What is going on here?

[Howard_Casto]

Well someone else misses the point again. I have already said I have nothing against 4 player panels and I also "admit" that I don't know enough people who would be that interested in playing a four player game who would be at my house all at the same time ( I'm 34 for gods sake not 13 ).
Four player panels are fine I have seen a few great examples ( emphasis on the "few' ). What I ( and Howard and others ) are talking about is panels that look crap ( and often have limited functionality ). Most of these are four player panels and most of them are first attempts.

Exactly, Excatly, Exactly.  You see kids, if it's your first panel, and this is your first woodworking project, you should not stray far from the sf2 layout.  Period, end of story.  No arguments.  Why?  
Because:

Building a control panel is hard.

You are new to mame on an arcade panel and don't know which specialty controls you'll really need yet.  

Your cab design is ripped of from someone else because you didn't have the talent to make one of your own, so what makes you think you can design the most crucial part of the cab by yourself.  

I can go on and on.


Also on the "player 3 and 4 are useful for other things" route.  No, they are not.  Unless you have a franken panel that is.  See in order to fit 4 players on a panel, player 3 and 4 have to be slanted at like a 45 degree angle.  If you don't angle these players then your cp is a surf board, and overpowers your whole cab.  Try playing robotron with one straight stick and the other crooked.  Sure it can be done, but it's very unnatural.  And forget about ikari warriors.  It's hard to use a postional joystick when north is 45 degrees to the left.  Again, it could be done, but I wouldn't reccomend it.  

These extra controls are best kept on  a second control panel, modular/rotational panel, ect.  Could it be done the way you are suggesting?  Sure it could, I just haven't really seen it done right yet, which is our point.  

Physically putting the controls on there and having them actually look nice, with each control serving an important funtion, and functioning well are two totally different things.  

[Frostillicus]

Well I would have responded earlier (darn I missed a whole page) but Cleveland has been lacking a little thing I like to call elec-tricity...  

The fact remains that hardly anyone builds just a 4 player panel.  They almost all turn into
Frankenpanels  The temptation to turn that real estate into functional controls is too great for most people.  And that's where things start getting out of control.  Me included on the first thing I built(see my first post).  It was a learning experience. You have to reach over 6 buttons to use the spinner, and hope you don't hit the back when you slam the trackball hard...There's no good way to do it except with separate/modular panels.  

But even in the arcade it didn't seem like the 4 player panels were  over 4 feet wide, which is pretty standard here .  4 feet? Is there a bartender on the other side of that thing?   A good 4 person panel to me would be 4 8ways with 4 buttons/player, and 4 start buttons.  That's pretty much it.

And Inaba: I said "2. How often will you have 3-4 people wanting to play those few games at once?", not "Do you have any friends?"

[night]

thats basically all my panel is frosty.
although it is wide as hell, i wanted plenty of room.
the first thing i built was a 'lap' panel, and 1/2 was just to close together.
on my mame cab, i made the 1/2 even extra farther apart beyond the tball and made the joy/buttons 1.5" farther apart.

[Daver4676]

Wow, my computer's finally up after the 'blackout' (I was in one of those 'super long darkness' areas a/k/a Queens, NY) and it seems this has escalated to a three page discussion.

Both sides make valid points.  What I can't agree with is people advising to 'stay simple' because it's my first attempt.  

After cutting the first few pieces of wood (incorrectly thanks to a screwy aiming thingee on my circular saw) I thought maybe my undertaking was too huge.  But after all the time, money and sweat I'm investing in my cab, I don't want the final product to be something I have lackluster feelings towards since I can't play certain games I really wanted to play.  So I correct my mistakes, learn from them, and press on...

I am using a rotating design and yes the mathematics involved with making sure it would actually work correctly made my head spin.  But when it's finally done I don't have to worry about building another cab to make up for my originals shortcomings.  

Who knows?  Maybe my control panel will look stupid.  Maybe it won't.  

It's nice that people seem to think that certain panels are "unattractive", but we're not taking about curtains here.  They're meant to be played with, not admired from afar by your mother-in-law's bridge club.  

Are their certain things I see in examples that I wouldn't do?  Of course.  But perhaps that's the way they like it - so I won't knock 'em.

As for four player controls panels -- you either want them or you don't want them.  I personally want them, even if they get used once.  To me, it's kind of like insurance or air bags -- you may need it one day, you may never need it, but it's probably good to have just in case.  

I don't see why there's a big movement to 'discourage ' 4-p cps.  Are we trying to make everyone's cab look exactly the same?  The person who you discourage may be the one who had a great innovation that you've quelled.    

