A word about LEDBlinky…

[headkaze]

No, it's because it's better for their bottom line.  I realize this, and so should you.  But as a hardware producer, everything is tangible and has real cost associated with it.  One has to be careful unless the profit margins are so high, as they apparently are with other vendors, to put those resources where they will do the most good.

Just because software isn't tangible doesn't mean my time isn't worth anything.

As for MikeQ, I think his main issue was having his graciously donated work being used as part of a "product" that he receives no compensation for.  The fundamental difference is that the LED-Wiz, with the tools we provide, is fully functional and will continue to exist and have value outside the availability of a third party DLL or application.  The same cannot be said of a piece of software that essentially does nothing, or is severely crippled, when a third party DLL is no longer present.  Perhaps Arzoo should offer MikeQ a portion of whatever proceeds he derives through his use of it, as is commonly done for any 3rd party programming libraries one wishes to incorporate into a commercial product.  This is the gist of what I read in this thread.

So you think Arzoo should pay me and MikeQ for using our free components? I don't really agree with that. If I wanted to get compensated it would be free for non-commercial use. The reason it isn't is because Andy paid me to make it free. It's not the components he's selling it's his software. Just as your hardware is useless without a driver, a driver is useless without software to do something with it. I don't think MikeQ's point is Arzoo should be compensating him, read what he has been saying, he's saying hardware vendors should. If you did LEDBlinky would still be freeware.

[Beretta]

it obvious i lack a lot of the history being discussed here.
however i will say this, from what i can tell randy is offering the cheapest solution with the ledwiz.
its' always nice for hardware venders to either have a ready product or to support those who are developing.

however there has been the history that when there is a need someone usually fills it.. necessity is the mother of all invention.
rather or not a programmer decides to share their invention is up to them.
however no one should expect they'll write something and get money, Unless that is the motivation to start with.

if someone volunteers to write something they shouldn't get cranky when they dont get paid or supported with free stuff to help their efforts.

i also believe randy when he says he busts his hump and does'nt get rich off of it, with that said i believe those unhappy with the past should follow this rule:

never release anything to the community or do any work without getting paid.
further more never undertake something thats going to COST you money unless you're going to make a profit.

but people will not follow such a rule, they'll continue in the future to fill gaps, not get paid or free support, then cry when neither happens.

bottom line if you want paid get it in writing, else wise consider it a project for your self and keep the fruit hidden.

[headkaze]

Beretta: I think you misundertand the point here. Arzoo clearly started LEDBlinky with the intention of making a free software solution for arcade cabinets. But this software is clearly selling hardware, not only for the manufacturers of products like the LEDWiz, but for commercial arcade cabinets with luminated buttons. Arzoo has spent a long time developing LEDBlinky and it is used by alot of people. LEDBlinky sells hardware, that is the bottom line. And Arzoo is not trying to twist Randy's arm to pay him for it which is why he has made it shareware. What I'm saying is that they should compensate because it makes sense and it's the right thing to do. Andy may have compensated me but I doubt he would have the same value hiring a programmer to do the same thing. So we don't really ask for much, free hardware goes a long way, and sometimes paying someone out of good will is definately a nice jesture (and we certainly give value for money in the long run). Andy did not have any obligation to do it, but I asked him and it made sense to him. Also you don't seem to get the time involved in writing software. We do it because we love it, but it is very time consuming and I don't see why someone shouldn't get a little back for it. Even just to buy their poor wives some shoes! LOL

[RandyT]

Just because software isn't tangible doesn't mean my time isn't worth anything.

No, but it's only an apt comparison if the time you spend is a day you didn't go to work and won't be payed for.

So you think Arzoo should pay me and MikeQ for using our free components? I don't really agree with that. If I wanted to get compensated it would be free for non-commercial use. The reason it isn't is because Andy paid me to make it free.

