Product Announcement, LONO Arcade to USB Controller

[armi0024]

Paradise Arcade Shop would like to proudly introduce the:
Lono^TM Arcade to USB 2.0 Controller Board


Boards ship 5/20 with orders accepted on 5/18

Lono is the god of the Makahiki Festival and the Hawaiian games.  We thought this was a perfect match for this board....

Not just another arcade to USB controller board, the Lono^TM is a small board with big features.
This board comes complete with pin headers and harnesses for easy wiring, allowing 4 joysticks and 56 buttons to be connected at the fastest advertised rate of output with Full-Speed USB.

The Lono is not just another keyboard emulator. It is a full featured USB 2.0 joystick device.
What does this mean? You can forget about ghosting and all the other limitations of a keyboard.  The Lono is detecting and sending as many buttons as you want to push with NO ghosting, even if you were to activate all 56 buttons at once. The Lono board comes with a 6' USB cable and 4 Paradise Rainbow Harnesses^TM(1 per joystick) that will allow for a 4 person panel up to 5ft across with no soldering, crimping or screw terminals. The Lono is automatically recognized by most versions of Windows and Linux without the need for additional drivers making this board easily integrated into your current or new installation.

Features

• Ultra-fast with a USB 2.0 output that updates all 72 inputs faster than anyone's advertised USB Full-Speed rate
  
• 4 separate 19 pin headers allowing for 4 joysticks and 56 buttons
• Automatically shows up in Windows as 4 Joysticks, and 14 buttons with each, making Mame configuration almost automatic
• Native USB 2.0 Full-Speed support
• Integrated hardware based USB technology, much faster throughput than software emulated ports
• USB 2.0 HID device that is automatically recognized by HID compatible operating systems
• Small 2" x 2.5" form factor means this 72 input controller will fit just about anywhere
• Pin headers with harness. No screws, no solder, just plug and play
• Harness is fully color coded for easy wiring eliminating the tedious task of tracing same color wires
• Multipile Lono boards can run together if you need more than 72 inputs (72,144,216,etc)
• Engineered and Assembled in the USA

Package includes:
1 x Lono^TM Arcade to USB 2.0 board
2 x 18" Paradise Rainbow Harnesses^TM
2 x 30" Paradise Rainbow Harnesses^TM
2 x PCB board feet w/screws
Quick start installation guide (full installation guide will be available in pdf form on the website)

[Gray_Area]

Looks nice.

Does that mean it won't be listed until 5/18? I'm sure everyone is eager to know price.

[BobA]

Looks great.   Need the price.

[armi0024]

We only need to sell one!

Actually on a serious note, they will be 65 each, this includes all the harnessing, usb cable, board, and as always... some Hawaiian chocolate.

[armi0024]

Based on beta testing feeback....

We added some functionality to the board.

The Lono will have three start up states, dependent on joystick position at start up.  If joystick 1 is in the neutral position the last programmed state will just be reactivated.
State 1) 4 x 1 joystick x 14 button controller
State 2) 4 x 1 joystick x 14 button controller, where button 14 acts as a shift, making buttons 1-13 show up as 15 -27
State 3) 4 x 1 joystick x 14 button controller, where button 14 shifts all the buttons and the joystick directions become 28-31

A lot of controllers have a "shift" button, but it is usually a universal "shift".  With the Lono, the board is recognized as four controller devices, and in these separate modes each has it's own shift capabilities.  That means you can enter admin controls on player 2, while player 1 is currently be used to play a game without affecting the mapping on player 1.  This also gives the lono the possibility of being programmed to 124 different action buttons and 4 joysticks.  Each controller, on the 4 controller board, has the capability of 31 different button signals and a joystick.

And it does all of this at a blazing fast speed, making it one of the fastest and more versatile controllers on the market.

[Encryptor]

Will there be a 2 player version? Overall I think most people build 2 player cp's. Why spend the extra money for a 4 player encoder.

[armi0024]

Great question,  we have been offering the Xin-mo controller for almost a year now, and have two options there for 2 player control panels:
Xin Mo Arcade Controller to USB - Paradise Style=28.95
Xin Mo Arcade Controller to USB - PC or PS3=25.00

However, at 65 the Lono comes complete with a full wiring harness. When I check prices, other vendors are charging 55 and up for their in house controller with harness.  I will look at the numbers for doing a 2 player controller, it might make sense to have something priced between our current offering and the Lono. 

