Product Announcement, LONO Arcade to USB Controller

[AndyWarne]

That tiger heli link IS cool! Nice to know the old folks on here can post useful things instead of telling noobs they are wrong and that street fighter sucks...

But be aware that doc is very old. Products have changed since then, certainly ours have changed substantially. Much of the USB information, which refers to low-speed USB, is no longer relevant.

[ark_ader]

EVEGames, this may very well be a troll against me... and I dont care, but I will respond appropriately to set the record straight.

 I have posted my opinions about things I have not touched.  But this being with knowledge of the product, and a deep understanding of the nature of other related products.

 For example, a Leaf switch that has a hard 'bottom out point', will feel different than one that does not.  Its simple physics & comparison of the nearly identical physical counterparts.  You dont have to have the actual 'thing' to know its behavior.

 However, in Arks case, he spouts off without any understanding of the product or its differences... which isnt really right, and as you said, his response was very bitter, and seemed 'personal'.

 As for the market, I wouldnt know.  I dont sell the things.  Nor do I know the sheer number of mame type projects out there.  I do know that competition is good though.  But then again, sometimes cooperation can be better...  For example, if all the vendors pooled resources to get new Vector monitor made (or maybe a laser projector version?), remakes of complex controls such as Race Drivins FFB wheel + the sitdown shifter, a run of specialty plastics parts, etc.

 On a personal note, while I do not know technically if the thing gives the results that it claims... I do feel its imperative to have the utmost fastest responses possible.  A delay may be fine on certain games, but the more intense games really push you to the limits... and a split second delay can ruin everything.

 It may be a little more in cost, but for me, better control = better experience = worth every cent.

Well I have owned several encoders, but I like GGG's best.  The only reason for this - they work and work very well and they do not ghost or experience any lag.  The price factor would be a close second, as my soldering skills leave me with blistered fingers.

I have worked in an arcade while I was in College.  I used to build small cabinets out of laptops (none were any good really) but I used several encoders, including Andy's, and I still prefer Randy's.  I like X Arcade encoders too as they work on several platforms (with adapters) very well.  I cannot say I am a electronics wiz, but I know what works and what doesn't.

I do not like ghosting or lag, and I do not get any with Randy's or Andy's product.  Until I see a proper review with actual video, I'll stick with what I know is the best.  Besides Randy's customer service equals his product, which we can all agree.

So I am dubious with a product like the Lono, especially from an unknown, and when it is brought in to a website like BYOAC.  I will make a comment.  You don't like it, I can very easily go back to using spoilers in my post.

Unfortunately we have a brown nose in this forum that will argue at a drop of a hat.  Let him, that what freedom is all about.  We can always read his posts and laugh.

So until I see a proper review - I'll stick with GGG.  But if this Lono is the bees knees, I don't mind trying it out on my next product.

Maybe you can get an arcade builder to do a trial.


Enuf said.   

[Donkbaca]

Why the skepticism?  Lots of people have dealt with Bryan, and I have never seen anything bad written about him.  I like his approach to products, he isn't claiming his is the "best" he is just saying that its faster than any advertised rate of transfer, which is an objective fact.  Neph provided a mini-review.  I don't understand the negativity.  You are either implying that Bryan and Neph are liars, or they don't know what they are talking about.

I think word of mouth is pretty strong around here, things that don't work get rooted out fast.  If Bryan's product is great, it will develop a following, if its crap, it won't. The thing is though, that since word of mouth is strong people should qualify their remarks as opinions, and not masquerade them as facts.  If you have never tried this product, or even never bought from Bryan, how can you possibly have any sort of information that is worth anything to anyone?  You are just talking for the sake of talking.  You are entitled to your opinion, but it is what it is, an uninformed opinion.  Furthermore, just because you knew a lot about what encoders were like 5 years ago doesn't mean you have a clue as to what is being sold now.  Also, who cares if you worked in an arcade, building your own controls in 2010 is a LOT different then maintaining an arcade 20 years ago. You can build a mame cabinet with materials and components that do not have a SINGLE component in common with what was in arcade cabs 20 years ago.

This isn't a big dump on the vets on the board, a lot of them have very valuable things to say about things they know. But, for those that pretend like they know everything, here's a clue; technology has advanced and changed since the times that double dragon ruled the arcade and that cab you built 6 years ago on a pentium 2 running mame .36 doesn't have a lot in common with a lot of cabs being built now using different technology, different displays, different form factors, different front ends and connecting PS3's and Xboxes.