[Richy]

I tried to design my control panel, with two players, 6 buttons each, a trackball, start buttons and 4 other buttons. I only just about fit that into a control panel, so both players have enough elbow room and their hands aren't twisted. I wonder what 4 player panels are like.

[Inaba]

Well someone else misses the point again. I have already said I have nothing against 4 player panels and I also "admit" that I don't know enough people who would be that interested in playing a four player game who would be at my house all at the same time ( I'm 34 for gods sake not 13 ).
Four player panels are fine I have seen a few great examples ( emphasis on the "few' ). What I ( and Howard and others ) are talking about is panels that look crap ( and often have limited functionality ). Most of these are four player panels and most of them are first attempts.

Exactly, Excatly, Exactly.  You see kids, if it's your first panel, and this is your first woodworking project, you should not stray far from the sf2 layout.  Period, end of story.  No arguments.  Why?  
Because:

Building a control panel is hard.

You are new to mame on an arcade panel and don't know which specialty controls you'll really need yet.  

Your cab design is ripped of from someone else because you didn't have the talent to make one of your own, so what makes you think you can design the most crucial part of the cab by yourself.  

I can go on and on.


Also on the "player 3 and 4 are useful for other things" route.  No, they are not.  Unless you have a franken panel that is.  See in order to fit 4 players on a panel, player 3 and 4 have to be slanted at like a 45 degree angle.  If you don't angle these players then your cp is a surf board, and overpowers your whole cab.  Try playing robotron with one straight stick and the other crooked.  Sure it can be done, but it's very unnatural.  And forget about ikari warriors.  It's hard to use a postional joystick when north is 45 degrees to the left.  Again, it could be done, but I wouldn't reccomend it.  

These extra controls are best kept on  a second control panel, modular/rotational panel, ect.  Could it be done the way you are suggesting?  Sure it could, I just haven't really seen it done right yet, which is our point.  

Physically putting the controls on there and having them actually look nice, with each control serving an important funtion, and functioning well are two totally different things.  

BWHAHAHA ... I have to laugh at this.  Do bells ring when you walk?  You've got to have some huge brass balls to make some statements like the above.  In addition to your huge cojones, I'd also wager to say you really don't have any idea what you're talking about.  If you lack enough talent to compensate for a cant in a joystick angle, then man, you've got more problems than trying to tell other people how to build panels.  I'm pretty flexible in my play styles, I pity you if you can only play in one position with only "exact" controls.  I think a fun competition would be to see how many positions you can play in and still be good... that'd be a true test of skill in a game

I dunno about you, but I sure as hell have zero[/b] problem using slightly offset joysticks...  My brain can easily compensate for the fact that up is not straight.  I'm not a caveman, I have deductive reasoning!  "push slightly to the left for up" is a concept that fits very easily into my game playing.  If I'm dual joysticking it, I don't even notice the few inch difference in the placement of the joysticks.

I can go on and on how crass and utterly juvenile the whole above post was, but what's the point?  It's obvious you are either a teenager or someone who still thinks like one to even begin to formulate a statement like that.  To have the gaul to state how other people feel and make broad, sweeping statements on how your way is right, no matter what is utter fallacy.  I think your credibility in voicing your opinion on the matter is about as successful as David Carusoe's career.  Sorry, man, but you just have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

I'm also not sure what being 34 has to do with having people at your house?  I'm 30, and I have people over fairly often, they are also in their 30's.  I guess we're all just young at heart... I hope I don't ever get too old to have people over to play games with.

[Apollo]

Well I almost didn't bother to reply to what essentially is the first flame on this thread.
Maybe you need to look at yourself and how all of the forum except for you managed to carry on a fairly civil discussion on a very contentious issue without resorting to your kind of gutter talk.
For a start you have quoted both Howard_Casto and myself so are you slagging off both of us or just me. For your sake I hope it's just me because Casto will be a lot harder on you than I.
I think maybe you should look at the tone of this thread because it is not some juvenile battle as you seem to think.
Bad form Inaba.

[jakejake28]

dude, Inaba, calm down some... no need to start a riot or anything, flaming Howard and all. just let it go really, cause he's Howard, he'll always offend someone .

really, if you disagree with him, just mentally note it or write something that doesn't scream FLAME!.

[hooded_paladin]

Try playing robotron with one straight stick and the other crooked.  Sure it can be done, but it's very unnatural.

