Poll: How do you 4 way?

[idsane]

As I try out different options I want to see what others are doing. Not liking my u360 for 4 way without restrictors, the magstick plus is great for 4 way by having a hard time using it some some 8 way games like robotron (can only hit diagonals when in 8 way), and haven't tried using 2 standard 8 ways with an offset dedicated 4 way yet. Thoughts? 

[Necro]

Do you have the switchable MagStick?  (MagStick plus I believe).

[scream1973]

Did you try the U360 with the top mount restrictors ?

[justinjstark]

So far my cabs haven't had a 4 way.  My first cab was 2 player with 2 8 way sticks.  My second cab was a 2 player bartop so there was not room for a 4 way.  My next cab is probably going to be a slim upright with 2 player controls and a 4 way in the middle.  I want so badly to play Ms. Pacman but I just cannot do it with an 8 way.

[pinballwizard79]

what does Dedicated 4 way w/ 8 way main sticks mean?

[DNA Dan]

It means you have 1-4 regular sticks that are always in 8 way. Then you have a separate stick for 4 way only. Your avatar looks like it falls in this category.

[leapinlew]

Dedicated 4 way vertical cab using a hardware restricted Wico leaf. It's the only way.

[jmohr1]

well it's only been mounted in a cardboard mockup, but whenever I get around to a real build, my CP will have 2x 8way with a single dedicated 4way centered.

[Paul Olson]

I chose other since I use a lot of original 4-ways with the modular panel. For a regular panel, though, I would suggest a Wico. I think it would be worth adding a separate 4-way in addition to the 2 standard 8 ways if you really like the old 4-way games. I just don't think you can get the feel with the combo sticks.

[Spacejack]

Girl, girl, tree, me. Doesn't everyone?

[mgb]

Dedicated 4 way vertical cab using a hardware restricted Wico leaf. It's the only way.

If I had the room, definately the best way

[HanoiBoi]

I've got the Mag Stik Plus.  I like the convenience and I like that I don't have to reach across buttons to a dedicated stick.

I also have a somewhat narrow CP at about 24" that I have set up for 2 players.

I can't speak for other joysticks, but I can even play QBert without issue with these things.

[RetroBorg]

You left out:

Switchable 4/8 way via servo controller



http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=104762.0;all

[CapriRS302]

I use the mag sticks that can be switched from the bottom.  I just left the bottom of my control panel open (no one sees it anyway) and I can easily reach under there when I need to switch.

[DirtyDachshunds]

configured U360 for me.  Maybe not the absolute best, but very practical.

[idsane]

Do you have the switchable MagStick?  (MagStick plus I believe)

I do have one, but as I mentioned, I don't know if I like it for 8 way b/c it hits diagonals preferentially.

Did you try the U360 with the top mount restrictors

I think those look ugly and will confuse kids and guests. I should mention that I am trying to make this very user friendly.

Dedicated 4 way vertical cab using a hardware restricted Wico leaf. It's the only way.

Who sells these? pic? Are they like the leaf pro that GGG sells?

For people that marked other, what do you have?

For people with the dedicated 4 way, do you always have it centered and up top or somewhere else? Is having it placed high up top (like I see with many cabs) an annoyance vs normal low placement?

[jmohr1]

My 4-way (at least in the plans so far) is centered and about 3 3/4" from the bottom of the panel and the two 8-ways are going to be mounted about 5" from the bottom (panel is 10" tall in total for scale). With the cardboard mockup it feels great, but haven't really gotten to play with the set-up yet.

[Cynicaster]

I just finished my cabinet a few weeks ago, and it includes two 8-ways, a dedicated 4-way, and a trackball.  When I first assembled the CP, I thought the trackball looked pretty slick in the center, but admittedly my first reaction was that the 4-way (which is kind of in no-man's land towards the player 1 side) cluttered up the look a bit. 

