How do you know your JAMMA PCB is legal?

[SavannahLion]

I'll come out and say it since no one else seems to. Driver-Man, you are immensely stupid.

You are drawing conclusions about the legality of a particular item based on the actions/laws in completely unrelated areas. Worse, you have assumptions about people at customs, the actions of the seller and a set of uninformed notions about tax and import laws.  If you had bothered to read the links I gave you, the answer is in Section 1201.

I have cited several sources, more than once, showing the folly of your flawed logic and reasoning. Where are your cited sources that support your argument?

At this point I'm inclined to believe that you're simply trolling. Obviously misleading statements such as your Coca-Cola comment, your refusal to read any of the citations given, as well as your refusal to actually give any citations supporting your view point would lead me to no other conclusion.

[Driver-Man]

It's still an illegal product, It's illegal to resell or operate.  Ignorance is no defence.  Being taxed by the government has nothing to do with it, how were they meant to know the exact legal status of the item, that's your responsibility, just as it is when buying any other product. 

At least we are down to last question/argument, thank you everyone!

Ok, again we know all the opinions, so I will not repeat any more of mine, the question now is how do we settle this? Shall we ask someone? Maybe have a look in some dictionary, Wikipedia? What legislation could possibly hold the definite answer to this question. How do we prove this either way?

If I sell and invoice you for a 'luxury powdered substance' and pay the government what they're due do think think the cops are going to be any more lenient on you when they find you reselling it on the street corner?

That is not it. You are counterfeiting invoice there too. There is a difference between infringing copyright and being illegal. There is a list which probably can be found at the customs office web site, the list of every single item category, from toothpick to airplane, including arcade PCBs, cabinets and arcade parts, together with liquor, tobacco, heroin... it defines legality, tax rate, fines, penalties, and such... but, infringing copyright, no one can be expected to know about it. -- And, I'm not making any justification or moral whatever, just figuring out the facts... I thought we are all on the same side here, I still have no idea why some people seem to not like what I say.

'Should be free' is your opinion, but unless the companies release them for free, or the copyrights expire, they can't be considered free.  If you want to do something about that you'll have to somehow get all copyrights shortened, or conditionally made to expire once a product has 'no commercial value'.  Until that happens (which it won't) it's still a legal minefield.  Most of the boards you're talking about are running unlicensed copies of MAME anyway, so it would still be illegal even then.  Note, these things also run Pacman / Ms Pacman / Galaga and so are in DIRECT competition with the new rereleases Namco are pushing out, that would be your biggest threat.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/24691/InDepth_Exploring_Ultracades_Alleged_Counterfeit_Arcade_Game_Racket.php

is still the latest update on Ultracade / Foley afaik.

I believe there was a previous case where they were forced to stop using unlicensed Namco property too, it's been mentioned a few times.

So, Ultracade bribed government with $100,000 and went back to continue as usual. No actual copyright owner pressed charges? So, who pressed charges - gamasutra? What in the world were they trying to do? Game companies and actual copyright holders never complained to authorities about Ultracade, it was all gamasutra playing some sort of "arcade police", but at the end game companies stopped to respond to gamasutra, they seem to become bothered of gamasutra pulling public statements from them, as if companies were not really sure to actually have proper copyrights, or were utterly uninterested in the case, none of which makes sense, but that's what happened, right?

[Driver-Man]

I'll come out and say it since no one else seems to. Driver-Man, you are immensely stupid.

You are drawing conclusions about the legality of a particular item based on the actions/laws in completely unrelated areas. Worse, you have assumptions about people at customs, the actions of the seller and a set of uninformed notions about tax and import laws.  If you had bothered to read the links I gave you, the answer is in Section 1201.

I have cited several sources, more than once, showing the folly of your flawed logic and reasoning. Where are your cited sources that support your argument?

At this point I'm inclined to believe that you're simply trolling. Obviously misleading statements such as your Coca-Cola comment, your refusal to read any of the citations given, as well as your refusal to actually give any citations supporting your view point would lead me to no other conclusion.

Why insults, what is wrong with you?

You are waving hands, the answer is not in section 1201.

I have no idea how to prove either opinion, and I do not mind to stand corrected, there is nothing stupid about being wrong, but being an ass, that's just not cool... so, go away if you are happy with your current opinion, you are the one who is trolling. Although, I like your temper, I welcome you to stay so I can prove you wrong and make you blush like a little girl.

[Osirus23]

Whats up with this site lately? Where are these people coming from?

[CheffoJeffo]

It is NOT legal to operate or resell an illegal board, no matter where/how you obtained it.

It IS legal if it is taxed by the government, free to import and available in retail stores

Where the hell do you get this from ?

I have had this discussion, live and face-to-face with actual, real, IP lawyers.

If you want to split the hair on legal vs infringing, then fine, but, unless you actually are a lawyer, stop pretending to be one.

Show me the precedent or shut the ---fudgesicle--- up.

[CheffoJeffo]

Are those DVDs available in retail stores and can you get an invoice for it?

Bought one today in a retail store and got a receipt for it.

 

[M.Lanza]

I Think this might be related.

http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=110413

[SavannahLion]

I'll come out and say it since no one else seems to. Driver-Man, you are immensely stupid.

You are drawing conclusions about the legality of a particular item based on the actions/laws in completely unrelated areas. Worse, you have assumptions about people at customs, the actions of the seller and a set of uninformed notions about tax and import laws.  If you had bothered to read the links I gave you, the answer is in Section 1201.

I have cited several sources, more than once, showing the folly of your flawed logic and reasoning. Where are your cited sources that support your argument?

At this point I'm inclined to believe that you're simply trolling. Obviously misleading statements such as your Coca-Cola comment, your refusal to read any of the citations given, as well as your refusal to actually give any citations supporting your view point would lead me to no other conclusion.

Why insults, what is wrong with you?