That's why I didn't know what shape or size I wanted my CP... until I saw this guy's idea.
http://www.geocities.com/brian_coney/4PlayerPanel.html
He uses thread inserts and screws to mount his joysticks, and gives the center joysticks two sets of thread inserts - one facing straight like normal, one facing sideways to match the outside ones, so that two players can play dual-joystick games.  I plan to build my panel like this, so if I have a big hankering to play a two player dual joystick game, I can flip up my panel and take a screwdriver to it.  It may be rarely used, but there's the option to.  And that's my view on 4 player panels, too.

[night]

sorry but i agree with inabe on this one.
my cab will be complete soon (in the middle of getting a house right now) and it is my first cab. and i promise you some of the things ive done will turn some heads.
its incredibly naive (sp?) to assume us 'kids' cant build our own cab in the way -we- want it without regard to how it 'should be'.

the only way it should be is how i designed and built it. which just happens to be how *i* want it.


you really should be policing yourself.

[Mike]

It's nice that people seem to think that certain panels are "unattractive", but we're not taking about curtains here.  They're meant to be played with, not admired from afar by your mother-in-law's bridge club.  

Sorry bad argument. Cars are meant to be driven, but personally I prefer ones with out rust, that don't look like crap. I took the same mentality with my cabinet. I made it playable but also made it look good. My cab was a nasty dull gray redemption cabinet when i got it. At first I set it up and got it working and people looked at it like a piece of junk with a computer in it. So then I spent the time to clean it up and get it looking like a red Donkey Kong Cab, I also redid my control panel so it looked cleaner and worked better. The reaction I get now is like oh my god that is awesome. To me anything in my house I want it to look nice. I don't want smelly couches with cigarette burns and I don't want an ugly arcade cabinet.

[Inaba]

Well I almost didn't bother to reply to what essentially is the first flame on this thread.
Maybe you need to look at yourself and how all of the forum except for you managed to carry on a fairly civil discussion on a very contentious issue without resorting to your kind of gutter talk.
For a start you have quoted both Howard_Casto and myself so are you slagging off both of us or just me. For your sake I hope it's just me because Casto will be a lot harder on you than I.
I think maybe you should look at the tone of this thread because it is not some juvenile battle as you seem to think.
Bad form Inaba.

So let me get this straight... you slam my CP, calling it all sorts of names ranging from Frankenpanel to total crap and then it's bad form when I tell you both that you have no clue what you're talking about... AFTER you both try to tell me how I think and what I feel?[/b]

Yea... bad form.  Whatever you say!

Bad form is trying to tell other people that your opinion[/b] is the only true, right way to do things.  Bad form is telling people how they feel and should think.  THAT is bad form, not railing at an idiot who thinks his word is the word of god and if anyone doesn't believe in his teachings, they are WRONG WRONG WRONG!

[Apollo]

I have never used the words frankenpanel in any of my posts on this thread nor did I call your panel crap, get your facts straight.
None of the people who have posted to this thread and agree with my views have said that there is only one way to think and that is their way.
I think you need to read this whole thread from start to finish before you start making wild accusations.
I do not like your panel and others like it, I'm sorry if this offends you. It's only one persons opinion so I wouldn't get to upset about it.
You have done more than I have by actually finishing your panel so well done. I'm sure their will be opinions regarding my cab when it is finished that I won't like but I'm not going to have a little break down about it.
This thread started out as a reasonable discussion you have broken it down into a slanging match.
I am done with you and this thread. Thankyou all for up until now adding to what was an interesting discussion.

[APFelon]

Well, let's try to steer this in a more... civil direction.

When I designed my panel, my only concern was approachability. Sure, it would be cool to play sophisticated games like DoT or Cal50 on it or whatever, but I thought if I jammed everything but the kitchen sink on the panel it would overwhelm guests who wanted to give it a try.

After giving new users a few simple instructions, they are able to navagate Advmenu and select their favorite game. I don't have to stay over their shoulder and tell them which control does what; it is simple stuff. In fact, my three year old has a few favorite games on the cab. He knows how to select the game (by the screenshot), coin it up, and exit the game when he is finished-- and if a three-year old can operate it, I reason that my design is performing precisely the way I wanted it to be.

[Tommy Boy]

I can go on and on.

I hadn't noticed.  

[vusteveii]

Exactly, Excatly, Exactly.  You see kids, if it's your first panel, and this is your first woodworking project, you should not stray far from the sf2 layout.  Period, end of story.  No arguments.  Why?  
Because:

Building a control panel is hard.

You are new to mame on an arcade panel and don't know which specialty controls you'll really need yet.  