Then I guess it's really not "your" DLL anymore if your were paid to make it free.  But I understand what you are saying.  Again, you are advocating a price increase for my products that a lot of folks here probably won't be happy with you for.

It's not the components he's selling it's his software. Just as your hardware is useless without a driver, a driver is useless without software to do something with it. I don't think MikeQ's point is Arzoo should be compensating him, read what he has been saying, he's saying hardware vendors should. If you did LEDBlinky would still be freeware.

The hardware has "a driver" that we supply (at no charge), which still works perfectly with the latest version of Windows.  If the DLL's didn't exist 4 years ago, I would have changed that situation by now as well.  As for what MikeQ said, I re-iterated it almost verbatim.  As for LEDBlinky still being freeware if I compensated MikeQ or Youki, I'm having difficulty grokking the connection.  If you are saying that I should be charging everyone $20 more per unit so I can include a copy of LEDBlinky, then I am having difficulty taking you seriously.

RandyT

[Hoopz]

As an owner of an Led-Wiz for 3+ years, I can say that the basic functionality of it is nothing compared to what the 3rd party vendors made available.  It took awhile for that to happen and I'm glad it did.  The hardware is nice, but the software makes it very cool.

The bottom line for me is that the added functionality is more than worth the $20 to Arzoo.  Would I pay $20 more for the hardware?  Yes, but only if it had the increased functionality that it comes with now.  At best, what it would do when I first got it is/was rudimentary then compared to now.  

[RandyT]

As an owner of an Led-Wiz for 3+ years, I can say that the basic functionality of it is nothing compared to what the 3rd party vendors made available.  It took awhile for that to happen and I'm glad it did.  The hardware is nice, but the software makes it very cool.

The bottom line for me is that the added functionality is more than worth the $20 to Arzoo.  Would I pay $20 more for the hardware?  Yes, but only if it had the increased functionality that it comes with now.  At best, what it would do when I first got it is/was rudimentary then compared to now.  

Just to put things in perspective, I think you just described every piece of hardware ever made.  A cable modem is pretty cool too, but how cool would it be without the 10's of millions of man hours of web content that the cable modem maker never had the smallest hand in producing.

There's a lot of confusion in this thread, and I'm honestly not sure what's fueling it.

RandyT

[Beretta]

Beretta: I think you misundertand the point here. Arzoo clearly started LEDBlinky with the intention of making a free software solution for arcade cabinets. But this software is clearly selling hardware, not only for the manufacturers of products like the LEDWiz, but for commercial arcade cabinets with luminated buttons. Arzoo has spent a long time developing LEDBlinky and it is used by alot of people. LEDBlinky sells hardware, that is the bottom line. And Arzoo is not trying to twist Randy's arm to pay him for it which is why he has made it shareware.

i did not misunderstand.. i do however disagree.

if Arzoo wants to change LED Blinky to shareware more power to him.

however if his intent was to put out a free program then thats the bottom line.. not oh i put out a free program but wait a minute.. people are buying some hardware BECAUSE of it, this makes no difference what so ever.

What I'm saying is that they should compensate because it makes sense and it's the right thing to do.

if you want compensation rather in the form of money or hardware then you should have such an agreement.
if you do so in absence of either you have absolutely no room to cry about it later.

do i come to your house cut your lawn then cry if you dont pay me even though we had no such agreement?

Andy may have compensated me but I doubt he would have the same value hiring a programmer to do the same thing. So we don't really ask for much, free hardware goes a long way, and sometimes paying someone out of good will is definately a nice jesture (and we certainly give value for money in the long run). Andy did not have any obligation to do it, but I asked him and it made sense to him.

woudl you have done it if he had'nt?, point is those who undertake something without the agreement for compensation have no room to cry later when its' not offered out of the kindness of someone elses heart.

never assume you'll get something out of releasing a free piece of software.