You are waving hands, the answer is not in section 1201.

You're full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. How about citing a source for a change? Or better yet, explaining why section 1201 is not the answer as you put it?

I have no idea how to prove either opinion

Oh that's right, you're incapable of using Google. 

, and I do not mind to stand corrected, there is nothing stupid about being wrong, but being an ass, that's just not cool... so, go away if you are happy with your current opinion, you are the one who is trolling. Although, I like your temper, I welcome you to stay so I can prove you wrong and make you blush like a little girl.

Hey, when you create the forum, then you can "invite me to stay." Otherwise, it looks like I'm the one proving you wrong, doing a pretty decent job of it as well. Oh, and double check that avatar.

[Driver-Man]

Show me the precedent or sh....

If it was not "illegal" than there would not be any, no one would even be pressing any charges in such cases, so that's something you might try to show me.

Would you believe me that your PC, your Macintosh, your Windows, or Linux even, your graphic card probably best example... there are hundreds of violated copyrights, in both hardware and software. And regardless of whether ATI might tomorrow sue Nvidia for billion dollars and win over copyright infringement, you as a consumer will not be held liable and will still be able to sell offending piece of hardware, without anyone giving ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- what went between Nvidia and ATI in the meantime, and no matter how many copyrights were violated there the item itself would not be dimmed illegal to buy, poses or re-sell. No?

How about citing a source for a change? Or better yet, explaining why section 1201 is not the answer as you put it?

I am not trying to dispute those laws, only finding a hole where they do not apply in given circumstances. -- When the package with my PCB arrived, it contained notice from the customs office. It said they opened the box and inspected the item, and they obviously found it to be perfectly legal since they forwarded all that to me. Should I call them back and say how they were immensely stupid? Does it not strike you as strange that would be the only item in the world that is illegal, yet taxed and available in stores?

[Haze]

It's still an illegal product, It's illegal to resell or operate.  Ignorance is no defence.  Being taxed by the government has nothing to do with it, how were they meant to know the exact legal status of the item, that's your responsibility, just as it is when buying any other product.

At least we are down to last question/argument, thank you everyone!

Ok, again we know all the opinions, so I will not repeat any more of mine, the question now is how do we settle this? Shall we ask someone? Maybe have a look in some dictionary, Wikipedia? What legislation could possibly hold the definite answer to this question. How do we prove this either way?

It's common sense,which you appear to be lacking.  Selling an illegal product is illegal.  A product which infringes on copyrights IS ILLEGAL.  There exists no mechanism whereby an illegal product magically becomes legal because somebody sold it to you.

If I sell and invoice you for a 'luxury powdered substance' and pay the government what they're due do think think the cops are going to be any more lenient on you when they find you reselling it on the street corner?

That is not it. You are counterfeiting invoice there too. There is a difference between infringing copyright and being illegal. There is a list which probably can be found at the customs office web site, the list of every single item category, from toothpick to airplane, including arcade PCBs, cabinets and arcade parts, together with liquor, tobacco, heroin... it defines legality, tax rate, fines, penalties, and such... but, infringing copyright, no one can be expected to know about it. -- And, I'm not making any justification or moral whatever, just figuring out the facts... I thought we are all on the same side here, I still have no idea why some people seem to not like what I say.

There is no difference.  Infringing on copyrights is illegal.  I'm only counterfeiting an invoice in that I'm not supplying the full details, just as your invoice for an illegal PCB isn't really supplying full details and above board.

'Should be free' is your opinion, but unless the companies release them for free, or the copyrights expire, they can't be considered free.  If you want to do something about that you'll have to somehow get all copyrights shortened, or conditionally made to expire once a product has 'no commercial value'.  Until that happens (which it won't) it's still a legal minefield.  Most of the boards you're talking about are running unlicensed copies of MAME anyway, so it would still be illegal even then.  Note, these things also run Pacman / Ms Pacman / Galaga and so are in DIRECT competition with the new rereleases Namco are pushing out, that would be your biggest threat.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/24691/InDepth_Exploring_Ultracades_Alleged_Counterfeit_Arcade_Game_Racket.php

is still the latest update on Ultracade / Foley afaik.

I believe there was a previous case where they were forced to stop using unlicensed Namco property too, it's been mentioned a few times.

So, Ultracade bribed government with $100,000 and went back to continue as usual. No actual copyright owner pressed charges? So, who pressed charges - gamasutra? What in the world were they trying to do? Game companies and actual copyright holders never complained to authorities about Ultracade, it was all gamasutra playing some sort of "arcade police", but at the end game companies stopped to respond to gamasutra, they seem to become bothered of gamasutra pulling public statements from them, as if companies were not really sure to actually have proper copyrights, or were utterly uninterested in the case, none of which makes sense, but that's what happened, right?

Uh, did you read the article?  Ultracade ended up withdrawing a whole range of their games, Foley ended up in court?  It's not Gamasutra vs. Ultracade / Foley, they were just presenting the facts and doing some research of their own.  I think the fact that it came down to that tells you that something wrong was being done by somebody?

You seem determined to prove here that you can legally sell / operate cabinets with xx-in-1 multi-game boards.  You can't.  One call to Namco's legal department, pointing them at your website / auction, and showing that said multi-game contained an illegal copy of Pacman, MsPacman and Galaga, which they themselves are trying to sell to arcades as part of their 20th / 25th Anniversary packs and you would be hearing from their lawyers.  I'd love to hear your defence against them.  "Sorry, I don't care if you own the rights to those games, and I know this is an unauthorized PCB imported from HK, but it's ok, I can sell it because I paid for it and the government took a cut, here is my invoice"   Do you think the courts, or Namco would seriously care for your argument?  Do Namco care that the government took money from the sale of an illegal copy of their game?  Your defence would be laughed out of court.