Your cab design is ripped of from someone else because you didn't have the talent to make one of your own, so what makes you think you can design the most crucial part of the cab by yourself.  

I can go on and on.

Here is a special treat for howard.  4player 8 buttons for 1/2 6 buttons for 3/4. Grand total of 42 buttons!  I can't wait to get some of the newer console emus up and running on it.  

1. this was my first woodworking project
2. this is my first panel
3. it wasnt that hard, i had more problems getting mamewah running then i did building the CP
4.  i designed the CP myself, its soooo unauthentic, but i love it
5.  the cabs only been running a week or two, but about 95% of the time its been played there have been 3-4 people on it.
6. its huge and its going to eat howard and all of the 4player panel haters

enjoy

[Apollo]

For the last time, we do not hate 4 player panels!
We hate ugliness.
Your panel is a great effort.

[Howard_Casto]

Your panel is a great effort, but believe me, you don't want me to comment any further.  

This isn't a picking on one person thing, it's a picking on 90% of the newbies thing.  You aren't the only one, but please people don't tempt me with specific examples.  I'm the Simon Cowell of cabinet judging.  I WILL tell you exactly how good or bad your panel is and it most likely will hurt your feelings.  Even if you have a fantastic panel I could probably find at least 2 or 3 major things wrong with it.

This thread is to discourage those who haven't started yet from making huge panels.  There isn't any point in showing me your end product as it can't be undone at that point, even if I don't like it.  

[Valence]

Wow   I actually had to put on galoshes to make it to this point in the thread.

Simon Cowell actually owns his own record label, which I believe makes him qualified to make the statements that he does. How is anyone here or anywhere else qualified to tell someone else that their CP is good or bad, especially when it deals with something that is objective.

I think that Apollo said it best. "Its only one persons opinion"
Even if it was a whole group of people that held the same opinion, its still just that, an OPINION, Not fact.

Most people that come here end up building multiple CPs as it is anyway. So if they want to make a panel with 100 buttons and 8 joysticks, than more power to them. After they are done, if THEY feel that it is to much, THEY can decide to build another one with less. Or more, or whatever THEY decide. Not someone else.
Offering someone else insight from your experience is one thing. Telling someone else what they are building is wrong because of aesethics is very pretentious

[vusteveii]

Your panel is a great effort, but believe me, you don't want me to comment any further.  

This isn't a picking on one person thing, it's a picking on 90% of the newbies thing.  You aren't the only one, but please people don't tempt me with specific examples.  I'm the Simon Cowell of cabinet judging.  I WILL tell you exactly how good or bad your panel is and it most likely will hurt your feelings.  Even if you have a fantastic panel I could probably find at least 2 or 3 major things wrong with it.

This thread is to discourage those who haven't started yet from making huge panels.  There isn't any point in showing me your end product as it can't be undone at that point, even if I don't like it.  

If i were worried about you hurting my feelings, i obviously wouldn't have posted the picture.  I love my panel, i really do, if i were starting over there isnt very much i would do differently.  Apparently you and apollo are taking this thread a little too personally as you both completely missed the tongue and cheek tone of my prior post.  

As far as your self proclaimed simon cowell personality, remember, he's essentially a performer on that show, he entertains us with his comments.  If he behaved like that amongst a group of his peers, he'd be in a pretty sorry shape for friends.  Maybe this is why you're having such a hard time finding 3 or 4 people to play games with you.

[paigeoliver]

Exactly, Excatly, Exactly.  You see kids, if it's your first panel, and this is your first woodworking project, you should not stray far from the sf2 layout.  Period, end of story.  No arguments.  Why?  
Because:

Building a control panel is hard.

You are new to mame on an arcade panel and don't know which specialty controls you'll really need yet.  

Your cab design is ripped of from someone else because you didn't have the talent to make one of your own, so what makes you think you can design the most crucial part of the cab by yourself.  

I can go on and on.

Here is a special treat for howard.  4player 8 buttons for 1/2 6 buttons for 3/4. Grand total of 42 buttons!  I can't wait to get some of the newer console emus up and running on it.  

1. this was my first woodworking project
2. this is my first panel
3. it wasnt that hard, i had more problems getting mamewah running then i did building the CP
4.  i designed the CP myself, its soooo unauthentic, but i love it
5.  the cabs only been running a week or two, but about 95% of the time its been played there have been 3-4 people on it.
6. its huge and its going to eat howard and all of the 4player panel haters

enjoy

I only have one "problem" with that control panel.

You have a picture of Pac-Man on it. You have a picture of Donkey Kong on it. You might as well add some DDR arrow graphics, and some Pole Position cars to your overlay as well.

