A word about LEDBlinky…

[arzoo]

After much deliberation I have decided to move LEDBlinky to a Trial Software / Shareware distribution model. The core software remains fully functional but the trial version will display an audio/visual splash screen when first starting.

LEDBlinky is unusual in that the application is useless without first purchasing LED Controller Hardware. And to some extent, the hardware is less useful without the software. I’m not saying that LEDBlinky is the only software option available for use with the GroovyGameGear or Ultimarc hardware, but for better or worse, it has become very popular. So in reality, the LEDBlinky software may be helping to sell the LED hardware. And for the most part I’ve been fine with this arrangement; after all, the relationship between my software and the hardware has been an evolutionary tale.

Which brings us to 2010; recently I’ve been contacted by three different hardware vendors asking if I would add support to LEDBlinky for their future products. This is not a trivial undertaking and will require considerable development time and future support. I considered a number of options and as I said above, after much deliberation, decided that the shareware model was the best solution.

That’s my story.

Thanks,
arzoo

Oh, and for those of you who have donated to LEDBlinky in the past, I’ll send you each a registered version of the app.

[Ginsu Victim]

I'm sure it's not a decision you came to lightly, so I wish you the best of luck on this new direction. LEDBlinky is an excellent piece of software and maybe this will be an incentive to make it even better.

[Beretta]

never used LED blinky does it support using the parallel port?
all the examples of led blinky being used that i've come across is for ledwiz.

[Hoopz]

I think based on the work that you put into this, that it's the best decision for you.  I hope everyone in this community will support you for it.   

[southpaw13]

Heck, I will buy it!  Just the same as a donation....

[arzoo]

Thanks guys - I appreciate the support.

never used LED blinky does it support using the parallel port?
all the examples of led blinky being used that i've come across is for ledwiz.

Currently supports the LEDWiz, PacDrive, and UHID - all USB devices.

[Bender]

I'm sure it's not a decision you came to lightly, so I wish you the best of luck on this new direction. LEDBlinky is an excellent piece of software

+1

This one of my favorite pieces of software on my cab

Lights up the just the buttons I need for each game
Runs my light animations (to music if I want)
Maps my U360s for Mame AND all the other Emus
Speaks and flashes the controls on game start so anyone playing the cab knows what controls to use

I already donated cause it is such an invaluable part of my cab
It is so worth paying for

Plus you pay for the hardware, which is essentially useless with out the software, only seems fair to pay for the software, IMHO
and Arzoo's support is second to none

I'm actually psyched about this, this means I can be pretty confident LEDBlinky will be around for the foreseeable future

[Franco B]

+1 +1

LEDBlinky is a seriously awesome piece of software and I haven't even really scratched the surface of its potential.

I know you have, and continue to put hard work into this arzoo and I don't blame you at all for going down the route you have chosen.

Thanks for all of the hard work you have done so far and here's to the future of LEDBlinky 

[wweumina]

Good luck Sir.  As a fellow software developer in another walk of life I hope you are prepared for the increased support expectations of your users when you go 'paid'. I think LEDBlinky is an almost indespensible piece of software for some applications and your support to date has been more than adequate.  There just always seem to be people that will now expect you to got above and beyond..

[nipsmg]

Nobody could fault you for this.  There's some insane unrealistic expectation sometimes when it comes to the online community that everything should be free.  Having to *gasp* pay for something is offensive to some people for some reason.

I think you should get some small amount of financial support through sales for the countless hours you've put in for free to help advance this community.  I don't use your product but have been thinking of upgrading my cabinet, and I would be happy to pay for your software if I do so. 

Good Luck!

[Vanguard]

This seems a little lame to me considering the amount of time and effort that was put into the drivers and SDK for the LEDWiz.   LEDBlinky wouldn't exist without the FREE contributions of other members.   You're essentially make money off other peoples work.   While the driver for the LEDWiz is not terribly complex,  hundreds of hours went into the debugging and devising workarounds for Nvidia USB chipset issues that made the LEDWiz flakey at best on those chipsets.

LEDBlinky is a cool product but relies on the free work that has been done by others.   Just my two cents.

[Ginsu Victim]

[arzoo]

This seems a little lame to me considering the amount of time and effort that was put into the drivers and SDK for the LEDWiz.   LEDBlinky wouldn't exist without the FREE contributions of other members.   You're essentially make money off other peoples work.   While the driver for the LEDWiz is not terribly complex,  hundreds of hours went into the debugging and devising workarounds for Nvidia USB chipset issues that made the LEDWiz flakey at best on those chipsets.

LEDBlinky is a cool product but relies on the free work that has been done by others.   Just my two cents.

The function library for the LEDWiz was created by MikeQ for GGG. Mike is no longer active on these forums and I was unable to contact him. Regardless, I believe the LEDWiz driver code is now owned by GGG and as I said above, the software and hardware are mutually beneficial to each other. The function libraries for the PacDrive, MAME Outputs, and UltraStik were created by headkaze (www.headsoft.com.au) and are distributed with his permission. Licensing for other libraries was purchased - so basically I'm in the red at this point.

[Hoopz]

Licensing for other libraries was purchased - so basically I'm in the red at this point.

That's reason enough that this community should support you.

[HaRuMaN]

I'll buy it.   

[Vanguard]

I'm not saying you're under any legal obligation.   I'm just saying that most people in the community give their software away and when you build on that and then charge for it, it seems wrong.  

In my opinion, everyone doing software should get paid.   The hardware vendors often release products that are mostly useless without the community stepping up and doing the software work (almost always with no significant compensation for the work).

Software on its own is very difficult to sell because it is so easily pirated and because there is a mentality that if MAME is free, why should I pay for any software to support MAME?

I don't really understand why everyone gets their underwear in a knot when they see someone selling a MAME cabinet on Ebay but don't see the problem with someone selling software that builds on MAME or other peoples free work.

Again, just my 2 cents.

[CheffoJeffo]

I'm just saying that most people in the community give their software away and when you build on that and then charge for it, it seems wrong.  

I agree 100% -- arzoo must stop immediately!

And I don't care that the core functionality remains in the free version!

In my opinion, everyone doing software should get paid.

Wait ... I agree with that one too ...  





In reality, it is the underlying licenses that matter, not whether anybody "wants" or "thinks it is wrong" to pay.

Hell, how many commercial products are built on freeware ? Hint: there are some doozies.

[Bender]

I'm not saying you're under any legal obligation.   I'm just saying that most people in the community give their software away and when you build on that and then charge for it, it seems wrong.  

I respect your opinion but I disagree with this point


It certainly started out as free software, and we should all be grateful it was free for so long, in fact, I had to force him to take a donation back in the day

But things evolve and circumstances change
More vendors are asking for support. Arzoo has enormous amount of time and effort in the project. It completely makes sense to me that he get compensated to add new support, functions and features to this project
I don't see anything wrong with that

Everyone that has it, still has it for free, so it's not like he is retroactively charging people
We will have to pay in the future if we want to upgrade, but that is certainly everyone's own choice

[Vanguard]

My point is that if MAME is free, people shouldn't expect to get paid for writing software for MAME.  

I do think people should get paid for writing software.  However, if you're doing it to support a community that is strongly grounded in not charging for the work, it seems wrong to try to charge.  Especially when your work relies on people who have volunteered their work freely.

If MAME ever decides to start charging (which I think they should), then the rest of the community should feel free to as well.

[Vanguard]

More vendors are asking for support.

Then the vendors should pay.