Buy what you want, say what you want, who cares, but don't get all sensitive when someone calls you out on your ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- and don't pretend that you OPINION is somehow better or more valuable than someone that has 15 posts. 9 times out of ten, from my experience, its not.

[ark_ader]

Based on beta testing feeback....

We added some functionality to the board.

The Lono will have three start up states, dependent on joystick position at start up.  If joystick 1 is in the neutral position the last programmed state will just be reactivated.
State 1) 4 x 1 joystick x 14 button controller
State 2) 4 x 1 joystick x 14 button controller, where button 14 acts as a shift, making buttons 1-13 show up as 15 -27
State 3) 4 x 1 joystick x 14 button controller, where button 14 shifts all the buttons and the joystick directions become 28-31

A lot of controllers have a "shift" button, but it is usually a universal "shift".  With the Lono, the board is recognized as four controller devices, and in these separate modes each has it's own shift capabilities.  That means you can enter admin controls on player 2, while player 1 is currently be used to play a game without affecting the mapping on player 1.  This also gives the lono the possibility of being programmed to 124 different action buttons and 4 joysticks.  Each controller, on the 4 controller board, has the capability of 31 different button signals and a joystick.

And it does all of this at a blazing fast speed, making it one of the fastest and more versatile controllers on the market.

What versions of Windows requires drivers for the Lono?  The advertisement says most versions.  Is that something to do with USB 2.0 compatibility?

What is the speed of the interface using USB 1.0 or is it not compatible?

Is there any blocking or ghosting with all devices being operated at once? 

What is the main differences between the Lono, Ipac and the Eco Wiz, except the price?

What sets this product apart from other well known established keyboard encoders?

Can this interface work with rotary Joysticks, or can you add daughter boards to expand control devices?

Have you begun to ship these Lono interfaces, or is the one pictured just a prototype?

[Dazz]

Wow, you guys really do bicker and moan way too much. 

I personally love seeing new products and new options for cab builders still being made.  I like having multiple options.  I think the LONO is a nice small footprint package that allows for some very clean wiring to be done.  Depending on when this is released; I'm considering going with the LONO on my current pinball/arcade hybrid build.

[ark_ader]

Why the skepticism?  Lots of people have dealt with Bryan, and I have never seen anything bad written about him.  I like his approach to products, he isn't claiming his is the "best" he is just saying that its faster than any advertised rate of transfer, which is an objective fact.  Neph provided a mini-review.  I don't understand the negativity.  You are either implying that Bryan and Neph are liars, or they don't know what they are talking about.

I think word of mouth is pretty strong around here, things that don't work get rooted out fast.  If Bryan's product is great, it will develop a following, if its crap, it won't. The thing is though, that since word of mouth is strong people should qualify their remarks as opinions, and not masquerade them as facts.  If you have never tried this product, or even never bought from Bryan, how can you possibly have any sort of information that is worth anything to anyone?  You are just talking for the sake of talking.  You are entitled to your opinion, but it is what it is, an uninformed opinion.  Furthermore, just because you knew a lot about what encoders were like 5 years ago doesn't mean you have a clue as to what is being sold now.  Also, who cares if you worked in an arcade, building your own controls in 2010 is a LOT different then maintaining an arcade 20 years ago. You can build a mame cabinet with materials and components that do not have a SINGLE component in common with what was in arcade cabs 20 years ago.

This isn't a big dump on the vets on the board, a lot of them have very valuable things to say about things they know. But, for those that pretend like they know everything, here's a clue; technology has advanced and changed since the times that double dragon ruled the arcade and that cab you built 6 years ago on a pentium 2 running mame .36 doesn't have a lot in common with a lot of cabs being built now using different technology, different displays, different form factors, different front ends and connecting PS3's and Xboxes.

Buy what you want, say what you want, who cares, but don't get all sensitive when someone calls you out on your ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- and don't pretend that you OPINION is somehow better or more valuable than someone that has 15 posts. 9 times out of ten, from my experience, its not.

There is no adverse personal motive associated with my comments.  Reading them again after a few hours away from the keyboard, I can see where your suggestion comes from. I welcome your comments.