The stick is a Happ Ultimate, which I stupidly bought before researching, and it seems like 80% of people hate it.  Still, I have no regrets whatsoever.  I would say that out of the embarrassing number of hours I've spent playing on this cabinet so far, it's probably been close to 50/50 between the 8- and 4-way (for games that use joysticks, that is).  I really like the good ol' maze games (Pac-Man, Ms. Pac-Man, Mouse Trap, Lady Bug) as well as other 4-way games like Donkey Kong, Frogger, Q*Bert, and Qix. 

I'm not sure why the Ultimate gets such a bad rap; personally I think it works great for every game I've tried so far except Frogger (because in that game you have to rapidly tap the joystick for discrete "hops" rather than just hold the joystick in the desired direction, and admittedly the Ultimate's throw is a bit on the long side).  I guess it all comes down to what you're used to, and honestly, I never had the opportunity to play most of these games on the original cabinets so I'm a clean slate.  I will say that I never find myself cursing the game for moving my character in a direction I don't want (try playing Frogger with an 8-way... ugh).

Also, for some reason, when playing 4-way games (especially the maze games), I prefer to reverse the roles of my right and left hands so that my right does the controlling and the left hits the buttons (if any).  I think I developed that tendency through growing up playing these classic-style games on Atari 2600, which differs from just about every system since the NES in that you do directional controls with your right hand. 

   

 

   

[mgb]

For 4-way, I've tried the route of the fighter setup with 2 8-ways (Happ Comps) and a dedicated 4-way and I was not thrilled reaching for the 4-way.
for my cp now I feel that 2 Sanwa JLWs are the best of both worlds.
The left one is strictly 8-way with a round restrictor and the right one is left in 4-way most of the time and then I just have to switch it into 8-way when needed.
The JLWs are great in either 4-way or 8-way.

[TOK]

I have Suzo Inductives. They are electronically 4/8 way switchable, but I just leave them in 8 way mode. The feel of them is so crisp that even cab newbies have no problem with 4 way games on them.

[idsane]

Looks like the voting is pretty equal but dedicated 4 way took the lead. I acted out as if I had a 4 way on the top of the CP, and could not stand it. Does anyone place the dedicated 4 way to the left and a little up from the main 8 way? I would put it directly in the center of the CP, but I want to put a TB there. Any thoughts?

[armi0024]

I love this post, for switchable joysticks, I like JLW's and the MagStik plus(I know we don't sell it but it's cool)

However, to be honest, my latest favorite is just to through JLF in with an octagon gate.  I'm not a competitive player, but IMHO you can learn very quickly to play 4 or 8 way games on an octagon....

[LeedsFan]

I love this post, for switchable joysticks, I like JLW's and the MagStik plus(I know we don't sell it but it's cool)

However, to be honest, my latest favorite is just to through JLF in with an octagon gate.  I'm not a competitive player, but IMHO you can learn very quickly to play 4 or 8 way games on an octagon....

Problem is the JLF does not work in 4-way correctly. You can still hit the diagonals, even in 4-way mode.

[DillonFoulds]

MFFF

[robertsig]

Ultimarc J-Stik (JLW) left in 4-way mode 95% of the time.

[mgb]

Problem is the JLF does not work in 4-way correctly. You can still hit the diagonals, even in 4-way mode.

I've definately noticed that on my old cp which used a JLF as a 4-way. It was good enough but the JLF just feels small to me. The JLW is much beefier.

[armi0024]

Problem is the JLF does not work in 4-way correctly. You can still hit the diagonals, even in 4-way mode.

I'm actually saying I like using the Octagon restrictor, then I never have to change it. I just go in 1 bump increments for 8 way and 2 for 4 way.  If you get the hang of it you can also use it for games that use 4 way on diagonals.  I'm not going for any gaming records, but it's a nice way to have both functions with no adjustment.  We will have a few more joysticks with octagon restrictors in the near future to allow for this.

@MGB: The JLW is definitely a tougher stick, maybe we should make a octo gate for that

[DNA Dan]

When are you guys going to have a servo or motor solution for an automatic switching joystick?

Even with an octagon, the 4way guys aren't happy AND the 8way guys are disgruntled. The best solution is a true 4 and 8 switching joystick.