Because, you cannot play either any of those games even halfway right with those joysticks.

[Mike]

See but your control panel doesn't give your cabinet the look or feel of an arcade cabinet. It looks like you stuck a table top on it. If you want something like that it would work much better and play better if you made a big screen style arcade machine where the control panel sits back a couple feet from the screen. Then it wouldn't be so akward. I think this is what everyone is getting at, think through your design. You can tell you only recently made your panel and I think I can say I wouldn't consider your cabinet completed yet, I think over time you will definately see what people are talking about and make your panel much smaller.

Also I like playing games they are meant to be played. So I have no interest at all at playing console emus on my arcade cabinet. I'd much rather park my butt on the couch when playing a console.

[Howard_Casto]

Since you asked.

#1 there isn't enough room for a trackball, you need a minimum of 3-4 inches in every direction clear to use a trackbal properly.  

#2 You have put worthless mouse buttons on the right of your trackball which woudl have gave you that 3-4 inches I was tlaking about.  Your tb is right against p1's button array so you could have used buttons 1-3 for the games like missile command ect.  Those three buttons just add to the clutter.  

#3  You have 8 buttons per player for player 1 and 2. What are those for?  No mame games use that many buttons plus a joystick and I don't see any consoles hooked to your "cab."  This one is subjective so I'll let you get away with it.  

#4 Your layout doesn't put the start/coin buttons exactly a certian distance from their respective controls. This isnt' necessary, but it a courtesy thing for your guests so they dont' have to reach in front of you to press start.  also it looks much nicer.  

#5  All your buttons are crooked.  This is probably due to you figuring out you wouldn't have enough room after you cut out the panel.  

#6  Your panel is curved towards the player. Regardless of the fact that I'm sure a lot of people catch their hip on those corners, the way you have it cut out poor player 3 and 4 have a tiny little trinagle to rest their hands on.  If you would have taken the smae panel and flipped it around it would have done much better and looked like it actually belonged on an arcade cabient.  I agree with the last post, that doens't look like it belongs on that cab at all.  

#7  You have 6 buttons for player 3 and 4.  What are those for?  There isn't a single 6 button, 4 player game on any platform, so those are just uselss.    

Note:  Beyond this point is artwork critiques, as this is subjective I normally don't comment on this, but since you volunteered yourself.  


#8  Your cp graphics don't have any theme or coheriance what so ever.    They are drawn in different styles, they have different color palletes, and they are a different size.  

#9   All of the characters are looking to the left.  Making the ones on the right side look t the right would have made all of teh difference in the world.  

#10  Your graphics aren't spaced out evenly, and by evenly I mean blancing the stuff on each side.  

#11  Your graphics are very very bright, but all of your buttons are black. If you would have allowed the characters to be partially covered by the controls, or used matching buton colors this would have worked great, but as-is they are kind of floating there on your plain blue background.  


But I would like to point out the things you did do right for fairnesses sake.  

#1  You button configurations are standard, the buttons are close together and they are clean and matching.  This type of stuff if often overlooked byt eh people here.  It looks very professional when the buttons are in tight configurations and very amateurish when they are spaced out.  

#2  You have the proper amount of blank space on your panel.  It may not be in the right places, but at least you didn't make a 6 foot panel for 2 joysticks and a button.  

#3 Your overlay and panel box are nicely finished.  It's very clean and professional looking.  I really wish more people would take the extra time to finsh their projects like you did.  Now the character arrangment and choice are another thing, but at least you didn't try to put 600 characters on the panel or take every single mame marquee and make an overlay out of it.  Overalys should look more like this and less like an ugly mess of random objects.  I saw some sideart made out of cahracters that someone did a while back, I won't name names, but it was an example of what not to do.  


Oh and for the guy that questioned my credentials, I've been in this hobby building panels for 5 years.  When you have that much flight time then you can question me.  

[dhansen]

Most people build the large control panels to maximise the GBZ  (Gay Buffer Zone) JK  

I just want to play the most games on one panel cause I'm lazy... and yes, I put my 4-way above my trackball!  (I don't care for Golden Tee)

Doug

[pointdablame]

I hate to jump into the ring so late in the match, but what the heck.

I personally am new to this hobby *obvious by my questions* and agree with what some have said in that as a n00b many people want to add everything to their CP to get the most "satisfaction" that they can.  I plan on doing that myself actually.  I am planning a 2p layout with a trackball, spinner, and additional 4way. Will I find a way to perfect the frankenpanel? No. Will I at least find an elegant way to incorporate it all w/out making it look like ass? Maybe, maybe not. Will I be happy with it? No, cuz I always think I can improve the things I do.

