New Product: Ultimarc GoldLeaf High-performance Pushbuttons

[AndyWarne]

Full details of these new buttons on http://www.ultimarc.com/goldleaf.html

These are available in the store.

[Hoopz]

 

Great job Andy!

[Vigo]

Nice! I like the price as well. I think these are going to be my pushbutton of choice when I have project money again.

[Dexter]

Great product as usual Andy!

[AndyWarne]

Are these any different than the ones Deal Extreme is selling?

These are made specially to our design so the answer is definitely yes they are different but if you have a link I can compare them.

[SavannahLion]

Oddly enough, I can't get into the order page. I'll check it from home later.

I don't see an option for the start buttons. Are these visually identical to the existing start buttons or is there an option to get the start buttons?

[D_Harris]

I guess since these are new and don't appear to be adjustable, these questions may take some time to get answers to, but any idea how the button resistance, spring-back speed and overall travel distance compares to original leaf switch buttons?

They look nice and simple. I'm tempted to just pick up a couple dozen for the two panels I am working on now since the price is decent.

Also, just to be sure, these will fit 1-1/8" button holes, correct?

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[AndyWarne]

Oddly enough, I can't get into the order page. I'll check it from home later.

I don't see an option for the start buttons. Are these visually identical to the existing start buttons or is there an option to get the start buttons?

We dont have start buttons, you would need to use the micro-switch start buttons (which incidentally we now stock in black as well as white).

[Samstag]

Can you add a picture of the red buttons?  And any chance there will be a dark blue in the future?

[AndyWarne]

Can you add a picture of the red buttons?  And any chance there will be a dark blue in the future?

Yes dark blue will definitely be a future addition.
I have updated the picture on the website.

[AndyWarne]

I guess since these are new and don't appear to be adjustable, these questions may take some time to get answers to, but any idea how the button resistance, spring-back speed and overall travel distance compares to original leaf switch buttons?

They look nice and simple. I'm tempted to just pick up a couple dozen for the two panels I am working on now since the price is decent.

Also, just to be sure, these will fit 1-1/8" button holes, correct?

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Travel is 3mm. Spring pressure 45 grams. I am not sure how you would measure spring-back speed but the mass of the moving part of the button is very low so should be fast despite the low spring pressure. Yes they fit standard 1 1/8 (28mm) hole.

[NoBullMAME]

These totally look like the cheap Chinese knock-off, even being available only in light blue. However, the knock-offs look just like the real things to me (at least in photos), plus Andy's reputation is simply stellar, so I have no doubt about what he's saying.
Still, I'd love to see a comparison between these than the cheap stuff. If anyone orders one and has the time, please post something.

I'm sure they are made overseas (most everything is now), but if Andy made the right changes they could be great.

[opt2not]

Nice one Andy!  I've been thinking about how to find japanese push-button equivalents in concave form for a while now.  I like the sanwa button's soft-ness, and short travel distance, but I do like the concave buttons better. Especially when connect to leaf-switches.

These totally look like the cheap Chinese knock-off, even being available only in light blue. However, the knock-offs look just like the real things to me

This is a weird statement. "Looks like knock-offs, but knock-offs look real...".  So you're saying these look real then? And what is the "real" you're talking about, the plunger design, or the internal switch?  I don't know what other "cheap-stuff" you're talking about, but as far as I've seen, there isn't any buttons out there that have integral minature gold-plated leaf switches that look like these.

Regardless, Andy's product are always of the highest-product-quality. He's a stickler for it, and you can tell by any of his wares.

The proper comparison would be how these feel against regular leaf-switch buttons, or japanese convex buttons, which is what this product is directly competing with.

**edit**  Ah, I've been made aware of what knock-offs you're talking about now.
I will now sit Foot-in-Mouth.

[Xiaou2]

 My only concern with these type of leafs, is that if you have to pretty much bottom out the switch to get activation, you constantly are going to get a shock from the impact.

 That wouldnt be the same as the 'Bouncing on Air' feeling of playing a game of Asteroids.
(for those who know better than to bottom out a leaf)

[D_Harris]

I guess since these are new and don't appear to be adjustable, these questions may take some time to get answers to, but any idea how the button resistance, spring-back speed and overall travel distance compares to original leaf switch buttons?

They look nice and simple. I'm tempted to just pick up a couple dozen for the two panels I am working on now since the price is decent.

Also, just to be sure, these will fit 1-1/8" button holes, correct?

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Travel is 3mm. Spring pressure 45 grams. I am not sure how you would measure spring-back speed but the mass of the moving part of the button is very low so should be fast despite the low spring pressure. Yes they fit standard 1 1/8 (28mm) hole.

