the new version that fixed the compatability issues, then my computer had to plummet 15 feet off the porch. No joke.

Ill see if I can retrieve the source code from the hard drive.

[amendonz]

nothing wrong with releasing stuff like this i say, most dodgy ops are using XX in 1's nowadays anyway.

[Haze]

nothing wrong with releasing stuff like this i say, most dodgy ops are using XX in 1's nowadays anyway.

Which are based on this kind of stuff..

With the advent of MAME compiler, I'm even against people really posting source patches for the nonag stuff as it means you're more or less distributing binaries due to compiling becoming a complete no-brainer.

Ask any member of the development team and you'll get the same response, especially over coin management stuff.  That response is 'please don't do that', which is what some members are being respectful towards here.

We're not asking a lot.

[abispac]

 that sucks....hope you get all of your info, not just that, unless youll had nothing important. good luck. 

Well I was about to compile the new version that fixed the compatability issues, then my computer had to plummet 15 feet off the porch. No joke.

Ill see if I can retrieve the source code from the hard drive.

[headkaze]

Thanks for making it clear the POV of MAMEDev Haze. Saves me explaining it or getting into debates about right and wrong. I don't release CoinDrop publicly because MAMEDev don't like it. Simple as that.

[Well Fed Games]

Thanks for making it clear the POV of MAMEDev Haze. Saves me explaining it or getting into debates about right and wrong. I don't release CoinDrop publicly because MAMEDev don't like it. Simple as that.

So, that is a no, coindrop is totally unavailable?

[abispac]

Thanks for making it clear the POV of MAMEDev Haze. Saves me explaining it or getting into debates about right and wrong. I don't release CoinDrop publicly because MAMEDev don't like it. Simple as that.

So, that is a no, coindrop is totally unavailable?

[Well Fed Games]

Thanks for making it clear the POV of MAMEDev Haze. Saves me explaining it or getting into debates about right and wrong. I don't release CoinDrop publicly because MAMEDev don't like it. Simple as that.

So, that is a no, coindrop is totally unavailable?

Nevermind.

[ArcadeRenegade]

that sucks....hope you get all of your info, not just that, unless youll had nothing important. good luck. 

Well I was about to compile the new version that fixed the compatability issues, then my computer had to plummet 15 feet off the porch. No joke.

Ill see if I can retrieve the source code from the hard drive.

I fixed my computer and compiled the new version that should work with Hyperspin and MAME 0.130

I'll send you the new version.

[Howard_Casto]

Thanks for making it clear the POV of MAMEDev Haze. Saves me explaining it or getting into debates about right and wrong. I don't release CoinDrop publicly because MAMEDev don't like it. Simple as that.

What he said. 

The MAME community gives us a whole heck of a lot to play with and they really only have three rules for us to follow:

1.  If you publically release a mame variant, please release the source as well.
2.  Don't try to sell MAME, a MAME variant, or include MAME with a commercial product.
3.  Don't modify MAME in such a way that it would make it easier to run on said commercial product and otherwise offer no real benefit. 

For me, this has always seemed reasonable, and I try to go by it. 

[ArcadeRenegade]

Thanks for making it clear the POV of MAMEDev Haze. Saves me explaining it or getting into debates about right and wrong. I don't release CoinDrop publicly because MAMEDev don't like it. Simple as that.

What he said. 

The MAME community gives us a whole heck of a lot to play with and they really only have three rules for us to follow:

1.  If you publically release a mame variant, please release the source as well.
2.  Don't try to sell MAME, a MAME variant, or include MAME with a commercial product.
3.  Don't modify MAME in such a way that it would make it easier to run on said commercial product and otherwise offer no real benefit. 

For me, this has always seemed reasonable, and I try to go by it. 

Well if it's any reconciliation, people can't get it to work anyways. >.<

[Vigo]

3.  Don't modify MAME in such a way that it would make it easier to run on said commercial product and otherwise offer no real benefit.  

I'm not trying to stoke fires or anything, but that's the part that I am foggy on. Maybe somebody could clarify what a "real benefit" exactly means. I guess I personally see a bunch of real benefits to having some sort of coin management in the realm of personal use. From tournament playing, parental control and adding ease of use for people who are not familiar with the SW to name a few.

