What is going on here?

[CCM]

see, i'm with paige all the way on this one... multiple cabinets. i have my vertical 4-way with 4 buttons (cocktail), a trackball, spinner, dual optical rotarys (reg. upright) and a two player street fighter layout (reg. upright) and i have never had any problems. maybe you all should think about that...

while multiple cabinets are a great idea, not everyone has the money or space for them....

[AlanS17]

I never read this thread til today. Now I see why it's getting large.

I admittedly have alot of controls on my panel, but I don't feel like they're all over the place.

I've got:
2 "Street Fighter" layouts
1 4-way (uses 1P buttons)
1 topfire
1 trackball w/ 3 buttons
1 spinner

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=8798
(without 4-way, spinner, or topfire cutouts)

However, this all fits in a decently small space. The thing is not huge and there is no stretching. However, the thing was well thought out (IMO) and doesn't have alot of other stuff in the way when you try to play a game.

Grabbing the right control would be the only issue for such a CP layout. However, if you know the game you wanna then you should also know what the layout is for it. You don't reach for the trackball to play a fighting game. Even then, though, spinner and TB games work with the joys, too. So playing them may be incorrect if someone grabs the wrong control, but it would still work. Ya know?

It beats someone damaging my CP trying to rotate it or interchange panels.

My next (more private) machine will likely have rotating/interchangeable controls and hopefully even a rotating monitor.

However, one look at my machine, and I don't think you would get the impression of a "frankenpanel". It's purdy. You'll see...

On a final note, I'm happy with it and it's bulletproof (and frat-proof). What else matters?

[Inaba]

1. Seriously, how many 4-player games are there  (even counting the bad ones) compared to 2 player?
2. How often will you have 3-4 people wanting to play those few games at once?
3. How long until the novelty of 4-player wears off and the games get boring?

answers:  1: "not many"; 2: "not very"; 3: "not long". Nobody likes it, but some games just get old.

Your answers are wrong...  1. Enough; 2. Quite often; 3. It won't

But regardless... another reason I went with a 4 player panel was the fact that there are a few games that require 2 joysticks to play.  Karate Champ comes to mind.  It's so simple a game, it never gets old.  You need 4 sticks to play that game... so how do you do it on a 2 player panel with just 2 sticks?  You can only play the computer... how boring.

A little forethought will reveal there are many reasons to have a 4 player panel.  Just because one person doesn't have a lot of friends over to play doesn't mean other people don't.  Additionally, the original intention of my design was to have the player 3 & 4 sticks be rotary sticks, thus making them usable for 2 player Ikari warriors, heavy barrel, tank, etc...  and the center two sticks (player 1 & 2) being more of the traditional fighter type sticks, with smooth motion, etc...

There's plenty of reasons for a 4 player panel, and just because there is the ability to play 4 people at once doesn't mean that's all it can do.

[Howard_Casto]

1. Seriously, how many 4-player games are there  (even counting the bad ones) compared to 2 player?
2. How often will you have 3-4 people wanting to play those few games at once?
3. How long until the novelty of 4-player wears off and the games get boring?

****edit***
nm the board screwed up and ate my message, i'm not typing all of that again.  

[jerryjanis]

Huh, I thought the whole idea behind building your own panel was that it doesn't have to please everybody - only you (and maybe some friends if you have them).

[AlanS17]

1. Seriously, how many 4-player games are there  (even counting the bad ones) compared to 2 player?
2. How often will you have 3-4 people wanting to play those few games at once?
3. How long until the novelty of 4-player wears off and the games get boring?

****edit***
nm the board screwed up and ate my message, i'm not typing all of that again.  

It's a sign!  

[Hoagie_one]

I thought the whole idea behind building your own panel was that it doesn't have to please everybody - only you (and maybe some friends if you have them).

Aye, if you have em

[AlanS17]

C'mon, Howard. I DARE you to say my CP is gonna be ugly.  

[jerryjanis]

Phase 1 is over.  Next we need the Build Your Own Friends Message Board.

[AlanS17]

Phase 1 is over.  Next we need the Build Your Own Friends Message Board.

But you still need BYOAC machine to train them...

[Edgedamage]

Not to take anything away from anyone who has built 4-p panels. But nothing looks more out of place than a 4-p
panel on a classic cabinet. Now mind you the build your own cabinet kits/plans look good with a 4-p panel. Now this is going to get me killed/banned but the other day I was showing a friend who sells original classic games mame. I asked him what he thought of mame and he said "playing mame is like watching a porno it makes you want the real thing"

[Spaced Invader]

--snip--
the other day I was showing a friend who sells original classic games mame. I asked him what he thought of mame and he said "playing mame is like watching a porno it makes you want the real thing"

The fact that your friend SELLS original games wouldn't have anything to do with that comment...would it?  