Also you don't seem to get the time involved in writing software. We do it because we love it, but it is very time consuming and I don't see why someone shouldn't get a little back for it. Even just to buy their poor wives some shoes! LOL

i do actually, no im not a programmer my self though.

you obviously do not do it because you love it because later you cry if you dont get something out of it.
if you want something then demand it, charge for it, do not just expect you'll get material gain from it.

1. do it for money or other material gain.
2. do it for your self (and keep the program private)
3. do it as a gift to the world.. or perhaps for your self that you share with the world.

those are the only 3 reasons.. anyone who does #3 but then complains when they dont get #1 is just a cry baby in my opinion.

Arzoo has the right idea, they tried #3, not getting #1, so now they went to shareware.
that's their right as author.. if anyone has an objection to that based on the libraries they're using then i suggest they make a legal claim if they have one otherwise hush up about it.


again bottom line if you want any sort of compensation demand it from the start dont automatically expect it later and if it dont happen.

[Hoopz]

As an owner of an Led-Wiz for 3+ years, I can say that the basic functionality of it is nothing compared to what the 3rd party vendors made available.  It took awhile for that to happen and I'm glad it did.  The hardware is nice, but the software makes it very cool.

The bottom line for me is that the added functionality is more than worth the $20 to Arzoo.  Would I pay $20 more for the hardware?  Yes, but only if it had the increased functionality that it comes with now.  At best, what it would do when I first got it is/was rudimentary then compared to now.  

Just to put things in perspective, I think you just described every piece of hardware ever made.  A cable modem is pretty cool too, but how cool would it be without the 10's of millions of man hours of web content that the cable modem maker never had the smallest hand in producing.

There's a lot of confusion in this thread, and I'm honestly not sure what's fueling it.

RandyT

I'm not confused.  You said that many of us wouldn't be happy paying $20 more for your hardware (Led-Wiz).  I'm saying I would if it was packaged with software that was more functional than what I got 3 years ago.  To me, the software increases the value of the hardware by more than $20.  Was I unhappy that I bought hardware and the software to run it was very basic? No.  I wasn't thrilled with the idea that you turned the software development over to the community to handle for you (generalization).  But they produced a product that greatly enhanced your hardware.  Do I think it's now worth $20?  Yes.  Don't for a second think that the software hasn't affected your bottom line.  You definitely have benefited because of what they've done.  

Bottom line is I'm happy to pay for the increased functionality to the hardware.  Your references to other hardware products aren't accurate.  Buying a router is buying a router (again, a generalization).  However, buying a router and then installing Tomato or other software that greatly increases what it can do is a much different scenario.

[HaRuMaN]

[Beretta]

randy charging 20 bucks to cover the LED Blinky license is a bad idea because it would be charged on EVERY ledwiz.

further more the buyer might be paying for a program they dont want.. much like buying a PC gets you a copy of windows.. which you pay for in the price btw.. but not everyone wants windows.

ledblinky probably has boosted randy's sell of ledwiz if the original software was as bad as is reported.. but is that his fault? even if he did have very basic software with his ledwiz and created a need for something more.. again is it his fault someone went out and developed software for it on their own?

should he be obligated to payout for ledblinky?

you can't be serious.. rather someone thinks it's the moral thing to do is their opinion.

it has absolutely no legal standing in business.. and make no mistake when you start bringing money into the picture it's business pure and simple dont dilute your self into thinking it's anything else.

[HaRuMaN]

[Hoopz]

randy charging 20 bucks to cover the LED Blinky license is a bad idea because it would be charged on EVERY ledwiz.

further more the buyer might be paying for a program they dont want.. much like buying a PC gets you a copy of windows.. which you pay for in the price btw.. but not everyone wants windows.

ledblinky probably has boosted randy's sell of ledwiz if the original software was as bad as is reported.. but is that his fault? even if he did have very basic software with his ledwiz and created a need for something more.. again is it his fault someone went out and developed software for it on their own?

should he be obligated to payout for ledblinky?

you can't be serious.. rather someone thinks it's the moral thing to do is their opinion.

it has absolutely no legal standing in business.. and make no mistake when you start bringing money into the picture it's business pure and simple dont dilute your self into thinking it's anything else.