It just seems odd that there is yet another encoder on the market, where there are two (or more?) dominate products that perform the job just as well.  Looking back on all the old threads that BYOACers made through the years and how many issues or suggestions there has been on at least two of the most well known companies.  These products have either spawned more varieties, or have just gotten better over time.  Why should new arcade builders not capitalize on this achievement?  Why should there be a new kid on the block?  Innovation?

A company saw a hole in the arcade collector market where light guns were needed for the arcade hobbyist.  This company came out with the LCDTopGun and we raved (well I did, as I have two) on the accuracy, recoil and the issues of calibration, drivers and the distance away from the cabinet you had to be, and wished there was an alternative.  Someone well known came in and plugged that hole, and yet I see problems, issues and excellent customer service, resolving them still.  The same goes for established products too.  The knowledge base on keyboard encoders on this site must be worth $$$ to any R&D project.

One would look at the arcade market and try to find holes to plug, not come out with a plug that has a fancy end to it, or a plug with a facility only a handful might utilize.  We need enterprise and ideas of commerce if we are ever to get out of this economic woe.

That was my point earlier with so very few words and smile(ies). Nothing I posted so far I can attribute to Don's post of my character.  I am still a consumer, and this fact qualifies me to make that choice or comment.

Does this product work on the Xbox and PS3?  Maybe not.  But other companies have found those holes already and plugged them.

What kind of undiscovered holes in the arcade market is still out there now?

Makes you think....

[Donkbaca]

What versions of Windows requires drivers for the Lono?  The advertisement says most versions.  Is that something to do with USB 2.0 compatibility?

What is the speed of the interface using USB 1.0 or is it not compatible?

Is there any blocking or ghosting with all devices being operated at once? 

What is the main differences between the Lono, Ipac and the Eco Wiz, except the price?

What sets this product apart from other well known established keyboard encoders?

Can this interface work with rotary Joysticks, or can you add daughter boards to expand control devices?

Have you begun to ship these Lono interfaces, or is the one pictured just a prototype?

all good questions.

I think the advantages here are:

1)wiring harness with pin headers = easy install.  Read the noobs posts, you get a lot of "where do I connect x to y?" posts.  This is simple, you don't even need a screw driver to get up and running. It might seem trivial to some, but a lot of newbies are terrified of wiring, even with screw terminals, the thought of getting wire (how many "what kind of wire do I get for my cp" posts are there?) crimping on connectors, etc, for whatever reason messes with people.  Those people will ove the idea of a plug in harness.

2) The boatload of inputs.  Makes building a franken-panel easier *cringe*

3) The transfer speed.  If everything works as explained, the faster usb 2.0 interface will theoretically be able to transfer more button pushes per second, which should theoretically be a boon to fans of button masher games.

Plus, I think Bryan's cheap and fast shipping is a selling point.

Will these things matter?  The market will bear that out.  Neph seems to think the thing has merit. 

As far as holes in the arcade market?  I can think of plenty:
1) lit bat tops
2) Button activated KVM switches to toggle between console and arcade
3) Bezels.  If someone made widescreen bezels cheap, they would get business
4) Still room for light gun solutions

That's 4 right off the top of my head.  Lots to do, just look at the common problems/wants on the project threads

[Hoopz]

For someone who complains about older members belittling newbs, you sure don't have an issue being an ass about people having frankinpanels.  Those who want respect, give respect.   

On topic:
I'm curious how these faster speeds are better than existing products' speeds.  Do the Ipac and Keywiz lines have issues?  Not that I've ever read about.  Sure some don't like the shift function on the Ipac but as far as button presses and speed, I have never once read that those products can't do what's required for any game regardless of the number of simultaneous button presses.  I'm not knocking this product.  I just want quantitative information that shows me that the practical application here is advantageous instead of why the theoretical throughput is better.

[Malenko]

donkbaca bounces off the screen door. I just wanna know if it stays true to the code.

[Donkbaca]

Franken panels are ugly.  They are so ugly that they were, indeed named after Al Franken.  He is one ugly dude.  That's how ugly they are.  If they were really that sweet, they would be called Upton panels after Kate Upton. Have you seen her?  Do you not have google?  By God stop wasting your time reading about nerds and their stupid little encoder board theories and google her.

