What is going on here?

[Apollo]

Look I know I'm fairly new on the scene here but for pitys sake what is going on here?
I am building a cab with a 26" arcade monitor ( lucky for me, I got it cheap ). My controls are 2X8 way joysticks with 6 buttons each, 1X4 way joystick with 3 buttons and a couple of admin buttons. The CP looks clean and I can play 95%+ of all games.
What is up with all this dual trackball, spinner, 4 player, 20 admin button CP's that people are building?
I just don't get it they look totally crazy, I mean what is up with this?
Case in point below. I know there's a lot of work gone in to this but come on.

http://cohort.cc/uaiicp/images/CPUA2%20010_jpg.jpg

I don't really want to slag this off but is this not getting out of hand? Or do I just have not enough mates to build a 4 player panel lol. Or can people just not live without Arkanoid, Tempest and Missile Command?

[paigeoliver]

EXACTLY.

I always do my best to fight that kind of panel every chance I get. It doesn't look like a real game.

And also. What is up with everyone who MUST have 4 player panels, spinners, and trackballs, but then don't even have a 4-way joystick.

Those panels might play a zillion games, but they are pretty confusing to people who just walk up and try to play.

And I never really got the fascination with 4-player machines. The extra expense involved is enough to pretty much make a second 2 player machine. And really, how often did you ever actually play a 4-player machine in the arcade that actually had more than two people on it? I certainly never have. Although I do recall once playing a 6 player X-Men that had a total of 3 people on it.

I have two finished cabinets, and two unfinished ones, and none of them have more than one control type on the panel. (With the exception of the pseudo-tron panel I am making for my swappable panels cabinet, as that has a top fire joy and a spinner, but that is how the real game was too!).

Of course I am totally in the minority here.

I also prefer my cabinets to look as original as possible. No custom marquees or non-original sideart. The only changes I ever make in that respect is to switch to plain black control panel overlays.

I also firmly believe that one Wico leaf switch stick is worth 2 dozen of Happ's microswitch ones. I have also used all kinds of different "4-Way" sticks, and they are almost all junk except for the original Wico 4-ways, the Ms. Pac/Galaga replacement one, and the Ms Pac/Galaga one that actually comes in the reunion machine (which is a different stick, not sure how different, but the actual machines have shiny balls, and the replacement sticks are textured).


I also prefer 19" monitors (or 21" VGA ones, which are basically the same size). Bigger monitors make most games harder, except for fighting games, and that is only because you don't really have to keep track of much onscreen with them.

I don't like most hand built cabinets. I guess I have looked at too many real ones, and the home made ones usually look "wrong" to me.

Of course my biggest pet peeve is refitting classic 19" cabinets with oversized control panels (or God forbid 4 player panels). Even if the person does a killer instal job, it still looks "wrong" to me, because they never came that way in the first place.

Ok. I think I have pretty much insulted everyone here, so time to shut up.  

[Isometric Bacon]

I agree totally. When I built my cab, I wanted it to look simple and effective. Simply 2 - 8 way sticks, and 6 player buttons a side. Player 1 and 2 start buttons, and nothing else on the CP. The coin buttons are located in the coin doir, and admin pause/exit buttons will most likely be hidden under the CP.

I've also decided to make it so the actual control panel doesn't exceed around an inch from the outside of the Cabinet... otherwise it just never fails to look tacky.

[paigeoliver]

I always thought it would be funny to have a contest for the worst Mame cabinet. Maybe with the winner getting a new cabinet so that they can try again.

Of course that would only result in a lot of feelings getting hurt.

Although if I ever got a big 33" showcase cabinet, then I would have a few extra controls. I would do it like this. (2player only layout).

4-Way,8-way,6buttons ----Trackball ---- 4-way,8-Way,6buttons.

You can install a 4-way right next to an 8-way and let them share the same button bank (and wire them as the same stick). I used to have a cabinet setup that way. It works nicely, and allows you to switch on the fly if you want to (which I would often do during puzzle games).

[REBIRTH]

First off, I understand where you guys are coming from because I too didn't want too many buttons on my CP so I stuck to a 2 player CP.  I "had" to have a trackball (love missle command),  "had" to have a spinner (love Tempest/Arkanoid), and "had" to have a 4-way joystick - and the whole reason I went with a rotating CP design was so I didn't have to put allthose on one cluttered panel.

Secondly, beauty is in the eye of the Mamer...  Some guys are into those big CP's, like having 4 man games.  So I would lay off a bit about it "getting out of hand" it not looking like a "real" game.  May be out of hand for you (and for my taste too   ) but doesn't mean that the person who is using the big CP isn't loving it to death.  That is what I love about these boards and building a Mame cab - you can do whatever the heck you want.  So if you want 934 buttons on one CP, more power to you!

[Hoagie_one]

I dont want the 4 player cab but I do want access to trackball adn spinner games.  Love em.  I'm thinking about doing a normal 2 player cab with one extra 4 way and then making some sort of mini CP that can plug into the current CP and set on top.  Still working it out in my head.

[CCM]

And I never really got the fascination with 4-player machines. The extra expense involved is enough to pretty much make a second 2 player machine.

So you're saying that the cost of 2 extra joysticks and 8 extra buttons is more than a second cabinet, computer, monitor, etc...?

That being said I do agree somewhat, some of the 4-player mega panels are a bit cluttered.  

I have 2 8-way joystcks with 6 buttons each, 1 4-way stick with no buttons (uses same as player one 8-way), a trackball with 2-buttons (mouse buttons), a spinner and 3 admin buttons.  My cabinet has been finished (if they are ever really finished) for about a year and I can honestly say I could have done without the spinner, I just don't use it very often.   I do however use all the other controls on a regular basis.

On the other hand who are we to say how many controls someone should have, if they have the money and that's what they want, I say more power to them.   It all depends on what games you like and how often you have groups of people at your house to play.  I have a friend that wants me to build him a cab with a 4-player panel.  He loves games like gauntlet, x-men, and tmnt, and he regularly has people over...

All in all it's just personal preference...

[Frostillicus]

Here's my experience - initially there is an interest to play every game possible ("I don't want to leave out my 3rd and 4th best friends!!") So you build a huge freakin panel. My first one was the ugliest, biggest monstrosity this side of the mason-dixon line.  I'd post a pic but I'm so ashamed of it    It had spinner, trackball, Ls-30s, super 8ways, giant trigger sticks, mini control panel for winamp...good lord it was huge.  

But, after I built it, I sort of 'got it outta my system', so to speak - and then I could focus on some real arcade action.   No more 4-player for me.  Eventually I tore it apart and salaged all the controls/encoders.  Used it in my new cab.

So everybody has to learn, is what I'm saying.  Yes you can tell them they don't need it, yes you can even show examples of horrible horrible 4 player panels (like mine was), but in the end, they gotta learn for themselves.

[paigeoliver]

And I never really got the fascination with 4-player machines. The extra expense involved is enough to pretty much make a second 2 player machine.

So you're saying that the cost of 2 extra joysticks and 8 extra buttons is more than a second cabinet, computer, monitor, etc...?

The controls cost is the same for either one 4 player cabinet, or two 2player ones (using 2 cabs is cheaper in this aspect if you make cab #2 a single joy 2 button 4-way one).

19-21" displays for 2 player cabinets can be had dirt cheap. While a 25-27" display for a 4-player cabinet costs much more, more than double usually.

The I-Pac 4 costs more than the I-Pac 2.

4-Player cabinets are VERY hard to come by used, and when you can find them, you usually end up paying for them. Or else you have to build them, which REALLY costs a lot of money.

While standard 19" cabinets are a dime a dozen, and can be had from free to $50 all day long, assuming you know the right people.

Computer cost is almost negigible. I just bought a computer for my Amazing Mame. It was a P3 733/128 MB RAM/ 15 GB hard drive, and it cost $85.

[Apollo]

I'm just in the middle of my MAME job but I have a little cab in the garage that I love.
It's just a dedicated 19" vertical with 1X8 way and 1X4 way. I'm gonna play some Galaga, Pacman and 1942 on it coz hey that's what it's all about really.

[night]

i just finished the majority of my CP last night. and will be going to steal my parents digicam on the way home from work.

it is a 4P panel but i think it looks damn good. not tacky at all. it is a spinner, tball, 2 optical joys, and 2 supers, with each having 6 buttons. wont be playing much mame 4 player, but SNES and N64 have many good 4 player games that will use the buttons.

but check back for a pic later today. didnt wanna post one yet since the cab isnt done, but i'll do it specially for this topic

[Chris]

I'm fighting this problem myself now.  I have a classic-style 19 inch cabinet.  The control panel area is 23" x 7".  When I got the machine, the CP was configured as a fighter with two sticks and six buttons per player.

Version 1 of the panel had two sticks, 4 buttons per player, a 2-inch trackball, a spinner, player 1 and 2 start, and three control buttons (pause, menu, exit).  Coins were handled by pushing in the coin rejects.  This worked well for a while, but the spinner got in the way of the trackball...

Version 2 of the panel was almost the same, but the trackball grew to 2-1/4" and the spinner was removed.  At this time, a light gun was also added. Pinball buttons were also added to the side of the cabinet.

The trackball (a modified PC trackball) wore out pretty quickly, and I purchased a 3" Happ trackball to replace it.  This is where it gets complicated, as a 3" ball will not fit into the current control panel (its footprint is about twice the size of the PC balls it is replacing).  In addition, even if I could wedge it in, it would be too close to the glass for World Class Bowling, Shuffleshot, and Golden Tee.

In addition, I'm finding classig games completely unsatisfying without a 4-way joystick, and I'm starting to miss the spinner (although I'll probably still leave it off).  The machine has also sprouted a second lightgun.

To top things off, in my new house my PC is upstairs and my MAME cabinet is in the game room downstairs.  They used to sit next to each other, so people could play PC games on the PC (most notably You Dont Know Jack and racing games) and arcade games on the cabinet.  I really want to keep the gaming on the cabinet now, so now the cabinet also needs a keyboard and the ability to add PC game controllers such as steering wheels.

The design of my cabinet precludes a rotating control panel, and the reach up inside the coin door to the clamps is too far for interchangeable panels, so now I need to figure out a way to integrate all of these things without creating a monster.  So my new panel will need:

- 2 8-way sticks with 4 buttons per player
- 1 4-way ball-top stick (I got a DK Jr stick on eBay)
- A 3" trackball with 2 buttons at least 8 inches from the glass.
- 5 emulator control buttons (I really want Load and Save buttons as well)
- A keyboard (Mine is only 8" wide, but it's gotta go somewhere)
- External USB ports for PC controllers
- Enough lip to the control panel to clamp on a PC steering wheel
- A mounting point for a control module to support very specialized controllers like a Star Wars yoke
- A pinball plunger
- Pinball nudge buttons
- 2 Light Gun holsters
- 3 You Don't Know Jack buzzers (handheld, removable)
- 4 numbered buttons for You Don't Know Jack (although if I add Player 3 and 4 start, I can use the player start buttons)
- A Screw button for You Don't Know Jack

And all this has to fit on a 23" wide panel  (I really don't want to overhang the edge) without looking like a monstrosity!

I'm probably going to put the keyboard and You Don't Know Jack buttons on a slide-out panel beneath the main panel. The main panel will curve out to accomodate the trackball, and the 4-way will sit behind the trackball close to the glass.  It'll be about 6 inches from the trackball, so hopefully I won't hit it a bunch....

--Chris

[mattreynolds]

Sigh.  Most of us have been there...I know I'm going through this right now.

I bought a used, 4 player, 27" Sunset Riders cabinet (works perfectly).  I noticed that during parties, that game had a line up to get played and always had four people on it.  Every one of my friends said that being able to play with three other friends is great fun.

So, I've started reworking the panel to suit all of our tastes once it gets MAME-ified.  The panel will likely be four player (P1 and P2 with P360s and 6 buttons, P3 and P4 with Supers and four buttons), and might have a trackball and/or spinner.  It will have a dedicated 4 way and a few admin buttons.  What does this mean?  It means it will be ugly; a true affront to the eye.  But I guarantee you it will be played a heck of a lot.

I've resigned myself to creating this large monstrosity, working out the problems, then redoing a more streamlined CP -- I can reuse the controls, so it will cost me a bit of money for the wood and lexan.  I think that is a good tradeoff to learn what gets played, which controls get used, etc.

If I want a more authentic (although arguably less popular at house parties and BBQs!   ) cabinet, I'll do that down the road with a simple two player cabinet.  But seeing how popular my four player cabinet with one game was, I'm going for the hideous control panel for now!

For a lot of people, they'll only ever have one cabinet in their house.  They are choosing to create one that allows the widest variety of playable games...not necessarily one that looks authentic.

Matt

[Chris]

I was fortunate that I never really got into 4-player games other than Gauntlet, and I find Gauntlet to be very unsatisfying with no quarters on the line.  Getting surrounded by baddies loses all of its adrenaline rush when you can just push the credit button a dozen times and brute-force your way through...

However, I am thinking of building a 3-wheel Super Sprint/Off Road module... that was great with three players!

--Chris

[hyiu]

well.... I'm going to build a cp with spinner, trackball... 4 way and 2 8 way and buttons...
I'm 1 of those crazy ones....

now.... I don't really care for anyone who walks up to MY cab when I'm not around... (sorry... sounded a bit selfish...)
but this is MY CAB... and my baby.....

I LOVE arknoid.... (although I might not have spell the name right... lol....) and missile command.... (trackball...)

also... I like to scroll around and try out games....
(this is like my child time's dream.... I used to be the kid who stand there at the arcade spending my spare time... (and actually... school time and off school time both are considered spare... right ??) but I have no $$ to keep pouring.... also... my skills are limited.... (hey... a lot of those old games are not easy....) so... I ended up standing there watching people play 90% of the time..... (holding on to my last coin thinking which machine should I use it on......   tough choice....)

I always hope I will 1 day just stand there and play endlessly.... haa haa haa.... all games.... every game.....
haaa haa haaa..... (ok.... daydreaming now in the office is not a good idea....)  

now.... I can afford it !!!.... why not ??.... why not make myself happy ??..... I know exactly what to use on my panel..... haa haa haa.....

(ok... I guess I've lost control.... I should stop now...)