[Xiaou2]

I think thats a great unit, esp with the harness.  Sadly, I will need a lot of analog inputs too... analog sticks, pedals, thrusters, spinners, trackballs..

 However, I wanted to say that I think the main problem is your website.  Its very hard to navigate and see whats available.

 For example, under categories, theres no "Encoders " section.
And when you hit a category, pictures dont always pop up unless you enter them.

[armi0024]

Xiaou you bring up some great points, and thank you.
 
To borrow from your car analogy in the Frankenpanel discussion... this is our Porsche Turbo, it doesn't hold a lot, but it's blazing fast and does exactly what it's meant to do with speed, accuracy and efficiency.  Button pushes are transmitted at rates beyond anything else published out there on other people's sites.  Our goal was simple, solderless, easy to install, fast, effective, and based on drivers present already in Windows.

Without any tools what so ever, you can connect arcade joysticks and buttons to a computer with this device and you are ready to go.  In fact if you down load MameUI32 or 64 you can just start playing immeadiately.

That is not to say that a machine with over 5 analog devices is not important.  Because many analog devices have USB options we felt that for this version we would build the Porsche 911, not the SUV for now...

I will take a look at the site again.  We are rapidly evolving and have added over 150 products since Jan 1.  We will be over 400 products by July 1 and probably around 500+ by next December.  Part of the complications of this growth is how to organize the presentation.  Not only in a way that makes sense for our products, but also our customers.  Our customer base is very diverse, including Mame builders, classic arcade enthusiasts, console based fighters, and others.  Any thoughts or comments on how to improve the site are very welcome, please PM me or email me. 

Thank you again for all the constructive comments. 

[ark_ader]

Yawn.

You have to have guts to come into a overly saturated market with a device like that.

At a price that is too much for a device I could pick up from Randy for Andy for much less and get a lot more, especially in this tough economy.

Good Luck! 

[jtslade]

Connivence is a good selling point, it's a big thing given that few arcade enthusiasts have unlimited time to spend on wiring and crimping and soldering.

Hid response time in the forum is good, another big plus.

Yes Andy is awesome and has great products so the benchmark is very high but having healthy competition in this market is a good thing.

The problem that faces every enthusiast here is the drive to get as close an arcade feel as possible on as many types of games as possible is a big challenge, with multiple vendors it makes for better selection and at different price points.

Groovy game gear has it's positioning niche, Ultimarc has it's space as well. There is still a good bit of open marketplace

[EVEGames]

Yawn.

You have to have guts to come into a overly saturated market with a device like that.

At a price that is too much for a device I could pick up from Randy for Andy for much less and get a lot more, especially in this tough economy.

Good Luck!  

Armi,
Only a potent mix of jealousy and ignorance could combine to produce a reaction like that.  "Overly Saturated Market"?!?!  In what alternate universe is there an overly saturated market for arcade parts?  This new product of yours is obviously not a clone of ANY product that Randy or Andy already provide, and I defy ark_ader to prove otherwise or admit that was a foolish statement.  

I can't wait to see what you come out with next.  Keep up the good work!

-EVEGames

[ark_ader]

Yawn.

You have to have guts to come into a overly saturated market with a device like that.

At a price that is too much for a device I could pick up from Randy for Andy for much less and get a lot more, especially in this tough economy.

Good Luck!  

Armi,
Only a potent mix of jealousy and ignorance could combine to produce a reaction like that.  "Overly Saturated Market"?!?!  In what alternate universe is there an overly saturated market for arcade parts?  This new product of yours is obviously not a clone of ANY product that Randy or Andy already provide, and I defy ark_ader to prove otherwise or admit that was a foolish statement.  

I can't wait to see what you come out with next.  Keep up the good work!

-EVEGames

 

[CheffoJeffo]

While I almost never agree with ark and definitely like the way that Bryan donates a portion of sales to charities (including KLOV and this place!), I wouldn't dismiss ark's statement out of hand.

There are a bunch of encoder options out there and a number of other options have come and gone in the past few years -- the market *is* pretty damned saturated, except, I think, at the low end where cheap controller hacking is already a decent option.

The question that should be answered is what the advantages of the various options are. Just recognizing that they aren't clones of each other doesn't create any compelling reason to buy any of them and, to my mind, makes EVEGames' statement the most foolish, but not the most obnoxious (that honour goes to ark), statement in the thread.