I tried to prototype this but I need a CNC to make the tracks for the posts (Using a U360 as my model). The idea is to basically use a spur gear from an RC car. I think it came out to about a 32p 72 tooth gear. You just need to mount a small motor next to the joystick base with a pinion gear that lines up with the spur gear. This seems like it would last longer than a servo that constantly needs to hold the position. A motor can be kept in a brake state. This would need limit switches and all that, but it seems very doable if someone has the ability to machine a Sanwa JLW restrictor with actual GEAR teeth on the edges.

[armi0024]

DNA Dan: Some 8 way guys may be disgruntled but those are one of our highest selling products.  When I added them in January we blew through 70 in two weeks. There are a lot of people that really like the 8 way octo-plate, it just depends on the game and what you are looking for.  

The basic problem is how do you do a stick that works for everyone.  You could do an extremely expensive haptic feedback restriction system and solve everyone's problem at a few hundred a stick...

I know other people were working on this, and there are some customs, the question is not when, we had already built some prototypes before thread started(and we weren't the first), the question is which joystick.... and what features..... 2 way, 4 way, 8 way, Octagon, circle, square, etc etc  

The JLW is a nice stick but there are some issues with it and not everyone likes the ball tops(I know they come in bat tops too but those are actually becoming harder to find for reasonable pricing).  The knock off JLW's have been around for a few years, and another vendor just started offering those.  The form factor is right as the restrictor already has the 4/8 way adjustment, but a lot of fighters are looking for octagons or circles, and we are concerned about the construction of the knockoffs vs the real JLW's.(I'm not saying we found problems, we just have concerns)  It is also really important ot take into account the forces applied by the players, to really get that nice feel you need to move and provide a way of "locking it down"

Then you get into the whole "how do you do the actuator" debate.  The solution in the video posted here is great! and we will have ball top sticks for that stick shortly if you wanted a ball top, but I have a sneaky suspicion switching joysticks are not as far off as people might think.....

[DNA Dan]

I hear what you're saying, obviously there are many facets to this. However what's the alternative? Frankenpanels? Removable joysticks? That won't really work with the way people are constructing control panels with artwork. I think the future for this lies is some type of motorized device that attaches to the joystick base. If it were made universal with custom restrictor plates you might actually be able to capture a variety of joysticks. IMO the market is made up of mostly MAME folks who are looking for an "all in one" solution. The purists are going to demand original equipment no matter how good any 4/8 way switching joystick works - even it it's their favorite repro stick.

I know there are lots of costs in the design and implementation of such a sophisticated joystick like this, but even at $100 or more, I would buy it over having to buy two joysticks that essentially do the same thing. I'll be your first customer!

[armi0024]

I hear you, and the choices are tough.  This is very much an opinion thing, like so many other things here, and it's tough to design something that fit the diversity of opinions.  And trust me, the variety of opinions on the forums is high, the variety of opinions in my inbox is astronomical.  Designs I thought were solid from other vendors, I get people upset with them and looking for alternatives.  I'm not saying that like we are special, I'm sure other vendors get some of the same spillage from us.

I've got a few projects on going right now, one product arrival announcement that will hopefully be posted int he next 3-4 days and one brand new product announcement that will be posted in the next week(just waiting for beta testing and some final measurements).  This solution is not one of those, but it is in the queue, and not the 2-3 year queue

[RandyT]

When are you guys going to have a servo or motor solution for an automatic switching joystick?

I've had a working servo switching  prototype for months.  The issue that keeps me from moving forward with it is primarily customer expectations.  Such a setup is not inexpensive, and the parts can range from reasonable to crazy in price.  Customers in this hobby tend to expect "reasonable".  Servo parts in that price range tend not to be very forgiving, durable or long lasting.  When an individual does something like the setup in the video, that's great, but they don't have the same expectations from the end result as those who pay for a finished item.  If it stops working, they don't say "it was cool while it lasted" and go about fixing it up, they just want it to work because they paid for a solution, and someone had better have an explanation as to why it quit in the first place.  So while I won't say that it's off the table, it makes me nervous basing a product like this on the quality of parts people would consider to be affordable.  Just to give a little background on why I feel this way, I tried several servos, and in light stress testing, one managed to melt down, and another twisted the gears off the motor shaft.