[Bender]

My point is that if MAME is free, people shouldn't expect to get paid for writing software for MAME.  

I do think people should get paid for writing software.  However, if you're doing it to support a community that is strongly grounded in not charging for the work, it seems wrong to try to charge.  Especially when your work relies on people who have volunteered their work freely.

If MAME ever decides to start charging (which I think they should), then the rest of the community should feel free to as well.

Ok, I think I see the misunderstanding here
This software is for a cab, you don't even need Mame to use it, a lot of people use it for jukeboxes
Are people building and giving cab's away free?
Do you get joysticks, monitors and buttons for free?
That's all built around the use of Mame right?

Plus there is a free version

More vendors are asking for support.

Then the vendors should pay.

Can't argue that

[Vanguard]

Hardware is a gray area.   People are getting a tangible product with real cost when they buy it.   It's hard to argue things like this should be free.   The hardware also doesn't exist solely for MAME.   It has many uses.   The perfect model would be that the hardware vendors making the money would pay software developers to support their hardware.

Frankly, trying to charge the end user is going to be difficult.   It's so easy these days to find almost any piece of software that has any nag screen or activation key disabled. You'll get a tiny minority of people who will actually pay.

[CheffoJeffo]

I've got to +1 Bender on this.

While many/most folks may think that this place is about MAME and that is all that folks here are concerned about, that isn't necessarily so. I don't use LEDBlinky and don't expect that I ever will.

If, however, it adds value to a project that I have, then I have no problem paying for it, even if the project itself is based on free software (or even software that I have already paid for) and the illegal use of somebody else's IP.

Vanguard's logic is the same logic that has been used to justify the pirating of D2K ("based on somebody else's work, which I already pirate!"). It also flies in the face of most of the multi-game projects for "real" arcade games.

Bottom line is ... if you want people to do cool things for you, you should to be willing to pay ... even if they aren't willing to charge.

EDIT: FWIW, I think that Vanguard would agree with my closing statement because, as he says, people should get paid. We just draw the line in different places -- I draw the line at "people who do cool stuff and want to get paid" and he draws the line based on "people downstream not getting paid".

[Vanguard]

I just see it as being almost parallel with someone taking MAME, throwing some features into it, calling it PowerMAME and then asking to get paid.

But yeah, I guess I'm not really thinking about the non MAME uses.   That never really occurred to me.

I don't know the D2k story.   How is my belief that people shouldn't charge for work that builds on someones free work justifying the stealing of D2k's work?

[Vanguard]

EDIT: FWIW, I think that Vanguard would agree with my closing statement because, as he says, people should get paid. We just draw the line in different places -- I draw the line at "people who do cool stuff and want to get paid" and he draws the line based on "people downstream not getting paid".

I don't think the people downstream shouldn't get paid.   I just don't think the people downstream should be getting paid when the people upstream aren't.

[Beretta]

hmm im curious.. i dont use led blinky.. but is the new shareware license going ot be fore future upgrades..
or is the current version also going to be switched?

what i mean to say is all versions up to this point still be available for free?


as for mame charging.. no way i can't ever see that happening i think it would also go against tthe spirit behind it's founding.. it's open source so lots of people contribute to it.. i can't see mame ever going to a closed source and charging.

mame is a great piece of software, just the other day i was thinkin how amazing the accuracy is.
But then again most mature open source projects are because they have so many people contributing and improving on each others code.

[Vanguard]

The MAME devs have considered making MAME closed before.   The main reason I was given that they didn't is because they need a large community for development and testing.   They felt they would not be able to attract the interest without it being open and free. 

[saint]

While many/most folks may think that this place is about MAME and that is all that folks here are concerned about, that isn't necessarily so.

Cheffo's right

http://arcadecontrols.com/BYOAC-and-MAME.shtml

[CheffoJeffo]

Cheffo's right

If ever any quote screamed to be my custom title, that would be it !

 

[saint]

Cheffo's right

If ever any quote screamed to be my custom title, that would be it !

 

I just know this is going to cause me trouble down the line...

[Vanguard]

While many/most folks may think that this place is about MAME and that is all that folks here are concerned about, that isn't necessarily so.

Cheffo's right

http://arcadecontrols.com/BYOAC-and-MAME.shtml

I hear this website is also a photo repository for people with ball dancing ankle injuries (although claims are made about them being jujitsu injuries).  

[CheffoJeffo]

I don't know the D2k story.   How is my belief that people shouldn't charge for work that builds on someones free work justifying the stealing of D2k's work?

D2K builds on work that people already weren't paying for, so people chose to not pay for D2K and then pirated it. It remains to be seen if Jeff will bother to do anything similar for the coinop community going forward.

I think that you were making the point that that type of thing would happen, although I don't think you were condoning it.

[CheffoJeffo]

Cheffo's right

If ever any quote screamed to be my custom title, that would be it !

 

I just know this is going to cause me trouble down the line...

Screenshot taken so I can use it as my new avatar when you come to your senses!

[Beretta]

The MAME devs have considered making MAME closed before.   The main reason I was given that they didn't is because they need a large community for development and testing.   They felt they would not be able to attract the interest without it being open and free. 

they are right no one is going ot contribute to a project that making money without being paid..
further more it gets hard for someone to step in and help if they dont have a source to work off of.

if they started charging but left the source open so people (fools) could contribute then someone would just download the source and compile their own, or someone would just download the "mame" cracked edition or something.

i'd imagine if something like this ever happen someone would fork the project and the new "free" mame project would probably attract enough attention/people to supersede the now closed "official" mame.

thats whats happen in the past to project that close up shop and go commercial.

[CheffoJeffo]

FWIW and somewhat on topic, although derailed from LEDblinky, I have in the past volunteered to make a $5 donation to the MAMEDevs for every 48-in-1 or 60-in-1 board I buy. So, I am definitely not against compensating them, although I think it would be problematic.

If, however, they would like to see that money donated elsewhere (ROM dumping, artwork, BYOAC, whatever), that could be an option for folks who would like to see them compensated.

[HaRuMaN]

I have in the past volunteered to make a $5 donation to the MAMEDevs for every 48-in-1 or 60-in-1 board I buy.

Guilt money?

[Vanguard]

they are right no one is going ot contribute to a project that making money without being paid..

further more it gets hard for someone to step in and help if they dont have a source to work off of.

I think they would pay anyone working on the project.   But there in-lies the problem.   As the team grows, everyone makes less.

Also, as you point out, people won't be educated on MAME and decide they want to contribute.   Most people who download MAME and start playing with it never intend on contributing.  Once they learn the code and add some features, they're hooked and want to begin to help.

[CheffoJeffo]

EDIT: FWIW, I think that Vanguard would agree with my closing statement because, as he says, people should get paid. We just draw the line in different places -- I draw the line at "people who do cool stuff and want to get paid" and he draws the line based on "people downstream not getting paid".

I don't think the people downstream shouldn't get paid.   I just don't think the people downstream should be getting paid when the people upstream aren't.

You're right -- I crossed the streams!

[arzoo]

Wow - I go have lunch and all hell breaks lose!  

[CheffoJeffo]

I have in the past volunteered to make a $5 donation to the MAMEDevs for every 48-in-1 or 60-in-1 board I buy.

Guilt money?

C'mon, who really thinks that I am capable of feeling guilt ? 

I'm just a grumpy old man right !

[csaun9001]

LED Blinky is AWESOME and has really added a ton to my Cab.  When I was stuck, I posed a question and ARZOO was right there to offer help to keep me going.  He should get paid for his time, without a doubt.  Sure, the free stuff is great, but his contributions have been invaluable to me.  Good luck, man, and I look forward to what comes next!!!