Obviously, front ends are the biggest item that would make commercial use viable. It makes sense that it is an exception because of it's obvious benefit, but if someone dastardly enough to set up a commercial machine tries...they could do so with only the frontend and Mame. All I see coin management is slightly polishing it to look and feel more commercial allowing coins to be put in up front, but it really doesn't do anything to prevent access to the frontend function or booting games without a coin being entered.

Again, I am only asking because my train of thought does not bring me to say this is dangerous software (Unless it really does disallow game booting function without coins inserted). I also understand that the Devs are only trying to protect Mame from misuse and legal issues, and I respect that those people who created this kind of software are acting in interest of the wishes of the Devs. Just looking for clarification.

[Howard_Casto]

There's no real benefit because quarters aren't required to run MAME.

If a user presses the "insert coin" key while in the FE what does it matter?  They are virtual quarters anyway.  Likewise if you are allowing users to literally insert quarters.  Well you are the "operator" you can open teh coin door and get them back for you.  (If you are charging in your own personal home btw.. then you are violating MAME's liscense in terms of not making a profit off of mame.)

The easiest solution to this is to map the coin 1 input to the same button as start 1 and so on....  Then when a user presses start a quarter is inserted and they don't have to worry about it. 

Now is having a working coin door nice for nostalgic purposes?  Absolutely.  Is it particularly practical or even necessary in your own personal gameroom?  Not really


On the flip of the coin (pun intended) can a coin manager be extremely dangerous when it comes to piracy and bootleg arcade machines running mame.  Absolutely! 

Most FE authors (myself included, back in the day)  purposefully leave out a few things like coin managment.  This is specifically to prevent people from selling mame cabs running our fes (which rips us off personally) that are running mame (which rips off the mame team). 

[Vigo]

There's no real benefit because quarters aren't required to run MAME.

Well...arcade cabinets, arcade controls and frontends are not required to run Mame either. I don't see them being frowned upon. Not to mention that coin management SW is not what allows mame to take quarters to begin with. Not making it a point to argue, but it's still unclear to me the distinction between why having additional coin support is not a real benefit to the personal user but most everything else in the hobby is. By that train of thought, why is LED lighting support not rampaged upon? It's entire purpose is to only look cool, and would enable a commercial machine to be more attractive to the passer by. Of course, I see both LED light support and coin management SW as a real benefit to the user. Or are we not talking about real benefit to the user?

Whatever it is, I guess I just see this a real benefit while perhaps the Devs do not. Of course I am not saying the Devs are wrong, I am just saying that I just don't understand it yet.

[Vigo]

Most FE authors (myself included, back in the day)  purposefully leave out a few things like coin managment.  This is specifically to prevent people from selling mame cabs running our fes (which rips us off personally) that are running mame (which rips off the mame team). 

I understand your reasoning for not wanting to have your or any FE ripped off for commercial gain, but I don't understand how not having coin management is the linch pin that stops people from using a FE for those purposes.

Lets say for example I am a devious gent who sets up two commercial machines A and B. Let's say A has a FE that does not detect a coin entered, and B is a FE that detects a coin entered and translates it to Mame upon boot.

Now for machine A, I would have an instruction card that would say "here is how to Pick a game blah blah here is how you enter and leave, once game is fully loaded insert coin."

For Machine B, I would have a similar card, but would have to say, "Heres how to pick a game. blah blah here is how you enter and leave, you may insert coin before or during your selection."

I guess I don't see how that is a dealbreaker that allows commercial use on machine B and not A. Am I missing something about the functionality of this SW? 

[nitz]

I can't speak for the mamedevs, but my feeling is that it's not so much that a lack of coin management software would be a dealbreaker for someone wanting to use mame commercially, but it's maybe just the attitude of "why make it easier for them?"

It's kind of like locking your house door. It's not gonna keep out someone who is hell bent on getting in, but why make it easier for them?

My $0.02.

[Vigo]

That is a sentiment I can fully understand. If conditions are too easy, and a blind eye is turned to programs that create abuse, then bad things do happen. That simple.

Sorry to take it a step backward again, but I really want to put a solid factual definition as to the issue. I'm not trying to debate the ethics, complain about the situation, or argue at all. It's just that when you tread into placing judgement on other peoples works can be allowed and what is deemed unfit to sharing, there really needs to be a solid litmus test. If ArcadeRenegade's program not a danger, I would really love to see it released, not blanket judged out of context because it involves coins. Just the facts, ma'am. 