(and for that matter, none of this grants you the right to use the code that *I* wrote for MAME either, there is an explicit no-commercial use clause, and again, through your mythical process of an illegal product becoming legal, I am not being compensated in any way either, I'm not even a US citizen, so quite how your government taking a cut is meant to make things better for me I don't know)

[SavannahLion]

Would you believe me that your PC, your Macintosh, your Windows, or Linux even, your graphic card probably best example... there are hundreds of violated copyrights, in both hardware and software. And regardless of whether ATI might tomorrow sue Nvidia for billion dollars and win over copyright infringement, you as a consumer will not be held liable and will still be able to sell offending piece of hardware, without anyone giving ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- what went between Nvidia and ATI in the meantime, and ....

Once again, your inability to do the research shows through. nVidia/ATI, AMD/Intel  already did sue each other for more money than most of us make in a lifetime. The difference here is that this has all been settled and fees have been paid and interestingly, permission granted in some of those cases. The comparison between the business model of these company and a video game company is a poor one. The only similarity I can recall is Ms. Pac-Man. Once again, an agreement was made between the owner of the copyright and the violator of that copyright and the damages were paid for in some fashion. No such agreement exists between the copyright holder and the X in 1 boards you seem to want to find an imaginary loophole for.

no matter how many copyrights were violated there the item itself would not be dimmed illegal to buy, poses or re-sell. No?

If you do not know the story of Tengen, then you sir, cannot be deemed a video gamer.  

I am not trying to dispute those laws, only finding a hole where they do not apply in given circumstances. -- When the package with my PCB arrived, it contained notice from the customs office. It said they opened the box and inspected the item, and they obviously found it to be perfectly legal since they forwarded all that to me. Should I call them back and say how they were immensely stupid? Does it not strike you as strange that would be the only item in the world that is illegal, yet taxed and available in stores?

Once again, research would aid your argument and understanding how these laws function would go a long way in looking less like an idiot looking to make a buck. Here is a link to U.S. customs for the other people in this forum who are actually capable of doing the research.

[taylormadelv]

This argument almost seems related to old artwork and jewlery and stuff that was stolen from Jews by the Natzis in WWII. When the original owners' families are contacted and can prove the item belonged to their family, it is returned to them and it doesn't matter if that last owner paid a zillion dollars for it, it was stolen, it's still considered stolen and the ignorant last "owner" is the one that gets the short end of the stick. x in 1's are illegal no matter how many times it's been resold or how many invoices were made for its' purchase, it's just as illegal as when it was produced new. The fact that the boards "slip into" old cabs real nice-like just makes it a lot easier to ignore their illegality and perpetuates the double standard of PCB vs full blown mame.

[CheffoJeffo]

Does it not strike you as strange that would be the only item in the world that is illegal, yet taxed and available in stores?

Or like the guy who was selling marijuana seeds for years by mail order and store front, issuing receipts and paying his taxes ?

It's a good thing that paying those taxes made it legal because he would have gotten 5 years if  ... oh wait a minute ...

[Haze]

or, let's give another example.

You buy a PC, you have your invoice, it's preinstalled with Windows and Office.

The copies of Windows and Office aren't legal, they've been installed from pirate copies of the discs using cloned keys, and they're infringing on Microsoft's copyrights and licensing.

Microsoft's Genuine Advantage software recognizes this, and promptly starts disabling features of your install of Windows and nagging you to buy a genuine copy, and will eventually become deactivated.

Despite 'legally purchasing' your PC, you now can't use it properly.

Microsoft DO NOT consider your illegal copy of windows to be legal, they only offer a means to upgrade it to a legal copy in exchange for your illegal copy, they are under no obligation to do this at all, and if you look carefully at the terms you MUST submit your counterfeit windows CD.   Most systems sold like this don't even come with a CD, it's all pre-installed.  This is a *VERY* common situation***.  No high quality CD = you MUST buy another copy to be legal.  Operating the system without doing so is illegal, and Microsoft make this quite clear.  This is no different to operating a counterfeit / infringing 60-in-1 board on location.

Your invoice means _nothing_ for the legality of the product.


*** and is in fact the main target of the scheme, people who download Windows know all about the cracks and ways to bypass the systems, people who unknowingly thought they bought a legal product from a shop don't.

Q:
What happens to customers who have mistakenly purchased a counterfeit version of Windows?
A:

Microsoft advises users who learn that their copy of Windows is not genuine to take the following steps:

    Learn more about how to recognize genuine Windows at www.microsoft.com/genuine.
    Return to the reseller who provided the software to seek redress.
    If their reseller is unable to help, users can take advantage of Microsoft genuine Windows offers designed to help victims of counterfeit software. To learn about the genuine Windows offer, customers can read about it later in this FAQ.
    Users can also purchase a genuine copy of Windows from a local reseller.

Q:
What is the genuine Windows offer?
A:

The Microsoft genuine Windows offer is designed to help customers who unknowingly purchased counterfeit versions of Windows XP by offering those who qualify a complimentary copy or electronic license key for a genuine copy of Windows XP.
Q:
What are the details of the genuine Windows offer?
A:

To help customers who unknowingly purchased a counterfeit version of Windows XP, Microsoft has created two genuine Windows offers for those who qualify:

    Complimentary offer: Microsoft will make a complimentary copy of Windows XP available to customers who have been sold counterfeit Windows. Customers will be required to submit a proof of purchase, the counterfeit CD, and a counterfeit report with details of their purchase. Only high-quality counterfeit Windows will qualify for the complimentary offer.
    Electronic License Key Offer: Microsoft will offer an alternative for customers who find out via the WGA validation process that they are not running genuine Windows, but do not qualify for, or choose not to take advantage of, the complimentary offer. These customers will be able to license a Windows Genuine Advantage Kit for Windows XP directly from Microsoft for a special on-line purchase price. The Windows Genuine Advantage Kit for Windows XP will include a new 25-character Product Key and a Windows Product Key Update tool that will allow customers to convert their counterfeit copy to genuine Windows XP electronically.