[Inaba]

Hyiu sums it up pretty good... I, too, stood around in arcades without a quarter (or token!) in my pocket often, wishing I could play.  I wasn't exactly poor as a kid, but I didn't have a lot of money for arcades

Now that I've got the jing to run with the boys... why not have it *all*  

Seriously though... I built that 4 player panel as a test, mainly, to see what I'm getting into and get a feel for the layout of the controls.  My neighbors, their wives and my girlfriend + myself, we have 4+ people to play.  When I originally was thinking of games I'd like to play, Gauntlet was certainly one of the "greats."  But as been mentioned, Guantlet just doesn't have the same rush as it did when money was on the line... much to my Chagrin.

Like I said in my other post, I think multiple CPs are in order at this point.  A dual trackball/spinner + trigger stick panel + a bare bones 4 player panel would suit just about everyone.

The 4 player panel would do double duty in this manner:

Inner sticks are Happ P360's for the 8 way games.
Outter sticks are rotary Ikari Warriors and those types of games
All 4 sticks can double duty as 8 ways for 4 player games
Then a 4 way up in the middle.

That would leave the panel uncluttered.

The "analog" panel I envision would have a trackball on the far left and far right, and two spinners down (towards player) a bit and between the two track balls, then a trigger stick would be between the two spinners.  This would allow for some serious DoT action (my fav), as well as giving enough room for the crazy trackball types to really wing the ball.  Would also allow for double player Marble Madness and the like.

I don't believe my panel currently is too crowded, there's not really any "squeeze" when playing. Could stuff be laid out better? Sure!  No doubt about it.  If I had it to do over, there's a few things I'd change.  

I'm not into the "authentic" side of retro-gaming.  I want it all... even if it's not authentic.  I've got 2 Cabs in the works (one almost done), and I've got a Dragon's Lair I'm refurbishing... and before all is said and done, I'll probably have a 3rd Mame Cab.  It's all about experimentation and learning for me.   I just can't seem to get a handle on it conceptually w/o actually building it and then futzing around with it.  CP's are terribly hard to build, just time consuming in the extreme.  I'm not really thrilled with the wiring either!  However, after wiring up the above panel, anything else is gonna be pretty easy.  150' of wiring is ridiculous!

At this point, I'm inclined to agree about leafswitches vs microswitches.  I think my next sticks will be leafswitches.  The click-clack of the top fire and ultimate I have on there now is annoying.  The Happ P360's are pretty nice though, and a good alternative to the leafswitches if you want to roll with that kinda dough.  Since cost isn't a factor for me, I want to make my panels super functional, even if it is at the cost of authenticity.  The only way I'm going to get that super functionality (for me) is to try out different scenarios!

[u_rebelscum]

I never was one for the all-in-one control panel, but I understand the "I want to play it all" mentality of those CPs: too many of the games I want to play need "special" controls.  However, I sort of went a backwards path to most of the above, "build a huge test CP with it all", examples.

Soon after I started mame, I bought a hotrodse, naively thinking it would be all I'd ever need.    I quickly found out many of my favorite games were either trackball, 360^o steering wheel, spinner, analog stick, rotary, or some other non-all-digital inputs game.  (Only a very few 4way joystick games, and even less 4 player or 270^o steering wheel, were on my scope, plus I never was a big fighter gamer.)  So even with the hotrod covering 85-90% of the games emulated in mame, I felt I was missing too many of my "best" games.

But I feel no need to rebuild that hotrod.  Like I said, with 90% of mame's games taken care of, I can concentrate on building individual, "special case" CPs designed for "perfect" play with those games I "have to have".  For example, there is no way to fit 3 360^o wheels for "real" SuperSprint action on even a "do it all" CP anyway, so I might as well "do it right" on it's own CP.  Currently I'm up to three different CPs "in use", with more on the drawing board.  I am planning on a swapable CP cabinet, and in the future hope to have one cab for each CP (if I ever get enough $$$, time and space).

[LunarLoveLust]

I haven't had a chance to read all the replies, but i'll post anyways

It really depends on when you were born and what games you played in the arcades I guess. For me and all my friends it was 4 player Beat em ups, and that's the reason i'd like to build a cabinet.

I wasn't raised on Missle Command, Space Invaders, Pac-Man and such (still great games tho ) I was raised on X-Men, TMNT and Crime Fighters.

All the extra parts (Trackball, Spinner and so forth) I want so I have a chance to play all the other great arcade games I was never able to play.

Sorry for the rant

[night]

here is that pic

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=9292

[Mike]

You build your control panel to suit who will play it. For me a spinner is critical, I love arkanoid. 2 8-ways with 6 buttons each are pretty much required to be able to play a majority of the games. The trackball is nice when people are over, nothing like drunk video bowling. Real reason I have a trackball though is in hope that Golden tee will eventually be emulated but for now I use it for the PC version. I can understand the 4 players CP too if those are the games you like. I think the worst are the ones with admin buttons. If you take the time to set your FE up right they really aren't needed at all for normal play and really take away from the look of a real arcade CP. Sure there are times when you need to do some other stuff that you don't have keys for but that is why the ipac and others have the keyboard pass thru. My cab has been going for about 2 years now and it has never had an admin button.

[Sasquatch!]

Kinda harsh to point out someone's exact panel for your example dude, ain't it?  

That said, while I'm not a fan of trying to jam a billion buttons onto one CP, I also have to agree with Hyiu's "gotta play 'em all" mentality.  The time it takes to rotate a rotating control panel (or worse yet, swap out a separate control panel) would take away from gameplay for me.  I realize it's because I'm REALLY impatient, but hey, that's just me.  I want to just fire up a game and KNOW that the controls that I need are right there.

I would make exception - like u_rebelscum said though - for "super special" controls like a steering wheel or a yoke.  I think I'd put those on a dedicated cab.

[telengard]

Look I know I'm fairly new on the scene here but for pitys sake what is going on here?
I am building a cab with a 26" arcade monitor ( lucky for me, I got it cheap ). My controls are 2X8 way joysticks with 6 buttons each, 1X4 way joystick with 3 buttons and a couple of admin buttons. The CP looks clean and I can play 95%+ of all games.
What is up with all this dual trackball, spinner, 4 player, 20 admin button CP's that people are building?
I just don't get it they look totally crazy, I mean what is up with this?
Case in point below. I know there's a lot of work gone in to this but come on.

http://cohort.cc/uaiicp/images/CPUA2%20010_jpg.jpg

I don't really want to slag this off but is this not getting out of hand? Or do I just have not enough mates to build a 4 player panel lol. Or can people just not live without Arkanoid, Tempest and Missile Command?

Hehe, you're not alone.  Someone described these panels as
"frankenpanels" not too long ago. I guess it's different strokes for different folks.
I must admit that some of the larger panels look great with the artwork etc, but
it's just not my cup of tea.  My favorite cabs are the likes of Defender and Dig
Dug and they had quite small panels.  Maybe it has to do w/ age or the games
you remember or like best.

I wanted authenticity but I too like some of the oddball control games so
I went with a modular approach.  I'm glad I did.  It was probably the same
or maybe a little more work than the larger ones to build and involves more work
to switch between game types but I don't mind.

[paigeoliver]

My compromise with this was just to make multiple cabinets, with swappable panels on the final one. My cabinets have all been free, and my 21" VGA displays for the three big ones were only $75 each, and the small cabinet (Space Firebird mini) is getting a 14" VGA, which was free.

Having different cabinets is really great, because they all have different feels. Different joysticks, monitor orientations, control panel angles, and monitor angles all have distinctly different feels.

[knuttz]

I don't mind the 4 player panels.  I just don't like when there is a line of about 12 admin. buttons along the top.  Use some shift buttons for goodness sake.

[Howard_Casto]

Well I think everyone knows my view on these hideously cluttered control panels.  For the record what generation your are from has absolutely nothing to do with it.  It's an eye for asthetics, good designing skills, common sense, ect.  

I, for example, grew up in the age of 4 player beat em ups.  As a matter of fact, tmnt is probably one of my all time favorite games.  I have enough sense not to make a 4 player panel though.  Why?  Because when I played it in the arcades the game was, new, exciting, and there were actually 3 other people willing to play it with me.  Now it's old, not as exciting (at least to other people)  and your lucky if you can get one of your friends to set down for a nice long game.  

Also tmnt had 3 buttons per player, no start buttons, no nothing.  It's panel had plenty of room for 4 people and looked quite nice.  If I were to add 4 more buttons for player 1 and 2, 4 start buttons, a trackball, ect it would look awful and be painfully cramped.  That is unless you make a HUGE control panel like certain people are, which look just as bad because they overpower the cabinet.  Arcade designers understood this.... that's why the more players a game had, the simplier the controls got.

Btw this excludes modular control panels, or rotating panels.  These are the only proper methods of adding a bunch of controls imo.  

Oh and for those of you who say politically correct things like "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" are smoking some serious stuff.  

It's like they always say:

Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly is all the way through.

[hooded_paladin]

I agree with Mr Reynolds - my (future) four player panel (just standalone)  is for parties.  As rare as a 4-player game is, for gatherings with plenty of people you just can't beat it.  I really like gauntlet (and am itching for Gauntlet Legends...)  and if there's enough people, who WOULDN'T prefer a big 4 player game?  Call it cluttered or ugly but that's what I'd prefer to play on.

This is just my big slab of portable controls.  When and if I build a cab, I want a modular main panel for two players and two removable side panels for 2 more.  I think a little more neatness is required considering that projects like these are FURNITURE.

[jerryjanis]

I think you guys are crazy to say that all you need is a 4 or 8 way joystick and a few buttons in order to be happy...  The Hot Rod layout plays 95% of the games accurately, but 95% of those games lack any kind of creativity.  Ever since I added spinners and trackballs, I could almost do without any of those 95% of joystick games because most of the games with wacky controls are really fun and unique, and carefully thought out.



A typical night of video gaming requires very little swapping, because we'll usually pop one set of controls in and go through all the good games that use them.

I'm still not even remotely satsified...  Man alive!  4 player Warlords...  4 PLAYER WARLORDS!!!  I used to play that all the time on my Atari and it was freaking awesome.  The arcade version is even sweeter, and I won't be able to rest until I can play that at home.  I like the idea of having a two player panel for most nights, with a giant 4 player panel in the closet for when it's necessary...

One last thing:  Half of the layouts in the picture above are for games that I have never seen in real life that I play all the time at home:  Discs of Tron, Marble Madness, Snake Pit...  I had to find out what it was like to play them, and I like what I've discovered!

[joeblade]

To put my 2 cents worh in. My current plans are for a 4-player cabinet, mostly because (regardless of the coin issue) myself and my wife both love Gauntlet.

On top of that I have a fair few mates (with kids) who all love playing video games, and playing with real people is cool fun (in my opionion anyway).

The intention on my cab will not only be mame games but consoles etc.
4 Player Micro Machines 3, or Fifa in ePSXe will be a hoot (on numerous occasions I have had mates around for 8 player sessions of fifa on the psx. It can get confusing with that many people, but its still great fun).

Admittedly I won't have any spinners or a trackball, as for this first cab I don't feel a need.

For me, this is a classic example of a 4-player CP (not mine, I intend no trackball, and probably less administration buttons). I guess the artwork makes it though.

http://zinfari.iwarp.com/photo2.html

Cheers

 

[Smittydc]

I agree with the people who noted that it's the games you played growing up -- I've never seen the need for the 4-person panel.  I do like a lot of the classics though, and went modular:

1 - 2 person, 3 buttons each, trackball  (my fav)
1 - defender control panel -- original layout
1 - mortal kombat -- MK3 layout

and I've got the parts for a tron repro (that will also be used for gorf, arkanoid, etc) -- eventually I'll get around to building it.

I can't believe I still haven't put up pictures anywhere -- I love this baby!  Hopefully I'll find time in the fall...

[DarkKobold]

Ok, if feel I need to add my opinion. The MAIN reason I am building my cabinet is to play TMNT and Simpsons. If I didn't have 4 controllers, it would be the farthest thing from authentic. I want the trackball for golden tee, and the 4 way for Ms. Pacman, etc. I don't consider my control panel "hideous" as Howard would say.

PaigeOliver: I have a friend that says "If you don't use the original Jamma board, its not authetic, because no emulation is %100 perfect". Even Authenticity is in the eye of the joystick holder

Joe Blade: That cab looks awsome! I couldn't find any full pics of it though. There wasn't enough info on it!

[TalkingOctopus]

I have a 4 player cp with a trackball and 6 admin buttons.  I think the 4-player games are a blast!  I also enjoy the trackball games.  The only thing I am missing is a 4-way joystick, but I felt that there was no room for one on the cp.  I like how my cp turned out and do not feel that it is clutered.  Here is the template of it:



I think that everyone needs to decide what cp is right for them and go for it.  If that includes jamming every control possible on it, that's fine.  I think it is very undestandable that people want to play as many games as possible with their expensive home built arcades.

P.S.  I think I will be posting some pictures of my cab tomorrow, so you can tear it apart then.

[Daver4676]

I think the whole topic is subjective...

There are people who want the cab to look as authentic as possible -- and that means keeping off controls.

There are other people who want to control as many games as possible.   And while, yes I have seen some cluttered cps, there have been some clever solutions to control the excess of joysticks, trackballs and spinners.

I'm the type of person who wants to get as much as possible onto my cab while keeping everything out of each others way.  I've already drawn up plans for my rotating panel and today's the day I start putting the monstrosity together.  Overkill?  Perhaps.  But my thinking is that I don't want to sit there slightly put off by not being able to play a game I love on a cabinet I plunked down four-figures on.  Of course I have to spend a whole lot more time in the planning stage but in the end it'll be worth it.  I haven't the space for multiple cabinets right now.

Many people don't like four-player cabs either.  Many people do.   I like having the option there, but that's just me.  Because when all is said and done, "The Simpsons" is most fun with four people on the screen together.  

My thought is, if someone created a panel and is happy playing with it - more power to 'em.  It may not be something everyone will copy but needs differ between people.  

Ahh.. just my two cents.  I haven't said anything in a while.  

[ThePaul]

I thought building your own cab was a sort of hobby? How can you slam anyone on what they do for a hobby? Some people carve garden gnomes out of logs for a hobby ... some people collect ear wax to mold into life sized Star Trek characters... you can't bash them for that.. it isn't what they do for a living and they aren't trying to claim to be the best of the best.. they are doing it for fun.

[HeadRusch]

I've seen some ugly-assed CP's...and I've seen some nice once too but in the end.....

Your Opinion (especially Howards) don't mean jack.

I wanted a 4 player Cp......and a spinner.   F the trackball, the 4 trackball games I'd ever play aren't missed by me, especially when many of them (Cabal) play just as well (if not better) with a joystick.