My point is... this hobby is an evolution. You try things, you learn things, you accomplish things, you fail things.  And with those failures and successes, you evolve your own personality. Howard obviously is not a fan of 4p monstosities with 3472345 controls. Others are, for whatever reasons. I am already seeing this in myself. I am not even knee deep in my first cab yet, and I've been planning a second. I personally dont WANT a frankenpanel, but necessity states that I should have it at first to play the games I want. Hopefully, I can make a second cab for just 4p games, or maybe with modular/spinning CP's, or who knows what.

I just don't see the point in bashing people's work. Maybe like me, it is what they can afford, what they think is right at the time, and what they just plain WANT TO DO.  I can't take on 4 cabs at a time even if I wanted to, so this is what I will have. With any luck, it will work the way I want and I can be pretty happy with it. Then down the line I can change it how I see fit.

I haven't really said anything new here, I just hope this can stay civil. This place is great cuz of the different people here. Hell, I almost look forward to having Howard and others beat me up when I post my CP. I can only learn from it or laugh at it. What do I really care tho, it's me that has to use the thing, not them.  Bring on the criticism, harsh or otherwise, but keep the insults to yourself.

[vusteveii]

Since you asked.

#1 there isn't enough room for a trackball, you need a minimum of 3-4 inches in every direction clear to use a trackbal properly.  

#2 You have put worthless mouse buttons on the right of your trackball which woudl have gave you that 3-4 inches I was tlaking about.  Your tb is right against p1's button array so you could have used buttons 1-3 for the games like missile command ect.  Those three buttons just add to the clutter.  

#3  You have 8 buttons per player for player 1 and 2. What are those for?  No mame games use that many buttons plus a joystick and I don't see any consoles hooked to your "cab."  This one is subjective so I'll let you get away with it.  

#4 Your layout doesn't put the start/coin buttons exactly a certian distance from their respective controls. This isnt' necessary, but it a courtesy thing for your guests so they dont' have to reach in front of you to press start.  also it looks much nicer.  

#5  All your buttons are crooked.  This is probably due to you figuring out you wouldn't have enough room after you cut out the panel.  

#6  Your panel is curved towards the player. Regardless of the fact that I'm sure a lot of people catch their hip on those corners, the way you have it cut out poor player 3 and 4 have a tiny little trinagle to rest their hands on.  If you would have taken the smae panel and flipped it around it would have done much better and looked like it actually belonged on an arcade cabient.  I agree with the last post, that doens't look like it belongs on that cab at all.  

#7  You have 6 buttons for player 3 and 4.  What are those for?  There isn't a single 6 button, 4 player game on any platform, so those are just uselss.    

Note:  Beyond this point is artwork critiques, as this is subjective I normally don't comment on this, but since you volunteered yourself.  


#8  Your cp graphics don't have any theme or coheriance what so ever.    They are drawn in different styles, they have different color palletes, and they are a different size.  

#9   All of the characters are looking to the left.  Making the ones on the right side look t the right would have made all of teh difference in the world.  

#10  Your graphics aren't spaced out evenly, and by evenly I mean blancing the stuff on each side.  

#11  Your graphics are very very bright, but all of your buttons are black. If you would have allowed the characters to be partially covered by the controls, or used matching buton colors this would have worked great, but as-is they are kind of floating there on your plain blue background.  


But I would like to point out the things you did do right for fairnesses sake.  

#1  You button configurations are standard, the buttons are close together and they are clean and matching.  This type of stuff if often overlooked byt eh people here.  It looks very professional when the buttons are in tight configurations and very amateurish when they are spaced out.  

#2  You have the proper amount of blank space on your panel.  It may not be in the right places, but at least you didn't make a 6 foot panel for 2 joysticks and a button.  

#3 Your overlay and panel box are nicely finished.  It's very clean and professional looking.  I really wish more people would take the extra time to finsh their projects like you did.  Now the character arrangment and choice are another thing, but at least you didn't try to put 600 characters on the panel or take every single mame marquee and make an overlay out of it.  Overalys should look more like this and less like an ugly mess of random objects.  I saw some sideart made out of cahracters that someone did a while back, I won't name names, but it was an example of what not to do.  

[Lilwolf]

Nice try on the CP.  Does player 3 and 4 work well?  The one I  had that had them pointing in at an angle only messed up kids that came over (they couldn't never figure it out at all) so I moved them pointing straight up / down again.