It is nice to see new options, but without clear and obvious advantages to the consumer, I can't get too excited.

One thing that I will recommend is for Bryan to get some pics of those wiring harnesses up in this thread and on the site. Folks like me or on KLOV may love cutting, crimping and soldering, but lots of people don't and that, in itself, may be the biggest advantage.

 

[armi0024]

I really appreciate people taking the time to think about this and contribute their thoughts.  Cheffo made a great suggestion, we are waiting for our harnesses to arrive... A great deal of thought went into trying to lay this out so it made sense.  For the harnesses, we wanted to make sure that it was easy to wire up.  There are 18 connections per joystick and once you get out to the end of the run, knowing if you have button1 or button 10 can be tough unless you have a clear system.  So what we did was to have 10 colors per 20 pin connector

with two different colors of insulation at the end.  For example, Red Clear is button 1, Red Blue is button 10.

The end result is harness that allows for a very wide range of connections, but is relatively simple to use:


The harnesses are 18" and 30" long to allow for larger control panels and come with a simple .100 female header so that you can just plug them in.

If people want a non-harness, no pin header, version so that you have to do all the soldering yourself.... let me know, I might be able to arrange for a batch like that.

[ark_ader]

That looks better.

Maybe the OP can ship some of these out to a select few, to be able to review it on the BYOAC.

I would be interested on how the units perform in a cab, before purchase.

I can think of just one brown nose in here who would be grateful for such an opportunity. 

[EVEGames]

Cheffo, I'm really surprised.  You think ark_ader's "advice" is good... another encoder, yawn, you got some balls trying to bring another encoder to market, eye-roll.  Bryan is obviously not creating hand-made keyboard controllers in his basement and selling them out of the back of his van.  The man is trying to establish himself in a wide-open (yes, still wide-open) market, and he's obviously way beyond the point of, "ya sure you're not getting in over your head, kid?" type of advice.  He wants to become a one-stop shop, and I think he's off to a great start.

You ask for a clear and obvious advantage to the consumer, I'll give you two, even though Bryan has already stated them earlier in the thread.  Bryan's product is not a keyboard encoder, it's a USB joystick device.  One advantage to that is, not only will it work right out of the box with MameUI (or any version of mame with mimumal tweaking), it will most likely also work with most of the 20 other emulators on your system with minimal or no tweaking.  Think of how many emulators have a checkbox to turn on joystick support, rather than mapping each control to a keycode.  With this encoder, you can do that.  Here's another one.  Read the 5th post in the thread.  The ability to engage Shift functions only within your own "bank" of controls... Player 1 can use a Shift function in the middle of game play, let's say Coin Up, and not worry that Player 2 is going to hit a Shifted button on his side and screw up the game.  I don't have admin buttons on my current control panel, so when I'm playing Gauntlet with a friend, and I need to coin up, I have to ask him to stop playing for a second while I use the Shift function of my IPac to coin up, because I have shifted functions mapped to nearly every button for use in other emulators like C64.  Now picture each player has their own shift button that doesn't affect the other players' controls.

So maybe you can point out what part of my post was foolish, Cheffo, if you show me, I'll cop to it, unlike Ark.  

-EVEGames

[Encryptor]

Great question,  we have been offering the Xin-mo controller for almost a year now, and have two options there for 2 player control panels:
Xin Mo Arcade Controller to USB - Paradise Style=28.95
Xin Mo Arcade Controller to USB - PC or PS3=25.00

However, at 65 the Lono comes complete with a full wiring harness. When I check prices, other vendors are charging 55 and up for their in house controller with harness.  I will look at the numbers for doing a 2 player controller, it might make sense to have something priced between our current offering and the Lono. 

Thanks for the reply. Do they have the default MAME keyset? I don't see anything that says where these can be programmed in anyway.

[EVEGames]

Yawn.
You have to have guts to come into a overly saturated market with a device like that.
At a price that is too much for a device I could pick up from Randy for Andy for much less and get a lot more, especially in this tough economy.

I would be interested on how the units perform in a cab, before purchase.

 

[armi0024]

Let me clarify quickly before this derails.
Mame has a default set for the controls, this controller will map out to the joysticks and action buttons automatically.  You will need to map the coin and start buttons.  This was done because of the diversity of panels people use, we did not want to create a dedicated spot for these two buttons. (For example, what if you want to use coin as a shift command)If there was a demand this could be modified.  