I didnt, however, wnat one of those 3 feet deep "have to stand on a ladder and use a back brace to reach the 4 way" Cp's.......you know, the CP's that look like the dashboard on any late-model camaro or firebird, the ones with enough real-estate to serve a buffet meal on..........

So opted to make my CP onlya bout 14" deep, and make it wide...and let me tell you something, it was the best decision I'd made regarding design.  It looks ok, but also there is plenty of room for 4 30-something guys to stand and play.  4 player simpsons, 4 player gauntlet, you name it.  When I have people over its usually in groups of 4, so having a 4 player cab means only 2 people are left out at any one time.
Coin buttons below, start buttons on the CP, and no "extra buttons" for the spinner, etc.  Its all layed out in a manner that you can use any of the other buttons with the spinner for your fire buttons, etc.

The one thing I DONT like that people do with CP's is put too many redundant buttons on them.  IE:
a Trackball with its own buttons, a spinner with its own buttons, etc.   Makes it look ugly, I think.
(remember tho, my opinion don't matter...just like yours )

I dont have space for many more cabs, not without getting rid of other furniture...something the wife won't allow...I am trying to figure out a way to do a 1 player driving cab, but I'm not sure if I have the room to make it a sit down right now....but we'll see.

The other thing I dont like are "swappable control panels".  I know they take skill to make, but frankly my one huge issue with this has always been: IF you want to play a game, who wants to have to swap out a 20 pound PANEL for gods sake.??!?  Who wants to have to bust out a huge block of wood when they want to play TRON, then put in another one to play..final fight or whatever...to me, thats an example of ego overshadowing practicality, but hey.....who cares..build what you like.


And, for that matter, what do you do with these ugly-assed panels when you aren't using them??  

[Daver4676]

My problem with swappable control panels is that when people come over and want to play different games, I'm the one who's going to have to fetch them and connect them every five seconds.  They're good for some people -- I'm just too lazy.  

[Daver4676]

- 3 You Don't Know Jack buzzers (handheld, removable)
- 4 numbered buttons for You Don't Know Jack (although if I add Player 3 and 4 start, I can use the player start buttons)
- A Screw button for You Don't Know Jack

Hey Chris, my original cp mockup had YDKJ controls too but I had to sacrifice them for space considerations.  I had them in the plan when I was working on a three-way rotating cp.   I had since changed it to a two-sided rotations, so Jack had to hit the road (sorry... completely unintentional annoying song reference).  

But if and when you implement that let me know -- I'd like to know what could've been *sigh*.  

[jakejake28]

see, i'm with paige all the way on this one... multiple cabinets. i have my vertical 4-way with 4 buttons (cocktail), a trackball, spinner, dual optical rotarys (reg. upright) and a two player street fighter layout (reg. upright) and i have never had any problems. maybe you all should think about that...

[Aceldamor]

I really don't have an opinion save 1....

Apollo:

You could have got your point across WITHOUT using someone elses hard work to bash.....bad form man.

As far as "frankenpanels"?  I would have go agree with what some folks said, it's just inexpieriance (sp?) or "glory-vision".  I would also agree with Howard and say that Rotating or Modular panels are the answer to that problem.

Give theese folks a break man, if anything offer constructive cirticisim and applaud them for building thier own panel.

[DarkKobold]

I think 1-UP summed it up in his original sig

"It is SO choice"

Possible misquote, but you get the friggin point

[Frostillicus]

I think there is a bit of misunderstanding on this post.  We are offering advice on why not to build a 4-player panel (answering the original question, BTW), not  bashing someone's design.  

If you really really want a 4-player, good for you.  I wish you well and all kinds of happiness playing it.   But just use a little forethought - and think about this:

1. Seriously, how many 4-player games are there  (even counting the bad ones) compared to 2 player?
2. How often will you have 3-4 people wanting to play those few games at once?
3. How long until the novelty of 4-player wears off and the games get boring?

answers:  1: "not many"; 2: "not very"; 3: "not long". Nobody likes it, but some games just get old.

Consider using 2 USB gamepads for player 3 and 4.  I mean, even Gauntlet Legengs, the coolest of the cool will get tiring after awhile.

[CCM]

see, i'm with paige all the way on this one... multiple cabinets. i have my vertical 4-way with 4 buttons (cocktail), a trackball, spinner, dual optical rotarys (reg. upright) and a two player street fighter layout (reg. upright) and i have never had any problems. maybe you all should think about that...

while multiple cabinets are a great idea, not everyone has the money or space for them....

[AlanS17]

I never read this thread til today. Now I see why it's getting large.

I admittedly have alot of controls on my panel, but I don't feel like they're all over the place.

I've got:
2 "Street Fighter" layouts
1 4-way (uses 1P buttons)
1 topfire
1 trackball w/ 3 buttons
1 spinner

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=8798
(without 4-way, spinner, or topfire cutouts)

However, this all fits in a decently small space. The thing is not huge and there is no stretching. However, the thing was well thought out (IMO) and doesn't have alot of other stuff in the way when you try to play a game.

Grabbing the right control would be the only issue for such a CP layout. However, if you know the game you wanna then you should also know what the layout is for it. You don't reach for the trackball to play a fighting game. Even then, though, spinner and TB games work with the joys, too. So playing them may be incorrect if someone grabs the wrong control, but it would still work. Ya know?

It beats someone damaging my CP trying to rotate it or interchange panels.

My next (more private) machine will likely have rotating/interchangeable controls and hopefully even a rotating monitor.

However, one look at my machine, and I don't think you would get the impression of a "frankenpanel". It's purdy. You'll see...

On a final note, I'm happy with it and it's bulletproof (and frat-proof). What else matters?

[Inaba]

1. Seriously, how many 4-player games are there  (even counting the bad ones) compared to 2 player?
2. How often will you have 3-4 people wanting to play those few games at once?
3. How long until the novelty of 4-player wears off and the games get boring?

answers:  1: "not many"; 2: "not very"; 3: "not long". Nobody likes it, but some games just get old.

Your answers are wrong...  1. Enough; 2. Quite often; 3. It won't

But regardless... another reason I went with a 4 player panel was the fact that there are a few games that require 2 joysticks to play.  Karate Champ comes to mind.  It's so simple a game, it never gets old.  You need 4 sticks to play that game... so how do you do it on a 2 player panel with just 2 sticks?  You can only play the computer... how boring.

A little forethought will reveal there are many reasons to have a 4 player panel.  Just because one person doesn't have a lot of friends over to play doesn't mean other people don't.  Additionally, the original intention of my design was to have the player 3 & 4 sticks be rotary sticks, thus making them usable for 2 player Ikari warriors, heavy barrel, tank, etc...  and the center two sticks (player 1 & 2) being more of the traditional fighter type sticks, with smooth motion, etc...

There's plenty of reasons for a 4 player panel, and just because there is the ability to play 4 people at once doesn't mean that's all it can do.

[Howard_Casto]

1. Seriously, how many 4-player games are there  (even counting the bad ones) compared to 2 player?
2. How often will you have 3-4 people wanting to play those few games at once?
3. How long until the novelty of 4-player wears off and the games get boring?

****edit***
nm the board screwed up and ate my message, i'm not typing all of that again.  

[jerryjanis]

Huh, I thought the whole idea behind building your own panel was that it doesn't have to please everybody - only you (and maybe some friends if you have them).

[AlanS17]

1. Seriously, how many 4-player games are there  (even counting the bad ones) compared to 2 player?
2. How often will you have 3-4 people wanting to play those few games at once?
3. How long until the novelty of 4-player wears off and the games get boring?

****edit***
nm the board screwed up and ate my message, i'm not typing all of that again.  

It's a sign!  

[Hoagie_one]

I thought the whole idea behind building your own panel was that it doesn't have to please everybody - only you (and maybe some friends if you have them).

Aye, if you have em

[AlanS17]

C'mon, Howard. I DARE you to say my CP is gonna be ugly.  

[jerryjanis]

Phase 1 is over.  Next we need the Build Your Own Friends Message Board.

[AlanS17]

Phase 1 is over.  Next we need the Build Your Own Friends Message Board.

But you still need BYOAC machine to train them...

[Edgedamage]

Not to take anything away from anyone who has built 4-p panels. But nothing looks more out of place than a 4-p
panel on a classic cabinet. Now mind you the build your own cabinet kits/plans look good with a 4-p panel. Now this is going to get me killed/banned but the other day I was showing a friend who sells original classic games mame. I asked him what he thought of mame and he said "playing mame is like watching a porno it makes you want the real thing"

[Spaced Invader]

--snip--
the other day I was showing a friend who sells original classic games mame. I asked him what he thought of mame and he said "playing mame is like watching a porno it makes you want the real thing"

The fact that your friend SELLS original games wouldn't have anything to do with that comment...would it?  

[Apollo]

Hmmmm well firstly I apologise to anyone I offended with my comment and in hindsight I shouldn't have used a specific example to "slam".
Of course everyone has their own ideas for CP's and all the ideas are valid and if everyone was the same this forum would probably suck big time.
To be honest when I started this thread it was 3am in the morning and I had just come in from a party i.e. I was worse for wear if you know what I mean. I make a solomn vow not to start any threads when drunk and tired.
I still think that aesthetics are important though and sometimes there are better ways to do things.
Once again apologies to those offended.

I'm sure that when I announce my completed project you will have a chance for revenge and can flame me to hell for my apalling taste in building my cabinet lol  

[AlanS17]

Just avoid marble contact paper and you'll probably be fine.  

(I'll probably be hearing it from someone for that comment, too.)

[Mike]

See you people with your 4 player control panels and 200 admin buttons, you just had to have them now you knocked out power to a good portion of the country.

[AlanS17]

See you people with your 4 player control panels and 200 admin buttons, you just had to have them now you knocked out power to a good portion of the country.

That's just how many buttons and controls it takes to conduct a nuclear strike. The power outage is no accident. You should be feeling the efects for yourself soon enough. MUAHAHAHA!!!

(Ok that was retarded...)

[joeblade]

Hey frostillicus, yet again a personal opinion that others may disagree with.

As an opposing opinion:

If you don't limit the cab to mame, but inlcude a few consoles, there are tons of 4 player games.

Furthermore, I reckon once built my 4 player CP will have atleast 3 players on a daily basis, even if its just so my kids can whip my arse !

 

DOH - Just discovered theres a 2nd page to this thread, Frostillicus's post was ages ago .. apols.

[Howard_Casto]

Hey frostillicus, yet again a personal opinion that others may disagree with.

If you don't limit the cab to mame, but inlcude a few consoles, there are tons of 4 player games.

Furthermore, I reckon once built my 4 player CP will have atleast 3 players on a daily basis, even if its just so my kids can whip my arse !

 

actually this is not true at all.  

First off consoles aren't meant to be played on arcade cabs.  Secondly when you whittle them down using my forumla (which was lost in that previous post)  there are around 20 games playable on consoles, and that's assuming you hook up every single modern console known to man to the dang thing.  

This isn't an opinon it's common sense.  When you whittle it down there isn't a whole lot of use for 4 player cabs in the home.  

My lost post explained all of this in great detail but I'll just end this with what i ended it with.  

I've been here for a long time and I've talked to a lot of people over the years.  So far I've yet to find a single person that can honestly say that building a 4 player cab was worht it.  (As in the amount of use player 3 and 4 gets justifies the added expense, clutter ect.)

I challenge anyone to find someone with a good experience regarding this type of setup.  Sure some are happy but if you ask them what would you change they always say... "I would have made it 2 player, or simplier ect."

The rules are simple, the cab has to be at least 3 months old and the 3rd and 4th players have to be used at least half as often as the main 2 player sections.  And they must not regret the decision of making the panel 4 player.  

If you qualify and wish to defend your decision please post it here.  I would genuinely love to hear about it.  

 

[hooded_paladin]

Do people with star wars yokes use them at least half as much as the other controls?  4 player is just another option that people can choose whether or not they pass some quota.

[Howard_Casto]

Do people with star wars yokes use them at least half as much as the other controls?  4 player is just another option that people can choose whether or not they pass some quota.

Is this a question about star wars yokes?  And for that matter people very rarely have a sw yoke on their cab, so that should tell you something.  There are over 3000 members, I'm just looking for one to come forward.  

[hooded_paladin]

There are few people with star wars yokes because few people have the time, money and desire to make them.  But the ones that DO should use them at least 1/2 the time of any other game, if we transfer your expectations from one control panel option to another.  Point is, people don't have to use it very much at all to be glad they added it.

[night]

i definitly wanted to be able to play twin joy games, and whats 12 more buttons after that

and i dont meet ur qualifications there howard, but i have a roommate and we have friends over all the time. NBA jam is a fav so for. but i wanted 4 player for nintendo stuff. bomberman is a great game we've enjoyed and there are many great 4P nin games. i did try to start a thread to list 3/4P games for all systems but no one took it seriously. i will be working on making that list myself later though.

it just seems incredibly stupid to me to at least not give yourself the option of playing 4 ppl. i hate nothing more than having friends over and them having to sit there and watch while others play and go threw the hassle of taking turns.
if you cant have ppl be active and involved, then turn your 2 player cab off and dig out a deck of cards.

[u_rebelscum]

IMO:

"Total number of games with xxx" has nothing to with if you should make a CP with xxx.  What matters is "number of games with xxx you love to play".  Plus playability and (very minor) looks.

I have a two trackball CP; number of games in mame that use two TBs: ~65, including clones and cocktail cabs.  Number of these games I love: three, with a few more I "just" like.

I'm going to make a two 360^o wheel CP; number of games with this type controller: ~50.  Numbers of games I'm really doing it for: four, with a few more I'll just like.

I'm going to make a CP with a 720^o controller; number of games that use that controller: one.  Guess how many of those I "have" to play.

The whole reason I started doing what is now MameAnalog+ was for only two games: MarbleMadness & Cabal (although I "remembered" more games since then).  Most features added were based on two or three games I loved that would play better with that feature.   Heck, I added dual lightgun support (winME/98 only) and I haven't found any two player (real) lightgun games I truely love.  

So I don't see anything at all wrong with others making 4 player CPs for just a few games, if they truely "have" to play them (and the cab can fit the CP).


OTOH, I totally do not agree with frankenboards that sacrifice overall usablity, comfort, and looks to squeeze in five more controllers.  I say go swapable, modular, or rotating instead.

[Howard_Casto]

So I don't see anything at all wrong with others making 4 player CPs for just a few games, if they truely "have" to play them (and the cab can fit the CP).


OTOH, I totally do not agree with frankenboards that sacrifice overall usablity, comfort, and looks to squeeze in five more controllers.  I say go swapable, modular, or rotating instead.