I didn't say Randy should charge it.  I said I would pay it more for the software.  Huge difference.

I didn't say the software was bad initially.  I said it was basic.  That's not bad.  It did the basic things.  Even Randy will admit that what can be done now is much different than then.  That's not knocking what it did then.  It's compliment to Arzoo and it's also a complement (yes, spelled differently) to Randy's product.

I didn't say anything about Randy paying for Ledblinky or even imply that.  I gave my opinion on the value and worth of the hardware when I received it, the software that I used with it then, and what's available today.

Debating/arguing is fine.  Don't read more into what I posted Ummon, I mean Berretta.   

[arzoo]

I've been reading along - trying to decide if I should respond - so many statements I agree with and so many others I disagree with. Then... the cat picture! Almost ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- my pants laughing!

[HaRuMaN]

I wanted to inject a little humor...   

[Hoopz]

I've been reading along - trying to decide if I should respond - so many statements I agree with and so many others I disagree with. Then... the cat picture! Almost ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- my pants laughing!

Great, just encourage him!  

[Beretta]

i apologize for the misunderstanding.

still some of my post relates to what others have said in the thread

[HaRuMaN]

I need no encouragement, I can be quite silly with no external help.  

[RandyT]

I'm not confused.  You said that many of us wouldn't be happy paying $20 more for your hardware (Led-Wiz).  I'm saying I would if it was packaged with software that was more functional than what I got 3 years ago.  To me, the software increases the value of the hardware by more than $20.  Was I unhappy that I bought hardware and the software to run it was very basic? No.  I wasn't thrilled with the idea that you turned the software development over to the community to handle for you (generalization).  But they produced a product that greatly enhanced your hardware.  Do I think it's now worth $20?  Yes.  Don't for a second think that the software hasn't affected your bottom line.  You definitely have benefited because of what they've done.  

Then pay the author the $20 . Why do you think this involves GGG in any way?  This is the confusion I am referring to.  Everything in this hobby has come about in a very evolutionary way.  Without the LED-Wiz, and the market it developed virtually on it's own, there would not have been copycat products nor the need for anyone here to develop any software at all.  And now suddenly people want to look at me as though I am taking advantage of someone because they wrote a piece of software I didn't ask them to write?

I don't know what some of you are smoking, but I definitely don't want any of it .

Bottom line is I'm happy to pay for the increased functionality to the hardware.  Your references to other hardware products aren't accurate.  Buying a router is buying a router (again, a generalization).  However, buying a router and then installing Tomato or other software that greatly increases what it can do is a much different scenario.

No, actually they are.  My two biggest customers to date for this hardware have absolutely no use for LEDBlinky, or MikeQ's DLL, and that is a fact.  The LED-Wiz and LED-Wiz+GP are very capable Output and I/O controllers respectively, and have broad and far reaching applications beyond the arcade controls community.  They also have some pretty neat features built in, programmed by yours truly over the course of months, which allow this community to develop the software that does what it does.  But it isn't just a board that lets you light up the controls you use in a game, any more than a cable modem is just a box that lets you check your email.

RandyT

[Hoopz]

I'm not confused.  You said that many of us wouldn't be happy paying $20 more for your hardware (Led-Wiz).  I'm saying I would if it was packaged with software that was more functional than what I got 3 years ago.  To me, the software increases the value of the hardware by more than $20.  Was I unhappy that I bought hardware and the software to run it was very basic? No.  I wasn't thrilled with the idea that you turned the software development over to the community to handle for you (generalization).  But they produced a product that greatly enhanced your hardware.  Do I think it's now worth $20?  Yes.  Don't for a second think that the software hasn't affected your bottom line.  You definitely have benefited because of what they've done.  