From that point on, I ALWAYS build a CP in just wood first... Then take it apart and put on some color.  So worse comes to worse... I just wasted a 1/3 of a MDF board.

Nice finishing job!  Looks great!

My biggest complaint is probably that your CP wont work for Total Carnage!  a GREAT game and worth trying to get 4 joysticks pointing in the same direction.  KChamps also... But TC is SO MUCH fun (add some beer and start trying to make up new stupid rules along the way and the fun just keeps going.

Have fun!

[menace]

My question is: why would anyone care what others think of their final control panel???  I can see asking for placement advice at the beginning, but to put your panel up here for others to critique is in my opinion useless and just asking for it--its already built to YOUR specifications--who gives a rat's ass what some guy in timbuctoo says about it?  If you built the panel, like the panel and can use the panel without much fuss, then everything else is pretty much moot--Am I the only one thinking this?  why has this thread gone on for 3 pages criticizing or commenting on this panel size and that panel size--if we all didn't have different opinions we would all end up with the same cabinet  

[Spaced Invader]

Why can't people understand that when it comes to CP design issues there is no right and wrong? Sure there are panels bigger than my dinning room table with control placements that would put a contortionist in traction. But maybe I WANT to play pacman with my forty-nine way, maybe I WANT five buttons just for my trackball, and maybe I want the most raddest ten player control panel ever! The point is, cab design is relative. What I like isn't necessarily what the guy I keep locked in my cellar likes. And my likes and dislikes are bound to change...I used to love my starwars bedspread and matching curtains but I've moved on...Lord of the Rings is MUCH cooler!

And Howard, let us "kids" make our mistakes...thats how we learn.  

Who's your Daddy?  

Opinions ALWAYS vary...but that's just MY opinion!

[Frostillicus]

If you want to play pacman with a 49way joystick, obviously that's up to you.  But there are certain generally accepted methods and designs to CP layout and that's what we are talking about.  Usually they revolve around simplicity, authenticity, and functionality.   For example, there is a reason most people choose a 6 button or neo geo button standard layout.  Because it's a standard fighter.

So, once again, for the record, we are not against 4-player panels, nor against each persons right to build whatever they want.  Go for it, at least you're building something  So far we've been just been giving advice based on our experiences that may help you in the long run - I still don't see why people think this is a bashing thing of some people being right and some people being wrong.

Ok back to the topic at hand...
The only critique I will post on that large CP above is this:  When you play 4-player, do the bodies of the inner 2 people get in the way of the viewing area for the outer 2 people?  Seems a little awkward.  Most people I know, including me, usually play arcades fairly close to the machine and looks like the arms/hips would get in the way of the monitor.  
 

[TalkingOctopus]

Sorry if this may be a little off topic...

Hey Howard, if possible, I would be very interested in seeing some of your work.  Almost everyone could probably learn something from it.  Although, there are allready a lot of good examples out there.

[night]

[saint]

Thanks!

--- saint

[Spaced Invader]

Hey Frost...
Wasn't talking to you specifically...I've seen your work and am VERY impressed. It's the bitter medicine that a couple people feel they HAVE to spoon up that puts that bad taste in my mouth. My point is everyone has opinions and sometimes they clash. I'm not saying advice is a bad thing. Not having to repeat the mistakes of those who came before is invaluable. But to say I shouldn't build a 4 player panel (I'm not buy the way) or shouldn't put console games in my cab (I AM doing that) is stepping into the realm of opinion. What I need/want is what I need/want. I also take issue with telling someone how bad their panel design is.

Pointles rant in 3...2...1...

Don't tell me how ugly my 400lb 10 player CP that I built from an old refridgerator door is. Either I already know it's ugly (ugly=any negative adjective for our purposes) or I'm quite happy with it and blissfully ignorant of the fact.

End rant  
 
I, of course, realize there are generally accepted methods. But sometimes stepping outside the box is a good thing. Unclet's sitdown with the spinning CP certainly isn't a "generally accepted" way of doing things...but that thing is awsome! TrickyFishy's mini machines aren't functionaly as good as a 1:1 scale cab but they are WAY cooler!   Even your own rotating panel (Frost) steps away from the norm and allows one cab to fill the shoes of many cab's in a unique, ellegant fassion. I just don't want imagination to be discouraged.

Agree or disagree as you will...opinions vary...and this is just mine.  

EDIT: Spelling

[Howard_Casto]

Sorry if this may be a little off topic...

Hey Howard, if possible, I would be very interested in seeing some of your work.  Almost everyone could probably learn something from it.  Although, there are allready a lot of good examples out there.