[Vanguard]

Wow - I go have lunch and all hell breaks lose!  

Free advertising!

Seriously arzoo, best wishes.  I don't have anything against you personally.  I think my biggest frustration is that the software community hasn't figured out an economic model that works fairly.  I'm also frustrated that the hardware community doesn't compensate the software community and they more or less expect someone to solve their shortcomings for them (free or for very little compensation).

[Vanguard]

Sure, the free stuff is great, but his contributions have been invaluable to me.

But you're missing the fact that the "free stuff" is what makes LEDBlinky work.  Arzoo does deserve to be paid for his time, work and support but realize that a lot of time, work , research and support went into the "free stuff" that is inside LEDBlinky.

[CheffoJeffo]

Somebody needs to go take the battle to Apple, Microsoft, and all of the other folks making real money off of free software.

Time to choose a more appropriate windmill.

 

[Vanguard]

See I got smart.   I work for a hardware company.

[Fordman]

More vendors are asking for support.

Im not a LED blinky user as I dont have the hardware and will not be adding hardware for this.

But you should be paid from the vendor for use/liscencing of your software. It sounds like they have a product and they want your software to be the exclusive software to make their product funtionable. Seems as if they dont want to write software for it as you have done what they want already. You should really talk to a patent attorney about possible patenting you software and requiring a license for use with with specific hardware.

You think Lexmark doesnt pay microsoft for a license agreement for Win_xxxxx to be able to use their printers? Just about 99% of software requires you to agree to a 'Terms of Use' agreement and part of the agreement is that you agree that you paid a fee (when purchasing) for the license when you bought the item.

Grandpa always says: "Gotta look out for #1, just dont step in #2 along the way!"

The fact that you gave it away, donation or not is a true testimonial to your ability to program a funtional piece of software, share with the MAME community and now its time to get paid for your efforts. Nothing wrong with a little take back when you've given for so long!

Fordman

[arzoo]

Sure, the free stuff is great, but his contributions have been invaluable to me.

But you're missing the fact that the "free stuff" is what makes LEDBlinky work.  Arzoo does deserve to be paid for his time, work and support but realize that a lot of time, work , research and support went into the "free stuff" that is inside LEDBlinky.

Vanguard - The Free Stuff inside LEDBlinky, is only used with the permission of the authors, or has been legally licensed (not free). These are the function libraries that are compiled into or included with the LEDBlinky installation.

Yes, LEDBlinky can be interfaced or integrated or associated with other software that is free - MAME, MaLa, HyperSpin, etc. This is true. But these apps are not included with the LEDBlinky license, nor  are they included with the installation, nor are they even required. All that is required to use LEDBlinky is the purchase of a supported LED hardware controller. And these are not free.

I just want to make it clear to anyone who purchases LEDBlinky that there is no misuse of other author's intellectual property.

I think my biggest frustration is that the software community hasn't figured out an economic model that works fairly.  I'm also frustrated that the hardware community doesn't compensate the software community and they more or less expect someone to solve their shortcomings for them (free or for very little compensation).

We are in agreement here.

[Vanguard]

I'm not addressing the legality of selling your software.   Yes, you are in the legal clear.

My point to csaun9001 is was that there is significant time/effort by the "free stuff" people inside of LEDBlinky.   He made it sounds like "free stuff" is something else entirely.

[milkit]

ok vangaurd you are right in every possible way and anyone who doesnt agree with you on any point is wrong.


now that we agree, you done?

[arzoo]

I understand Vanguards point. Regardless of any agreement or licenses - there was significant time and effort put into these apps. As I recall for example, the ledwiz function library was a ---smurfette--- to get working!

[Bender]

I'm not addressing the legality of selling your software.   Yes, you are in the legal clear.

My point to csaun9001 is was that there is significant time/effort by the "free stuff" people inside of LEDBlinky.   He made it sounds like "free stuff" is something else entirely.

you make it sound as if LEDBlinky is just a bunch of "free stuff" packaged together that Arzoo is trying to now sell
I don't think anything could be further from the truth
The vast majority of the program is is hard work. (Period)

[csaun9001]

In case I was misunderstood, my entire point was that ARZOO has worked really hard on LEDBlinky and I am in full support if he now want some compensation for that hard work.  Everybody likes to get things for free, sure, but not much in life is free.

[arzoo]

Thanks everyone for the positive feedback   

[Vanguard]

I'm not addressing the legality of selling your software.   Yes, you are in the legal clear.

My point to csaun9001 is was that there is significant time/effort by the "free stuff" people inside of LEDBlinky.   He made it sounds like "free stuff" is something else entirely.

you make it sound as if LEDBlinky is just a bunch of "free stuff" packaged together that Arzoo is trying to now sell

No, that's not my intent.   I fully understand how much work arzoo has done.   Also, I've backed off my original statement.   As Cheffo pointed out, not everything is about MAME.

[Vanguard]

As I recall, the ledwiz function library was a ---smurfette--- to get working!

Yes it was.  There were a bunch of users reporting that the LEDWiz/PowerMAME was either not working for them at all or was very flaky to the point of being mostly useless.

After quite a bit of debugging nothing was determined to be wrong with the driver.   After much triage and research into the setups each user was using, it was determined that the users all had one thing in common.  They all had systems with an Nvidia Nforce chipset.  The ledwiz.dll developer had to acquire a computer system with the same chipset and debug the USB traffic with a sniffer.  Once it was determined that packets were getting lost, the developer had to work with some USB experts at another company to determine what was causing the packet loss.  To this day it isn't clear whether Nvidia is actually wrong with their USB implementation or whether the LEDWiz was expecting USB protocol to be implemented a certain way.   In the end though, it didn't really matter as the problem needed to be fixed in order for the LEDWiz to be a robust product.   The problem seemed to be a timing issue and a workaround was eventually found that solves the problem with software and saved the hardware vendor significant expense recalling his product.   This was all done without the promise of pay.

[Havok]

So how does the splash screen affect command line usage and integration with a front end? I don't use the software, but I can see this causing a loss of "focus" that could screw up front ends...

[Beretta]

i think i get what you're saying vanguard, i agree with ya on some points.. to a degree.

i dont know much about LED blinky.. never used it .. dont have any hardware it will run.. yet.

but ultimately it's the authors choice.. people will either pay it, pirate it, or someone else will come up with something as good or better thats free.

these things have a way of balancing them selves out.

LED wiz is the most cost effective hardware i know of (although my research was far from exhaustive)
and in future projects is what i plan to use, with that said it sounds like LED Blinky is going paid mainly on the basis that future new hardware is going ot take more effort to support.. and there for needs to be compensated for.

ergo current versions that already support ledwiz might be all someone needs/wants, although it's always nice ot support more hardware is it worth adding if it's going to be enough work to justify switching to shareware license..

i mean are the users of LED Blinky wanting these new hardware devices? if there is'nt any demand for such it seems effort wasted.



anyway i think my question got lost in the mayhem earlier, but will versions up till current still be freely available?

[arzoo]

So how does the splash screen affect command line usage and integration with a front end? I don't use the software, but I can see this causing a loss of "focus" that could screw up front ends...

The splash displays over top of the FE and after a few seconds closes, returning focus to the FE. I tested with Hyperspin, MaLa, Maximus Arcade, and AtomicFE.

[Bender]

I'm not addressing the legality of selling your software.   Yes, you are in the legal clear.