[Apollo]

Hmmmm well firstly I apologise to anyone I offended with my comment and in hindsight I shouldn't have used a specific example to "slam".
Of course everyone has their own ideas for CP's and all the ideas are valid and if everyone was the same this forum would probably suck big time.
To be honest when I started this thread it was 3am in the morning and I had just come in from a party i.e. I was worse for wear if you know what I mean. I make a solomn vow not to start any threads when drunk and tired.
I still think that aesthetics are important though and sometimes there are better ways to do things.
Once again apologies to those offended.

I'm sure that when I announce my completed project you will have a chance for revenge and can flame me to hell for my apalling taste in building my cabinet lol  

[AlanS17]

Just avoid marble contact paper and you'll probably be fine.  

(I'll probably be hearing it from someone for that comment, too.)

[Mike]

See you people with your 4 player control panels and 200 admin buttons, you just had to have them now you knocked out power to a good portion of the country.

[AlanS17]

See you people with your 4 player control panels and 200 admin buttons, you just had to have them now you knocked out power to a good portion of the country.

That's just how many buttons and controls it takes to conduct a nuclear strike. The power outage is no accident. You should be feeling the efects for yourself soon enough. MUAHAHAHA!!!

(Ok that was retarded...)

[joeblade]

Hey frostillicus, yet again a personal opinion that others may disagree with.

As an opposing opinion:

If you don't limit the cab to mame, but inlcude a few consoles, there are tons of 4 player games.

Furthermore, I reckon once built my 4 player CP will have atleast 3 players on a daily basis, even if its just so my kids can whip my arse !

 

DOH - Just discovered theres a 2nd page to this thread, Frostillicus's post was ages ago .. apols.

[Howard_Casto]

Hey frostillicus, yet again a personal opinion that others may disagree with.

If you don't limit the cab to mame, but inlcude a few consoles, there are tons of 4 player games.

Furthermore, I reckon once built my 4 player CP will have atleast 3 players on a daily basis, even if its just so my kids can whip my arse !

 

actually this is not true at all.  

First off consoles aren't meant to be played on arcade cabs.  Secondly when you whittle them down using my forumla (which was lost in that previous post)  there are around 20 games playable on consoles, and that's assuming you hook up every single modern console known to man to the dang thing.  

This isn't an opinon it's common sense.  When you whittle it down there isn't a whole lot of use for 4 player cabs in the home.  

My lost post explained all of this in great detail but I'll just end this with what i ended it with.  

I've been here for a long time and I've talked to a lot of people over the years.  So far I've yet to find a single person that can honestly say that building a 4 player cab was worht it.  (As in the amount of use player 3 and 4 gets justifies the added expense, clutter ect.)

I challenge anyone to find someone with a good experience regarding this type of setup.  Sure some are happy but if you ask them what would you change they always say... "I would have made it 2 player, or simplier ect."

The rules are simple, the cab has to be at least 3 months old and the 3rd and 4th players have to be used at least half as often as the main 2 player sections.  And they must not regret the decision of making the panel 4 player.  

If you qualify and wish to defend your decision please post it here.  I would genuinely love to hear about it.  

 

[hooded_paladin]

Do people with star wars yokes use them at least half as much as the other controls?  4 player is just another option that people can choose whether or not they pass some quota.

[Howard_Casto]

Do people with star wars yokes use them at least half as much as the other controls?  4 player is just another option that people can choose whether or not they pass some quota.

Is this a question about star wars yokes?  And for that matter people very rarely have a sw yoke on their cab, so that should tell you something.  There are over 3000 members, I'm just looking for one to come forward.  

[hooded_paladin]

There are few people with star wars yokes because few people have the time, money and desire to make them.  But the ones that DO should use them at least 1/2 the time of any other game, if we transfer your expectations from one control panel option to another.  Point is, people don't have to use it very much at all to be glad they added it.

[night]

i definitly wanted to be able to play twin joy games, and whats 12 more buttons after that

and i dont meet ur qualifications there howard, but i have a roommate and we have friends over all the time. NBA jam is a fav so for. but i wanted 4 player for nintendo stuff. bomberman is a great game we've enjoyed and there are many great 4P nin games. i did try to start a thread to list 3/4P games for all systems but no one took it seriously. i will be working on making that list myself later though.

it just seems incredibly stupid to me to at least not give yourself the option of playing 4 ppl. i hate nothing more than having friends over and them having to sit there and watch while others play and go threw the hassle of taking turns.
if you cant have ppl be active and involved, then turn your 2 player cab off and dig out a deck of cards.