We did not set this board up for programming, that was a decision.  We could do so in the future if people wanted this function, but Mame has a very extensive ability to modify and create configuration files that map inputs.  My thought with this board was to not reinvent any wheels and to use the existing set up in Mame to deal with people's desire to change things around.  This also allows people to easily switch between the Xin-mo controller and the Lono.

Our Beta testers felt that the shift function for admin was crucial but the programmable nature was not so important.

[Nephasth]

Bryan was nice enough to allow me to beta test this board (thanks again man!), and I have had it for about a week now. Previously, I had been using a "common" keyboard encoder and never had any complaints about it, it managed to do what I thought was a great job (and I still think it does a decent job in the right applications). Also, I have to admit I was a little skeptical when Bryan was explaining the speed of the board to me, as well as using a controller interface vs. a keyboard encoder. However, immediately after playing my first game with this board I was more than pleasantly surprised!

I, like some, enjoy cutting wires and making my own harnesses. This board does come with pre-made harnesses, which made it incredibly fast to install. I also have a preference of the pin headers over screw terminals, which helps maintain a clean finished look to the wiring if you wire your own harness with header connectors.

Another plus with this is there is no need to assign joystick IDs between the 4 controllers of the board and it is instantly recognized by Windows. Also having 4 controllers ran through 1 USB cable is nice to help keep wiring clutter down.

I do not use MAMEUI32 or 64, and I had MAME configured for keyboard inputs originally. But it was no big deal to adjust MAME's settings to accept the joystick inputs, just a few minutes of setting them and it was ready to play.

The advantages of this board's speed became immediately obvious when I played Raiden (the first game I chose). On my first credit I scored a new personal best, which impressed me. I was able to dodge more easily and shoot faster. The most noticeable difference was the speed at which I could change directions with the joystick. It was like my reaction time improved, although I know it didn't, it was just the inputs being processed faster.

Is this board for everyone? No. But I consider this a must have for those who love button mashers (shmups, beat-em-ups, and the like), and a great interface for those with 4 player CPs. I would also like to see a 2 player version of this board released. I don't think the market is "over saturated", but there are a lot of options out there, and I must say, I am a fan of options.

[Hoopz]

Outstanding.  $10 that this thread goes a minimum of 3 pages and has certain people arguing the relative speed of Hi-Speed USB 2.0 v. other options available.  Any takers?

[ark_ader]

Bryan was nice enough to allow me to beta test this board (thanks again man!), and I have had it for about a week now. Previously, I had been using a "common" keyboard encoder and never had any complaints about it, it managed to do what I thought was a great job (and I still think it does a decent job in the right applications). Also, I have to admit I was a little skeptical when Bryan was explaining the speed of the board to me, as well as using a controller interface vs. a keyboard encoder. However, immediately after playing my first game with this board I was more than pleasantly surprised!

I, like some, enjoy cutting wires and making my own harnesses. This board does come with pre-made harnesses, which made it incredibly fast to install. I also have a preference of the pin headers over screw terminals, which helps maintain a clean finished look to the wiring if you wire your own harness with header connectors.

Another plus with this is there is no need to assign joystick IDs between the 4 controllers of the board and it is instantly recognized by Windows. Also having 4 controllers ran through 1 USB cable is nice to help keep wiring clutter down.

I do not use MAMEUI32 or 64, and I had MAME configured for keyboard inputs originally. But it was no big deal to adjust MAME's settings to accept the joystick inputs, just a few minutes of setting them and it was ready to play.

The advantages of this board's speed became immediately obvious when I played Raiden (the first game I chose). On my first credit I scored a new personal best, which impressed me. I was able to dodge more easily and shoot faster. The most noticeable difference was the speed at which I could change directions with the joystick. It was like my reaction time improved, although I know it didn't, it was just the inputs being processed faster.

Is this board for everyone? No. But I consider this a must have for those who love button mashers (shmups, beat-em-ups, and the like), and a great interface for those with 4 player CPs. I would also like to see a 2 player version of this board released. I don't think the market is "over saturated", but there are a lot of options out there, and I must say, I am a fan of options.

So based on your report of the device in question, how practical would it be for an existing arcade cabinet owner, to change software and hardware to accommodate this new device?