My point to csaun9001 is was that there is significant time/effort by the "free stuff" people inside of LEDBlinky.   He made it sounds like "free stuff" is something else entirely.

you make it sound as if LEDBlinky is just a bunch of "free stuff" packaged together that Arzoo is trying to now sell

No, that's not my intent.   I fully understand how much work arzoo has done.   Also, I've backed off my original statement.   As Cheffo pointed out, not everything is about MAME.

no worries

[arzoo]

i mean are the users of LED Blinky wanting these new hardware devices? if there is'nt any demand for such it seems effort wasted.

IMO there is room for improvement when it comes to the hardware. At the very least, more competition (and really - GGG has none so far) could bring down the prices.

anyway i think my question got lost in the mayhem earlier, but will versions up till current still be freely available?

No - I have pulled the older versions from the download site. I can't stop current users from distributing the app but I would ask that they don't. Remember, the software is still technically free - just with a nag screen.

[kegger]

So where do we go to purchase this product now?

Thanks

[arzoo]

So where do we go to purchase this product now?

Thanks

LEDBlinky.net

[Ond]

I'm more than happy to pay for such a great product, I hope you stay at it for long LONG time. 

[ivwshane]

While it does suck to have to pay for something you once got free (because I'm a cheap bastard), Arzoo definitely deserves some sort of compensation.


That being said, if we do purchase the software do we get free life time updates?

[arzoo]

That being said, if we do purchase the software do we get free life time updates?

Yes

[RandyT]

Yes it was.  There were a bunch of users reporting that the LEDWiz/PowerMAME was either not working for them at all or was very flaky to the point of being mostly useless.

After quite a bit of debugging nothing was determined to be wrong with the driver.   After much triage and research into the setups each user was using, it was determined that the users all had one thing in common.  They all had systems with an Nvidia Nforce chipset.  The ledwiz.dll developer had to acquire a computer system with the same chipset and debug the USB traffic with a sniffer.  Once it was determined that packets were getting lost, the developer had to work with some USB experts at another company to determine what was causing the packet loss.  To this day it isn't clear whether Nvidia is actually wrong with their USB implementation or whether the LEDWiz was expecting USB protocol to be implemented a certain way.   In the end though, it didn't really matter as the problem needed to be fixed in order for the LEDWiz to be a robust product.   The problem seemed to be a timing issue and a workaround was eventually found that solves the problem with software and saved the hardware vendor significant expense recalling his product.   This was all done without the promise of pay.

I just want to make something known here in regard to this (in all honesty, I thought I already had.)  The Nvidia chipset was the only one which had this issue....the only one.  Whether or not they were operating within the spec, they seemed to be the only ones doing things the way they did.

Regardless, when the issue came to light, and thanks in part to the discussions with MikeQ , the LED-Wiz firmware was modified to account for the the Nvidia USB idiosyncrasy.  After I made this modification, I never had another report of the issues that were being talked about here.  This was about three years ago.

In regard to "vendors supporting their products", I want to make it very clear that I directed efforts toward other areas specifically because of the existence of AtomicFE and MikeQ's PowerMAME (which were the first apps to light controls being used) and LED-Blinky.  It was clear from discussions with Arzoo and HeadKaze that they planned on taking the animation formats in a different direction than I had planned, so I decided to cease development on this type of application and direct my limited time to projects more beneficial to the community and to the welfare of GGG.  I'd also like to point out that we often donate hardware to these causes where the end result is a useful, free application for the community.

But more to the point of the discussion, Arzoo absolutely has the right to compensated for his work.  Regardless of the engine being used to communicate with the LED-Wiz hardware, be it the free one I wrote, or the two or three others out there, there is still a lot of work that was done on the user interfacing, testing, extra features and so-on that Arzoo went through great lengths to not only provide, but to make sure worked well in the setups used by others.  I won't even go into the support aspects, which sometimes eat any profit you might be making right out from under you.

If it turns out that folks have a problem with the shareware concept of LED-Blinky, and don't find other apps which do what they would like, then I will do what I always do and fill the gaps where they appear.  But if folks like the software and it does everything you need it to, there's no reason not to support the author.

RandyT

[HaRuMaN]

With the exception of one stick-in-the-mud, everyone seemed to be supportive.   

[Santoro]

Shareware is fine with me, $20 is reasonable.  I'll be buying this summer.

[Havok]

If the application comes preconfigured to light the correct buttons for whatever game I start in Mame and light them the correct colors (i.e. what the dedicated cab has), I would purchase.

 

[ids]

Sure, it's a bummer paying for something that was free a few days ago....but....

Software development is a lot more labor intensive than most people would assume.  Bummer, sure, but oh well, I'll be chipping in when I'm ready.

Thanks arzoo, great stuff.

hmmm... maybe the hardware manufacturers should offer hardware/software combo packages?

[HaRuMaN]

I know arzoo puts a lot of work into this.  He helped me set mine up, even developed a feature based on something I wanted, so I have no qualms whatsoever about kicking some cheddar his way.   

[Turnarcades]

I suppose anyone doubting this move needs to make this consideration - give a little and continue seeing it supported or be a tightwad and watch it go away forever? There comes a point where a contribution becomes more than a little giving back and becomes a time-consuming obligation, and rightly so he has a right to get a little back. People continue to pay for Maximus Arcade which was borne under similar circumstances.

Without going into the grey area of reverse-engineering and distribution of MAME for free, comparing LEDBlinky with MAME is irrelevant as to sell the MAME core would be flat-out illegal as it is emulating existing hardware to do exactly the same job (ie ripping off an existing product), whereas software like LEDBlinky was written to perform a new task using elements of original code based on different ideas for other purposes. Would you argue that car manufacturers should pay a commission to the inventor of the wheel?

[Beretta]

Turnarcades iirc you're in the UK right? in America at least there i s no law against emulators them selves..

emulation is done all the time.. not just for playing old video games it's sometimes used in computers to provide stop gap between technologies or provide legacy support of old hardware or protocols.

[Turnarcades]

Turnarcades iirc you're in the UK right? in America at least there i s no law against emulators them selves..

emulation is done all the time.. not just for playing old video games it's sometimes used in computers to provide stop gap between technologies or provide legacy support of old hardware or protocols.

Yeah, same situation here. However, sale of emulators (as opposed to their existence and free distribution) would likely infringe the same copyrights as would taking a product, repackaging it as your own and selling that. Not that I'm an expert, just a supposition. Arzoo's got right and reason to brand LEDBlinky as his own and the only people who have right to grumble are anyone who's code was maybe borrowed (if they can prove it and are that anal).

The point I'm making is that LEDBlinky was compiled using ideas from other sources and maybe samples of code intended for other uses and not covered by copyright, into a piece of software for a specific purpose with mostly his own contributions; it wasn't a nicked open-source or shareware program that someone's tried to claim ownership to or turn profit from.

mumble... cough.... David... Foley... ahem.

[Beretta]

wow, Turnarcades nothing i said had a thing to do with LED blinky.. it was completely off topic and was only commenting about legitimacy of emulators.

did you truly get all that you wrote out of my post? i have magic fingers


for the record i dont use LED blinky, dont know the history of it, do not care what the author does with it.
i do think it's pretty crappy to retroactively yank older free versions but again that's their choice.