Ok. The part that really confuses me is the following:

No Hysteresis. This is the difference in button depression for the contact close and open points. On these buttons the position is the same, resulting in maximum repeated actuation performance. On micro-switch buttons this "dead" distance can be up to 1.5 mm.

Now this is my basic understanding of button, whether leaf or switch...

A) There is the button travel.

B) There is the switch travel.

C) There is the contact travel.

The switch travel will be the same as the button travel if the switch is under tension from the button to begin with, but if not it will only travel at/with the end of the button's travel.

Now if the contacts are a part of the switch they move together with the full travel of the switch. If they are not one piece with the switch, then they will travel only at the last part of the switch travel. They cannot be stationary in order for them to work. But that appears to be what your summary is saying.

So am I correct in assuming that what you mean is that the "open" and "close" of the circuit occurs at the exact same part of the button/switch/contact travel? (I don't think that original leafs do that).

*** Either way, in order to compare the Goldleaf with original leafs without having them in hand is to find out A) what the button travel is for a original leaf, as well as B)what the "normal" range of "spring pressure" would be for the original leaf switches.(And this would probably vary greatly). 

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[wweumina]

Bugger, they look good.

Will you be offering minipac/ground harnesses?

[AndyWarne]

So am I correct in assuming that what you mean is that the "open" and "close" of the circuit occurs at the exact same part of the button/switch/contact travel? (I don't think that original leafs do that).

Thats exactly what I mean and an original leaf switch would do that. Thats why people like them, and also why people like the Sanwa switches, which are the closest to these, albeit the Sanwas have convex tops. I dont know whether the Sanwas use gold contacts.

The comment about "knock-offs" is strange. As far as I am aware a "knock-off" is an inferior copy of another product. I am not aware of any other supplier of this design of switch, ie a button with a concave top and integral switch with threaded fitting.

[Turnarcades]

It seems that even though there's obviously been a lot of focus on detail in the design and final product description by Andy for those who are very picky about their products, there's still a few pedants in the midst. You don't like it? Build your friggin own.

[Ginsu Victim]

I might need some of these for my next project. They look awesome.

[Bludgeon]

Nice stuff.

I wonder if these are shallow enough to work in a Madcatz TE.  I don't think there's a way to get any other concave buttons in there before and these look like they could work.  I should try that.

[D_Harris]

So am I correct in assuming that what you mean is that the "open" and "close" of the circuit occurs at the exact same part of the button/switch/contact travel? (I don't think that original leafs do that).

Thats exactly what I mean and an original leaf switch would do that.

Yeah, original leafs should do that, but don't always, because of bounce and perhaps spring-back of the shorter leaf on return.

So it's great that you've come out with another option.

By the way. For clarification, I re-worded what you wrote:

No Hysteresis. This is the difference in button height at the point the contacts come together and the point they depart. On these buttons this position is the same, resulting in maximum repeated actuation performance. On micro-switch buttons this "dead" distance can be up to 1.5 mm.

 

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[Gray_Area]

I would like to see inside one of these.

[emphatic]

I would like to see inside one of these.

+1. I'd love to know if the plunger could be changed to an COMPETITION/SANWA style one.

[taylormadelv]

I am very curious about these buttons. I would love to see/hear a video of these in operation and some more pics of the actual switches involved. Is it "easier" to push these buttons, "less finger pressure" to activate the switch? Just less travel? I would like to get some more info on these if/when possible.

[AndyWarne]

A typical microswitch button would have a spring pressure of 120-150 grams. These are 45 Grams.

This is what the contacts look like:

[RandyT]

A typical microswitch button would have a spring pressure of 120-150 grams.

I think it's important to define "typical" as used in this statement.  Current Suzo/HAPP buttons, as shipped from HAPP with stock E-Switch ~40g switches, actuate at a total of ~92 grams, which is significantly lower than the numbers stated.  Any other lower force microswitches used in the same button, will reduce that overall resistance by the amount of the difference in switch resistance.  Because there are so many different switch, and pushbutton spring combinations out there, there really is no such thing as a "typical microswitch button", and very, very few used for gaming will be in that high range.  For example, I can point to at least one production microswitch pushbutton with a total actuation force of only ~52g, but for reasons of decorum, won't in this thread.

Apologies for the interruption.

[AndyWarne]

Well thats strange because I just re-checked a button sourced from Suzo-Happ (made by I-L) and it came out at 98 grams without any switch fitted at all. With E-Switch 124 grams.

[jimmy2x2x]

Another fine looking product Andy, can't wait to try them out.