Back on topic. That's a good point.  Does the increase in speed matter? In other words, does the faster transfer speed actually result in better performance?  If the hardware is bottlenecked by the software, then it won't matter if its faster.

That being said:
harnesses
Al Franken panel friendly

are still selling points

[Hoopz]

It seems to me that this quote from MonMotha in the trainwreck that was the USB v. PS/2 v. COM v. LPT thread is the most relative here:

Note also that games (especially arcade games being emulated in MAME) only check the inputs at a certain rate, regardless of how often new input data may be available.  For arcade games, this is typically once per frame.  Since the framerate is usually ~60Hz, as long as new data is available at least that often (and 120Hz+ would guarantee it), there's little to be gained from higher polling rates or lower input lag.

I can't quote directly since the thread got locked.  Must be a new feature!   

What rate did Jamma machines poll for input changes?  Is USB High Speed faster than that?  If so, then can it be reflected in Mame or is that where the bottleneck would occur? If Mame is not the bottleneck, then CAN a USB high speed device send info faster than what original equipment did?

And is this not theoretical?  Besides a certain someone with his shaolin death toe that can play any Mame game better than everyone else, can any human hit a button and get faster results than a regular USB device can send?

[Malenko]

And is this not theoretical?  Besides a certain someone with his shaolin death toe that can play any Mame game better than everyone else, can any human hit a button and get faster results than a regular USB device can send?

When he plays street fighter, he hits the kick buttons with his feet while standing at his mame cab, true story

[Hoopz]

And is this not theoretical?  Besides a certain someone with his shaolin death toe that can play any Mame game better than everyone else, can any human hit a button and get faster results than a regular USB device can send?

When he plays street fighter, he hits the kick buttons with his feet while standing at his mame cab, true story

Pics?

[Malenko]

he moves too fast to be photographed, remember?

[Donkbaca]

X2 aside... Its not just the amount of info, its the rate at which it's transferred, so this device should get those button presses there faster, which would mean the game would be more responsive, which is basically what Nephs impression was having actually used it

[armi0024]

Donkbaca, you are on to me, I did more to Hawaii from Minnesota and I'm just trying to spread the Franken love.....

This thread is like a bad prime time show where you laugh then cringe thinking, he did what?  However, it has taken a better turn towards civility and appreciate that move greatly.

Ader brings up some good questions and I will try to answer those as well as some of the other points as best as I can.  

I am a relatively new entity.  If I came out with a controller that also drove your car, piloted helicopters, allowed for the space shuttle cocktpit to be installed in your living room and more, people would say..."Oh, I wouldn't want to buy something so complicated from a newbie".  Instead I came out with something that was relatively straight forward but I thought would fit some certain applications better then the currently available encoders.  I did so with a lot of thought and care into how it was done. So people are now saying "What value is this?"

If it's not of value to you don't buy it... That's really fine with me, I wan't trying to come up with a solution to everything that ever was, just a great solution for what I see as a niche in the controller market.  This is at heart a fast board that comes with wires for easy installation and has 72 inputs.  If that fits your need GREAT if it doesn't, build a bigger panel

So your questions:
What versions of Windows requires drivers for the Lono?  The advertisement says most versions.  Is that something to do with USB 2.0 compatibility?
The board has been tested on System 7 (32bit and 64bit), XP and Linux.  I have not tested it on older versions but it should be compatible with the same systems that the Xin-mo has been tested on and that includes 98, 2000, and a few Mac OS's.

What is the speed of the interface using USB 1.0 or is it not compatible?
I'm not going to cover all of the USB details, but if you need to know these specifications please look here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus
Now that being said, I was very precise in what I said.  This is a USB 2.0 native hardware device that is running at full speed.  This means that it is backwards compatible with 1.1(which is what most people refer to as USB 1), I have not tested it with USB 1.0 which is not a common port.  Full speed is defined as 12 Mbit/s by convention.  One advantage of this device is that it does not use software to emulate a USB port, the chip has a dedicated hardware based USB 2.0 port integrated.

Is there any blocking or ghosting with all devices being operated at once?  
No, in fairness and not to be rude, I think I've covered this a few times.  But there is not limit to the number of buttons you can push at once. And no blocking.