Simply put, is this product faster than a GGG or Ultimarc product?

[Malenko]

Outstanding.  $10 that this thread goes a minimum of 3 pages and has certain people arguing the relative speed of Hi-Speed USB 2.0 v. other options available.  Any takers?

Hell no, a certain someone already posted in the thread. I couldn't quote his reply with a picture of his "control panel prototype" cause the frankenpanel thread was trimmed.

I think its a neat product for someone who doesnt have a build yet. Andy has been too good to me to replace any of my ipacs/jpacs with anything else

[armi0024]

Let's cut it short of 3 pages.
The device is a native hardware based USB 2.0 that is running at Full-speed.

I am not going to get into the details of each one, there is Low Speed, Full Speed, and High Speed.

The comment on faster refers to the controllers ability to report button pushes as measured by the number of times a second it can report a button or input was activated. There is no limit(other than we only have 72 inputs) on the number of inputs that can be activated at this faster rate.

Some vendors have rates advertised, some don't.  The Lono is faster than any advertised rate for capabilities of buttons pushes per second.

[Nephasth]

So based on your report of the device in question, how practical would it be for an existing arcade cabinet owner, to change software and hardware to accommodate this new device?

Like I said, this is not for everybody. For owners of existing cabs, it could be hassel if one were to completely rewire the CP with the supplied harness, and the same could be said for changing out any piece of hardware. It wouldn't be too big of a job to wire on some of the header connectors though. Practical? Depends on if the owner wanted the speed advantage of this board, which surprised me. Why change what has been working well for you already? For new builders it would be just as easy (if not easier, depending on how that person chose to wire the cab) to use this interface vs any other. I didn't think it would affect my game play, but it was a nice "boost". Before testing this board, I most likely would not have purchase it, as game play seemed fine to me with my keyboard encoder. But after giving it a try I would definitely consider purchasing another for a future build. "Changing software" wasn't a hassel at all.

Simply put, is this product faster than a GGG or Ultimarc product?

You have a PM.

I tried it out. It performed better than my expectations. I provided my opinion on the product (without bashing someone else's this time), and hopefully it will help someone out when it comes time for them to make a decision on a purchase.

[rcub3]

Nephasth, I'm not the OP this time, so we should be good. 

[Hoopz]

Is there a scientific way to quantify response time?  I don't think that simply going off of feel or scores is indicative of true response time.

I would like to see a non-biased third party who has a history here (positive history if at all possible) do a review based off something that can be quantified.  Tiger-Heli comes to mind but he hasn't been posting much.  I think that getting Robin's perspective about the specs would be good also, but he hasn't logged in here in over a year (last I checked it was April of 2010).

To be open, I've bought parts from Andy, Randy, Christian, Divemaster and had recently (yesterday) sent Armi0024 a PM about a small purchase through him.  Probably the only one I haven't personally dealt with is Kelsey. I don't count Dave/Harpal since they're liars and thieves but for the regulars, I've had positive experiences with all of them. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Cheffo, I'm really surprised.  You think ark_ader's "advice" is good... another encoder, yawn, you got some balls trying to bring another encoder to market, eye-roll.  Bryan is obviously not creating hand-made keyboard controllers in his basement and selling them out of the back of his van.  The man is trying to establish himself in a wide-open (yes, still wide-open) market, and he's obviously way beyond the point of, "ya sure you're not getting in over your head, kid?" type of advice.  He wants to become a one-stop shop, and I think he's off to a great start.

Thanks. I'm kind new to this whole thing so I really appreciate your telling me that I am unaware of the market.

 

If you take the time to read what I wrote, I said that I wouldn't dismiss ark's statement out of hand, like you did. I never said that his advice was right (did he even give any advice ?)

Back in the day, Tiger-Heli would beat the living crap out of every encoder that he could get his hands on and wrote amazingly detailed reviews.

Nowadays we get people chiming in who have never even read TH's reviews (which really is required if you want your opinion to be taken seriously), yet expect to be allowed to stand on the lawn shaking their fists.

You ask for a clear and obvious advantage to the consumer, I'll give you two, even though Bryan has already stated them earlier in the thread.  Bryan's product is not a keyboard encoder, it's a USB joystick device.  One advantage to that is, not only will it work right out of the box with MameUI (or any version of mame with mimumal tweaking), it will most likely also work with most of the 20 other emulators on your system with minimal or no tweaking.  Think of how many emulators have a checkbox to turn on joystick support, rather than mapping each control to a keycode.  With this encoder, you can do that.  