I agree with everything you've said, BUT you have to remember my point.  YOU may love the games, but in order to justify a 4 player panel 3 other people have to love them just as much.  That simply doesn't happen when you are talking retrogaming.  Well it does, but it's a rarity.    

I mentioned the lack of 4 player games to visualize the slim odds of finding some good games that you and three buddies will really like.  I didn't mean that quantity=quality.  As you notice, I pointed out that out of all the mame games only a small portion of the games are played by the average mamer.  That was to point out this issue, apparently you didn't understand that part of my post.  

Also you make good points about the 4 player panels.  Yes you can make a nice one, it's just I haven't seen one around here yet.    People add the useless extra buttons to player 3 and 4, 12 control buttons, a trackball, ect and make it into one of those franken panels that you mentioned.  

I think that veterans can do a nice, clean 4 player panel, but newbies need more practice first.  You need to start out simple and build more as you need it.

[night]

so i take it you dont like my panel

[Apollo]

so i take it you dont like my panel

Where is your panel?

[joeblade]

This is good that some opinions are being voiced, thats what forums like these are all about .... it allows people to get a better understanding of others (well so the theory goes anyway).

Now to add another 2 cents from me (think I am upto 6 cents worth now)

> I agree with everything you've said, BUT you have to
> remember my point.  YOU may love the games, but in
> order to justify a 4 player panel 3 other people have to
> love them just as much.  That simply doesn't happen
> when you are talking retrogaming.  Well it does, but it's
> a rarity.    

Just for the record, I (or my situation) will put my hand up to be counted as one of those rarities. I don't think I have any mates that are not into arcade / video (console whatever) games from yesteryear (and today).
Heck even my wife is into the whole thing ....

My closest group of friends - we used to go to the arcades a fair bit back in the 80's (I am 34 now), and plundered whads of cash into stuff like gauntlet, TMNT, etc. I still frequently (probably atleast once a month) see these mates aswell.

A couple of them are nagging me now to hurry up and get my cab finished so we can get the multiplayer thing happening (not just the mame stuff, but games under other systems aswell).

For me, the whole concept of a bunch of mates sitting on some bar stools, in front of a whopping vertical cab with 27" monitor, pounding on the control panel like there lives depended on it, is way better than sitting on the floor, infront of the telly playing an x-box or something.


Also I am not interested in any spinner or trackball games, as that isn't what I played when I grew up (I will probably build a 2nd cab, if the interest is there for that sort of stuff), hence to justify the extra cost (and minimise the required real-estate) of a 4 player CP I am leaving off the spinner, trackball on this cab.

In all honesty, it doesn't even worry me if the 3rd, 4th players only get used a couple of times a year (although I doubt that will happen, minimum of once a month I would say), as the enjoyment of playing with mates, say after a BBQ and beers far surpasses (for me anyway) the solo enjoyment - we tend to have mates around often, so it all works out well.

 

[Nannuu]

First of all before I start I'd like to say that I don't have a problem with anyone's cabinet or cp.  They are all cool!  Whether they were $50 or $3000 they still play games and they were built by a person that likes to play'em.  Even if it has a joystick and two buttons you can play most of the stuff out there and have a good time with it.
 
I plan on building a 4 player cp with all kinds of stuff on it.  I will be making a rotating design to lessen the clutter but I'll do my best to play lots and lots of stuff on there.  The 3rd and 4th player wings will stay stationary while the center rotates to more controls.  Why build a 4 player?  Gauntlet series, TMNT, Xmen, Dungeons and Dragons and Golden Axe (TRODA).  My wife and I like to host game nights which always net plenty of people to play with so although I won't always have 3 friends to play I will often enough.

Now I may end up building a two player cab or a cocktail after this is done.  But for what may be my only Mame cab I'd like to play as much on there as I can.

[Tommy Boy]

I love these kinds of threads!  I'll bet when we're all done debating this, everyone will be in 100% agreement with one another  

BTW, if those of you deemed to be in possession of "offensive" CP's, plans for offensive CP's, or even with intent to build an offensive CP would kindly add your name and address information to the thread, someone (Howard) will be right over to confiscate the offending device, burn it, kick your dog, and knock down your house  

You will all come to thank the CP police for the service that they provide by ridding the CP gene pool of those CP's that are not "fit" to procreate.  Believe me, this will be a stronger hobby and community if we all get behind a common aesthetic.

My only question: could someone in authority please post the "approved" layout so that I don't unwittingly build a CP that could be viewed as perverted or deviant?  

[Mike]

I totally understand where Howard is coming from. Because the fact of the matter is when you first get into it you think you want to play everything. But once you have your cabinet up and running for a while playability is the biggest concern. You don't want joysticks or other controls in the way of controls your trying to use.

What you really want is something that will work. Howard isn't saying adding a trackball or making a 4-player cp is wrong, he's just saying all these newbies want to stick a gallon of crap in a one quart bucket.

Make something simple and use it for a while. After you've played it for a while then reevaluate what you have and change it if you need to. That is why when ever anyone asks what they should do for thier first CP I say stick 2 joysticks on it and some buttons and start playing.

[MiKman]

I know it's not authentic, but for what it's worth I want to add what I have done with my cp. I am in the midst of making a 2 player panel with the following on it:

2 - 8 ways + 6 buttons each
1 - 4 way + 2 buttons
1 trackball + 3 buttons (for missle command)
1 spinner (same 2 buttons as the 4 way)
1 up button
2 up button
coin buttons are not on the control panel, and I still haven't decided if I want dedicated admin buttons for esc, pause yet.

I do want to be able to play 4 player games and for this I installed 2 usb ports on the front lower  of my cabinet (almost hidden) to plug in a couple of game pads.  It works and my control panel is configured for most of the games (as someone said prolly 95%).  The boys will be able switch off between 'real' controls and gamepads and everyone is happy. :-)

my 2 cents. and when I get some pics I'll post em and you can flame it :-)

MiKman

[jakejake28]

I love these kinds of threads!  I'll bet when we're all done debating this, everyone will be in 100% agreement with one another  

'cept Howard

j/k

[hooded_paladin]

BTW, if those of you deemed to be in possession of "offensive" CP's, plans for offensive CP's, or even with intent to build an offensive CP would kindly add your name and address information to the thread, someone (Howard) will be right over to confiscate the offending device, burn it, kick your dog, and knock down your house  

So, Mr Casto, just show up in Cali and I'm sure you can find me (and my dog   ) by the stench of my 4-player template!

[Apollo]

My idea here was not to slag of four player panels per se.
My point was that there are good and bad four player panels, some look ridiculous, some don't.
I don't see why aesthetics should be sacrificed just because you want a four player panel. Keep clean lines, no admin buttons ( you don't need any ), don't have 10 different colours of button etc. You know what I mean.

[Howard_Casto]

My idea here was not to slag of four player panels per se.
My point was that there are good and bad four player panels, some look ridiculous, some don't.
I don't see why aesthetics should be sacrificed just because you want a four player panel. Keep clean lines, no admin buttons ( you don't need any ), don't have 10 different colours of button etc. You know what I mean.

I agree whole-heartedly.  The thing is though, there isn't a kind way to put this, but out of the population in general, the average person has no sense of asthetics.  It's a very slim percentage of us who are actually able to come up with a good design, or even recognize a bad one.  

Kinda like people who wear checks with stripes, they don't know it looks awful, so they'll defned their awful outfit to the death!

I'm not knocking anyone inparticular here.  It's just some of us are artists and others are insurance salesman.  Insurance pays better so don't sweat it.  I can just pick an outfit better than you.  

[SirPoonga]

modular or removable panels (like jerry's, that rocks).  tHat's the answer people.  I designed my removable, but I am going to change it to a second CP that is module.  My main CP is good for most of everything I play.

[joeblade]

Weh hey, I think we are approaching the point of everyone being 100% agreement with each other (as was discussed earlier) ... phew.

Some good points came out of the thread though.


I must say, that rotating CP (can't remember whose it is now, saw it a couple of months back) is a classic. Very clever idea, must have been non-trivial to implement though.

Now, its friday arvo, wheres my beer gone ...

 

[paigeoliver]

My idea here was not to slag of four player panels per se.
My point was that there are good and bad four player panels, some look ridiculous, some don't.
I don't see why aesthetics should be sacrificed just because you want a four player panel. Keep clean lines, no admin buttons ( you don't need any ), don't have 10 different colours of button etc. You know what I mean.

I agree whole-heartedly.  The thing is though, there isn't a kind way to put this, but out of the population in general, the average person has no sense of asthetics.  It's a very slim percentage of us who are actually able to come up with a good design, or even recognize a bad one.  

Kinda like people who wear checks with stripes, they don't know it looks awful, so they'll defned their awful outfit to the death!

I'm not knocking anyone inparticular here.  It's just some of us are artists and others are insurance salesman.  Insurance pays better so don't sweat it.  I can just pick an outfit better than you.  

I am one of those people who KNOWS they don't really have that sense. That is why I just try to copy pre-existing designs.

Although I just installed my new controls in my Amazing Maze, and I am not sure they look right. 2 long handled Wico 8-ways, with 6 white buttons per player, and start buttons. I guess it is because the rest of the cabinet is more muted tones, 70s style greens, and some pale orange. I would have went with all black controls, but I didn't think of it first, and I am not sure they make the repro Wico long handles in black anyway.

[Inaba]

Why are Howard and Apollo jumping on the "no one plays 4 players" bandwagon, when it's been said by me and several others... and is just plain *common sense* --

Just because a panel has the ability to play 4 players does not mean it can ONLY be used as a 4 player panel.

The design of my panel was the intent of having 2 players primarily, with the option to have 4 players.  I know I'm repeating myself, but the point seems to be lost on some people...

A Happ  360 stick isn't appropriate for Ikari warriors/tank/heavy barrel/etc...  A rotary stick isn't appropriate for Street Fighter.  Neither of those is appropriate for DoT/anything that requires a trigger/topfire button.  And to add insult to that injury, NONE of those sticks alone are appropriate for Karate Champ/Robotron/multi-stick games.

With a 4 player panel, guess what?  You can have at least 3 of those 4... possibly all 4 if you're creative enough and are willing to build a frankenstick (Combo rotary/topfire/trigger).  Sorry that you guys either a) have no friends or b) eschew games that require certain types of sticks... but not all of us play fighter games exclusively.  I *love* DoT & Robotron.  For both of those, I need certain kinds of sticks.  I also love mixing it up with my neighbors in Karate Champ... guess what?  We can't play that game without a minimum of 4 sticks on the panel... so how do you propose to play games like Robotron or Karate Champ w/o a 4 stick machine?  Sure, you could make a panel designed specifically for that... but since you're going to have 4 sticks on the panel anyway, why not give it the option to allow 4 people to play at once as well, instead of limiting yourself to 2 player for no apparent reason?

There are a number of asethetic things I would change on my panel given infinite time/desire... but as far as placement and color choices, I believe my panel looks pretty good in the asthetic department, with the exception of the topfire stick, which I swapped out with a red-handled one like the green.  I've found that more often than not, people who claim they have some great asthetics sense actually have very little education or training in practical asthetics.  There are a lot of complimentary colors/designs/shapes that just don't work in some situations or are counterintuitive to a less asthetically pleasing design.  Often times, form must follow function, otherwise you end up with a product that's pleasing to the eye, but totally useless in practice...

Anyway, bottom line is, 4 player panels can be used for much more than 4 player games.  Limiting your criteria to 4 player games only as a basis to build or not to build a 4 player panel is ridiculous in the extreme.  It's akin to not installing A/C in your car because it gets cold in the winter.  It just makes no sense.

[Apollo]

Well someone else misses the point again. I have already said I have nothing against 4 player panels and I also "admit" that I don't know enough people who would be that interested in playing a four player game who would be at my house all at the same time ( I'm 34 for gods sake not 13 ).
Four player panels are fine I have seen a few great examples ( emphasis on the "few' ). What I ( and Howard and others ) are talking about is panels that look crap ( and often have limited functionality ). Most of these are four player panels and most of them are first attempts.

[Howard_Casto]

Well someone else misses the point again. I have already said I have nothing against 4 player panels and I also "admit" that I don't know enough people who would be that interested in playing a four player game who would be at my house all at the same time ( I'm 34 for gods sake not 13 ).
Four player panels are fine I have seen a few great examples ( emphasis on the "few' ). What I ( and Howard and others ) are talking about is panels that look crap ( and often have limited functionality ). Most of these are four player panels and most of them are first attempts.

Exactly, Excatly, Exactly.  You see kids, if it's your first panel, and this is your first woodworking project, you should not stray far from the sf2 layout.  Period, end of story.  No arguments.  Why?  
Because:

Building a control panel is hard.

You are new to mame on an arcade panel and don't know which specialty controls you'll really need yet.  

Your cab design is ripped of from someone else because you didn't have the talent to make one of your own, so what makes you think you can design the most crucial part of the cab by yourself.  

I can go on and on.


Also on the "player 3 and 4 are useful for other things" route.  No, they are not.  Unless you have a franken panel that is.  See in order to fit 4 players on a panel, player 3 and 4 have to be slanted at like a 45 degree angle.  If you don't angle these players then your cp is a surf board, and overpowers your whole cab.  Try playing robotron with one straight stick and the other crooked.  Sure it can be done, but it's very unnatural.  And forget about ikari warriors.  It's hard to use a postional joystick when north is 45 degrees to the left.  Again, it could be done, but I wouldn't reccomend it.  

These extra controls are best kept on  a second control panel, modular/rotational panel, ect.  Could it be done the way you are suggesting?  Sure it could, I just haven't really seen it done right yet, which is our point.  

Physically putting the controls on there and having them actually look nice, with each control serving an important funtion, and functioning well are two totally different things.  

[Frostillicus]

Well I would have responded earlier (darn I missed a whole page) but Cleveland has been lacking a little thing I like to call elec-tricity...  

The fact remains that hardly anyone builds just a 4 player panel.  They almost all turn into
Frankenpanels  The temptation to turn that real estate into functional controls is too great for most people.  And that's where things start getting out of control.  Me included on the first thing I built(see my first post).  It was a learning experience. You have to reach over 6 buttons to use the spinner, and hope you don't hit the back when you slam the trackball hard...There's no good way to do it except with separate/modular panels.  

But even in the arcade it didn't seem like the 4 player panels were  over 4 feet wide, which is pretty standard here .  4 feet? Is there a bartender on the other side of that thing?   A good 4 person panel to me would be 4 8ways with 4 buttons/player, and 4 start buttons.  That's pretty much it.