[headkaze]

This seems a little lame to me considering the amount of time and effort that was put into the drivers and SDK for the LEDWiz.   LEDBlinky wouldn't exist without the FREE contributions of other members.   You're essentially make money off other peoples work.   While the driver for the LEDWiz is not terribly complex,  hundreds of hours went into the debugging and devising workarounds for Nvidia USB chipset issues that made the LEDWiz flakey at best on those chipsets.

LEDBlinky is a cool product but relies on the free work that has been done by others.   Just my two cents.

It's not lame at all! Arzoo has put a tonne of work into LEDBlinky and I think he deserves to get something back for it. I have given Arzoo permission to use my UltraStik and UHID/PacDrive dll's which he didn't really need to do as I made an agreement with UltraStik to make them freely available (apart from UltraStik.dll which has never been released to the public)

It's clear to me you're MikeQ so why not just disclose that in the first place? I know you were quite jaded because of all the work you had done on LEDWiz.dll and got nothing back from Randy. Infact that was one of the reasons you stated for leaving these forums. I totally understand your feelings and even quoted you on my LEDWiz makeover site.

"If I could make a living selling software products to the MAME community, I'd quit my job tomorrow.  You guys are a lot more fun to work with than corporate America. It's unfortunate that there is a mentality that you don't pay for peoples hard work when it is software but you do when it is hardware."[/i] - MikeQ

I really just think you're upset because you couldn't make any money out of PowerMAME. But the MAME license clearly states that you can't. Just because you couldn't make money doesn't mean Arzoo can't. LEDBlinky it not strictly a MAME only product either, you could use it in a Jukebox for example. And how much money do you really think Arzoo will make? Enough to cover a fraction of his time and money spent perhaps?

In my opinion, everyone doing software should get paid.   The hardware vendors often release products that are mostly useless without the community stepping up and doing the software work (almost always with no significant compensation for the work).

It's not Arzoo's fault that hardware manufacturers don't always support developers. I offered to write a LEDWiz driver for GGG but Randy didn't want to give me the necessary documentation to do it while he gave it to MikeQ and youki. Youki restricted use of his driver in any front end other than his own. MikeQ did end up releasing his final version which was a dll and useful for the type of plugin I was writing for GameEx. The official driver by GGG was crap to say the least and written as an ActiveX control which is a pain to use in anything other than VB6 (which is a dead language for the most part now anyway).

Meanwhile I wrote drivers for Ultimarc software and while I didn't make alot of money Andy was kind enough to send me free hardware as well as some payment. It would be nice if hardware developers were more supportive like Andy and I think he has benefitted greatly by doing that. I have written quite alot of stuff for him since then and updated some of his software for free. We have a good relationship which is based on good will and I think it was a smart business move on his part aswell as displaying respectable character.

I think Randy could have been more supportive. For writing the LEDWiz plugin for GameEx he gave me a free LEDWiz but I had to pay for my buttons and second LEDWiz. I believe Arzoo encountered a similar situation where he had to buy the bulk of his hardware from GGG. That doesn't seem right to me really. It's a shame he can't even write something like LuminAudio and give away the source code or a dll for developers so they can actually make something useful with it but he wouldn't even do that. Of course both Arzoo and myself ended up writing our own audio to lighting solutions. I think Randy has upset a number of developers on here (in fact I know he has from talking to several of them) which is a shame since we work very hard to support his hardware which he is clearly profiting from. His LEDWiz software was pretty much useless from the beginning and Arzoo and I wanted to update the format (lwa) to a more modern xml format which could also support other devices such as the PacDrive (lwax). I think it's ridiculous for Randy to say he stopped development because we created a new format. What has that go to do with anything? Just face the facts that your software is useless and that people don't use it so why bother writing software when other people are doing it at no cost to you? Pretty bad attitude IMHO.

So it's really no suprise to me that LEDBlinky has gone shareware and I think Arzoo deserves to get something back for his hard work. If all hardware vendors supported freelancers like Andy did then there would be no need for it. Anyway best wishes to Arzoo!  

[syph007]

$20 bucks compared to the thousands I've spent in the last 3 years on other tools/material/time is insignificant.  I have no problem with that if it supports continued development. I've been aware of this software, but it was always going to be a phase 2 of my cab, but when I go ahead and add illuminated buttons, I'm fine with 20 bucks for control/interface software.

[RandyT]

It's not Arzoo's fault that hardware manufacturers don't always support developers. I offered to write a LEDWiz driver for GGG but Randy didn't want to give me the necessary documentation to do it while he gave it to MikeQ and youki. Youki restricted use of his driver in any front end other than his own. MikeQ did end up releasing his final version which was a dll and useful for the type of plugin I was writing for GameEx. The official driver by GGG was crap to say the least and written as an ActiveX control which is a pain to use in anything other than VB6 (which is a dead language for the most part now anyway).

It doesn't make sense to have umpteen different dll's out there that all do the same thing, especially when you already have an extremely capable individual (MikeQ) who had already written one and agreed to release his work.  And when I did offer to give you the information to write your own, after you showed that you were dedicated enough to actually do something with it, you declined in favor of using the one made by MikeQ.  As for your comments about the ActiveX control I wrote, it seems to work fine for the world's largest aluminum producer and the 100+ year old department store chain who use it every day with large quantities of the hardware, not to mention countless others.

It should also be mentioned that there could have been another approach taken, one that is taken by virtually every other "real" hardware producer, and that is to completely lock down direct communication with the device and force developers to license the one and only library so MikeQ or Youki could be compensated for their efforts.  Another could have been to officially commission someone to write a suite of apps to provide with the hardware and then charge another $30 more per unit to cover the cost and force folks to buy it, whether they wanted it or not.  No, instead we chose, at great financial risk, to make the best hardware we can for a fairly miserable profit margin to fill a void in the community, and to simply provide the basic tools and let those with the desire and skills make it do what they wanted, leaving compensation for their efforts up to them.  Perhaps this isn't the best way, based on the nature of these comments.

I think Randy could have been more supportive. For writing the LEDWiz plugin for GameEx he gave me a free LEDWiz but I had to pay for my buttons and second LEDWiz. I believe Arzoo encountered a similar situation where he had to buy the bulk of his hardware from GGG. That doesn't seem right to me really.

Just to keep your story straight, Arzoo bought all of his gear long before LED-Blinky was a gleam in his eye.  And I didn't bat an eyelash about sending him a free unit when he asked for one for development not so long ago.  And you don't know it, but I have sent out more than $500 in hardware (my cost, not retail value) based on promises of getting support under Linux.  Do you see any Linux support for the LED-Wiz?  I have attempted this 3 times, once even with an individual from this community.  There comes a time when you have to say "no more".  We aren't Intel here, just two people who bust their humps close to 12 hours a day and our "take home" pay is less than most of our customers.  If you are suggesting that we should raise our prices so that we can provide free hardware to anyone who may or may not actually produce something beneficial to the community or to GGG, then I'll take it under advisement.

I think it's ridiculous for Randy to say he stopped development because we created a new format. What has that go to do with anything?

It may not give you a warm fuzzy, but it is certainly true.  It would have made no sense for me to continue development to produce what would have been a competing piece of software with a format that it was made perfectly clear would not be supported by anyone else.

BTW, you make it seem like every hardware producer out there has a responsibility to provide software to do every possible thing that an end user might consider doing with it.  This is, at minimum, off-the-wall.  It's akin to stating that a modem producer should have written the Internet.  No, what the hardware producer is expected to deliver are the tools for others to build upon to make it do what they would like it to do.  Call it a driver, a function library, whathaveyou.  And we did that just fine, through my own efforts, and the efforts of MikeQ and Youki, about 4 years ago.  I'm sorry those efforts weren't sufficient for you.