[SavannahLion]

This argument almost seems related to old artwork and jewlery and stuff that was stolen from Jews by the Natzis in WWII. When the original owners' families are contacted and can prove the item belonged to their family, it is returned to them and it doesn't matter if that last owner paid a zillion dollars for it, it was stolen, it's still considered stolen and the ignorant last "owner" is the one that gets the short end of the stick.

I believe this is what has suspected to have happened to some missing paintings. They have gone into private collectors hands who make no bones about this sort of thing yet don't publicly announce they have them. The private collector in question might even be the Jewish family who the painting(s) were stolen from. My point being, Unidroit Convention limits claims on stolen cultural artifacts to fifty years. Would a painting stolen from a Jew by the Nazi's fall under that? If so, then the paintings and other works of art "permanently" disappearing may be stolen by the very families they were stolen from because they were unable to find proof of ownership.

[Malenko]

Haze, hes either not going to read that or not understand it. Its like talking to genesim or a wall.

[CheffoJeffo]

Its like talking to genesim or a wall.

I had the same thought.

[Driver-Man]

"Sorry, I don't care if you own the rights to those games, and I know this is an unauthorized PCB imported from HK, but it's ok, I can sell it because I paid for it and the government took a cut, here is my invoice"   Do you think the courts, or Namco would seriously care for your argument?

Yes, I'm saying the "consumer" is not liable, but victim. Namco should go after the factory or perhaps importer/distributor to find out if they were aware of copyright breach. I'm also saying that even importer and local distributor would not be liable if they can prove they were not aware of any copyright infringement. -- All you have to do is point out a case, or few, where consumer or re-seller was brought to court and found guilty, or at least brought to court and charged.

Once again, your inability to do the research shows through. nVidia/ATI, AMD/Intel  already did sue each other for more money than most of us make in a lifetime. The difference here is that this has all been settled and fees have been paid and interestingly, permission granted in some of those cases. The comparison between the business model of these company and a video game company is a poor one.

...
Once again, research would aid your argument and understanding how these laws function would go a long way in looking less like an idiot looking to make a buck. Here is a link to U.S. customs for the other people in this forum who are actually capable of doing the research.

I finally see why are you so angry, you are jealous because you think I'm making money out of this, somehow.

I already told you I PAID for my PCBs, I did not make them, nor did I sell them. I also did not violate any copyrights, I'm the VICTIM, I would not know it was illegal if it was not for you. CUSTOMS OFFICE DECLARED IT LEGAL, so whom should I believe? If I wanted to make money that is the last thing I would be dealing with. I would rather take on empty COMs and re-sell them for mobile/embedded market. That would sell off thousands times faster. You are being pathetic, you hate me for all the wrong reasons.

Did you actually say anything there? You are not making any arguments really, you're still waving hands and saying all is written "somewhere else" and all is so clear yet you can not articulate any actual reasoning or interpretation here. It's all explained on the Google website, right? -- So, you agree nVidia, ATI/AMD, Intel already did sue each other, and therefore these products everyone has/had were illegal at some point in time... and it was illegal to poses, buy and sell offending hardware. Yes?
=====================


http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-rambus-patent-lawsuit-ram,9502.html
- "Nvidia Found Guilty of Infringing Rambus Patents - In summer 2008, Rambus claimed that "a number of Nvidia products" with memory controllers for SDR, DDR, DDR2, DDR3, GDDR, and GDDR3 SDRAM infringe upon 17 Rambus patents, leading to the expected lawsuit.

Last Friday, the U.S. International Trade Commission ruled that Nvidia violated three of five patents held by Rambus which could lead to a possible U.S. ban on the import of some Nvidia products."


So anyone who has, buys or sells this offending hardware is breaking the law and can be held accountable for trafficking or possession of illegal item? Or maybe, the government needs to issue a BAN on the particular item first?

If you do not know the story of Tengen, then you sir, cannot be deemed a video gamer.

You are failing to make an argument. All you have to do is point out a case, or few, where consumer or re-seller was brought to court and found guilty, or at least brought to court and charged.

[CheffoJeffo]

Is this entire argument as simple as Driver-Man thinking that only criminal law (e.g. where charges would be laid) is the only determination of legality ? 

[Driver-Man]

I'm making it really simple for you here - all you have to do is point out a case, or few, where consumer or re-seller was brought to court and found guilty, or at least brought to court and charged.

[CheffoJeffo]

So, you require CRIMINAL charges as evidence ?

[Driver-Man]

So, you require CRIMINAL charges as evidence ?

I do think that falls under "criminal law", but I do not see what does that matter. I just want to know about facts, any court case that is related to this sure is argument. That is how you proved to me that manufacturing of these X-in-1 is illegal in US, and sometimes even prosecuted.

Is there anything specific you would like me to present? I can not think of any definite proof, or place to find one, but perhaps you can give me an idea what kind of argument will convince you to agree with me?

[Haze]

I'm making it really simple for you here - all you have to do is point out a case, or few, where consumer or re-seller was brought to court and found guilty, or at least brought to court and charged.

The Microsoft stuff I gave you should be all you need.

Microsoft take DIRECT action against their 'customers' by DISABLING the illegal product.  Yes, they are the victim, and yes, in certain circumstances Microsoft will exchange the illegal product for a legal one.  The fact that the customer is the victim does not change the legal status of the item.  Microsoft could, if they choose, offer no exchange program, and drag all these people through the legal system, but have chosen a more customer-friendly approach.  (and let the RIAA take the '90 year old disabled grandma dragged into court' headlines)

You bought some PCBs which are illegal, you got screwed, tough s**t.  Namco don't offer any similar process to replace your product with a legal one (and in this case, it would come down to far more than Namco) so you're stuck with an Illegal one.  Namco have no direct way of disabling these xx-in-1 boards, but if they could, they probably would.