And Inaba: I said "2. How often will you have 3-4 people wanting to play those few games at once?", not "Do you have any friends?"

[night]

thats basically all my panel is frosty.
although it is wide as hell, i wanted plenty of room.
the first thing i built was a 'lap' panel, and 1/2 was just to close together.
on my mame cab, i made the 1/2 even extra farther apart beyond the tball and made the joy/buttons 1.5" farther apart.

[Daver4676]

Wow, my computer's finally up after the 'blackout' (I was in one of those 'super long darkness' areas a/k/a Queens, NY) and it seems this has escalated to a three page discussion.

Both sides make valid points.  What I can't agree with is people advising to 'stay simple' because it's my first attempt.  

After cutting the first few pieces of wood (incorrectly thanks to a screwy aiming thingee on my circular saw) I thought maybe my undertaking was too huge.  But after all the time, money and sweat I'm investing in my cab, I don't want the final product to be something I have lackluster feelings towards since I can't play certain games I really wanted to play.  So I correct my mistakes, learn from them, and press on...

I am using a rotating design and yes the mathematics involved with making sure it would actually work correctly made my head spin.  But when it's finally done I don't have to worry about building another cab to make up for my originals shortcomings.  

Who knows?  Maybe my control panel will look stupid.  Maybe it won't.  

It's nice that people seem to think that certain panels are "unattractive", but we're not taking about curtains here.  They're meant to be played with, not admired from afar by your mother-in-law's bridge club.  

Are their certain things I see in examples that I wouldn't do?  Of course.  But perhaps that's the way they like it - so I won't knock 'em.

As for four player controls panels -- you either want them or you don't want them.  I personally want them, even if they get used once.  To me, it's kind of like insurance or air bags -- you may need it one day, you may never need it, but it's probably good to have just in case.  

I don't see why there's a big movement to 'discourage ' 4-p cps.  Are we trying to make everyone's cab look exactly the same?  The person who you discourage may be the one who had a great innovation that you've quelled.    

[Richy]

I tried to design my control panel, with two players, 6 buttons each, a trackball, start buttons and 4 other buttons. I only just about fit that into a control panel, so both players have enough elbow room and their hands aren't twisted. I wonder what 4 player panels are like.

[Inaba]

Well someone else misses the point again. I have already said I have nothing against 4 player panels and I also "admit" that I don't know enough people who would be that interested in playing a four player game who would be at my house all at the same time ( I'm 34 for gods sake not 13 ).
Four player panels are fine I have seen a few great examples ( emphasis on the "few' ). What I ( and Howard and others ) are talking about is panels that look crap ( and often have limited functionality ). Most of these are four player panels and most of them are first attempts.

Exactly, Excatly, Exactly.  You see kids, if it's your first panel, and this is your first woodworking project, you should not stray far from the sf2 layout.  Period, end of story.  No arguments.  Why?  
Because:

Building a control panel is hard.

You are new to mame on an arcade panel and don't know which specialty controls you'll really need yet.  

Your cab design is ripped of from someone else because you didn't have the talent to make one of your own, so what makes you think you can design the most crucial part of the cab by yourself.  

I can go on and on.


Also on the "player 3 and 4 are useful for other things" route.  No, they are not.  Unless you have a franken panel that is.  See in order to fit 4 players on a panel, player 3 and 4 have to be slanted at like a 45 degree angle.  If you don't angle these players then your cp is a surf board, and overpowers your whole cab.  Try playing robotron with one straight stick and the other crooked.  Sure it can be done, but it's very unnatural.  And forget about ikari warriors.  It's hard to use a postional joystick when north is 45 degrees to the left.  Again, it could be done, but I wouldn't reccomend it.  

These extra controls are best kept on  a second control panel, modular/rotational panel, ect.  Could it be done the way you are suggesting?  Sure it could, I just haven't really seen it done right yet, which is our point.  

Physically putting the controls on there and having them actually look nice, with each control serving an important funtion, and functioning well are two totally different things.  

BWHAHAHA ... I have to laugh at this.  Do bells ring when you walk?  You've got to have some huge brass balls to make some statements like the above.  In addition to your huge cojones, I'd also wager to say you really don't have any idea what you're talking about.  If you lack enough talent to compensate for a cant in a joystick angle, then man, you've got more problems than trying to tell other people how to build panels.  I'm pretty flexible in my play styles, I pity you if you can only play in one position with only "exact" controls.  I think a fun competition would be to see how many positions you can play in and still be good... that'd be a true test of skill in a game

I dunno about you, but I sure as hell have zero[/b] problem using slightly offset joysticks...  My brain can easily compensate for the fact that up is not straight.  I'm not a caveman, I have deductive reasoning!  "push slightly to the left for up" is a concept that fits very easily into my game playing.  If I'm dual joysticking it, I don't even notice the few inch difference in the placement of the joysticks.

I can go on and on how crass and utterly juvenile the whole above post was, but what's the point?  It's obvious you are either a teenager or someone who still thinks like one to even begin to formulate a statement like that.  To have the gaul to state how other people feel and make broad, sweeping statements on how your way is right, no matter what is utter fallacy.  I think your credibility in voicing your opinion on the matter is about as successful as David Carusoe's career.  Sorry, man, but you just have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

I'm also not sure what being 34 has to do with having people at your house?  I'm 30, and I have people over fairly often, they are also in their 30's.  I guess we're all just young at heart... I hope I don't ever get too old to have people over to play games with.

[Apollo]

Well I almost didn't bother to reply to what essentially is the first flame on this thread.
Maybe you need to look at yourself and how all of the forum except for you managed to carry on a fairly civil discussion on a very contentious issue without resorting to your kind of gutter talk.
For a start you have quoted both Howard_Casto and myself so are you slagging off both of us or just me. For your sake I hope it's just me because Casto will be a lot harder on you than I.
I think maybe you should look at the tone of this thread because it is not some juvenile battle as you seem to think.
Bad form Inaba.

[jakejake28]

dude, Inaba, calm down some... no need to start a riot or anything, flaming Howard and all. just let it go really, cause he's Howard, he'll always offend someone .

really, if you disagree with him, just mentally note it or write something that doesn't scream FLAME!.

[hooded_paladin]

Try playing robotron with one straight stick and the other crooked.  Sure it can be done, but it's very unnatural.

That's why I didn't know what shape or size I wanted my CP... until I saw this guy's idea.
http://www.geocities.com/brian_coney/4PlayerPanel.html
He uses thread inserts and screws to mount his joysticks, and gives the center joysticks two sets of thread inserts - one facing straight like normal, one facing sideways to match the outside ones, so that two players can play dual-joystick games.  I plan to build my panel like this, so if I have a big hankering to play a two player dual joystick game, I can flip up my panel and take a screwdriver to it.  It may be rarely used, but there's the option to.  And that's my view on 4 player panels, too.

[night]

sorry but i agree with inabe on this one.
my cab will be complete soon (in the middle of getting a house right now) and it is my first cab. and i promise you some of the things ive done will turn some heads.
its incredibly naive (sp?) to assume us 'kids' cant build our own cab in the way -we- want it without regard to how it 'should be'.

the only way it should be is how i designed and built it. which just happens to be how *i* want it.


you really should be policing yourself.

[Mike]

It's nice that people seem to think that certain panels are "unattractive", but we're not taking about curtains here.  They're meant to be played with, not admired from afar by your mother-in-law's bridge club.  

Sorry bad argument. Cars are meant to be driven, but personally I prefer ones with out rust, that don't look like crap. I took the same mentality with my cabinet. I made it playable but also made it look good. My cab was a nasty dull gray redemption cabinet when i got it. At first I set it up and got it working and people looked at it like a piece of junk with a computer in it. So then I spent the time to clean it up and get it looking like a red Donkey Kong Cab, I also redid my control panel so it looked cleaner and worked better. The reaction I get now is like oh my god that is awesome. To me anything in my house I want it to look nice. I don't want smelly couches with cigarette burns and I don't want an ugly arcade cabinet.

[Inaba]

Well I almost didn't bother to reply to what essentially is the first flame on this thread.
Maybe you need to look at yourself and how all of the forum except for you managed to carry on a fairly civil discussion on a very contentious issue without resorting to your kind of gutter talk.
For a start you have quoted both Howard_Casto and myself so are you slagging off both of us or just me. For your sake I hope it's just me because Casto will be a lot harder on you than I.
I think maybe you should look at the tone of this thread because it is not some juvenile battle as you seem to think.
Bad form Inaba.

So let me get this straight... you slam my CP, calling it all sorts of names ranging from Frankenpanel to total crap and then it's bad form when I tell you both that you have no clue what you're talking about... AFTER you both try to tell me how I think and what I feel?[/b]

Yea... bad form.  Whatever you say!

Bad form is trying to tell other people that your opinion[/b] is the only true, right way to do things.  Bad form is telling people how they feel and should think.  THAT is bad form, not railing at an idiot who thinks his word is the word of god and if anyone doesn't believe in his teachings, they are WRONG WRONG WRONG!

[Apollo]

I have never used the words frankenpanel in any of my posts on this thread nor did I call your panel crap, get your facts straight.
None of the people who have posted to this thread and agree with my views have said that there is only one way to think and that is their way.
I think you need to read this whole thread from start to finish before you start making wild accusations.
I do not like your panel and others like it, I'm sorry if this offends you. It's only one persons opinion so I wouldn't get to upset about it.
You have done more than I have by actually finishing your panel so well done. I'm sure their will be opinions regarding my cab when it is finished that I won't like but I'm not going to have a little break down about it.
This thread started out as a reasonable discussion you have broken it down into a slanging match.
I am done with you and this thread. Thankyou all for up until now adding to what was an interesting discussion.

[APFelon]

Well, let's try to steer this in a more... civil direction.

When I designed my panel, my only concern was approachability. Sure, it would be cool to play sophisticated games like DoT or Cal50 on it or whatever, but I thought if I jammed everything but the kitchen sink on the panel it would overwhelm guests who wanted to give it a try.

After giving new users a few simple instructions, they are able to navagate Advmenu and select their favorite game. I don't have to stay over their shoulder and tell them which control does what; it is simple stuff. In fact, my three year old has a few favorite games on the cab. He knows how to select the game (by the screenshot), coin it up, and exit the game when he is finished-- and if a three-year old can operate it, I reason that my design is performing precisely the way I wanted it to be.

[Tommy Boy]

I can go on and on.

I hadn't noticed.  

[vusteveii]

Exactly, Excatly, Exactly.  You see kids, if it's your first panel, and this is your first woodworking project, you should not stray far from the sf2 layout.  Period, end of story.  No arguments.  Why?  
Because:

Building a control panel is hard.

You are new to mame on an arcade panel and don't know which specialty controls you'll really need yet.  

Your cab design is ripped of from someone else because you didn't have the talent to make one of your own, so what makes you think you can design the most crucial part of the cab by yourself.  

I can go on and on.

Here is a special treat for howard.  4player 8 buttons for 1/2 6 buttons for 3/4. Grand total of 42 buttons!  I can't wait to get some of the newer console emus up and running on it.  

1. this was my first woodworking project
2. this is my first panel
3. it wasnt that hard, i had more problems getting mamewah running then i did building the CP
4.  i designed the CP myself, its soooo unauthentic, but i love it
5.  the cabs only been running a week or two, but about 95% of the time its been played there have been 3-4 people on it.
6. its huge and its going to eat howard and all of the 4player panel haters

enjoy

[Apollo]

For the last time, we do not hate 4 player panels!
We hate ugliness.
Your panel is a great effort.

[Howard_Casto]

Your panel is a great effort, but believe me, you don't want me to comment any further.  

This isn't a picking on one person thing, it's a picking on 90% of the newbies thing.  You aren't the only one, but please people don't tempt me with specific examples.  I'm the Simon Cowell of cabinet judging.  I WILL tell you exactly how good or bad your panel is and it most likely will hurt your feelings.  Even if you have a fantastic panel I could probably find at least 2 or 3 major things wrong with it.

This thread is to discourage those who haven't started yet from making huge panels.  There isn't any point in showing me your end product as it can't be undone at that point, even if I don't like it.  

[Valence]

Wow   I actually had to put on galoshes to make it to this point in the thread.

Simon Cowell actually owns his own record label, which I believe makes him qualified to make the statements that he does. How is anyone here or anywhere else qualified to tell someone else that their CP is good or bad, especially when it deals with something that is objective.

I think that Apollo said it best. "Its only one persons opinion"
Even if it was a whole group of people that held the same opinion, its still just that, an OPINION, Not fact.

Most people that come here end up building multiple CPs as it is anyway. So if they want to make a panel with 100 buttons and 8 joysticks, than more power to them. After they are done, if THEY feel that it is to much, THEY can decide to build another one with less. Or more, or whatever THEY decide. Not someone else.
Offering someone else insight from your experience is one thing. Telling someone else what they are building is wrong because of aesethics is very pretentious

[vusteveii]

Your panel is a great effort, but believe me, you don't want me to comment any further.  

This isn't a picking on one person thing, it's a picking on 90% of the newbies thing.  You aren't the only one, but please people don't tempt me with specific examples.  I'm the Simon Cowell of cabinet judging.  I WILL tell you exactly how good or bad your panel is and it most likely will hurt your feelings.  Even if you have a fantastic panel I could probably find at least 2 or 3 major things wrong with it.

This thread is to discourage those who haven't started yet from making huge panels.  There isn't any point in showing me your end product as it can't be undone at that point, even if I don't like it.  

If i were worried about you hurting my feelings, i obviously wouldn't have posted the picture.  I love my panel, i really do, if i were starting over there isnt very much i would do differently.  Apparently you and apollo are taking this thread a little too personally as you both completely missed the tongue and cheek tone of my prior post.  

As far as your self proclaimed simon cowell personality, remember, he's essentially a performer on that show, he entertains us with his comments.  If he behaved like that amongst a group of his peers, he'd be in a pretty sorry shape for friends.  Maybe this is why you're having such a hard time finding 3 or 4 people to play games with you.

[paigeoliver]

Exactly, Excatly, Exactly.  You see kids, if it's your first panel, and this is your first woodworking project, you should not stray far from the sf2 layout.  Period, end of story.  No arguments.  Why?  
Because:

Building a control panel is hard.

You are new to mame on an arcade panel and don't know which specialty controls you'll really need yet.  

Your cab design is ripped of from someone else because you didn't have the talent to make one of your own, so what makes you think you can design the most crucial part of the cab by yourself.  

I can go on and on.

Here is a special treat for howard.  4player 8 buttons for 1/2 6 buttons for 3/4. Grand total of 42 buttons!  I can't wait to get some of the newer console emus up and running on it.  