Going from what Howard posted, the litmus test that it is not fit for distribution is that it must both A: be of no real benefit outside of commercial use. and B: Make it easier to run Mame for commercial benefit.

For A, I still see real benefit. I guess I still need more clarification on what a real benefit is. (see my previous post)

For B, I could easily see how a more powerful version of coin management would benefit commercial use (e.g. locking out game booting until coin is entered), but simple programs like these doesn't seem to offer much commercially, IMHO. I could simply be missing something here though, especially since I never have used a coin mgmt program before.


Sorry, I know I am sounding like a broken record.... 

[Haze]

I guess I don't see how that is a dealbreaker that allows commercial use on machine B and not A. Am I missing something about the functionality of this SW? 

People don't read.

Drunk people, especially don't read.  Alcohol and Arcades go together quite well ;-)

People will put coins in at the frontend, maybe wonder why they got eaten, complain / cause trouble.
People will select a game, put coins in, exit the game, wonder where their coins went, complain / cause trouble.

Arcades need systems which work seamlessly and are idiot proof.  That's why providing such a solution becomes a dealbreaker.

[Vigo]

People don't read.

Drunk people, especially don't read.  Alcohol and Arcades go together quite well ;-)

Well, there is a lot of merit in that point. I'd probably fall in the "don't read" category as well.

Now I think part of my weekend will have to be devoted to seeing what kind of Robotron score I can get drunk. 

[abispac]

Hey heres mi  input.c , i opied all the text in the original file and paste that into a regular text file so you xcar read it here. thanks

[Howard_Casto]

Vigo, you say you "just don't understand" or "are waiting for a clear explaination" but you obviously do, you just don't care for the answers you are getting.

Properly done coin managment is about the only thing keeping operators from just throwing a fe and mame in an arcade cabinet and making a profit.  That is the only reason it is frowned upon while other features are not.  Surely that is crystal clear?

[ArcadeRenegade]

Hey heres mi  input.c , i opied all the text in the original file and paste that into a regular text file so you xcar read it here. thanks

*sigh* here's the edited input.c for 0.143u3 abispac. there's not much else I can do to help you out I've done what I could.

[abispac]

Properly done coin management is about the only thing keeping operators from just throwing a fe and Mame in an arcade cabinet and making a profit.  That is the only reason it is frowned upon while other features are not.  Surely that is crystal clear?

In most Hispanic countries, like Brazil,Chile,Mexico and so , they are filled with tons and tons of Mame cabinets, some still with arcadeos, some with a variation of advancemame that they call BKST master, some with Mala, some with marcianitos.org FE, and now they are upgrading to hyperspin and with the help of good videocards they are adding newer games, hell this guys offers fifa 11

Code: [Select]

http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.mx/MLM-67370470-nuevo-master-multijuegos-5-en-1-version-2011-fifa11-plus-dni-_JM
Ive seen so many of this pirate cabs outhere in  some other countries,they wont stop because they don't have a coin management ,in fact some of the newer cabs are using some usb timed device that you can easy buy from sites like thisone

Code: [Select]

http://www.coin-arcade.com/catalog/i23.html in this way they do not have to worry about coin management, they add all sort of Roms, either Mame,snes,sega,naomi,pc games, they don't care, as its all timed by now, they make more money in that way.

So i think having a coin management proggy its not going to hurt the emu scene more than what it is now, I say its time to see the reality and think a bit different.
On my side i have only one personal cocktail Mame cabinet , and i don't think I'm going to hurt the emu scene , by installing a simple coin management in my cab.

[Haze]

yes, some operators will do it anyway, that's a given.

It doesn't mean making it easier for them, more profitable for them by providing something like this is a good idea.

Remember, most of these operators will be destroying / replacing genuine arcade machines if they think they can get away with running multi-games.  Bastardising existing cabs because they can run more games on them.  Is that what people here REALLY want to see?

I've seen genuine Star Wars vector cabinets converted to run multi-games.....

[abispac]

O Haze, you dont wanna see what ive seen, original pacmans,mr.do's,trons,space invaders,tons of Mk's,rare cabs i cant even remember their names,its horrible.Yesterday i was talking with an operator from Mexico that came here, and i asked him, why wont he buy some original systems with te latest games in it, his response was "Its beacuse they became unprofitable""you see those kind of systems give me a little or non money because kids wont go to the arcades anymore, and in mexico, having a cab or two with an timed multi game xbox or a regular mame multigame in every corner mini store gives me more money than the original newer games, and plus kids this days all they play its kof 2001 and gta san andreas". I did not wanted to continue the conversation as i thought thats was ---fouled up beyond all recognition---'up.