I've given you a real-world example of where buying a product, and having an invoice for it does not make it any more legal, and in the same case, a situation where the actual rights holder of the illegal software can disable the end user's illegal copy (which by your logic, shouldn't be possible, because the software became legal the second you bought it in a store, with the PC and invoice)

[Malenko]

I already told you I PAID for my PCBs, I did not make them, nor did I sell them. I also did not violate any copyrights, I'm the VICTIM, I would not know it was illegal if it was not for you.

Lets try another approach.  Go to the website of where you bought the PCB from.  Does it acknowledge the copyrights and declare the board licensed and say they are used with permission?  Just for a comparison, here is the webpage to buy Marvel VS Capcom 2 for xbox live:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/m/marvelvscapcom2xboxlivearcade/

see whats at the bottom? See how it says "USED WITH PERMISSION" ? That makes them liable if its not.  As for you not knowing, have you ever been pulled over for speeding and told the cop "I didnt know the speed limit was only 40?" Did it work? Didn't think so, you still have to pay the fine.

[wweumina]

Whats up with this site lately? Where are these people coming from?

+1

[Driver-Man]

You buy a PC, you have your invoice, it's preinstalled with Windows and Office.

The copies of Windows and Office aren't legal, they've been installed from pirate copies of the discs using cloned keys, and they're infringing on Microsoft's copyrights and licensing.

Despite 'legally purchasing' your PC, you now can't use it properly.

Are you saying some retail stores are selling PCs with illegal copy of Windows and giving tax invoice for it? In that case the buyer is entitled to recover damages from the store that sold it. Again buyer is not liable to be prosecuted or charged with anything, if such store exists at all. There are no damages you caused and can be responsible to recover, unless you are the one who is installing illegal copies. Also, if you bought them with intention to re-sell and knew about the violation, then you could be charged as well, but again, I want to know about actual court cases, MS can say whatever they want, that still doesn't mean it can really stand in court.

I've given you a real-world example of where buying a product...

Ok, we are discussing it now, though it would be better if we could stick with arcades, games and emulators.

I also gave you real-world examples...

1.) I have written statement from the custom office that they inspected the item. I do not remember the wording but I believe it was in fact a declaration that item is legal. That's what they were inspecting it for.

What's your response to this?


2.) U.S. International Trade Commission ruled that Nvidia violated three of five patents held by Rambus which could lead to a possible U.S. ban on the import of some Nvidia products. -- So, anyone who has, buys or sells this offending hardware is breaking the law and can be held accountable for trafficking or possession of illegal item? Or maybe, the government needs to issue a BAN on the particular item first? YES/NO

What say you, please?

[CheffoJeffo]

You know what, Driver-Man ... just put your machine on route. Chances are you won't have a problem unless somebody decides to report you.

I see these boards on route all the time, know they are neither legal nor licensed and have never bothered to report one.

Your lack of legal understanding and arcade acumen notwithstanding, I wouldn't expect anybody to turn you in.

FWIW, the message that you got from Customs, upon which you seem to base your entire argument (yet conveniently misplaced) most likely just said that they inspected your package, found it not to contradict the declaration and found no reason to reject it. They would be hard-pressed to say more since Customs and Excise is a federal agency and is not empowered, nor informed, to enforce laws which may well be set at the local level.

At the very least, your boards are all MAME-based and in violation of the MAME license and you have now been informed of that by one of the MAMEDevs (you know, one of the guys whose rights you want to violate). And, obviously, you have no license for the ROMS and have been informed of that by people who are far more aware of all of these products and their licensing than you are.

You can no longer claim ignorance as a defence, although it seems to be in plentiful supply around you.

 

[CheffoJeffo]

1.) I have written statement from the custom office that they inspected the item. I do not remember the wording but I believe it was in fact a declaration that item is legal. That's what they were inspecting it for.

What's your response to this?

You need to post a copy of declaration before asking us to render judgement. Duh!

I'll bet I have bought more of these boards than you have and have NEVER received any declaration that the product was legal or authorized for use.

[CheffoJeffo]

But hey, there was once real cocaine in Coca-Cola, and that was legal for a while, or so they say.

But cocaine wasn't illegal then, was it ? It was actually commonly marketed, as was heroin.

 

[SavannahLion]

Once again, your inability to do the research shows through. nVidia/ATI, AMD/Intel  already did sue each other for more money than most of us make in a lifetime. The difference here is that this has all been settled and fees have been paid and interestingly, permission granted in some of those cases. The comparison between the business model of these company and a video game company is a poor one.

...
Once again, research would aid your argument and understanding how these laws function would go a long way in looking less like an idiot looking to make a buck. Here is a link to U.S. customs for the other people in this forum who are actually capable of doing the research.

I finally see why are you so angry, you are jealous because you think I'm making money out of this, somehow.

Hardly angry, annoyed is more like it. Annoyed at your inability to grasp basic concepts and your inability to cite sources (which you want everyone else but you to do. However, above all is your inability to Search for answers.

I already told you I PAID for my PCBs, I did not make them, nor did I sell them. I also did not violate any copyrights, I'm the VICTIM,

As any person in any country other than the U.S. claiming to be an innocent victim does not fly. The U.S. has this weird mentality about what it means to be a victim. You are not a victim. You are just trying to justify something that should have been obvious from the get go.

I would not know it was illegal if it was not for you. CUSTOMS OFFICE DECLARED IT LEGAL, so whom should I believe? If I wanted to make money that is the last thing I would be dealing with. I would rather take on empty COMs and re-sell them for mobile/embedded market. That would sell off thousands times faster. You are being pathetic, you hate me for all the wrong reasons.