1. this was my first woodworking project
2. this is my first panel
3. it wasnt that hard, i had more problems getting mamewah running then i did building the CP
4.  i designed the CP myself, its soooo unauthentic, but i love it
5.  the cabs only been running a week or two, but about 95% of the time its been played there have been 3-4 people on it.
6. its huge and its going to eat howard and all of the 4player panel haters

enjoy

I only have one "problem" with that control panel.

You have a picture of Pac-Man on it. You have a picture of Donkey Kong on it. You might as well add some DDR arrow graphics, and some Pole Position cars to your overlay as well.

Because, you cannot play either any of those games even halfway right with those joysticks.

[Mike]

See but your control panel doesn't give your cabinet the look or feel of an arcade cabinet. It looks like you stuck a table top on it. If you want something like that it would work much better and play better if you made a big screen style arcade machine where the control panel sits back a couple feet from the screen. Then it wouldn't be so akward. I think this is what everyone is getting at, think through your design. You can tell you only recently made your panel and I think I can say I wouldn't consider your cabinet completed yet, I think over time you will definately see what people are talking about and make your panel much smaller.

Also I like playing games they are meant to be played. So I have no interest at all at playing console emus on my arcade cabinet. I'd much rather park my butt on the couch when playing a console.

[Howard_Casto]

Since you asked.

#1 there isn't enough room for a trackball, you need a minimum of 3-4 inches in every direction clear to use a trackbal properly.  

#2 You have put worthless mouse buttons on the right of your trackball which woudl have gave you that 3-4 inches I was tlaking about.  Your tb is right against p1's button array so you could have used buttons 1-3 for the games like missile command ect.  Those three buttons just add to the clutter.  

#3  You have 8 buttons per player for player 1 and 2. What are those for?  No mame games use that many buttons plus a joystick and I don't see any consoles hooked to your "cab."  This one is subjective so I'll let you get away with it.  

#4 Your layout doesn't put the start/coin buttons exactly a certian distance from their respective controls. This isnt' necessary, but it a courtesy thing for your guests so they dont' have to reach in front of you to press start.  also it looks much nicer.  

#5  All your buttons are crooked.  This is probably due to you figuring out you wouldn't have enough room after you cut out the panel.  

#6  Your panel is curved towards the player. Regardless of the fact that I'm sure a lot of people catch their hip on those corners, the way you have it cut out poor player 3 and 4 have a tiny little trinagle to rest their hands on.  If you would have taken the smae panel and flipped it around it would have done much better and looked like it actually belonged on an arcade cabient.  I agree with the last post, that doens't look like it belongs on that cab at all.  

#7  You have 6 buttons for player 3 and 4.  What are those for?  There isn't a single 6 button, 4 player game on any platform, so those are just uselss.    

Note:  Beyond this point is artwork critiques, as this is subjective I normally don't comment on this, but since you volunteered yourself.  


#8  Your cp graphics don't have any theme or coheriance what so ever.    They are drawn in different styles, they have different color palletes, and they are a different size.  

#9   All of the characters are looking to the left.  Making the ones on the right side look t the right would have made all of teh difference in the world.  

#10  Your graphics aren't spaced out evenly, and by evenly I mean blancing the stuff on each side.  

#11  Your graphics are very very bright, but all of your buttons are black. If you would have allowed the characters to be partially covered by the controls, or used matching buton colors this would have worked great, but as-is they are kind of floating there on your plain blue background.  


But I would like to point out the things you did do right for fairnesses sake.  

#1  You button configurations are standard, the buttons are close together and they are clean and matching.  This type of stuff if often overlooked byt eh people here.  It looks very professional when the buttons are in tight configurations and very amateurish when they are spaced out.  

#2  You have the proper amount of blank space on your panel.  It may not be in the right places, but at least you didn't make a 6 foot panel for 2 joysticks and a button.  

#3 Your overlay and panel box are nicely finished.  It's very clean and professional looking.  I really wish more people would take the extra time to finsh their projects like you did.  Now the character arrangment and choice are another thing, but at least you didn't try to put 600 characters on the panel or take every single mame marquee and make an overlay out of it.  Overalys should look more like this and less like an ugly mess of random objects.  I saw some sideart made out of cahracters that someone did a while back, I won't name names, but it was an example of what not to do.  


Oh and for the guy that questioned my credentials, I've been in this hobby building panels for 5 years.  When you have that much flight time then you can question me.  

[dhansen]

Most people build the large control panels to maximise the GBZ  (Gay Buffer Zone) JK  

I just want to play the most games on one panel cause I'm lazy... and yes, I put my 4-way above my trackball!  (I don't care for Golden Tee)

Doug

[pointdablame]

I hate to jump into the ring so late in the match, but what the heck.

I personally am new to this hobby *obvious by my questions* and agree with what some have said in that as a n00b many people want to add everything to their CP to get the most "satisfaction" that they can.  I plan on doing that myself actually.  I am planning a 2p layout with a trackball, spinner, and additional 4way. Will I find a way to perfect the frankenpanel? No. Will I at least find an elegant way to incorporate it all w/out making it look like ass? Maybe, maybe not. Will I be happy with it? No, cuz I always think I can improve the things I do.

My point is... this hobby is an evolution. You try things, you learn things, you accomplish things, you fail things.  And with those failures and successes, you evolve your own personality. Howard obviously is not a fan of 4p monstosities with 3472345 controls. Others are, for whatever reasons. I am already seeing this in myself. I am not even knee deep in my first cab yet, and I've been planning a second. I personally dont WANT a frankenpanel, but necessity states that I should have it at first to play the games I want. Hopefully, I can make a second cab for just 4p games, or maybe with modular/spinning CP's, or who knows what.

I just don't see the point in bashing people's work. Maybe like me, it is what they can afford, what they think is right at the time, and what they just plain WANT TO DO.  I can't take on 4 cabs at a time even if I wanted to, so this is what I will have. With any luck, it will work the way I want and I can be pretty happy with it. Then down the line I can change it how I see fit.

I haven't really said anything new here, I just hope this can stay civil. This place is great cuz of the different people here. Hell, I almost look forward to having Howard and others beat me up when I post my CP. I can only learn from it or laugh at it. What do I really care tho, it's me that has to use the thing, not them.  Bring on the criticism, harsh or otherwise, but keep the insults to yourself.

[vusteveii]

Since you asked.

#1 there isn't enough room for a trackball, you need a minimum of 3-4 inches in every direction clear to use a trackbal properly.  

#2 You have put worthless mouse buttons on the right of your trackball which woudl have gave you that 3-4 inches I was tlaking about.  Your tb is right against p1's button array so you could have used buttons 1-3 for the games like missile command ect.  Those three buttons just add to the clutter.  

#3  You have 8 buttons per player for player 1 and 2. What are those for?  No mame games use that many buttons plus a joystick and I don't see any consoles hooked to your "cab."  This one is subjective so I'll let you get away with it.  

#4 Your layout doesn't put the start/coin buttons exactly a certian distance from their respective controls. This isnt' necessary, but it a courtesy thing for your guests so they dont' have to reach in front of you to press start.  also it looks much nicer.  

#5  All your buttons are crooked.  This is probably due to you figuring out you wouldn't have enough room after you cut out the panel.  

#6  Your panel is curved towards the player. Regardless of the fact that I'm sure a lot of people catch their hip on those corners, the way you have it cut out poor player 3 and 4 have a tiny little trinagle to rest their hands on.  If you would have taken the smae panel and flipped it around it would have done much better and looked like it actually belonged on an arcade cabient.  I agree with the last post, that doens't look like it belongs on that cab at all.  

#7  You have 6 buttons for player 3 and 4.  What are those for?  There isn't a single 6 button, 4 player game on any platform, so those are just uselss.    

Note:  Beyond this point is artwork critiques, as this is subjective I normally don't comment on this, but since you volunteered yourself.  


#8  Your cp graphics don't have any theme or coheriance what so ever.    They are drawn in different styles, they have different color palletes, and they are a different size.  

#9   All of the characters are looking to the left.  Making the ones on the right side look t the right would have made all of teh difference in the world.  

#10  Your graphics aren't spaced out evenly, and by evenly I mean blancing the stuff on each side.  

#11  Your graphics are very very bright, but all of your buttons are black. If you would have allowed the characters to be partially covered by the controls, or used matching buton colors this would have worked great, but as-is they are kind of floating there on your plain blue background.  


But I would like to point out the things you did do right for fairnesses sake.  

#1  You button configurations are standard, the buttons are close together and they are clean and matching.  This type of stuff if often overlooked byt eh people here.  It looks very professional when the buttons are in tight configurations and very amateurish when they are spaced out.  

#2  You have the proper amount of blank space on your panel.  It may not be in the right places, but at least you didn't make a 6 foot panel for 2 joysticks and a button.  

#3 Your overlay and panel box are nicely finished.  It's very clean and professional looking.  I really wish more people would take the extra time to finsh their projects like you did.  Now the character arrangment and choice are another thing, but at least you didn't try to put 600 characters on the panel or take every single mame marquee and make an overlay out of it.  Overalys should look more like this and less like an ugly mess of random objects.  I saw some sideart made out of cahracters that someone did a while back, I won't name names, but it was an example of what not to do.  

[Lilwolf]

Nice try on the CP.  Does player 3 and 4 work well?  The one I  had that had them pointing in at an angle only messed up kids that came over (they couldn't never figure it out at all) so I moved them pointing straight up / down again.

From that point on, I ALWAYS build a CP in just wood first... Then take it apart and put on some color.  So worse comes to worse... I just wasted a 1/3 of a MDF board.

Nice finishing job!  Looks great!

My biggest complaint is probably that your CP wont work for Total Carnage!  a GREAT game and worth trying to get 4 joysticks pointing in the same direction.  KChamps also... But TC is SO MUCH fun (add some beer and start trying to make up new stupid rules along the way and the fun just keeps going.

Have fun!

[menace]

My question is: why would anyone care what others think of their final control panel???  I can see asking for placement advice at the beginning, but to put your panel up here for others to critique is in my opinion useless and just asking for it--its already built to YOUR specifications--who gives a rat's ass what some guy in timbuctoo says about it?  If you built the panel, like the panel and can use the panel without much fuss, then everything else is pretty much moot--Am I the only one thinking this?  why has this thread gone on for 3 pages criticizing or commenting on this panel size and that panel size--if we all didn't have different opinions we would all end up with the same cabinet  

[Spaced Invader]

Why can't people understand that when it comes to CP design issues there is no right and wrong? Sure there are panels bigger than my dinning room table with control placements that would put a contortionist in traction. But maybe I WANT to play pacman with my forty-nine way, maybe I WANT five buttons just for my trackball, and maybe I want the most raddest ten player control panel ever! The point is, cab design is relative. What I like isn't necessarily what the guy I keep locked in my cellar likes. And my likes and dislikes are bound to change...I used to love my starwars bedspread and matching curtains but I've moved on...Lord of the Rings is MUCH cooler!

And Howard, let us "kids" make our mistakes...thats how we learn.  

Who's your Daddy?  

Opinions ALWAYS vary...but that's just MY opinion!

[Frostillicus]

If you want to play pacman with a 49way joystick, obviously that's up to you.  But there are certain generally accepted methods and designs to CP layout and that's what we are talking about.  Usually they revolve around simplicity, authenticity, and functionality.   For example, there is a reason most people choose a 6 button or neo geo button standard layout.  Because it's a standard fighter.

So, once again, for the record, we are not against 4-player panels, nor against each persons right to build whatever they want.  Go for it, at least you're building something  So far we've been just been giving advice based on our experiences that may help you in the long run - I still don't see why people think this is a bashing thing of some people being right and some people being wrong.

Ok back to the topic at hand...
The only critique I will post on that large CP above is this:  When you play 4-player, do the bodies of the inner 2 people get in the way of the viewing area for the outer 2 people?  Seems a little awkward.  Most people I know, including me, usually play arcades fairly close to the machine and looks like the arms/hips would get in the way of the monitor.  
 

[TalkingOctopus]

Sorry if this may be a little off topic...

Hey Howard, if possible, I would be very interested in seeing some of your work.  Almost everyone could probably learn something from it.  Although, there are allready a lot of good examples out there.

[night]

[saint]

Thanks!

--- saint

[Spaced Invader]

Hey Frost...
Wasn't talking to you specifically...I've seen your work and am VERY impressed. It's the bitter medicine that a couple people feel they HAVE to spoon up that puts that bad taste in my mouth. My point is everyone has opinions and sometimes they clash. I'm not saying advice is a bad thing. Not having to repeat the mistakes of those who came before is invaluable. But to say I shouldn't build a 4 player panel (I'm not buy the way) or shouldn't put console games in my cab (I AM doing that) is stepping into the realm of opinion. What I need/want is what I need/want. I also take issue with telling someone how bad their panel design is.

Pointles rant in 3...2...1...

Don't tell me how ugly my 400lb 10 player CP that I built from an old refridgerator door is. Either I already know it's ugly (ugly=any negative adjective for our purposes) or I'm quite happy with it and blissfully ignorant of the fact.

End rant  
 
I, of course, realize there are generally accepted methods. But sometimes stepping outside the box is a good thing. Unclet's sitdown with the spinning CP certainly isn't a "generally accepted" way of doing things...but that thing is awsome! TrickyFishy's mini machines aren't functionaly as good as a 1:1 scale cab but they are WAY cooler!   Even your own rotating panel (Frost) steps away from the norm and allows one cab to fill the shoes of many cab's in a unique, ellegant fassion. I just don't want imagination to be discouraged.

Agree or disagree as you will...opinions vary...and this is just mine.  

EDIT: Spelling

[Howard_Casto]

Sorry if this may be a little off topic...

Hey Howard, if possible, I would be very interested in seeing some of your work.  Almost everyone could probably learn something from it.  Although, there are allready a lot of good examples out there.

I didn't like my last panel because it was cluttered with extra buttons.  This is why I keep adding to this thread.    My new one (my 3rd)  is almost finished.  Until then you are welcome to look at my old panel on my then, unfinished cabinet.  

howardcasto.freeservers.com/ragingdragon/

Warning , pop-ups galore on this crappy webservice, and the webpage sucks.  

[Howard_Casto]

Hey Frost...
Wasn't talking to you specifically...I've seen your work and am VERY impressed. It's the bitter medecine that a couple people feel they HAVE to spoon up that puts that bad taste in my mouth. My point is everyone has opinions and sometimes they clash. I'm not saying a advice is a bad thing. Not having to repeat the mistakes of those who came before is invaluable. But to say I shouldn't build a 4 player panel (I'm not buy the way) or shouldn't put console games in my cab (I AM doing that) is stepping into the realm of opinion. What I need/want is what I need/want. I also take issue with telling someone how bad their panel design is.