[u_rebelscum]

IMO:

"Total number of games with xxx" has nothing to with if you should make a CP with xxx.  What matters is "number of games with xxx you love to play".  Plus playability and (very minor) looks.

I have a two trackball CP; number of games in mame that use two TBs: ~65, including clones and cocktail cabs.  Number of these games I love: three, with a few more I "just" like.

I'm going to make a two 360^o wheel CP; number of games with this type controller: ~50.  Numbers of games I'm really doing it for: four, with a few more I'll just like.

I'm going to make a CP with a 720^o controller; number of games that use that controller: one.  Guess how many of those I "have" to play.

The whole reason I started doing what is now MameAnalog+ was for only two games: MarbleMadness & Cabal (although I "remembered" more games since then).  Most features added were based on two or three games I loved that would play better with that feature.   Heck, I added dual lightgun support (winME/98 only) and I haven't found any two player (real) lightgun games I truely love.  

So I don't see anything at all wrong with others making 4 player CPs for just a few games, if they truely "have" to play them (and the cab can fit the CP).


OTOH, I totally do not agree with frankenboards that sacrifice overall usablity, comfort, and looks to squeeze in five more controllers.  I say go swapable, modular, or rotating instead.

[Howard_Casto]

So I don't see anything at all wrong with others making 4 player CPs for just a few games, if they truely "have" to play them (and the cab can fit the CP).


OTOH, I totally do not agree with frankenboards that sacrifice overall usablity, comfort, and looks to squeeze in five more controllers.  I say go swapable, modular, or rotating instead.

I agree with everything you've said, BUT you have to remember my point.  YOU may love the games, but in order to justify a 4 player panel 3 other people have to love them just as much.  That simply doesn't happen when you are talking retrogaming.  Well it does, but it's a rarity.    

I mentioned the lack of 4 player games to visualize the slim odds of finding some good games that you and three buddies will really like.  I didn't mean that quantity=quality.  As you notice, I pointed out that out of all the mame games only a small portion of the games are played by the average mamer.  That was to point out this issue, apparently you didn't understand that part of my post.  

Also you make good points about the 4 player panels.  Yes you can make a nice one, it's just I haven't seen one around here yet.    People add the useless extra buttons to player 3 and 4, 12 control buttons, a trackball, ect and make it into one of those franken panels that you mentioned.  

I think that veterans can do a nice, clean 4 player panel, but newbies need more practice first.  You need to start out simple and build more as you need it.

[night]

so i take it you dont like my panel

[Apollo]

so i take it you dont like my panel

Where is your panel?

[joeblade]

This is good that some opinions are being voiced, thats what forums like these are all about .... it allows people to get a better understanding of others (well so the theory goes anyway).

Now to add another 2 cents from me (think I am upto 6 cents worth now)

> I agree with everything you've said, BUT you have to
> remember my point.  YOU may love the games, but in
> order to justify a 4 player panel 3 other people have to
> love them just as much.  That simply doesn't happen
> when you are talking retrogaming.  Well it does, but it's
> a rarity.    

Just for the record, I (or my situation) will put my hand up to be counted as one of those rarities. I don't think I have any mates that are not into arcade / video (console whatever) games from yesteryear (and today).
Heck even my wife is into the whole thing ....

My closest group of friends - we used to go to the arcades a fair bit back in the 80's (I am 34 now), and plundered whads of cash into stuff like gauntlet, TMNT, etc. I still frequently (probably atleast once a month) see these mates aswell.

A couple of them are nagging me now to hurry up and get my cab finished so we can get the multiplayer thing happening (not just the mame stuff, but games under other systems aswell).

For me, the whole concept of a bunch of mates sitting on some bar stools, in front of a whopping vertical cab with 27" monitor, pounding on the control panel like there lives depended on it, is way better than sitting on the floor, infront of the telly playing an x-box or something.


Also I am not interested in any spinner or trackball games, as that isn't what I played when I grew up (I will probably build a 2nd cab, if the interest is there for that sort of stuff), hence to justify the extra cost (and minimise the required real-estate) of a 4 player CP I am leaving off the spinner, trackball on this cab.

In all honesty, it doesn't even worry me if the 3rd, 4th players only get used a couple of times a year (although I doubt that will happen, minimum of once a month I would say), as the enjoyment of playing with mates, say after a BBQ and beers far surpasses (for me anyway) the solo enjoyment - we tend to have mates around often, so it all works out well.

 

[Nannuu]

First of all before I start I'd like to say that I don't have a problem with anyone's cabinet or cp.  They are all cool!  Whether they were $50 or $3000 they still play games and they were built by a person that likes to play'em.  Even if it has a joystick and two buttons you can play most of the stuff out there and have a good time with it.
 