[Nacimroc]

What is the maximum debth of these. i.e. the max thickness of panel the can fit. Although the ultralux buttons are fine, the lock nut of the classic happ buttons and player 1 and 2 buttons only ever seem to grab a bit of 1 thread of the button when I install them on my 18mm panel with 5mm thick acrylic. 

I know you say, well use a thiner MDF, but mounting joysticks I prefer a thicker MDF. I could use my router to make the debth thinner, but I see it as just a design flaw. Most people doing this as a hobby will use the same thickness wood for the CP as the cab itself. So having to buy a thinner wood just to suit buttons that are too short is so frustrating.

(Its just something that always bugged me)

With that said, I do think these are great and will order a set to try.

[RandyT]

Well thats strange because I just re-checked a button sourced from Suzo-Happ (made by I-L) and it came out at 98 grams without any switch fitted at all. With E-Switch 124 grams.

How does one check actuation strength on a button with no switch in it?  By definition, there is no actuation sans the part that actuates.  It may be, however, that the I-L pushbuttons have a much heavier return spring than the standard Suzo/Happ branded buttons.  That's why I felt it was important to state which buttons you were getting those numbers from, rather than using the word "typical".  Thanks for clearing that up.

[Xiaou2]

Well, all I can say is that these are more like a hybrid than a typical classic leafswitch.

 It looks like a laptop key mechanism...  which heck, I like laptop keys for typing.. but, its nothing like an old leafswitch.

 With a true leafswitch, you get high fire rates from being able to bounce on the activation point with very little effort, and no momentum stoppage.

 Its easiest to represent this in a somewhat dirty way...

 When having intimate relations with a woman:

a) Bouncy Spring loaded Bed

  As you thrust and connect, the energy is transfered to her and she is forced into compressing the springs.  The springs then do all the work of returning her back to the original position.  Once her mass is in motion, its easy to keep a rapid pace of thrusts, timed to the spring return.

b) A two inch foam pad

  With the foam pad, it has limited absorbency and depth.  When thrusting, it pushes her past the maximum depth, slamming her backside into the floor.  The time it takes from her slamming to a complete stop.. and her slower return... means that its harder to maintain a speedy repeatable pace.


 A traditional leaf may take more activation force due to compressing the spring.  However, once the energy of the springs is at a set level... its easy to use the spring to set up a nice vibrational bounce pattern, with a hair trigger of depth.


 Andys leaf button, is more or less a modern equivalent alternative to a microswitch.  The difference being that its less noisy, and takes less activation force.

 Micros usually have a certain activation force, to keep players from accidentally hitting a button... as too sensitive a button could be a real nightmare with accidental activations.  It also helps in charging up the return spring for a faster reset.  However, the cost of this is player fatigue in rapidfire situations, as well as increased noise levels.

 Andys may have an advantage to the micros... but if anyone did a side by side 60 second speed test of a real leaf -vs- andys modified leaf, the differences would be "landslide" apparent.

[Vigo]

Well, all I can say is that these are more like a hybrid than a typical classic leafswitch.

 It looks like a laptop key mechanism...  which heck, I like laptop keys for typing.. but, its nothing like an old leafswitch.

 With a true leafswitch, you get high fire rates from being able to bounce on the activation point with very little effort, and no momentum stoppage.

 Its easiest to represent this in a somewhat dirty way...

 When having intimate relations with a woman:

a) Bouncy Spring loaded Bed

  As you thrust and connect, the energy is transfered to her and she is forced into compressing the springs.  The springs then do all the work of returning her back to the original position.  Once her mass is in motion, its easy to keep a rapid pace of thrusts, timed to the spring return.

b) A two inch foam pad

  With the foam pad, it has limited absorbency and depth.  When thrusting, it pushes her past the maximum depth, slamming her backside into the floor.  The time it takes from her slamming to a complete stop.. and her slower return... means that its harder to maintain a speedy repeatable pace.


 A traditional leaf may take more activation force due to compressing the spring.  However, once the energy of the springs is at a set level... its easy to use the spring to set up a nice vibrational bounce pattern, with a hair trigger of depth.


 Andys leaf button, is more or less a modern equivalent alternative to a microswitch.  The difference being that its less noisy, and takes less activation force.

 Micros usually have a certain activation force, to keep players from accidentally hitting a button... as too sensitive a button could be a real nightmare with accidental activations.  It also helps in charging up the return spring for a faster reset.  However, the cost of this is player fatigue in rapidfire situations, as well as increased noise levels.