Pointles rant in 3...2...1...

Don't tell me how ugly my 400lb 10 player CP that I built from an old refridgerator door is. Either I already know it's ugly (ugly=any negative adjective for our purposes) or I'm quite happy with it and blissfully ignorant of the fact.

End rant  
 
I, of course, realize there are generally accepted methods. But sometimes stepping outside the box is a good thing. Unclet's sitdown with the spinning CP certainly isn't a "generally accepted" way of doing things...but that thing is awsome! TrickyFishy's mini machines aren't functionaly as good as a 1:1 scale cab but they are WAY cooler!   Even your own rotating panel (Frost) steps away from the norm and allows one cab to fill the shoes of many cab's in a unique, ellegant fassion. I just don't want imagination to be discouraged.

Agree or disagree as you will...opinions vary...and this is just mine.  

To quote mother's everywhere.  "Sometimes what you want and what you need are two different things dear.  Listen to your elders, they almost always know best."

[Spaced Invader]

Sorry, dad...I guess your God complex was clashing with my Napoleon complex.  

 

[Inaba]

Sorry if this may be a little off topic...

Hey Howard, if possible, I would be very interested in seeing some of your work.  Almost everyone could probably learn something from it.  Although, there are allready a lot of good examples out there.

So wait... let me get this straight.

You supposedly have *5 years* experience in building control panels.  But in those five years... you've built exactly 2 and are working on a third?  Then... let me quote from your website:

My humble beginnings with arcade controls started in the summer of 98, when I decided to build my own control panel. You won

[Daver4676]

Sorry bad argument. Cars are meant to be driven, but personally I prefer ones with out rust, that don't look like crap.

I wasn't talking about decorating your cab with scratch and sniff stickers, poster paint and dried macaroni.   I used quotes around the word 'unattractive' in my original post to imply that they weren't really unattractive, just slightly unconventional.  

I'm seen, through many examples, control panels you'd never see in an arcade.   I've even seen actual arcade cabs that seems out of place in an arcade (handlebars on a control panel? - GAD ZOOKS... and let's not forget the oddly/lovely Discs of Tron mini-room).   There are tons of instances that a design defies the standard upright/cabaret/cocktail/cockpit/etc. varieties.  It may be shocking, but sometimes those 'Frankenpanels' can play quite well.  

[Howard_Casto]

First off, Inaba, learn how to operate the frikkin board.  It's hard to read your comments when you put them inisde the quote.  

Secondly you are making assumptions, and you know what happens when you do that.  

Firstly , those pics are not what it looks like today.  It looks totally different.  

Also you have no clue what I've been up to.  I don't count my projects unless they are successful or big, unlike others on this board who post a new "project" everytime they hack a joypad to an arcade stick. (Not that there is anything wrong with that, I'm just saying.)  I've made several prototypes, but I only count three as they were used a lot. I have been building constantly for 5 years.  

I don't care what you think of my cab, but if you think it's cheesy then you must dislike mk2 cabs.  Inch for inch it's almost exactly the same.  

Besides, this is a thread about control panels.  Fit and finish aside, I challenge you to to say that it's a bad cp layout.  It's not perfect but it's definately not bad.  And it's obviously not a tacky cab.  

I refuse you comment on your comments about the web page that I spent all of 30 seconds putting up for the benefit of this thread and others like it.  You are making assumptions again, I didn't rip my page design off of anyone, it's all mine.  

This isn't a flame message, please get over yourself and get back to the topic at hand, namely bad control panel layouts and their merits/drawbacks.  

thank you

[Spaced Invader]

Cool panel, Howard...simple is good. Nice to see you practice what you preach...and there's plenty of room to add a couple trackballs and a starwars yoke later...I mean if you change your mind or something.  

Almost forgot, that is the sweetest marquee I've ever seen...really NICE!

[rampy]

Sorry if this may be a little off topic...

Hey Howard, if possible, I would be very interested in seeing some of your work.  Almost everyone could probably learn something from it.  Although, there are allready a lot of good examples out there.

I didn't like my last panel because it was cluttered with extra buttons.  This is why I keep adding to this thread.    My new one (my 3rd)  is almost finished.  Until then you are welcome to look at my old panel on my then, unfinished cabinet.  

howardcasto.freeservers.com/ragingdragon/

Warning , pop-ups galore on this crappy webservice, and the webpage sucks.  

Hey Howard,

Where's the link to your showcase style attempt? =)

That one will really win over the folks in this thread... (I'm kidding... I'm a kidder... hey put that tomato down!)

I wonder if getting into a flame war with howard is a right of passage on byoac "regular" status.  I think I still have a mark from mine 1300 posts ago =P

I know HC, and others (myself included) mean well when we preach the fallacies of following the 4 player devil and the true path towards the absense of button/control explosion panels... but I understand why people get defensive.

Realize this, though: Despite perceived attitudes/flames/arrogance, there is some truth in what is being said or suggested regarding 4 player/franken panel... HC, Frosty, myself, etc are just offering advice based upon our experience, and what we know to work. It's a well beaten path.  You can listen to the advice and then disregard it, if you wish. Our reasoning/justification might not match yours, or your project goals (i.e. consoles, gauntlet recreation, majong)... but we're just trying to save you from yourself =)

Sometimes someone goes beyond the beaten path, and comes up with something new and unique and useful to the community (and then it gets refined by others)... other times they come up with polished turds (but THEIR polished turds, mind you)

If someone wants to know what the bolts commonly used in cabinets are called I tell them (and where to find them, and where to find them cheapest)  If someone asks about layout on a 4player panel I share from the  same pool of knowledge/wisdom and ask, "why do you want to do that" and point out the 3 or 4 bullet points discussed ad nausem in this thread.  At the least it gives the person a chance to think about their project goals and maybe make better INFORMED design decisions (oh I don't need six/eight! buttons for players 3 and 4?) ...

*shrug* I just wanted to bust HC's stones a little and got sucked into this thread, blah!

Rampy

[Inaba]

First off, Inaba, learn how to operate the frikkin board.  It's hard to read your comments when you put them inisde the quote.  

Secondly you are making assumptions, and you know what happens when you do that.  

Firstly , those pics are not what it looks like today.  It looks totally different.  

Also you have no clue what I've been up to.  I don't count my projects unless they are successful or big, unlike others on this board who post a new "project" everytime they hack a joypad to an arcade stick. (Not that there is anything wrong with that, I'm just saying.)  I've made several prototypes, but I only count three as they were used a lot. I have been building constantly for 5 years.  

I don't care what you think of my cab, but if you think it's cheesy then you must dislike mk2 cabs.  Inch for inch it's almost exactly the same.  

Besides, this is a thread about control panels.  Fit and finish aside, I challenge you to to say that it's a bad cp layout.  It's not perfect but it's definately not bad.  And it's obviously not a tacky cab.  

I refuse you comment on your comments about the web page that I spent all of 30 seconds putting up for the benefit of this thread and others like it.  You are making assumptions again, I didn't rip my page design off of anyone, it's all mine.  

This isn't a flame message, please get over yourself and get back to the topic at hand, namely bad control panel layouts and their merits/drawbacks.  

My apologies on the quote feature, Skippy.  I know how to "use the frikkin board," but apparently missed a closing quote tag.

So those pics aren't what it looks like today?  Totally different?  Then what's the point in posting them?  Regardless, as for the control panel;  Bad design?  Depends on what you are asking.  Do I think it looks ass?  Yea, I think your CP looks like crap.  I would never put those goofy big, lighted buttons on my CP.  It makes it look like a game of Whack-a-mole or something.  But if you like it, great.  

Your CP is simple (which you obviously prefer) - and I think it looks like trash IMHO.  You have this huge CP with all this space, and 3 joysticks.  If you only want three joysticks, make your CP smaller.  But that's just my opinion, if you like all that extra real estate hanging out there serving no purpose, more power to ya.  From the pictures I've seen, I don't think you can design a good CP.  Maybe you have others, and I'd think "Wow, that one is totally cool" but what you've provided looks plain, boring and not something I'd want in my house, especially with those ridiculously lighted buttons.  

Lets talk about those buttons for a moment... You yakked about aesthetics, and yet those buttons are the equivilent of plaid pants and a golf hat.  No matter which way you slice it, they are ugly, nay, fugly to the extreme.  You have no sense of aesthetics what so ever.  Please, never speak of aesthetics again, lest ye be smitted by the fashion police.

I don't care what you think of my cab, but if you think it's cheesy then you must dislike mk2 cabs.

Going back to the cab a moment, I just wanted to clarify something.  I wasn't talking about the cab design itself... it was a Lucid rip off, by your own admission.  Mine is a Lucid rip off as well.  I was talking about the finish of the cab.  But since you say it's "totally different," maybe it doesn't look so crappy now adays, I'll take your word for it.  

As for the comments on the webpage.  I was being facitious to the extreme.  I see subtley is completely lost on you.  I took exactly what you said and replaced CP with webpage.  That's your own words, sparky.  How well they fit you and your webpage design is left entirely up to the reader.

[Spaced Invader]

Whack-a-mole...now that's just fun to say.

Whack-a-mole! Whack-a-mole! Whack-a-mole!

Kay then, I'm done now...er...

Whack-a-mole!

Sorry...that last one just slipped out.  

[Apollo]

You're not doing yourself any favours here Inaba.
If you plan to spend any reasonable amount of time on these boards you need to chill out a bit.
The only flaming on this thread so far is from you. You are just showing your immaturity not getting your point across at all ( which at the moment seems to be that you just dont like HC ).
Just mellow a bit and people may start to take you a bit more seiously, at the moment you are becoming a bit of a joke.
Someone had to say it ( you'll thank me later   )

[Howard_Casto]

Inaba, lets see, you joined this board on july 18th 2003 and you've had a total of about 130 posts so far.  In other words, you just aren't a newbie, your a super newbie.  

You have not yet earned the right polish most of the shoes around here, much less give your opinion on what is the most efficient layout.  

I find it odd that since my panel is so crappy the only two things you can find fault with it are the buttons and the fact that I used luscid's design for inspiration, which has absolutely nothing to do with control panel layouts.  Of course, you are a newb so you probably don't know what a true luscid cab looks like. (I give credit to luscid because he is the man for measuring mk cabs so we don't have to, but trust me, there are so many modifications that it's only loosely based on luscid's at this point.)  In other words you have nothing to complain about because my panels are just as clean and nice as I say they are.  

If you have a problem with me I suggest you pm me about it.  Trust me, you don't want to make this public.  

Calm down man, you are just hot, if you'd step back you would realize just what good advice we are trying to give here.  Plus it's advice, so if you don't like it, get lost.  I've ran off enough newbies in my day, no sweat off my back.  

[jakejake28]

I've ran off enough newbies in my day, no sweat off my back.  

for any1 reading this, not just Inaba, that smiley does not mean that he is joking

 

[Apollo]

Yeah it's more like that smile a tiger would give you just a couple of seconds before it disembowels you and starts chewing on your liver.

[Mike]

I've been pretty much saying the same thing as howard. Here is my cab from the last picture I took. http://home.insightbb.com/~mmarchetti/Picture001.jpg.

I plan to make the control panel smaller and remove the trackball. It just makes it too cluttered. The spinner is staying. I'm also ordering new buttons all the same color as soon as i get the part in from mouser to fix the driver board in my pinball machine. At that point I will have $25 worth of stuff to justify an order from happs(need to order new pinballs and a coil).  This next one will be the 4th contol panel I've seen on this machine. This thread is all about the newbies it's learn from other's mistakes.

[shmokes]

I tend toward the four-player panel being overkill side of the debate, but I don't have many friends as enthusiastic about games as myself.  I'm much more likely to get a group of people together for doubles tennis than doubles virtua tennis if you know what I mean.

That said if I had a bunch of people over all the time wanting to get Gauntlet or X-men going regularly I wouldn't hesitate on a four-player.

I get a tremendous kick out of all the posturing going on.  I can't see the relevance.  Howard's experience building control panels or driving "newbies" away by being generally unacceptable isn't what gives him the authority (or his tactless aproach) to comment on the aethetic qualities of a panel.  Certainly he would make similar observations about different make/models of vehicles and it is unlikely he has ever built one of those.  His authority to judge its aesthetic quality comes simply from his mind's reaction when he looks at the panel.  For example, I think his panel is ugly and I haven't even made mine yet.

Importantly, when I do make mine I plan for it to look fantastic, and even if I am successful Howard may look at it and vomit.   It is the way of things.   It is why there are so many things to choose from in the world.  

That said, I'm pretty sure that my registration date and post count are still inadequate for this post to count.  For confirmation on that please PM Howard.  If he still deems me a newbie please disregard everything I have said.  I don't mind.  I love this message board and visit it multiple times per week, but I don't derive my personal worth from my standing as a BYOAC message board poster.  

edit: grammer

[DarkKobold]

You have not yet earned the right polish most of the shoes around here, much less give your opinion on what is the most efficient layout.  

Wow. Sorry, I felt the need to comment on this.

I have been watching this board for four months now. By no means the length of time that Howard has been here. I post rarely, only when I really have something important to say.

One thing I noticed about the board over the four months was the fact that it was different from almost every other board. People were nice. People were practiced extreme courtesy, even when a question had been asked for the 8 billionth time. A very rare thing on the internet these days. Usually, its a few bad eggs ruining it for the best.

However, this post left a very bad taste in my mouth. I've not seen anyone disregard anyone elses opinion thus far. I've not seen anyone claim they were more superior for any reason. Wow.

Second, never before have I seen anything other then loving hands helping newbies, no matter what they want. "Chasing away" newbies is not what I think anyone else on this board wants. This is not a snotty nosed old man's club. Its been a great board.

I sincecerly hope that Howard was just angry and fired off a post. I severly hope that others on the board do not feel this way. To all, thank you. Your help, and your kindness have been wonderful.

Oh, and I am making a four player panel. It is also  the only reason I am making an arcade machine. Without simpsons and TMNT, my dream of building an arcade machine wouldn't exist.

Howard: When you gave advice before, that was actually good advice. I'd actually like it if you would critique my panel (look for the thread: critique my panel) I just really really hope you didn't mean that anyone on this board is not welcome, to be here, to post, and to have an oppinion.