I posted the link to customs that explains how copyrights are handled you ass. Saying that a Customs official let something into this country, therfor making it legal, is an argument that absolutely does not hold water. It's asinine. It's pathetic. It's an epic FAIL. Even a minimal amount of research into how U.S. Customs works would tell you otherwise. ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, an hour long documentary on the History Channel would enlighten anyone beyond what you think you know about customs. Since your Search-Fu is clearly broken, go to cbp.gov and start your research there. Read the links I give you for a change instead of arguing the wrong side of a point.

Did you actually say anything there? You are not making any arguments really, you're still waving hands and saying all is written "somewhere else" and all is so clear yet you can not articulate any actual reasoning or interpretation here. It's all explained on the Google website, right? -- So, you agree nVidia, ATI/AMD, Intel already did sue each other, and therefore these products everyone has/had were illegal at some point in time... and it was illegal to poses, buy and sell offending hardware. Yes?

I articulated it well enough, I also presented links. You however are the one waving your hands trying to justify something. You ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up, accept it. You purchased the X-in-1 board, you are the one that should have known better. Then you come onto a board to somehow justify your purchase?

If you do not know the story of Tengen, then you sir, cannot be deemed a video gamer.

You are failing to make an argument. All you have to do is point out a case, or few, where consumer or re-seller was brought to court and found guilty, or at least brought to court and charged.

The immense stupidity of this statement is enough. Your ineptitude for basic search engine utilization is pretty clear at this point. I've asked you more than once for your citations. Of which I have seen none.

But hey, there was once real cocaine in Coca-Cola, and that was legal for a while, or so they say.

But cocaine wasn't illegal then, was it ? It was actually commonly marketed, as was heroin.

 

In 1885. It was taxed but restricted by 1915 (or thereabouts) and finally a controlled substance by 19 er... 70?

How do I know this? Oh right, I did research. Pretty cool concept.

FWIW, the message that you got from Customs, upon which you seem to base your entire argument (yet conveniently misplaced) most likely just said that they inspected your package, found it not to contradict the declaration and found no reason to reject it. They would be hard-pressed to say more since Customs and Excise is a federal agency and is not empowered, nor informed, to enforce laws which may well be set at the local level.

If X is registered at the Copyright office then the owner can register with Customs for a period of five years for a fee. This registration with Customs is seperate but related from the Copyright office, eg you cannot register a copyrighted product with Customs until it's actually Copyrighted. (the meaning of the prior statement should be painfully obvious) I can't conceive of a valid situation where registering with CBP before the Copyright office might arise though. There is no question that CBP has nothing to do with local laws, it's a point of contention with the Southern border states. Or it's more of the other way around... however those Southern states want to argue it.

[Haze]

You buy a PC, you have your invoice, it's preinstalled with Windows and Office.

The copies of Windows and Office aren't legal, they've been installed from pirate copies of the discs using cloned keys, and they're infringing on Microsoft's copyrights and licensing.

Despite 'legally purchasing' your PC, you now can't use it properly.

Are you saying some retail stores are selling PCs with illegal copy of Windows and giving tax invoice for it? In that case the buyer is entitled to recover damages from the store that sold it. Again buyer is not liable to be prosecuted or charged with anything, if such store exists at all. There are no damages you caused and can be responsible to recover, unless you are the one who is installing illegal copies. Also, if you bought them with intention to re-sell and knew about the violation, then you could be charged as well, but again, I want to know about actual court cases, MS can say whatever they want, that still doesn't mean it can really stand in court.

Yes, some retail stores do this.  This is why Microsoft introduced the Genuine Advantage program in the first place.

It's very clear that you have no right to use this software you illegally purchased, and no right to resell it.

This is the same as your situation.  I don't believe Microsoft have lost any cases relating to WGA to date.

I've given you a real-world example of where buying a product...

Ok, we are discussing it now, though it would be better if we could stick with arcades, games and emulators.

I also gave you real-world examples...

1.) I have written statement from the custom office that they inspected the item. I do not remember the wording but I believe it was in fact a declaration that item is legal. That's what they were inspecting it for.

What's your response to this?

Ask Namco, or one of the other companies whose copyrights you happen to be infringing on, hell, ask me, you're infringing on MAME copyrights.  The customs office were mistaken or misled if they made any claim that the product was legal.  It isn't.  As the copyright holder of some of the code you're using, I'm telling you it isn't, and anybody associated with the MAME project would be within their rights to C&D your whole operation.

If you feel that you are a victim, please take it up with whoever sold you the PCBs, and customs for misleading you into thinking they were legal.  Just like with the Microsoft case, that should be your first line of action, getting a refund for your illegal product.  Failing that you should contact all the companies concerned and attempt to negotiate a licensing deal with them.  I can tell you for a fact that you won't be able to, therefore your the product you have purchased remains illegal and cannot be resold.

Coming here and insisting your products are legal because you're a victim makes no sense at all.

2.) U.S. International Trade Commission ruled that Nvidia violated three of five patents held by Rambus which could lead to a possible U.S. ban on the import of some Nvidia products. -- So, anyone who has, buys or sells this offending hardware is breaking the law and can be held accountable for trafficking or possession of illegal item? Or maybe, the government needs to issue a BAN on the particular item first? YES/NO

What say you, please?

I believe that would be a fair thing to assume, however, further details of any settlement between Rambus and Nvidia could change that and a licensing deal, retroactively covering the products could be (and given that they needed the technology moving forward, probably was) established, any damages awarded (to Rambus, the owner of the patents / technology being infringed upon) could also cover products already on the market if it wasn't.  Patent rulings are not as clear cut as copyright infringement.  99% of these PC cases you keep bringing up involve complex licensing deals.  Your xx-in-1 PCBs are neither licensed from the manufacturers, or MAME, nor has there been any kind of retroactive settlement that compensates all those who have had their copyrights infringed by this illegal product.  The nVidia Rambus case was between two parties and could easily be resolved.  The xx-in-1 boards involve copyright infringement of the IP of a whole multitude of companies, there is practically no hope of it ever being resolved.  Even if Namco won a case against them, and their use and were compensated you'd still have to deal with Konami and all the others.