[Vigo]

Vigo, you say you "just don't understand" or "are waiting for a clear explaination" but you obviously do, you just don't care for the answers you are getting.

Properly done coin managment is about the only thing keeping operators from just throwing a fe and mame in an arcade cabinet and making a profit.  That is the only reason it is frowned upon while other features are not.  Surely that is crystal clear?

Actually, I really I don't get it. To my understanding, this software won't make it magically possible for someone to make a commercial machine. It already is equally as possible without it. Haze's point of drunk people who can't read is something I really get, but that is because it is a feature that makes operation easier for users in general. If someone is going to drop coins into an illegal commercial machine, I would think they would be able to do so just the same whether or not there was a program like on it. Like I said before, I can see how a more powerful coin management program could be a issue, but this program seems to be far too straightforward to offer any problematic features.

Is this utility frowned upon as a blanket view on all coin utilities because more powerful coin programs could be made? If that is the case, that that is an answer I can accept. I did not get into this to debate, I am genuinely trying to figure out what the real problem with it is. So far, the best answer I have  is "This is a feature that helps idiots out, and people who would play these illegal commercial games are idiots." an answer that is not quite complete, but I can appreciate it.

I'm not trying to make a ruckus, Sorry. 

[DaveMMR]

Is this utility frowned upon as a blanket view on all coin utilities because more powerful coin programs could be made?

I'd say so. Heck, I'd say presently it'd be powerful enough. Strictly speculation here, but I think the MAME Devs don't endorse the use of actual coins, even for home use. So a program designed for nothing but coin management to work alongside MAME being readily available may make it look, to outside observers, that MAME was designed for bootlegging classic games instead of preserving them.

Yes, there are ways to misuse MAME without the software (low-tech and hi-tech). People can and do use MAME for nefarious purposes. But the devs don't want to be the ones to have given the gun to the criminals. And though I'm sure many will argue that the program itself is enough of a tool to aid the bad guys - keep in mind that MAME, as is, is not designed to be practical in a commercial setting. The warning screens ("This Game Does Not Work Correctly") is one part of that. I'm guessing they don't fight to have the tools for disabling it removed since it's not really there for anti-commercial use, just so people don't bombard them with emails (and if you're familiar enough with MAME to recompile it, you would hopefully know not to email them). The other part is lack of coin management. Defeating that may open up a whole new can of worms.

Truthfully, the fact that 99% of the emulated games would not make enough money in an arcade in this day and age is what probably keeps the heat off of the MAME team. Plus the bar of technical knowledge is just high enough to be discouraging to those who are looking to play Pac-Man for free instead of buying one of the millions of modestly priced versions. But if there was some bizarre resurgence in the popularity of classic coin-ops and millions were being made off of them by unauthorized operators, you'd better believe Sega/Nintendo/Namco/etc. will have the MAME team in their cross-hairs. And they first thing they'd say is "look, they even have a coin manager available to make bootlegging classic games a no-brainer for anyone who wants to make a quick buck!" with little concern about who actually made it.

And to be honest, I would be the one who would like a coin manager if only to add to look and feel of authenticity to my cab. But playing it out in my mind, I have tried and failed to come up with a legitimate defense. Limit plays for your kids? Teach them coins only work in the game. Prevent guests from wasting coins? You should be providing guests with a way of coining up and therefor, is a non-issue. And about that authenticity level? It doesn't add enough to justify it, unfortunately and nobody but me would notice.