I do now have some reading to do based on information that has now been kindly provided to me by PM from a few parties. I will read that information and respond to the parties privately. I am not Tiger-Heli and am not going to get sucked into the type of debate that Hoopz properly anticipates.

I find it strange that you write "USB joystick device" as if that, in itself, is something revolutionary. If you think that is, then please shut up now and let the grown-ups talk.

Here's another one.  Read the 5th post in the thread.  The ability to engage Shift functions only within your own "bank" of controls... Player 1 can use a Shift function in the middle of game play, let's say Coin Up, and not worry that Player 2 is going to hit a Shifted button on his side and screw up the game.  I don't have admin buttons on my current control panel, so when I'm playing Gauntlet with a friend, and I need to coin up, I have to ask him to stop playing for a second while I use the Shift function of my IPac to coin up, because I have shifted functions mapped to nearly every button for use in other emulators like C64.  Now picture each player has their own shift button that doesn't affect the other players' controls.

Now, that is the type of thing that I was talking about. However, I am not sure that it solves a problem that wouldn't be solved better through alternative CP design. My first MAME cocktail suffered from exactly the problem that you describe. IMOP (sorry, channeling Xiaou2), if you want to coin-up then use a coin -- that was how I solved that problem. I see how having a shift within each bank can be valuable ... I'm just not convinced that it is revolutionary. Some folks really like that the 6-in-1 JAMMA switchers have a remote. I think the remote is a crappy way to switch games. My preference.

So maybe you can point out what part of my post was foolish, Cheffo, if you show me, I'll cop to it, unlike Ark.  

I dunno ... I think it was the part that said that the market was wide-open.

How many encoders have come and gone in the past decade and why ?

Some of them sucked, but many didn't.

While I think that ark was over-the-top with his attitude (and, really, when isn't he?), I do think that this is a fairly saturated market and, if you bring in a new product, you had best be on top of your game and bring something new.

I'm not saying that Bryan isn't bringing something new or isn't on top of his game, just that it is foolish for you to dismiss the naysayers just because they are obnoxious.

 

[CheffoJeffo]

Cheffo made a great suggestion, we are waiting for our harnesses to arrive... A great deal of thought went into trying to lay this out so it made sense.  For the harnesses, we wanted to make sure that it was easy to wire up.  There are 18 connections per joystick and once you get out to the end of the run, knowing if you have button1 or button 10 can be tough unless you have a clear system.  So what we did was to have 10 colors per 20 pin connector

That's because "Cheffo's right"(tm) ... at least some of the time.

The harnesses look great and I do think they are a serious selling point.

 

[Hoopz]

For those who haven't read Tiger-Heli's stuff, here's a link:

http://tigerheli.mameworld.info/encoder/index.htm

I don't recall exactly but perhaps the TOKN16/32 was the last he did.  MattP could tell us. Oh, wait...no he can't.   

[drventure]

Jeebus...

That Tiger Heli page is one complete treatise on the subject!

It's an encyclopedia of encoder info...

[Donkbaca]

That tiger heli link IS cool! Nice to know the old folks on here can post useful things instead of telling noobs they are wrong and that street fighter sucks...

[EVEGames]

Thanks. I'm kind new to this whole thing so I really appreciate your telling me that I am unaware of the market.

With just over 100 posts, I MUST be brand new to this whole thing too.  Ok.

Nowadays we get people chiming in who have never even read TH's reviews (which really is required if you want your opinion to be taken seriously), yet expect to be allowed to stand on the lawn shaking their fists.

"Expect to be allowed", eh?  You got some set on you, man.
Bryan posts a new product announcement with a great deal of pride that anyone can clearly pick up on.  He makes his case very clearly for what sets the product apart, and answers all questions directly and promptly.  Then Ark_ader chimes in and tries and tear the guy down for God knows what reason, and I have a visceral response to it.  I've never uttered an ill word about anyone in this forum until today, so be it.  Whether a market is wide open is a matter of opinion, which several others have since voiced in this same thread (are they foolish as well?)  Whether ark_ader can get the same product at a lower price from Andy or Randy as he said, that's a proveable fact, and my challenge stands.  Had ark_ader so much as held the product in his hand before spouting off about it, we wouldn't be having this conversation.  