RandyT

[headkaze]

I'm sorry those efforts weren't sufficient for you.

It's not just me who thinks your efforts wern't sufficient enough. The fact is there are other hardware manufacturers in the arcade scene that do the right thing by developers. Not because it's better for their bottom line, but because they want to support the coders who are supporting them. It's really actually a smart thing to do. I think you'll find that MikeQ is trying to tell you something in his comments in this thread.

[RandyT]

It's not just me who thinks your efforts wern't sufficient enough. The fact is there are other hardware manufacturers in the arcade scene that do the right thing by developers. Not because it's better for their bottom line, but because they want to support the coders who are supporting them. It's really actually a smart thing to do. I think you'll find that MikeQ is trying to tell you something in his comments in this thread.

No, it's because it's better for their bottom line.  I realize this, and so should you.  But as a hardware producer, everything is tangible and has real cost associated with it.  One has to be careful unless the profit margins are so high, as they apparently are with other vendors, to put those resources where they will do the most good.

As for MikeQ, I think his main issue was having his graciously donated work being used as part of a "product" that he receives no compensation for.  The fundamental difference is that the LED-Wiz, with the tools we provide, is fully functional and will continue to exist and have value outside the availability of a third party DLL or application.  The same cannot be said of a piece of software that essentially does nothing, or is severely crippled, when a third party DLL is no longer present.  Perhaps Arzoo should offer MikeQ a portion of whatever proceeds he derives through his use of it, as is commonly done for any 3rd party programming libraries one wishes to incorporate into a commercial product.  This is the gist of what I read in this thread.

RandyT

[headkaze]

No, it's because it's better for their bottom line.  I realize this, and so should you.  But as a hardware producer, everything is tangible and has real cost associated with it.  One has to be careful unless the profit margins are so high, as they apparently are with other vendors, to put those resources where they will do the most good.

Just because software isn't tangible doesn't mean my time isn't worth anything.

As for MikeQ, I think his main issue was having his graciously donated work being used as part of a "product" that he receives no compensation for.  The fundamental difference is that the LED-Wiz, with the tools we provide, is fully functional and will continue to exist and have value outside the availability of a third party DLL or application.  The same cannot be said of a piece of software that essentially does nothing, or is severely crippled, when a third party DLL is no longer present.  Perhaps Arzoo should offer MikeQ a portion of whatever proceeds he derives through his use of it, as is commonly done for any 3rd party programming libraries one wishes to incorporate into a commercial product.  This is the gist of what I read in this thread.

So you think Arzoo should pay me and MikeQ for using our free components? I don't really agree with that. If I wanted to get compensated it would be free for non-commercial use. The reason it isn't is because Andy paid me to make it free. It's not the components he's selling it's his software. Just as your hardware is useless without a driver, a driver is useless without software to do something with it. I don't think MikeQ's point is Arzoo should be compensating him, read what he has been saying, he's saying hardware vendors should. If you did LEDBlinky would still be freeware.

[Beretta]

it obvious i lack a lot of the history being discussed here.
however i will say this, from what i can tell randy is offering the cheapest solution with the ledwiz.
its' always nice for hardware venders to either have a ready product or to support those who are developing.

however there has been the history that when there is a need someone usually fills it.. necessity is the mother of all invention.
rather or not a programmer decides to share their invention is up to them.
however no one should expect they'll write something and get money, Unless that is the motivation to start with.

if someone volunteers to write something they shouldn't get cranky when they dont get paid or supported with free stuff to help their efforts.

i also believe randy when he says he busts his hump and does'nt get rich off of it, with that said i believe those unhappy with the past should follow this rule:

never release anything to the community or do any work without getting paid.
further more never undertake something thats going to COST you money unless you're going to make a profit.

but people will not follow such a rule, they'll continue in the future to fill gaps, not get paid or free support, then cry when neither happens.

bottom line if you want paid get it in writing, else wise consider it a project for your self and keep the fruit hidden.

[headkaze]

Beretta: I think you misundertand the point here. Arzoo clearly started LEDBlinky with the intention of making a free software solution for arcade cabinets. But this software is clearly selling hardware, not only for the manufacturers of products like the LEDWiz, but for commercial arcade cabinets with luminated buttons. Arzoo has spent a long time developing LEDBlinky and it is used by alot of people. LEDBlinky sells hardware, that is the bottom line. And Arzoo is not trying to twist Randy's arm to pay him for it which is why he has made it shareware. What I'm saying is that they should compensate because it makes sense and it's the right thing to do. Andy may have compensated me but I doubt he would have the same value hiring a programmer to do the same thing. So we don't really ask for much, free hardware goes a long way, and sometimes paying someone out of good will is definately a nice jesture (and we certainly give value for money in the long run). Andy did not have any obligation to do it, but I asked him and it made sense to him. Also you don't seem to get the time involved in writing software. We do it because we love it, but it is very time consuming and I don't see why someone shouldn't get a little back for it. Even just to buy their poor wives some shoes! LOL

[RandyT]

Just because software isn't tangible doesn't mean my time isn't worth anything.

No, but it's only an apt comparison if the time you spend is a day you didn't go to work and won't be payed for.

So you think Arzoo should pay me and MikeQ for using our free components? I don't really agree with that. If I wanted to get compensated it would be free for non-commercial use. The reason it isn't is because Andy paid me to make it free.

Then I guess it's really not "your" DLL anymore if your were paid to make it free.  But I understand what you are saying.  Again, you are advocating a price increase for my products that a lot of folks here probably won't be happy with you for.

It's not the components he's selling it's his software. Just as your hardware is useless without a driver, a driver is useless without software to do something with it. I don't think MikeQ's point is Arzoo should be compensating him, read what he has been saying, he's saying hardware vendors should. If you did LEDBlinky would still be freeware.

The hardware has "a driver" that we supply (at no charge), which still works perfectly with the latest version of Windows.  If the DLL's didn't exist 4 years ago, I would have changed that situation by now as well.  As for what MikeQ said, I re-iterated it almost verbatim.  As for LEDBlinky still being freeware if I compensated MikeQ or Youki, I'm having difficulty grokking the connection.  If you are saying that I should be charging everyone $20 more per unit so I can include a copy of LEDBlinky, then I am having difficulty taking you seriously.

RandyT

[Hoopz]

As an owner of an Led-Wiz for 3+ years, I can say that the basic functionality of it is nothing compared to what the 3rd party vendors made available.  It took awhile for that to happen and I'm glad it did.  The hardware is nice, but the software makes it very cool.

The bottom line for me is that the added functionality is more than worth the $20 to Arzoo.  Would I pay $20 more for the hardware?  Yes, but only if it had the increased functionality that it comes with now.  At best, what it would do when I first got it is/was rudimentary then compared to now.  

[RandyT]

As an owner of an Led-Wiz for 3+ years, I can say that the basic functionality of it is nothing compared to what the 3rd party vendors made available.  It took awhile for that to happen and I'm glad it did.  The hardware is nice, but the software makes it very cool.

The bottom line for me is that the added functionality is more than worth the $20 to Arzoo.  Would I pay $20 more for the hardware?  Yes, but only if it had the increased functionality that it comes with now.  At best, what it would do when I first got it is/was rudimentary then compared to now.  

Just to put things in perspective, I think you just described every piece of hardware ever made.  A cable modem is pretty cool too, but how cool would it be without the 10's of millions of man hours of web content that the cable modem maker never had the smallest hand in producing.