[Apollo]

I would just like to point out again that this very contentious topic was going along fine until Inaba decided he would start flaming.
Inaba started flaming and was rightly put in his place. He essentially ruined what was an interesting thread up until he joined in. HC was not threatening to chase Inaba away ( that was a joke ). It is generally accepted that people who are new to forums show respect to those who have been members on that forum for a long time. It is the same anywhere. All members of this forum including HC are more than willing to help and encourage newer members ( I myself am a noob and have received much help ). What they are not willing to do is put up with new members ( or older ones ) that destroy threads by flaming for no reason. Everyone has different oppinions on MAME cabs, CP's, frontends the works. If they didn't this would be a hell of a boring forum. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion but no one is entitled to flame for no reason. It is nothing but destructive behaviour. Unfortunately now, thanks to Inaba this thread is no longer about the pros and cons of ugly control panels ( it was never about 4 player panels per se ). It has degenerated in to something far less interesting.

[pointdablame]

Oh, and I am making a four player panel. It is also  the only reason I am making an arcade machine. Without simpsons and TMNT, my dream of building an arcade machine wouldn't exist.

Amen to that! Your whole post made a lot of sense, but I don't feel like jumping into this whole debate again. I wanted to build a cab almost JUST because of those games. However, I realized that 1)there are 2p versions of both of those games and 2) I would rarely have 3 other people interested in playing them at my house at the same time. So I have decided to go with a 2p CP.

As for what Howard said: In my time on this board *as little as it admittedly is* I have found that he is a very opinionated person, but is also pretty knowledgeable. I wouldn't doubt that he has "chased away" people from here, but I also doubt those people were a valuable asset to the board.  Just my .02

[night]

i find it odd no one mentioned my panel yet

and ive been part of this place since well back into the old boards. in case it matters

[saint]

Thank you to everyone who has kept their posts civil despite differing opinions.  For those who haven't, a reminder  to please make your points without profanity and without resorting to flaming.  If you feel you've been wronged feel free to say so, but you don't have to get nasty about it.  When that happens, good threads die.

Snippet from the rules:
Rules?  We don't need no steeenkin rules!  Well, maybe one.  Be nice to each other.  We're serious about this one.  Disagree, debate, argue at will - but please be respectful.  Messages that are antagonistic or contain profanity will likely be deleted, and repeat offenders banned from posting.

[hulkster]

you blockhead!!!  ....sorry just had to

[Frostillicus]

Mike: I actually like your panel - it seems to fit the cab pretty well.  

And in general defense of this board, any flame whatsoever is so incredibly rare here it's almost non-existent.  They quickly get extinguished anyhow by the mods.  To be fair, 99.9% it's a newbie with a shiny new alias who starts posting as if he's on some l33t 5p3aking board where dissing, cussing and huge animated signatures is the norm.   They don't last long here thanks to folks like HC.

Anyway - back to the topic...er...what was the topic again?

[Spaced Invader]

i find it odd no one mentioned my panel yet

and ive been part of this place since well back into the old boards. in case it matters

Night,

Sorry for the oversight...was busy whacking moles! Yes, there really is something deeply wrong with me.  

Your CP looks like something that was ripped from the bridge of a starship...it's big...very big...but it looks sharp and there are no awkward angles for player's 3 and 4, I like the color and...is this a run on sentence or what? It does look good but a little large/menacing for my taste (I scare easily). One question...why six buttons for player's 3 and 4? Console games? If console games why not eight? Just curious...

--snip--
I plan to make the control panel smaller and remove the trackball. It just makes it too cluttered.
--snip--

Mike,

I think your CP looks great. Are you changing it just for asthetics or are there control issues...ie. are the joysticks awkward to use? I ask because your CP is pretty much what I have in mind for my WIP cab.

[Inaba]

Apollo, you are the one who brought me into this thread.  You are the one who decided to use my CP as an example.  You need to sit down and be quiet in your corner at this point.  If you didn't want me in this thread, then you should have used another panel as your "example."  

If you think that for some reason I need to "respect" a 23 (or is it 24) year old burger flipper who's had about as much experience building cabs/CPs as I do (which is to say virtually none) just because he has a high post count, you are sadly mistaken.  Once again, we're back to the bit about giving respect to get respect.

HC comes in, claiming to be the last word on CP design and stating that everyone is wrong who disagrees with him.  He refuses to give respect to anyone.  There are plenty of respectful ways to approach a subject, Howard eschewed them all... and thus he gets absolutely zero respect, deserves zero respect.

To top that off, his CP (IMO) is ugly, and shows he has no aesthetic design skill what so ever.  Couple that with the fact that he claims he's the self-appointed god of CP design and it's time to call BS on him.  If he could produce some pictures of some amazing panels (or Cabs) that he's designed and built, then he might have a leg to stand on... but so far, from what he's shown, he's got absolutely no authority to speak about others panels, aside from the "This is my opinion, take it or leave it."

Until that point, both you, Apollo, and HC can leave me the heck alone.  Don't use my CP as your "examples."  Don't tell me my opinons are right or wrong.  Don't tell me what I can and can not do given my experience (or lack there of).  Feel free to make helpful suggestions, that's fine... but the moment you cross that line and try to make yourself out to be something more than you are, I'll be happy to step up and knock you back over the line.

Now, to address the topic at hand:

You have not yet earned the right polish most of the shoes around here, much less give your opinion on what is the most efficient layout.

You are teh g00d engrish riter!  I didn't give my opinion on what the most efficient layout is... and you shouldn't either.  Neither you nor I have any qualifications to give such an opinion.  Produce something that provides evidence that you are capable of understanding what an efficient design is, and I will accept your opinions as valid.

I find it odd that since my panel is so crappy the only two things you can find fault with it are the buttons and the fact that I used luscid's design for inspiration, which has absolutely nothing to do with control panel layouts.  Of course, you are a newb so you probably don't know what a true luscid cab looks like.

That's not the only thing I found fault with.  I find it ironic that the only arguements you can bring against my critique of your panel is the point of the buttons and my pointing out that you based it off Lucids designs...  Which, if you cared to actually read and comprehend my post(s), you'd note that I pointed out the Lucid deal because YOU moaned about how other people "ripped off" designs.  The ONE and ONLY reason I brought this up was because you did it yourself.

As for the buttons, that was a topic I touched on.  They are ugly.  They are Wack-a-mole.  But, I also touched on the topic of all that extra space you have.  You have this huge slab of wood and nothing on it.  It's ugly, plain and simple.  End of story. No arguement.  Get your facts straight before you *try* to respond to me.  So far, I've seen absolutely nothing from you that would run anyone off, just a big, whiney child who thinks he knows everything.  It's no skin off my nose if you want to flail around and throw a tantrum because the adults have slapped you back into place.  Get over it, your panel looks wretched, move on and build another one.

In other words you have nothing to complain about because my panels are just as clean and nice as I say they are.  

Once again, you seem to misunderstand me (intentionally, I hope) - I didn't say they wern't clean, and "nice" is subjective.  I said they were ugly, and all that extra space was pointless.  They are very clean (I would say austaire actually) - and I don't think they are nice at all.  But then again, that's my opinion, if you like it, great.  Go play on it, I couldn't care less.  I'm not forced to play on your panel, and I would never tell you how to build a panel.  I would offer my advice if you asked me, but since you haven't, I wouldn't presume to give it to you.

[Howard_Casto]

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=9304

[Apollo]

I guess there's just no dealing with some people.
Oh well, I hope you have fun on this board Inaba. Maybe you could start your own forum where flaming and threats are not considered totally noob and pathetic.
You have a nice day now.

[jerryjanis]

Inaba, you'd be better off posting topics that single out control panels that suck...  That's how you get respect around here, right Apollo?

(By the way, I really like Inaba's control panel from the original post...  It's perfect for that huge TV that it is sitting in front of...  It's a CP - it doesn't make a cabinet look unauthentic...  In front of a TV you would want 6 buttons for all 4 players for console games.).

[Apollo]

I have already apologised for singling out that control panel. I'm not going to apologise again. In retrospect there are much worse examples that I could have used or no example at all.
However I still stand by my comments that the panel is not a good effort. However like I have also said it's just one persons opinion. At no stage did I say the panel "sucked" and at no stage did I call it a "frankenpanel".
IMHO buttons of all different colours, multiple controls and admin buttons etc does not a good CP make.
When I post pics of my control panel I fully expect to get critiqued. Some will like it some will not.
If someone posts a pic of their control panel expecting to get only praise for it then they are sadly mistaken.
There are many opinions re MAME ( which is partly why it is such an interesting subject and makes for an interesting forum topic ), and all of them are valid as they are personal opinions.
It is unfortunate that this thread has degenerated into this.

[Geekboy]

I have already apologised for singling out that control panel. I'm not going to apologise again. In retrospect there are much worse examples that I could have used or no example at all.
However I still stand by my comments that the panel is not a good effort. However like I have also said it's just one persons opinion. At no stage did I say the panel "sucked" and at no stage did I call it a "frankenpanel".
IMHO buttons of all different colours, multiple controls and admin buttons etc does not a good CP make.
When I post pics of my control panel I fully expect to get critiqued. Some will like it some will not.
If someone posts a pic of their control panel expecting to get only praise for it then they are sadly mistaken.
There are many opinions re MAME ( which is partly why it is such an interesting subject and makes for an interesting forum topic ), and all of them are valid as they are personal opinions.
It is unfortunate that this thread has degenerated into this.
This is my last post on this thread.  

I got to ask.  Why do you even care what other people build?  What's the point?  If your not into 4 player CP's then simply don't build one.  

I'm not into the 4 player CP's.  But some people are.  Good for them.  The whole point to this site is building your own arcade controls.  So I hope everyone builds a panel that makes them happy.  Do whatever you want, and most importantly, have Fun!    Just take pics and show us!

[jerryjanis]

At no stage did I say the panel "sucked".

You're right...  Calling it "Totally crazy" and "out of hand" doesn't imply that it "sucked".  I apologize for putting words in your mouth.

IMHO buttons of all different colours, multiple controls and admin buttons etc does not a good CP make.

That's how the Neo Geo more or less does it.  The Neo Geo does it because it involves one arcade machine which plays many different games.  This way, there can be on-screen instructions telling the player how to control all the different setups...  That's good planning ahead for when Mame and/or the frontends can generate instruction cards.

[Apollo]

Ok, once and for all it's not 4 player cabinets that are the problem & it's not that Inaba's CP stuck out like a sore thumb as being particulary ugly or badly laid out it's just that IMHO it is leaning towards the absolute monstrosities below. Perhaps I should have put up one of these pics first.

[Apollo]

And another.

[Inaba]

I take it somehow poor lil' Howard has some how construed my post as a threat?  Perhaps it was a threat to his manhood, or his self-proclaimed position as the "bestus noobie beater on the planet!"  Who knows...  If I've misunderstood your link, Howie, please let me know.

Since he and Apollo somehow think I threatened him (them?) - I'd like you to point out where I've threatened anyone?

If someone posts a pic of their control panel expecting to get only praise for it then they are sadly mistaken.

This is such a misguided statement, I have to comment on this.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with reviewing my panel, or even saying it sucks.  You can say it's the most horrible vision of CP-ness you've ever has the misfortune to lay your eyes upon.  That's fine.  I posted my pics here, for good or ill, and that's my responsibility for doing so.  You are/were well within your rights to do whatever you please with those pictures I effectively made public by posting here.  

THAT is not the issue, Apollo.  What you fail to understand is, with the right to critique my panel also comes my right to respond to you.  If you expect to live in a vacuum where your thoughts and opinions are sealed in a box, and people disagreeing with you are anathema to what you stand for or believe is right, you are sadly mistaken.  You have the right to say what you want about my CP, but I also have the right to say what I want about my CP or your critiques of my CP (or anyone elses for that matter).

Don't get all flustered and bent out of shape like Howard has when someone will stand up to his BS or your egotistical comments.  You are reacting like a noob, which you eschew so vehemently, with your comments about my "flaming" and defense of peoples rights to have differing opinions.  It's a sophomoric response to any debate to delve into the waters you're already far to deep in for your experience.  Quit while you're ahead on this, trust me.

Has this thread deviated from the topic?  Yes, here and there it has.  It's fairly on topic, all things considered.  There hasn't been any real flaming going on, your (apparently) inexperienced opinions aside.  I can direct you to some forums with flames if you'd like to further your education on what a flame is... what you've seen here in this thread (and from what I've seen of the forums by extension) are not anything vaguely close to flames. Heated debate?  Some red-herrings thrown in?  Yep and yep... no flames though.

[SirPoonga]

You people are silly.

[Apollo]

I concur.

[SirPoonga]

I concur.

The first step is admitting you have a problem

[jerryjanis]

I concur.

Eeee heee ha ha!

I think it's silly how Apollo went back and edited his message to remove where he says, "This is my last post on this thread."

It's still there in the quote in Geekboy's response...

[Apollo]

God this is getting lame.

[SirPoonga]

God this is getting lame.

You are now first realizing it?

[Spaced Invader]

I thought this was over...  

Come on now, group hug...errr...need to call my therapist...

[shmokes]

Why won't this end?  

[Inaba]

We could turn this into the "Official Post Count Raiser" thread so all of us with less than 2000 posts could bump our count and we won't be n00bies anymore!  Yay!

[DarkKobold]

Wow


1st off, that second control panel... Are most of those even game buttons? What? Is that Saddam's Playstation 2_tm personal missile launching cabinet?

2nd, is this possibly the longest thread ever to grace the pages of the BYOAC message board? If so... cool!

[RandyT]

Boy am I glad my name didn't show up in this thread....err...ummm ooops!  

Oh well, as long as I'm in......

Saint said be nice.  That's the rule.  There aren't any others.  You can make your CP look like Mt. Rushmore with a 4-way coming out of George's forehead.  It up to you.  Whatever "rules" others try to inflict here don't mean squat.

Singleing out a particular person's CP is really just not a very nice thing to do.  I can fully understand why offense would be taken when someone puts down something you worked hard on, especially when it suits you just fine.

You folks might want to put yourself in the shoes of the other guy once in a while before making comments that are bound to hurt feelings.  Especially when the comments you make could just as easily be turned on you.

Man, if you could see one of my first CPs.  It had 2 WICO Red Balls, with 2 buttons per and a hacked Colecovision keypad (joystick removed, of course) next to each.  The CP was about 6 feet long (I'm not kidding, it was part of a wall unit) and stretched out in front of a 9-inch color TV.

But you know what?  That was over 20 years ago and it was still better than what any of you jokers had!  


RandyT

[saint]

And thus concludeth the thread....