I plan on building a 4 player cp with all kinds of stuff on it.  I will be making a rotating design to lessen the clutter but I'll do my best to play lots and lots of stuff on there.  The 3rd and 4th player wings will stay stationary while the center rotates to more controls.  Why build a 4 player?  Gauntlet series, TMNT, Xmen, Dungeons and Dragons and Golden Axe (TRODA).  My wife and I like to host game nights which always net plenty of people to play with so although I won't always have 3 friends to play I will often enough.

Now I may end up building a two player cab or a cocktail after this is done.  But for what may be my only Mame cab I'd like to play as much on there as I can.

[Tommy Boy]

I love these kinds of threads!  I'll bet when we're all done debating this, everyone will be in 100% agreement with one another  

BTW, if those of you deemed to be in possession of "offensive" CP's, plans for offensive CP's, or even with intent to build an offensive CP would kindly add your name and address information to the thread, someone (Howard) will be right over to confiscate the offending device, burn it, kick your dog, and knock down your house  

You will all come to thank the CP police for the service that they provide by ridding the CP gene pool of those CP's that are not "fit" to procreate.  Believe me, this will be a stronger hobby and community if we all get behind a common aesthetic.

My only question: could someone in authority please post the "approved" layout so that I don't unwittingly build a CP that could be viewed as perverted or deviant?  

[Mike]

I totally understand where Howard is coming from. Because the fact of the matter is when you first get into it you think you want to play everything. But once you have your cabinet up and running for a while playability is the biggest concern. You don't want joysticks or other controls in the way of controls your trying to use.

What you really want is something that will work. Howard isn't saying adding a trackball or making a 4-player cp is wrong, he's just saying all these newbies want to stick a gallon of crap in a one quart bucket.

Make something simple and use it for a while. After you've played it for a while then reevaluate what you have and change it if you need to. That is why when ever anyone asks what they should do for thier first CP I say stick 2 joysticks on it and some buttons and start playing.

[MiKman]

I know it's not authentic, but for what it's worth I want to add what I have done with my cp. I am in the midst of making a 2 player panel with the following on it:

2 - 8 ways + 6 buttons each
1 - 4 way + 2 buttons
1 trackball + 3 buttons (for missle command)
1 spinner (same 2 buttons as the 4 way)
1 up button
2 up button
coin buttons are not on the control panel, and I still haven't decided if I want dedicated admin buttons for esc, pause yet.

I do want to be able to play 4 player games and for this I installed 2 usb ports on the front lower  of my cabinet (almost hidden) to plug in a couple of game pads.  It works and my control panel is configured for most of the games (as someone said prolly 95%).  The boys will be able switch off between 'real' controls and gamepads and everyone is happy. :-)

my 2 cents. and when I get some pics I'll post em and you can flame it :-)

MiKman

[jakejake28]

I love these kinds of threads!  I'll bet when we're all done debating this, everyone will be in 100% agreement with one another  

'cept Howard

j/k

[hooded_paladin]

BTW, if those of you deemed to be in possession of "offensive" CP's, plans for offensive CP's, or even with intent to build an offensive CP would kindly add your name and address information to the thread, someone (Howard) will be right over to confiscate the offending device, burn it, kick your dog, and knock down your house  

So, Mr Casto, just show up in Cali and I'm sure you can find me (and my dog   ) by the stench of my 4-player template!

[Apollo]

My idea here was not to slag of four player panels per se.
My point was that there are good and bad four player panels, some look ridiculous, some don't.
I don't see why aesthetics should be sacrificed just because you want a four player panel. Keep clean lines, no admin buttons ( you don't need any ), don't have 10 different colours of button etc. You know what I mean.

[Howard_Casto]

My idea here was not to slag of four player panels per se.
My point was that there are good and bad four player panels, some look ridiculous, some don't.
I don't see why aesthetics should be sacrificed just because you want a four player panel. Keep clean lines, no admin buttons ( you don't need any ), don't have 10 different colours of button etc. You know what I mean.

I agree whole-heartedly.  The thing is though, there isn't a kind way to put this, but out of the population in general, the average person has no sense of asthetics.  It's a very slim percentage of us who are actually able to come up with a good design, or even recognize a bad one.  

Kinda like people who wear checks with stripes, they don't know it looks awful, so they'll defned their awful outfit to the death!

I'm not knocking anyone inparticular here.  It's just some of us are artists and others are insurance salesman.  Insurance pays better so don't sweat it.  I can just pick an outfit better than you.  