There's a lot of confusion in this thread, and I'm honestly not sure what's fueling it.

RandyT

[Beretta]

Beretta: I think you misundertand the point here. Arzoo clearly started LEDBlinky with the intention of making a free software solution for arcade cabinets. But this software is clearly selling hardware, not only for the manufacturers of products like the LEDWiz, but for commercial arcade cabinets with luminated buttons. Arzoo has spent a long time developing LEDBlinky and it is used by alot of people. LEDBlinky sells hardware, that is the bottom line. And Arzoo is not trying to twist Randy's arm to pay him for it which is why he has made it shareware.

i did not misunderstand.. i do however disagree.

if Arzoo wants to change LED Blinky to shareware more power to him.

however if his intent was to put out a free program then thats the bottom line.. not oh i put out a free program but wait a minute.. people are buying some hardware BECAUSE of it, this makes no difference what so ever.

What I'm saying is that they should compensate because it makes sense and it's the right thing to do.

if you want compensation rather in the form of money or hardware then you should have such an agreement.
if you do so in absence of either you have absolutely no room to cry about it later.

do i come to your house cut your lawn then cry if you dont pay me even though we had no such agreement?

Andy may have compensated me but I doubt he would have the same value hiring a programmer to do the same thing. So we don't really ask for much, free hardware goes a long way, and sometimes paying someone out of good will is definately a nice jesture (and we certainly give value for money in the long run). Andy did not have any obligation to do it, but I asked him and it made sense to him.

woudl you have done it if he had'nt?, point is those who undertake something without the agreement for compensation have no room to cry later when its' not offered out of the kindness of someone elses heart.

never assume you'll get something out of releasing a free piece of software.

Also you don't seem to get the time involved in writing software. We do it because we love it, but it is very time consuming and I don't see why someone shouldn't get a little back for it. Even just to buy their poor wives some shoes! LOL

i do actually, no im not a programmer my self though.

you obviously do not do it because you love it because later you cry if you dont get something out of it.
if you want something then demand it, charge for it, do not just expect you'll get material gain from it.

1. do it for money or other material gain.
2. do it for your self (and keep the program private)
3. do it as a gift to the world.. or perhaps for your self that you share with the world.

those are the only 3 reasons.. anyone who does #3 but then complains when they dont get #1 is just a cry baby in my opinion.

Arzoo has the right idea, they tried #3, not getting #1, so now they went to shareware.
that's their right as author.. if anyone has an objection to that based on the libraries they're using then i suggest they make a legal claim if they have one otherwise hush up about it.


again bottom line if you want any sort of compensation demand it from the start dont automatically expect it later and if it dont happen.

[Hoopz]

As an owner of an Led-Wiz for 3+ years, I can say that the basic functionality of it is nothing compared to what the 3rd party vendors made available.  It took awhile for that to happen and I'm glad it did.  The hardware is nice, but the software makes it very cool.

The bottom line for me is that the added functionality is more than worth the $20 to Arzoo.  Would I pay $20 more for the hardware?  Yes, but only if it had the increased functionality that it comes with now.  At best, what it would do when I first got it is/was rudimentary then compared to now.  

Just to put things in perspective, I think you just described every piece of hardware ever made.  A cable modem is pretty cool too, but how cool would it be without the 10's of millions of man hours of web content that the cable modem maker never had the smallest hand in producing.

There's a lot of confusion in this thread, and I'm honestly not sure what's fueling it.

RandyT

I'm not confused.  You said that many of us wouldn't be happy paying $20 more for your hardware (Led-Wiz).  I'm saying I would if it was packaged with software that was more functional than what I got 3 years ago.  To me, the software increases the value of the hardware by more than $20.  Was I unhappy that I bought hardware and the software to run it was very basic? No.  I wasn't thrilled with the idea that you turned the software development over to the community to handle for you (generalization).  But they produced a product that greatly enhanced your hardware.  Do I think it's now worth $20?  Yes.  Don't for a second think that the software hasn't affected your bottom line.  You definitely have benefited because of what they've done.  

Bottom line is I'm happy to pay for the increased functionality to the hardware.  Your references to other hardware products aren't accurate.  Buying a router is buying a router (again, a generalization).  However, buying a router and then installing Tomato or other software that greatly increases what it can do is a much different scenario.

[HaRuMaN]

[Beretta]

randy charging 20 bucks to cover the LED Blinky license is a bad idea because it would be charged on EVERY ledwiz.

further more the buyer might be paying for a program they dont want.. much like buying a PC gets you a copy of windows.. which you pay for in the price btw.. but not everyone wants windows.

ledblinky probably has boosted randy's sell of ledwiz if the original software was as bad as is reported.. but is that his fault? even if he did have very basic software with his ledwiz and created a need for something more.. again is it his fault someone went out and developed software for it on their own?

should he be obligated to payout for ledblinky?

you can't be serious.. rather someone thinks it's the moral thing to do is their opinion.

it has absolutely no legal standing in business.. and make no mistake when you start bringing money into the picture it's business pure and simple dont dilute your self into thinking it's anything else.

[HaRuMaN]

[Hoopz]

randy charging 20 bucks to cover the LED Blinky license is a bad idea because it would be charged on EVERY ledwiz.

further more the buyer might be paying for a program they dont want.. much like buying a PC gets you a copy of windows.. which you pay for in the price btw.. but not everyone wants windows.

ledblinky probably has boosted randy's sell of ledwiz if the original software was as bad as is reported.. but is that his fault? even if he did have very basic software with his ledwiz and created a need for something more.. again is it his fault someone went out and developed software for it on their own?

should he be obligated to payout for ledblinky?

you can't be serious.. rather someone thinks it's the moral thing to do is their opinion.

it has absolutely no legal standing in business.. and make no mistake when you start bringing money into the picture it's business pure and simple dont dilute your self into thinking it's anything else.

I didn't say Randy should charge it.  I said I would pay it more for the software.  Huge difference.

I didn't say the software was bad initially.  I said it was basic.  That's not bad.  It did the basic things.  Even Randy will admit that what can be done now is much different than then.  That's not knocking what it did then.  It's compliment to Arzoo and it's also a complement (yes, spelled differently) to Randy's product.

I didn't say anything about Randy paying for Ledblinky or even imply that.  I gave my opinion on the value and worth of the hardware when I received it, the software that I used with it then, and what's available today.

Debating/arguing is fine.  Don't read more into what I posted Ummon, I mean Berretta.   

[arzoo]

I've been reading along - trying to decide if I should respond - so many statements I agree with and so many others I disagree with. Then... the cat picture! Almost ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- my pants laughing!

[HaRuMaN]

I wanted to inject a little humor...   

[Hoopz]

I've been reading along - trying to decide if I should respond - so many statements I agree with and so many others I disagree with. Then... the cat picture! Almost ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- my pants laughing!

Great, just encourage him!  

[Beretta]

i apologize for the misunderstanding.

still some of my post relates to what others have said in the thread

[HaRuMaN]

I need no encouragement, I can be quite silly with no external help.  

[RandyT]

I'm not confused.  You said that many of us wouldn't be happy paying $20 more for your hardware (Led-Wiz).  I'm saying I would if it was packaged with software that was more functional than what I got 3 years ago.  To me, the software increases the value of the hardware by more than $20.  Was I unhappy that I bought hardware and the software to run it was very basic? No.  I wasn't thrilled with the idea that you turned the software development over to the community to handle for you (generalization).  But they produced a product that greatly enhanced your hardware.  Do I think it's now worth $20?  Yes.  Don't for a second think that the software hasn't affected your bottom line.  You definitely have benefited because of what they've done.  