I find it strange that you write "USB joystick device" as if that, in itself, is something revolutionary. If you think that is, then please shut up now and let the grown-ups talk.

Again, you got some set on you, man.  That's fine, we'll let that pass.

From your original thread:

The question that should be answered is what the advantages of the various options are. Just recognizing that they aren't clones of each other doesn't create any compelling reason to buy any of them and, to my mind, makes EVEGames' statement the most foolish, but not the most obnoxious (that honour goes to ark), statement in the thread.

Now that you know about some of the unique features like individual Shift functions, you change your tune and say it's the 'market' statement that makes my post foolish, instead of just admitting that you didn't take the time to read the 5th post before blasting me.

Bryan, I really do sincerely apologize for cluttering your announcement post with all this BS, and it will probably get me ostricized from the forum to stand up to Cheffo, but I don't like forum bullies who throw their 6,000-post "weight" around like that and tell supposedly junior forum members to shut up and let the grown-ups talk.  I can't just let that pass.  Let the consequences fall where they may.

[Donkbaca]

Nah Cheffo is harmless, just keep the discussion civil and write off his bitterness to the harsh Canadian winters he suffers through

[Xiaou2]

Trolls often stick together, so its no wonder who would side with Jeffo after the deed is done...

shut up now and let the grown-ups talk.

Exactly my point.  Theres no need for this kind of Trolling attitude.  Its simply here to incite a fight.   Its not helpful, nor kind, nor the kind of environment that should be on this site.

 Its called a "Slap in the face" post.   And if you think that getting slapped in the face is harmless... then lets see what happens to you after youve been slapped several times over.

 Its plain and simple 'bullying'.

 If he wanted the discussion to be civil, he should have chosen his words more respectfully.  He didnt.  He obviously wants to start a fight.

[EVEGames]

X2, to be fair, someone is going to point out that my original post to ark_ader was not kind either, and they're right.  As I said, it was a visceral response to someone trying to diminish a guy's brand new contribution to the hobby without even seeing a review or understanding what set it apart.  Anyway, I shouldn't have said it and I don't want to clutter up Armi's announcement any further please, EVEGames was wrong, now let's hear some reviews of this new product.

-EVEGames

[armi0024]

Ok... please?

Look we all have opinions and some share theirs more than others.  I suggest we open a AWF thread, the Arcade Wrestling Federation thread, and move discussions there?  In fairness I have had to sit in the corner a few times because I shared my opinion on other threads, but please, everyone here commenting obviously cares deeply about arcades, this business and what new products mean.  Otherwise you are just bored or wouldn't be commenting.

There has been some valuable, albeit less than positive comments that have lead to some better and informative discussion.  So if possible, please pull the punches and let's keep the thread clean, otherwise every thread I post in will end up in post hell!

[Xiaou2]

EVEGames, this may very well be a troll against me... and I dont care, but I will respond appropriately to set the record straight.

 I have posted my opinions about things I have not touched.  But this being with knowledge of the product, and a deep understanding of the nature of other related products.

 For example, a Leaf switch that has a hard 'bottom out point', will feel different than one that does not.  Its simple physics & comparison of the nearly identical physical counterparts.  You dont have to have the actual 'thing' to know its behavior.

 However, in Arks case, he spouts off without any understanding of the product or its differences... which isnt really right, and as you said, his response was very bitter, and seemed 'personal'.

 As for the market, I wouldnt know.  I dont sell the things.  Nor do I know the sheer number of mame type projects out there.  I do know that competition is good though.  But then again, sometimes cooperation can be better...  For example, if all the vendors pooled resources to get new Vector monitor made (or maybe a laser projector version?), remakes of complex controls such as Race Drivins FFB wheel + the sitdown shifter, a run of specialty plastics parts, etc.

 On a personal note, while I do not know technically if the thing gives the results that it claims... I do feel its imperative to have the utmost fastest responses possible.  A delay may be fine on certain games, but the more intense games really push you to the limits... and a split second delay can ruin everything.

 It may be a little more in cost, but for me, better control = better experience = worth every cent.

[CheffoJeffo]

I was harsh. I do apologize for that and will respect Bryan's polite request that I not carry arguments on any further in this thread.

EVEGames -- standing up to me won't get you ostracized -- probably just the opposite, particularly with the tone that I went with.