[abispac]

Enough with the right or wrong debate, this its somenthing like politics or religion you guys will never get  anywhere.
Now on the other hand, i would like to openly ask for help here to some of the persons whoo might got this coinage proggy (thanks arcaderenegade). Well Arcaderenegade tells me  this proggy its working on his setup, i have tried several diferent ways and i can not get it to work. Hres what ive done:
1.-Compiled MAME with the instructions given on the readme file. I compiled MAME for several purposes and i always get'it right, so im sure this is no eception, you can look here that i have atached the imput.c file i modified, to make sure im doing it right.
2.-so i have tested with hyperspin and outside hyperspin as well, with no luck,tested with windows xp 32 and 64 bit no luck, windows 7 32 and 64 bit no luck, i tried to instal autohotkey,no luck,i tried netframe 12 and 4 no luck.
i placed the coinage.exe on hyperspin autostar feature, that way hyperspin starts and fires coinage.Hyperspin its in window mode, coinage regular windows state,mame regular windows state.Hyperspin starts, i see coinage coin counters, i press 5 and coinage registers the coin, i chose a game, mame opens up,coinage streches the game to full screen, game boots, i press1 and the coinage counter gets back to  0 but mame does not registers the coin, and the same happens if i do outside hyperspin.Mame options are setup to run the game in windowed mode and no mazimise.so i think everything sould work.

So if got the program and are willing to help, dont hide and speak up...thanks for any help .

[ArcadeRenegade]

Woah. I didn't mean to start heated arguements when I made this topic.

Oh the other hand, dance puppets dance  

[ArcadeRenegade]

Enough with the right or wrong debate, this its somenthing like politics or religion you guys will never get  anywhere.
Now on the other hand, i would like to openly ask for help here to some of the persons whoo might got this coinage proggy (thanks arcaderenegade). Well Arcaderenegade tells me  this proggy its working on his setup, i have tried several diferent ways and i can not get it to work. Hres what ive done:
1.-Compiled MAME with the instructions given on the readme file. I compiled MAME for several purposes and i always get'it right, so im sure this is no eception, you can look here that i have atached the imput.c file i modified, to make sure im doing it right.
2.-so i have tested with hyperspin and outside hyperspin as well, with no luck,tested with windows xp 32 and 64 bit no luck, windows 7 32 and 64 bit no luck, i tried to instal autohotkey,no luck,i tried netframe 12 and 4 no luck.
i placed the coinage.exe on hyperspin autostar feature, that way hyperspin starts and fires coinage.Hyperspin its in window mode, coinage regular windows state,mame regular windows state.Hyperspin starts, i see coinage coin counters, i press 5 and coinage registers the coin, i chose a game, mame opens up,coinage streches the game to full screen, game boots, i press1 and the coinage counter gets back to  0 but mame does not registers the coin, and the same happens if i do outside hyperspin.Mame options are setup to run the game in windowed mode and no mazimise.so i think everything sould work.

So if got the program and are willing to help, dont hide and speak up...thanks for any help .

I think I realized your problem. Did you change MAME's P1 and P2 Coin In keybinds to the keys you chose for Coinage's "MAME P1 Coin In" and MAME P2 Coin In" keybinds? These have to be bound separate from the actual coin slot keybinds.

For example, my coin slot keys are P1 = N and P2 = M.  I set Coinage's "Coin Slot 1" to N and "Coin Slot 2" to M. And then set Coinage's "MAME P1 Coin In" to 3 and "MAME P2 Coin In" to 4.  Then I opened MAME, hit tab, and changed the player coin in keybinds under "General Input -> Other -> Coin 1" & "Coin 2" to 3 and 4 respectfully.

If MAME is opening from your frontend, is getting shifted to fullscreen, and coin slot in's are registering then the Coinage.exe is working; it's just not sending the coins to MAME right.

Does MAME close correctly when you hit your "start game" button (granted you binded MAME's UI cancel to the same key)? If it doesn't then that's a good indicator that MAME isn't registering the script's hotkeys.

Also, make sure MAME's exe file is named "MAME.exe" not something else.

[abispac]

that was exactly my problem arcaderenegade,now its running smooth,thanks for your patience.now in the other hand, why did you decided to create this program and how did you started? did you had any previus progaming skills or knoleged? o you started this from scratch?

[shateredsoul1979]

So, how much money will arcade companies lose by this being released? I mean really, do they make profit from arcades anymore?

Anywho, I'd love to have something like that in place on my system, things is I have non-mame games, it would have to be something that kept track of how many times I pressed 5, and how many times I lost (across various emulators and mame). So, that's probably why they went to the timed things, but that's really lame.. it's no longer about skill and lasting longer, it's about speed.

[abispac]

Yeap, like i stated before, operators with altered mame,xbox,ps2 cabs, have gone the timed mode with some kind of chinese pcb, forcing kids to add coins if they want to cotinue playing, and because most hyspanic country's are not like the USA, the mayority of kids lack a ps2,xbox 1 or a computer ,and thats why they still enjoy those games on every corner store.
So in short words, i dont think many operators will be interested in this kind of program.