What is the main differences between the Lono, Ipac and the Eco Wiz, except the price?
OK, I am not going to answer this, because it is not fair for me to state direct comparisons in a thread where I do not want Randy or Andy to post.  And to their credit they have respected that boundary. (Andy's one statement was very appropriate and device independent)
I will say this, consider looking at my two encoder products.  The Xin-mo we offer and have been for the last 9 months, as well as the Lono.  I'm not saying this is the be all and end all way of looking at it, but if you were to break this down like grocery stores do, $x/oz or something like that.  Let's do the price per WIRED input. (in emphasized wired input because that is an integral part of the Lono design and that is not the case with all controllers)  The Xin-mo, which by most accounts is a low cost controller, is 25 dollars with 30 inputs, or $0.83 per wired input, the Paradise Style is 28.95 making it $0.97 per wired input.  The Lono is 72 inputs for 65 dollars or $0.90 per wired input.  So i was surprised that people were commenting about pricing.  Now if you need 10 inputs, this is an expensive way to go, but if you need 60-72 inputs and want the wiring included.  The Lono is cheaper per input than our budget controller with a fancy harness.  I have intentionally not included an analysis of anyone else's controller here.  As I said, that would not be fair, but it's not hard to do the comparisons yourself and compare the costs of a controller with harness to a controller with harness, as a whole or at a per input calculation.

What sets this product apart from other well known established keyboard encoders?
The amazing name  First off, it's not a keyboard encode, I know that I am harping on that.  Now we are not the only USB controller that maps to arcade controls.  And we are not the only full-speed device. I have only been able to test this device against a few select products and use the statistics that are on a suppliers website, I have not seen a button update rate or specific speed data for other suppliers products that also run at full-speed.

Can this interface work with rotary Joysticks, or can you add daughter boards to expand control devices?
This is a great question and I can always expand on this board.... You didn't think this was the end of my plans do you?

Have you begun to ship these Lono interfaces, or is the one pictured just a prototype?
We sent out beta test boards for feedback with a harness that would function but was not the final harness. The board shown is a final production run board.  At this point we are just waiting for harnesses to arrive.  Now come on... that looks better than a prototype doesn't it?

I would love to sit here and talk about all the things we are working on, and how this board is the part of a much larger evolutionary process taking place at our store, but as pointed out by others there is competition in this market.  If I show everyone else where we are going, then there are those who would work hard to stop us from getting there.  And that's fine, we are competitors.  I have friendly competition and less than friendly competition, but I haven't told any of them, and they haven't told me the secrets of what's coming next.

I will say that getting this board out when our leaf switches finally arrived was not a mistake... if you are going to spend the money on leaf switches, we wanted to be able to offer a board that would perform in a way that allowed our customers to use them to their full potential.

But here is a simple truth.... 1 year ago, we didn't have a website and were selling LED buttons through the KLOV forums and today we have over 350 products, are releasing our own custom boards and are doing OEM work for other people(Yes, cooperation, the custom 1.5" ball tops for Wolfeel's sticks and other projects on other forums, as well as some not publicly discussed cooperation here)  I am not trying to say, "Hey we are amazing", as I'm sure other retailers can point out their merits, which are pretty amazing. But I am saying we are showing a clear pattern... if you think this is it, you haven't been paying attention

All that being said, Malenko you now must die for releasing the secret of the Shaolin Death Toe, this secret technique was the core of our Lono 2.0 (aka Lono Ultraspectacular).

[Hoopz]

he moves too fast to be photographed, remember?

My bad.  I should have realized that.  

X2 aside... Its not just the amount of info, its the rate at which it's transferred, so this device should get those button presses there faster, which would mean the game would be more responsive, which is basically what Nephs impression was having actually used it

I don't think so.  If the device is sending the info faster than the software calls for, the rest is superfluous and isn't factored in.  I'm pretty sure that's the dumb downed way of saying what MonMotha said.  It may not be exactly precise though but it's somewhat close.

[Donkbaca]

I think the rate if transfer is different then the the amount of processes per second. If a single were pressed, it would be sent to the computer faster. So yeah I guess if the limit is 60 registers per second, the volume of button presses registered would be the same, but the USB 2.0 should get those sixty there faster. But it's microseconds, and it might not matter, but it mattered to Neph, the only guy that's tested it so far.

I could be wrong. I really don't care.
Go Mavericks

[Nephasth]

I have not tested it on older versions but it should be compatible with the same systems that the Xin-mo has been tested on and that includes 98, 2000, and a few Mac OS's.