Even with an octagon, the 4way guys aren't happy AND the 8way guys are disgruntled. The best solution is a true 4 and 8 switching joystick.

All of them have their place, but I do agree with you that anything but a true 4-way and a true 8-way will involve a compromise of some nature.  Switchable sticks require a square gate, which truncates the throw of the stick in 8-way mode and isn't great for anything but Q-bert.  Rotating it creates the diamond shape needed for the 4-way, but the throw becomes longer by geometrical necessity.  As some crossover between cardinal direction isn't the end of the world, you see this being done intentionally in order to make the 8-way movement less truncated.  But doing so, exacerbates the "long throw" complaint registered by players about 4-way sticks.  So in essence, a rotatable restrictor ends up being a mediocre 4-way and a mediocre 8-way, but it at least does both.  The octagonal restrictor is also a compromise, but it is a bird of a different color.  It gives you a limited ability to guide the stick somewhat in the desired direction, so long as you aren't too far off, because it will just as happily guide you to a diagonal as a cardinal direction.  But I think it's something that can be learned, and if you are trying to do both, it should work ok.  Being that the throw is the same, whether used for 4 or 8-way, you don't get the reverse-ideal of the rotated restrictor, but you do have to make sure that the stick you are limiting in this fashion actually has a throw you feel good about in both types of use.  The sticks which commonly use these types of restrictors may not stack up to the player's expectations in both 4 and 8-way use, so that needs to be considered.  And even though I like the 8-way restriction on some 8-way games, on a game like Robotron or Time Pilot, where smooth, round sweeping motions are expected, the "rat-tat-tat" of the 8-way octagonal restrictor might be maddening to some.

So regardless of what others might say is the best approach to the problem of not being able to have both, it is a very personal choice which dictates the approach taken.  The absolute best is your favorite 8-way next to your favorite 4-way.  Everything else requires a fair bit of experimentation and soul-searching.

RandyT

[severdhed]

Dedicated vertical 4 way cabinet with sanwa jlw for me..tried  many other options, u360s, dedicated 4 way stick on a frankenpanel, but the dedicated cabinet is by far the best way for me.

[DirtyDachshunds]

My  perfered 4-way would be with 3 other women 

[TopJimmyCooks]

. . .  I tried several servos, and in light stress testing, one managed to melt down, and another twisted the gears off the motor shaft.

RandyT

I have a (very) little background in the RC/robotics scene, mostly what rubbed off my rc expert brother when we were kids.  Those RC'ish servos are highly evolved to do what they do, which is not to brake against the force of a long lever (joystick). 

This is a good application for a worm gear axial to the motor shaft.  you can still use a small hobby motor, put both joys on the same shaft if you want, etc.  Even a plastic worm gear and rack train would provide high resistance to unwanted restrictor spin, without any strain on the motor.  I will look around tonight for a suitable gear train.  The ring gear for the restrictor itself would probably need to be laminated to the restrictor somehow. 

[armi0024]

I have to revise, I just found a new favorite.  On a whim I put some of the new 1.5" Wico ball tops repros on a JLW bat top shaft... the result is not a leaf, but the feel the weight, the reaction, the low shaft...it's the closest thing to my original Ms Pac joystick I've felt outside of the original.  The JLW has identical hole placement to the new Ms Pac/Galaga cabs, I was thinking of doing our own adapter plate for the originals, but the first thing I need to do is get more 1.5" ball tops!

[Blanka]

BTW, mapping a 8-way in software is also pretty good. MAME allows pretty good settings to make most 4 ways playable with an 8-way. Especially Q-bert works perfect with software mapping an 8-way.

[Malenko]

My  perfered 4-way would be with 3 other women  

Damn it. I was gonna say "I'm still working on the 3way" but you beat me to it. Well played sir.



Actual answer, I use an 8way

[idsane]

Thanks for all the replies. I decided the u360 isn't going to work for me so if anyone is interested I have it for sale in the buy/sell section.

[Necro]

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