Im happy to state that this program works like a charm, but i have tested in windows 7 64 and it appears that windows 7 wont allow mame to accept either direct or raw input, whatever  makes this thing work. As this compiled mame wont respond to the keyboard , its like if there where no keyboard hook'ed to the computer. Can anyone ealse confirm this?

[shateredsoul1979]

Yeah, you have to change the input settings to raw when compiling, or something like that.

[abispac]

Hey Arcaderenegade, i have one petition or a fix to ask for if i may. When using this coinage with hyperspin, coinage not always picks mame,therefor i only hear mame wroking in the background and im unable to play, however if i edit the mame.ini to run mame in fullscreen instead and with maximise on, mame always open in hyperspin but the coin dysplay and the loading mesage stays in the background , but coinage works.So i wonder if you can make coinage not to maximisemame but to always stay in front of any program,that way it will always be visible.Thanks again for you work.

[ArcadeRenegade]

Hey Arcaderenegade, i have one petition or a fix to ask for if i may. When using this coinage with hyperspin, coinage not always picks mame,therefor i only hear mame wroking in the background and im unable to play, however if i edit the mame.ini to run mame in fullscreen instead and with maximise on, mame always open in hyperspin but the coin dysplay and the loading mesage stays in the background , but coinage works.So i wonder if you can make coinage not to maximisemame but to always stay in front of any program,that way it will always be visible.Thanks again for you work.

From what I understand, programs that run fullscreen always get priority over windowed programs like coinage. I'm unsure how to script it so it shows up over fullscreen mame like an overlay. Any programmers have any ideas?

For the time being I'll add a short break between when it detects MAME and when it maximizes it. That way there shouldn't be any inconsistancies.

[abispac]

That might be the problem, as the computer im using, mame sometimes take a bit more time to fireup up, especialy at the first time i do'it.ill wait for your next release.... 

[ArcadeRenegade]

That might be the problem, as the computer im using, mame sometimes take a bit more time to fireup up, especialy at the first time i do'it.ill wait for your next release.... 

My computer is busted at the moment but as soon as I get it fixed ill release a new version

[headkaze]

From what I understand, programs that run fullscreen always get priority over windowed programs like coinage. I'm unsure how to script it so it shows up over fullscreen mame like an overlay. Any programmers have any ideas?

Pretty much impossible to do easily. There was a way once called Direct Draw overlays but there are issues with it depending on the video card. It's not a reliable way anyway. The only other way is to API Hijack the DirectX dll's and overlay the graphics. That is the method used by software like Fraps to display the FPS over a game.

The best thing to do is add fullscreen support to \\.\DISPLAY2 (secondary screen).

[ArcadeRenegade]

From what I understand, programs that run fullscreen always get priority over windowed programs like coinage. I'm unsure how to script it so it shows up over fullscreen mame like an overlay. Any programmers have any ideas?

Pretty much impossible to do easily. There was a way once called Direct Draw overlays but there are issues with it depending on the video card. It's not a reliable way anyway. The only other way is to API Hijack the DirectX dll's and overlay the graphics. That is the method used by software like Fraps to display the FPS over a game.

The best thing to do is add fullscreen support to \\.\DISPLAY2 (secondary screen).

Hijacking DirectX dlls sounds like a whole lot of trouble. The windowed method isn't too cumbersome since Coinage resizes MAME outside the screens bounds to hide the title bar and stuff.

Anyways, I fixed my computer and revised the program. If you guys want to try v1.11 then let me know.

[headkaze]

Hijacking DirectX dlls sounds like a whole lot of trouble. The windowed method isn't too cumbersome since Coinage resizes MAME outside the screens bounds to hide the title bar and stuff.

Anyways, I fixed my computer and revised the program. If you guys want to try v1.11 then let me know.

You can remove the titlebar and frames from a window using the SetWindowLong() Win32 API function. You can do the same thing in AutoHotKey using "WinSet, Style" (http://superuser.com/questions/38687/windows-program-to-remove-titlebar-frame-etc-from-a-window).

[SquallLex]

I just want a coin limit, Knowing that I can't have more coins than what I set will make games more challenging and your app is fantastic for that. I'll post some pics of my custom arcade stick if needed, I only play at home. Will you share coindrop with me ?