I didn't like my last panel because it was cluttered with extra buttons.  This is why I keep adding to this thread.    My new one (my 3rd)  is almost finished.  Until then you are welcome to look at my old panel on my then, unfinished cabinet.  

howardcasto.freeservers.com/ragingdragon/

Warning , pop-ups galore on this crappy webservice, and the webpage sucks.  

[Howard_Casto]

Hey Frost...
Wasn't talking to you specifically...I've seen your work and am VERY impressed. It's the bitter medecine that a couple people feel they HAVE to spoon up that puts that bad taste in my mouth. My point is everyone has opinions and sometimes they clash. I'm not saying a advice is a bad thing. Not having to repeat the mistakes of those who came before is invaluable. But to say I shouldn't build a 4 player panel (I'm not buy the way) or shouldn't put console games in my cab (I AM doing that) is stepping into the realm of opinion. What I need/want is what I need/want. I also take issue with telling someone how bad their panel design is.

Pointles rant in 3...2...1...

Don't tell me how ugly my 400lb 10 player CP that I built from an old refridgerator door is. Either I already know it's ugly (ugly=any negative adjective for our purposes) or I'm quite happy with it and blissfully ignorant of the fact.

End rant  
 
I, of course, realize there are generally accepted methods. But sometimes stepping outside the box is a good thing. Unclet's sitdown with the spinning CP certainly isn't a "generally accepted" way of doing things...but that thing is awsome! TrickyFishy's mini machines aren't functionaly as good as a 1:1 scale cab but they are WAY cooler!   Even your own rotating panel (Frost) steps away from the norm and allows one cab to fill the shoes of many cab's in a unique, ellegant fassion. I just don't want imagination to be discouraged.

Agree or disagree as you will...opinions vary...and this is just mine.  

To quote mother's everywhere.  "Sometimes what you want and what you need are two different things dear.  Listen to your elders, they almost always know best."

[Spaced Invader]

Sorry, dad...I guess your God complex was clashing with my Napoleon complex.  

 

[Inaba]

Sorry if this may be a little off topic...

Hey Howard, if possible, I would be very interested in seeing some of your work.  Almost everyone could probably learn something from it.  Although, there are allready a lot of good examples out there.

So wait... let me get this straight.

You supposedly have *5 years* experience in building control panels.  But in those five years... you've built exactly 2 and are working on a third?  Then... let me quote from your website:

My humble beginnings with arcade controls started in the summer of 98, when I decided to build my own control panel. You won

[Daver4676]

Sorry bad argument. Cars are meant to be driven, but personally I prefer ones with out rust, that don't look like crap.

I wasn't talking about decorating your cab with scratch and sniff stickers, poster paint and dried macaroni.   I used quotes around the word 'unattractive' in my original post to imply that they weren't really unattractive, just slightly unconventional.  

I'm seen, through many examples, control panels you'd never see in an arcade.   I've even seen actual arcade cabs that seems out of place in an arcade (handlebars on a control panel? - GAD ZOOKS... and let's not forget the oddly/lovely Discs of Tron mini-room).   There are tons of instances that a design defies the standard upright/cabaret/cocktail/cockpit/etc. varieties.  It may be shocking, but sometimes those 'Frankenpanels' can play quite well.  

[Howard_Casto]

First off, Inaba, learn how to operate the frikkin board.  It's hard to read your comments when you put them inisde the quote.  

Secondly you are making assumptions, and you know what happens when you do that.  

Firstly , those pics are not what it looks like today.  It looks totally different.  

Also you have no clue what I've been up to.  I don't count my projects unless they are successful or big, unlike others on this board who post a new "project" everytime they hack a joypad to an arcade stick. (Not that there is anything wrong with that, I'm just saying.)  I've made several prototypes, but I only count three as they were used a lot. I have been building constantly for 5 years.  

I don't care what you think of my cab, but if you think it's cheesy then you must dislike mk2 cabs.  Inch for inch it's almost exactly the same.  

Besides, this is a thread about control panels.  Fit and finish aside, I challenge you to to say that it's a bad cp layout.  It's not perfect but it's definately not bad.  And it's obviously not a tacky cab.  

I refuse you comment on your comments about the web page that I spent all of 30 seconds putting up for the benefit of this thread and others like it.  You are making assumptions again, I didn't rip my page design off of anyone, it's all mine.  

This isn't a flame message, please get over yourself and get back to the topic at hand, namely bad control panel layouts and their merits/drawbacks.  

thank you