It's completely different.

[RayB]

You know, it's an interesting point Driver-Man eventually got to (but dude, what took you so long to explain it logically?!?!).

What he's saying could be comparable to Tengen Tetris for the NES. They ended up making/selling a game they did not have the license for. So then they were forced to stop selling it, and I presume recall unsold stock [which was presumably destroyed].

So what then of the sold Tengen Tetris in customers' hands? I have never heard of Tengen Tetris being referred to as counterfeit, bootleg or illegal. I've only ever heard of it referred to as rare, expensive and highly collectible.

I've also never heard of public recalls due to IP disputes. Usually the end result of an IP dispute is Company X paying damages to Company Y (and then either stopping sale of the item, or paying license fees to continue).

It IS an interesting argument!


PS: Driver-Man, one thing I have to mention about the customs argument: The companies that own a particular IP must specifically request from customs that they look for and seize specific items. Customs does not make these determinations themselves, especially when we're talking about Intellectual Property. It would be too costly and impossible for an agent to know everything about every item. They have higher priorities like looking for weapons, drugs, and similar restricted items. These old game boards are just too small a "problem" to matter enough to the companies whose IP is being infringed on.

[Haze]

You know, it's an interesting point Driver-Man eventually got to (but dude, what took you so long to explain it logically?!?!).

What he's saying could be comparable to Tengen Tetris for the NES. They ended up making/selling a game they did not have the license for. So then they were forced to stop selling it, and I presume recall unsold stock [which was presumably destroyed].

So what then of the sold Tengen Tetris in customers' hands? I have never heard of Tengen Tetris being referred to as counterfeit, bootleg or illegal. I've only ever heard of it referred to as rare, expensive and highly collectible.

It's become highly collectable *because* it's counterfeit / bootleg and most were destroyed.  While Nintendo are unlikely to go after you for it (it's petty cash to them these days) there is no reason to think that the ban on sales doesn't hold true today (unless the settlement agreed covered items which had already been sold, and hence *Nintendo*, the rights holder, was paid for these)

I've also never heard of public recalls due to IP disputes. Usually the end result of an IP dispute is Company X paying damages to Company Y (and then either stopping sale of the item, or paying license fees to continue).

It IS an interesting argument!


PS: Driver-Man, one thing I have to mention about the customs argument: The companies that own a particular IP must specifically request from customs that they look for and seize specific items. Customs does not make these determinations themselves, especially when we're talking about Intellectual Property. It would be too costly and impossible for an agent to know everything about every item. They have higher priorities like looking for weapons, drugs, and similar restricted items. These old game boards are just too small a "problem" to matter enough to the companies whose IP is being infringed on.

Public recalls would basically be impossible.  Note that for arcade gambling games this is pretty much what happened tho, if you consider the arcade operators in this case to be the public (who were sold the PCBs) they were forced to either return them for updates to make the software legal, or destroy them.  In some cases they had no return option, only the destroy option.  Due to regulation changes you can't legally operate many of them anymore, even if you have an original invoice from the time at which they were sold, and could, at one point operate them legally.  Doesn't matter if you're the arcade op, or you picked one up yourself, you can't operate it, it's an illegal item, the software from that PCB should have been destroyed (which is why you often find bare / stripped gambling PCBs)

Similar applies when adult entertainment laws are changed, material which may have been legal at one point becomes illegal, you're meant to destroy it.  Attempting to resell it could get you into all kinds of trouble, and a mark against your person that could ruin your entire career.

No, it's not fair, and yes, again, you become the victim, but tough.

[lilshawn]

CUSTOMS OFFICE DECLARED IT LEGAL

i wouldn't say they deemed it legal, if you opened up a box and found a bunch of electronic components would you know if they where photocopier parts or components to a nuclear bomb?

the machine you ordered, by itself is not illegal. but without powering it up and looking at the code contained therin, which IS being sold illegally. the customs inspector cannot know this by simply looking at the pcb contained inside the box. the fact that it slipped through in the first place would be about as good as your statement would be to hold up if you ended up in court over it.

now, if there was a paper on the top of the pcb that said "this pcb contains 200 copyrighted videogames" i don't think you would have recieved it, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

What he's saying could be comparable to Tengen Tetris for the NES. They ended up making/selling a game they did not have the license for. So then they were forced to stop selling it, and I presume recall unsold stock [which was presumably destroyed].

So what then of the sold Tengen Tetris in customers' hands? I have never heard of Tengen Tetris being referred to as counterfeit, bootleg or illegal. I've only ever heard of it referred to as rare, expensive and highly collectible.

I've also never heard of public recalls due to IP disputes. Usually the end result of an IP dispute is Company X paying damages to Company Y (and then either stopping sale of the item, or paying license fees to continue).

i would imagine that Tengen would have had to pay for those carts that "got away" and where sold. therefore while still highly rare and collectible, have had the reparations paid for their production and subsequent sale by tengen.

[RayB]

i would imagine that Tengen would have had to pay for those carts that "got away" and where sold. therefore while still highly rare and collectible, have had the reparations paid for their production and subsequent sale by tengen.

Do you not see the complexity of the issue in your answer there? If the plaintiff company has had reparations for the "damages", then is any cartridge still out there "illegal"? Should a collector who comes into possession of Tengen Tetris be stripped of it as if it were "stolen goods? Should that game be confiscated at border crossings?

DriverMan presented an interesting paradigm here (if you can disregard the naive arguments he wrapped it in). I know the likely answer is to err on the side of caution; ie: they contain infringing content, but when you buy a board, you are not copying the IP. Someone else is guilty of that action. AFAIK there's no "possessing" laws regarding infringing IP, it's always in regards to the act of copying, downloading, etc. It is not the same as stolen goods. The more I think about it from this point of view, the greyer it seems, and I or anyone else here would be foolish to try and pick an answer with any certainty.