I should have mentioned this before, but I tested this on Windows 2000 and it was instantly recognized, so there's one more to cross off the list.

I think the rate if transfer is different then the the amount of processes per second. If a single were pressed, it would be sent to the computer faster. So yeah I guess if the limit is 60 registers per second, the volume of button presses registered would be the same, but the USB 2.0 should get those sixty there faster. But it's microseconds, and it might not matter, but it mattered to Neph, the only guy that's tested it so far.

I didn't test this board to see the raw data of its performance. I tested it from a consumer point of view, comparing it with the keyboard encoder I have been using since before I joined here, the one I had been perfectly happy with since I bought it, and to me there was a NOTICEABLE improvement in response time when compared with my other interface. Perhaps someone will give the Lono a try and collect the data to provide the numbers others have been requesting.

[Silverwind]

I really appreciate people taking the time to think about this and contribute their thoughts.  Cheffo made a great suggestion, we are waiting for our harnesses to arrive... A great deal of thought went into trying to lay this out so it made sense.  For the harnesses, we wanted to make sure that it was easy to wire up.  There are 18 connections per joystick and once you get out to the end of the run, knowing if you have button1 or button 10 can be tough unless you have a clear system.  So what we did was to have 10 colors per 20 pin connector

with two different colors of insulation at the end.  For example, Red Clear is button 1, Red Blue is button 10.

The end result is harness that allows for a very wide range of connections, but is relatively simple to use:


The harnesses are 18" and 30" long to allow for larger control panels and come with a simple .100 female header so that you can just plug them in.

If people want a non-harness, no pin header, version so that you have to do all the soldering yourself.... let me know, I might be able to arrange for a batch like that.

Love the harness.  Nice work! Good selling point to differentiate your product.

[armi0024]

Thanks for all the great feedback we've been receiving.  Evidently color coded harnesses are a HIT!

[Gray_Area]

I hadn't thought till just now: what about name tags for the wires?

Also, something happened to your signature image.

[Ginsu Victim]

Love the harness.  Nice work! Good selling point to differentiate your product.

To be fair, the Minipac has had a wire harness for years.

[thaddeussmith]

Love the harness.  Nice work! Good selling point to differentiate your product.

To be fair, the Minipac has had a wire harness for years.

To be fair, you're commenting on a year old thread.

[armi0024]

To be fair, we'll be launching a new board soon.... so thanks for the bump

What's in store?
Keep your eyes open, we are shooting for something small, fast and very versatile.... Funny someone would mention the Minipac...

[Nephasth]

To be fair, we'll be launching a new board soon.... so thanks for the bump

What's in store?
Keep your eyes open, we are shooting for something small, fast and very versatile.... Funny someone would mention the Minipac...

Interesting...!

[Gray_Area]

I'm thinking U-Hid competition.

[BadMouth]

I'm thinking U-Hid competition.

w/ffb outputs? (I know I'm dreaming)

[armi0024]

No ffb, and we are not targeting the Uhid specifically.  As soon as I have final configurations done we will announce the product.  Right now we have 20 or so bench top units and we are seeing how much we can or can't do...

[ark_ader]

To be fair, we'll be launching a new board soon.... so thanks for the bump

What's in store?
Keep your eyes open, we are shooting for something small, fast and very versatile.... Funny someone would mention the Minipac...

It wouldn't be a clone of a Xin Mo encoder, would it? 

I mean it would have to be , to compete with a mass produced $25 dollar encoder with all the connections.

Or is it a X Arcade type interface with a $100 price tag?

I cannot see where a company would develop a product in such a high risk and saturated market unless they had an angle.   

I got it:  It is a new Xbox1 encoder for all us CoinOPS 4 fanatics!!! 

[armi0024]

Thanks for the bump?

Funny thing is that everyone keeps talking about saturated markets, etc, but the market has been good to us.  Xin mo's are nice controllers and utilitarian but they are much slower than the more expensive controllers by Us, GGG or Ultimarc

[Ginsu Victim]

Love the harness.  Nice work! Good selling point to differentiate your product.

To be fair, the Minipac has had a wire harness for years.

To be fair, you're commenting on a year old thread.

It was mentioned in another thread, so when I clicked it and saw the last post was July 10th, I didn't pay attention to the year.