 Andys may have an advantage to the micros... but if anyone did a side by side 60 second speed test of a real leaf -vs- andys modified leaf, the differences would be "landslide" apparent.

Pff....thanks for the product review of a product you never tried. 

I think most people care about button responsiveness much more that button mashing rate for general gaming. Of course there a few classics that are the speed exception, but I have a feeling the speed that these goldleaf switches would get would do okay against a maintained leaf and easily beat any unmaintained leaf.

With how much traditional leaf switches can lose their tension, tarnish, and take up more CP real estate, I think I wouldn't lose sleep over making the switch to simply avoid the general maintenance involved with a traditional leaf switch. 

[AndyWarne]

The bed analogy is amusing but not really relevant. Any spring mechanism will have a natural frequency, including the bed. In the bed situation you can adjust the actuation frequency to match the resonant frequency of the bed. That is all good fun!
But playing a game the last thing you want is a resonant frequency as you are playing at all kinds of random pressing frequencies. What you need is a low sprung weight (as its called in car suspension design) to minimise the effects of any resonant frequency.
I am convinced that the main benefit of leaf switches is the lack of hysteresis, and these switches have that attribute.
I would be the first to admit they are not  revolutionary design, in fact the type of switch is similar to the well-respected Sanwa buttons but the physical shape is not the same as the Sanwa.

[ark_ader]

The bed analogy is amusing but not really relevant. Any spring mechanism will have a natural frequency, including the bed. In the bed situation you can adjust the actuation frequency to match the resonant frequency of the bed. That is all good fun!
But playing a game the last thing you want is a resonant frequency as you are playing at all kinds of random pressing frequencies. What you need is a low sprung weight (as its called in car suspension design) to minimise the effects of any resonant frequency.
I am convinced that the main benefit of leaf switches is the lack of hysteresis, and these switches have that attribute.
I would be the first to admit they are not  revolutionary design, in fact the type of switch is similar to the well-respected Sanwa buttons but the physical shape is not the same as the Sanwa.

Can I replace these buttons with my X Arcade, and if so, will they be as good as traditional leaf buttons?

Better response for games like Asteroids and Star Castle and reduce the noise factor?

[kowal]

i use dynamometer
 real force (switch +spring button) is
80g on iL buttons +cherry switch
on eswitch somethings like 100g
sanwa 30g
seimitsu 50g
X-arcade 145g

[eds1275]

These look pretty slick. I'll be picking some up to try when I order my other supplies for my cab.

If I get a bunch of different pushbuttons, would anyone care to listen to a recording of the different clicking sounds and volumes? I have the space and equipment to do it in a controlled environment. I won't be ordering anything for a bit until business picks up again but it's a project I have interest in doing.

[Gray_Area]

The bed analogy is amusing but not really relevant.

And absolutely bizarre, to boot. Besides, I thought X was a kung fu MF.

But anyways, yes, why don't you buy one and compare, X?

[DNA Dan]

I just got one of these to try against several other buttons I recently purchased in trying to determine which ones I want to use in my cab. I must say, the action is lighter than an original leaf switch. I am impartial to a real leaf switch, however once I tried these I was quite impressed. I get what others are saying about a real leaf having more "energy" throwback to it. You can really "float" an original leaf switch. The buttons were very quiet compared to a microswitch, about the same or slightly louder than a real leaf switch. For me I'd like to see two things, first is the length isn't that long. I have them mounted in a piece of 3/4" plywood and the nut is only holding by a few threads. Second, I think what it needs is a stiffer spring. Although it can't replace the tension of the real deal, it just feels too light to me on the actuation. If I don't go for the real deal, this will be my choice for buttons. IMO it beats everything else I have tried. Great job Andy.

[Xiaou2]

And absolutely bizarre, to boot. Besides, I thought X was a kung fu MF.

 Heheh.  All things physical are relative 

But anyways, yes, why don't you buy one and compare, X?

 You dont have to buy a tricycle and compare it to your bicycle, to know it wont operate the same way that you want / need.

 What Andy has done has more or less tried to solve the issues common with microswitches...
and for that, he has done fairly well.

 But in regards to replicating the true reason for having leaf buttons... he just does not get it.
There is a specific feel and feedback that his design will not be able to replicate... and will be inferior to a real leaf button in games that require a lot of rapidfire action.

 While its true, that Leafs are really only needed on a certain population of games... Those games play like crap without them.  So its nice to have at least one or two real leaf buttons to use for them.  Pretty much a necessity for those of us who knows the difference.

[polaris]

why is it when people release products with the word leaf in them , chumps kick off about them not being genuine leaf switches when nobody ever claimed they were