Haze: Equating copyrighted materials to Porn or gambling laws is a bit of a stretch.

[Haze]

Haze: Equating copyrighted materials to Porn or gambling laws is a bit of a stretch.

Well, my point was just because you thought you legally owned something, doesn't mean you actually do, and doesn't mean you can resell it, even if when you bought it you thought it was all above board (or in some cases, even WAS all above board at the time)

In other words, it just further shows that the argument of the OP here is nonsense.

[Haze]

DriverMan presented an interesting paradigm here (if you can disregard the naive arguments he wrapped it in). I know the likely answer is to err on the side of caution; ie: they contain infringing content, but when you buy a board, you are not copying the IP. Someone else is guilty of that action. AFAIK there's no "possessing" laws regarding infringing IP, it's always in regards to the act of copying, downloading, etc. It is not the same as stolen goods. The more I think about it from this point of view, the greyer it seems, and I or anyone else here would be foolish to try and pick an answer with any certainty.

Sorry, I don't think there is any grey area as far as selling / operating these things is concerned.

If it were legal to sell them 'as long as you don't use them' then you'd see hundreds of websites selling pirated XBOX360, PS3 etc. games under the condition that you don't actually ever use them.  These things are illegal products, you can't sell them as products, nor as a service (ie, an arcade)

Again, see the Microsoft case.  If it were legal to possess and use the software which is infringing on their IP then they would have no right at all to disable it and force you to buy a legal version to continue using it.  People would be suing Microsoft and winning, and companies could get away with buying hundreds of dodgy copies, and never pay a thing to Microsoft because they weren't doing the copying merely possessing and using the software.  It doesn't make sense, and there are heavy fines in place for this kind of behavior.

It's easier to target corporations than individuals, but if you're caught selling this stuff, or operating it on location then don't expect Namco etc. to take it lightly, because as I said, you're competing directly against them in their market using counterfeit versions of their products.

[RayB]

You're probably right, but the MS example is a poor one. They rely on their "End User License Agreement" to set the terms. See what I mean? It's greyer than we think when it comes to the actual end-user. Otherwise EULAs would not be necessary.

Anyways, I'm gonna opt out of this thread before I start to sound foolish.

[Haze]

You're probably right, but the MS example is a poor one. They rely on their "End User License Agreement" to set the terms. See what I mean? It's greyer than we think when it comes to the actual end-user. Otherwise EULAs would not be necessary.

Anyways, I'm gonna opt out of this thread before I start to sound foolish.

At the end of the day it's not all that different tho, the EULA, the Mame license, they all state terms and conditions of use and sale.  Failing that it simply comes down to copyright, and it's a clear-cut infringement.

[Driver-Man]

So, you agree nVidia, ATI/AMD, Intel already did sue each other, and therefore these products everyone has/had were illegal at some point in time... and it was illegal to poses, buy and sell offending hardware. Yes?

I articulated it well enough, I also presented links. You however are the one waving your hands trying to justify something. You ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up, accept it. You purchased the X-in-1 board, you are the one that should have known better. Then you come onto a board to somehow justify your purchase?

My angry friend, can you not answer these question:

Q1) You agree nVidia, ATI/AMD, Intel already did sue each other, and therefore these products everyone has/had were illegal at some point in time... and it is/was illegal to possess, buy and sell this hardware? YES/NO


Q2.) U.S. International Trade Commission ruled that Nvidia violated three of five patents held by Rambus which could lead to a possible U.S. ban on the import of some Nvidia products. -- So, anyone who has, buys or sells this offending hardware is breaking the law and can be held accountable for trafficking or possession of illegal item? Or maybe, the government needs to issue a BAN on the particular item first? YES/NO

Tax laws don't even address that (I could be wrong and I would take great delight if someone proves otherwise).  I gave you the relevant copyright info. It's not my fault you're too lazy to Google for it.

As for liability on the buyer/seller/re-seller. Here, the answer is, it depends. An example would be Lik-Sang getting nailed to the wall for various copyright and patent infringements.

You went from being uncertain and "I could be wrong" to calling me stupid in a matter of couple posts. You silly human, when did you have that revelation, what convinced you, what possessed you? Anyway, does that liability *depend* or not? What does it depend on?

Can you make your mind, what say you?

Yes, some retail stores do this.  This is why Microsoft introduced the Genuine Advantage program in the first place.

I don't think so.

But again, whoever bought that is not breaking any laws, nor is liable to recover any damages.

So, you have no singe court case to support your opinion, why so certain then?

I believe that would be a fair thing to assume, however, further details of any settlement between Rambus and Nvidia could change that and a licensing deal, retroactively covering the products could be (and given that they needed the technology moving forward, probably was) established, any damages awarded (to Rambus, the owner of the patents / technology being infringed upon) could also cover products already on the market if it wasn't.  Patent rulings are not as clear cut as copyright infringement.  99% of these PC cases you keep bringing up involve complex licensing deals.  Your xx-in-1 PCBs are neither licensed from the manufacturers, or MAME, nor has there been any kind of retroactive settlement that compensates all those who have had their copyrights infringed by this illegal product.  The nVidia Rambus case was between two parties and could easily be resolved.  The xx-in-1 boards involve copyright infringement of the IP of a whole multitude of companies, there is practically no hope of it ever being resolved.  Even if Namco won a case against them, and their use and were compensated you'd still have to deal with Konami and all the others.

You did not answer the question, please...

U.S. International Trade Commission ruled that Nvidia violated three of five patents held by Rambus which could lead to a possible U.S. ban on the import of some Nvidia products. -- So, anyone who has, buys or sells this offending hardware is breaking the law and can be held accountable for trafficking or possession of illegal item? Or maybe, the government needs to issue a BAN on the particular item first? YES/NO