Then pay the author the $20 . Why do you think this involves GGG in any way?  This is the confusion I am referring to.  Everything in this hobby has come about in a very evolutionary way.  Without the LED-Wiz, and the market it developed virtually on it's own, there would not have been copycat products nor the need for anyone here to develop any software at all.  And now suddenly people want to look at me as though I am taking advantage of someone because they wrote a piece of software I didn't ask them to write?

I don't know what some of you are smoking, but I definitely don't want any of it .

Bottom line is I'm happy to pay for the increased functionality to the hardware.  Your references to other hardware products aren't accurate.  Buying a router is buying a router (again, a generalization).  However, buying a router and then installing Tomato or other software that greatly increases what it can do is a much different scenario.

No, actually they are.  My two biggest customers to date for this hardware have absolutely no use for LEDBlinky, or MikeQ's DLL, and that is a fact.  The LED-Wiz and LED-Wiz+GP are very capable Output and I/O controllers respectively, and have broad and far reaching applications beyond the arcade controls community.  They also have some pretty neat features built in, programmed by yours truly over the course of months, which allow this community to develop the software that does what it does.  But it isn't just a board that lets you light up the controls you use in a game, any more than a cable modem is just a box that lets you check your email.

RandyT

[Hoopz]

I'm not confused.  You said that many of us wouldn't be happy paying $20 more for your hardware (Led-Wiz).  I'm saying I would if it was packaged with software that was more functional than what I got 3 years ago.  To me, the software increases the value of the hardware by more than $20.  Was I unhappy that I bought hardware and the software to run it was very basic? No.  I wasn't thrilled with the idea that you turned the software development over to the community to handle for you (generalization).  But they produced a product that greatly enhanced your hardware.  Do I think it's now worth $20?  Yes.  Don't for a second think that the software hasn't affected your bottom line.  You definitely have benefited because of what they've done.  

Then pay the author the $20 . Why do you think this involves GGG in any way?  This is the confusion I am referring to.  Everything in this hobby has come about in a very evolutionary way.  Without the LED-Wiz, and the market it developed virtually on it's own, there would not have been copycat products nor the need for anyone here to develop any software at all.  And now suddenly people want to look at me as though I am taking advantage of someone because they wrote a piece of software I didn't ask them to write?

I don't know what some of you are smoking, but I definitely don't want any of it .

Bottom line is I'm happy to pay for the increased functionality to the hardware.  Your references to other hardware products aren't accurate.  Buying a router is buying a router (again, a generalization).  However, buying a router and then installing Tomato or other software that greatly increases what it can do is a much different scenario.

No, actually they are.  My two biggest customers to date for this hardware have absolutely no use for LEDBlinky, or MikeQ's DLL, and that is a fact.  The LED-Wiz and LED-Wiz+GP are very capable Output and I/O controllers respectively, and have broad and far reaching applications beyond the arcade controls community.  They also have some pretty neat features built in, programmed by yours truly over the course of months, which allow this community to develop the software that does what it does.  But it isn't just a board that lets you light up the controls you use in a game, any more than a cable modem is just a box that lets you check your email.

RandyT

I didn't say this involves you.  I simply pointed out that, to me, that I would pay $20 more for the hardware if it came packaged with this software or the equivalent.  Since it didn't and doesn't, I was merely sharing my opinion that if it did, I would pay for it.  I believe that's germane to the topic as someone else mentioned broached that topic.

I don't think your two biggest customers are relevant in this discussion.  They don't use the hardware in the same capacity that we do.  Obviously, it's apples to oranges.  My point about the router/tomato is that a third party developed an application that went beyond what the developer did.  I don't have anecdotal evidence to support my idea that third party software that is specially designed for such products enhances the relative value of the product and adds to the sales.  But I don't think any one can dispute that having an outstanding and high quality piece of software does, in fact, add value to the hardware.  I'm not saying you supported it, asked for it, or _______.  It's simply an opinion that I think has a basis in fact.

i apologize for the misunderstanding.

still some of my post relates to what others have said in the thread

No need to apologize.  And I could see that you were responding to others.  Thanks for not getting worked up about the Ummon comment.  It was meant as a joke.  

EDIT:   RandyT said $30, I thought someone said $20.  I'd pay $30 (Arzoo, don't get mad if I send just $20!  ).

[kronic24601]

One of the things that has seriously frustrated me as a newer member to the Mame community has been all the dropped support on misc software, services, or even hardware development. Often times members create some new thing that is helpful for a time, then as things get busy, they sort of just drop the project... thus making it irrelevant. Vendors go out of business, and others stop being able to provide cool services. This is will ALWAYS be the case when it comes to free stuff or even low margin products/services/software.

There are so many awesome developers that worked on their misc projects because it was their hobby and it was fun. Yes, extremely time intensive ... but they didn't do it for the money. Even if there was money involved I can't imagine it was worth what they could make on other projects.

I've never even used LEDBlinky but I paid the $20 right away. Why? Because if that's what it will take to keep Arzoo supporting the software than so BE it! I'm in full support, just stay involved ... please for the love of God ... don't go! It's the same reason I pay for FTP access and cool transitions for Hyperspin. I want the project to keep evolving.

As for the other issue, without knowing the full back story to all the vendor vs. developer drama, what I do know is this. Andy and Randy although do compete on many levels in the hardware biz (and I'm sure things can get heated at times), they BOTH provide a very useful service to this community. I for one have bought many things from both of them (to spread the love  ). The reality is though even though I end up spending a ton of cash, for these short run, small quantity kind of orders I cannot imagine they (either) are raking in tons of cash. If either one would decide to close up shop I can guarantee that the entire arcade community would feel the effects.

My two cents? Randy (or any vendor) is probably just doing what he can to keep a business running, clearly any additional cost he pays to support other software developers (which is an option) would come as a cost passed on directly to the buyers. The real question then becomes, can it still be sold for the quantity that makes any of this nearly worthwhile? Maybe the answer is no ... I'm not sure, but it is a realistic business consideration. Bottom line is that any Vendor needs to make a profit and at the same time be able to offer a quality product to a community for a reasonable price ... that's business.

However, all that being said, perhaps there is an opportunity for (in this case I'll pick on Randy) to lump in a limited version on LEDBlinky with the LED-Wiz, charge an extra $5 (just picking a number here, deal would have to be worked out with Arzoo) ... the idea would be that since Arzoo will get $5 on every LED-WIZ, it would be about the same as the $20 every 1-in-4 people will pay?? Just a thought though... once again, it's a business strategy that both parties would need to like, and would be beneficial to both. ... but now I'm just rambling.

[Ond]

   sorry, please continue

[ryantheleach]

strange ideas people are having.

ANYONE thinking that randy should have to pay people to make supporting software outside simple drivers and dll's to drive the thing and keep the cost of the device the same is nuts.


just look at the apple iphone.

apple release the product, a basic OS, with enough framework to let software developers get busy.
if the software developers release the app for free, everyone wins.
if software developers decide to charge for the app, apple take 30% of all sales.

Now i'm not saying apples way of doing things is right or fair, its just a business model.

but on the other hand there ARE people who get an iphone because its "hip and cool" and never use the apps.
so should these apps come as standard? of course not.
im sure theres customers of randy who dont even use this thing for arcade machines or mame, just people who want an easy output from a pc for some project or other during prototype phase.