[SirPoonga]

modular or removable panels (like jerry's, that rocks).  tHat's the answer people.  I designed my removable, but I am going to change it to a second CP that is module.  My main CP is good for most of everything I play.

[joeblade]

Weh hey, I think we are approaching the point of everyone being 100% agreement with each other (as was discussed earlier) ... phew.

Some good points came out of the thread though.


I must say, that rotating CP (can't remember whose it is now, saw it a couple of months back) is a classic. Very clever idea, must have been non-trivial to implement though.

Now, its friday arvo, wheres my beer gone ...

 

[paigeoliver]

My idea here was not to slag of four player panels per se.
My point was that there are good and bad four player panels, some look ridiculous, some don't.
I don't see why aesthetics should be sacrificed just because you want a four player panel. Keep clean lines, no admin buttons ( you don't need any ), don't have 10 different colours of button etc. You know what I mean.

I agree whole-heartedly.  The thing is though, there isn't a kind way to put this, but out of the population in general, the average person has no sense of asthetics.  It's a very slim percentage of us who are actually able to come up with a good design, or even recognize a bad one.  

Kinda like people who wear checks with stripes, they don't know it looks awful, so they'll defned their awful outfit to the death!

I'm not knocking anyone inparticular here.  It's just some of us are artists and others are insurance salesman.  Insurance pays better so don't sweat it.  I can just pick an outfit better than you.  

I am one of those people who KNOWS they don't really have that sense. That is why I just try to copy pre-existing designs.

Although I just installed my new controls in my Amazing Maze, and I am not sure they look right. 2 long handled Wico 8-ways, with 6 white buttons per player, and start buttons. I guess it is because the rest of the cabinet is more muted tones, 70s style greens, and some pale orange. I would have went with all black controls, but I didn't think of it first, and I am not sure they make the repro Wico long handles in black anyway.

[Inaba]

Why are Howard and Apollo jumping on the "no one plays 4 players" bandwagon, when it's been said by me and several others... and is just plain *common sense* --

Just because a panel has the ability to play 4 players does not mean it can ONLY be used as a 4 player panel.

The design of my panel was the intent of having 2 players primarily, with the option to have 4 players.  I know I'm repeating myself, but the point seems to be lost on some people...

A Happ  360 stick isn't appropriate for Ikari warriors/tank/heavy barrel/etc...  A rotary stick isn't appropriate for Street Fighter.  Neither of those is appropriate for DoT/anything that requires a trigger/topfire button.  And to add insult to that injury, NONE of those sticks alone are appropriate for Karate Champ/Robotron/multi-stick games.

With a 4 player panel, guess what?  You can have at least 3 of those 4... possibly all 4 if you're creative enough and are willing to build a frankenstick (Combo rotary/topfire/trigger).  Sorry that you guys either a) have no friends or b) eschew games that require certain types of sticks... but not all of us play fighter games exclusively.  I *love* DoT & Robotron.  For both of those, I need certain kinds of sticks.  I also love mixing it up with my neighbors in Karate Champ... guess what?  We can't play that game without a minimum of 4 sticks on the panel... so how do you propose to play games like Robotron or Karate Champ w/o a 4 stick machine?  Sure, you could make a panel designed specifically for that... but since you're going to have 4 sticks on the panel anyway, why not give it the option to allow 4 people to play at once as well, instead of limiting yourself to 2 player for no apparent reason?

There are a number of asethetic things I would change on my panel given infinite time/desire... but as far as placement and color choices, I believe my panel looks pretty good in the asthetic department, with the exception of the topfire stick, which I swapped out with a red-handled one like the green.  I've found that more often than not, people who claim they have some great asthetics sense actually have very little education or training in practical asthetics.  There are a lot of complimentary colors/designs/shapes that just don't work in some situations or are counterintuitive to a less asthetically pleasing design.  Often times, form must follow function, otherwise you end up with a product that's pleasing to the eye, but totally useless in practice...

Anyway, bottom line is, 4 player panels can be used for much more than 4 player games.  Limiting your criteria to 4 player games only as a basis to build or not to build a 4 player panel is ridiculous in the extreme.  It's akin to not installing A/C in your car because it gets cold in the winter.  It just makes no sense.

[Apollo]

Well someone else misses the point again. I have already said I have nothing against 4 player panels and I also "admit" that I don't know enough people who would be that interested in playing a four player game who would be at my house all at the same time ( I'm 34 for gods sake not 13 ).
Four player panels are fine I have seen a few great examples ( emphasis on the "few' ). What I ( and Howard and others ) are talking about is panels that look crap ( and often have limited functionality ). Most of these are four player panels and most of them are first attempts.