Then pay the author the $20 . Why do you think this involves GGG in any way?  This is the confusion I am referring to.  Everything in this hobby has come about in a very evolutionary way.  Without the LED-Wiz, and the market it developed virtually on it's own, there would not have been copycat products nor the need for anyone here to develop any software at all.  And now suddenly people want to look at me as though I am taking advantage of someone because they wrote a piece of software I didn't ask them to write?

I don't know what some of you are smoking, but I definitely don't want any of it .

Bottom line is I'm happy to pay for the increased functionality to the hardware.  Your references to other hardware products aren't accurate.  Buying a router is buying a router (again, a generalization).  However, buying a router and then installing Tomato or other software that greatly increases what it can do is a much different scenario.

No, actually they are.  My two biggest customers to date for this hardware have absolutely no use for LEDBlinky, or MikeQ's DLL, and that is a fact.  The LED-Wiz and LED-Wiz+GP are very capable Output and I/O controllers respectively, and have broad and far reaching applications beyond the arcade controls community.  They also have some pretty neat features built in, programmed by yours truly over the course of months, which allow this community to develop the software that does what it does.  But it isn't just a board that lets you light up the controls you use in a game, any more than a cable modem is just a box that lets you check your email.

RandyT

I didn't say this involves you.  I simply pointed out that, to me, that I would pay $20 more for the hardware if it came packaged with this software or the equivalent.  Since it didn't and doesn't, I was merely sharing my opinion that if it did, I would pay for it.  I believe that's germane to the topic as someone else mentioned broached that topic.

I don't think your two biggest customers are relevant in this discussion.  They don't use the hardware in the same capacity that we do.  Obviously, it's apples to oranges.  My point about the router/tomato is that a third party developed an application that went beyond what the developer did.  I don't have anecdotal evidence to support my idea that third party software that is specially designed for such products enhances the relative value of the product and adds to the sales.  But I don't think any one can dispute that having an outstanding and high quality piece of software does, in fact, add value to the hardware.  I'm not saying you supported it, asked for it, or _______.  It's simply an opinion that I think has a basis in fact.

i apologize for the misunderstanding.

still some of my post relates to what others have said in the thread

No need to apologize.  And I could see that you were responding to others.  Thanks for not getting worked up about the Ummon comment.  It was meant as a joke.  

EDIT:   RandyT said $30, I thought someone said $20.  I'd pay $30 (Arzoo, don't get mad if I send just $20!  ).

[kronic24601]

One of the things that has seriously frustrated me as a newer member to the Mame community has been all the dropped support on misc software, services, or even hardware development. Often times members create some new thing that is helpful for a time, then as things get busy, they sort of just drop the project... thus making it irrelevant. Vendors go out of business, and others stop being able to provide cool services. This is will ALWAYS be the case when it comes to free stuff or even low margin products/services/software.

There are so many awesome developers that worked on their misc projects because it was their hobby and it was fun. Yes, extremely time intensive ... but they didn't do it for the money. Even if there was money involved I can't imagine it was worth what they could make on other projects.

I've never even used LEDBlinky but I paid the $20 right away. Why? Because if that's what it will take to keep Arzoo supporting the software than so BE it! I'm in full support, just stay involved ... please for the love of God ... don't go! It's the same reason I pay for FTP access and cool transitions for Hyperspin. I want the project to keep evolving.

As for the other issue, without knowing the full back story to all the vendor vs. developer drama, what I do know is this. Andy and Randy although do compete on many levels in the hardware biz (and I'm sure things can get heated at times), they BOTH provide a very useful service to this community. I for one have bought many things from both of them (to spread the love  ). The reality is though even though I end up spending a ton of cash, for these short run, small quantity kind of orders I cannot imagine they (either) are raking in tons of cash. If either one would decide to close up shop I can guarantee that the entire arcade community would feel the effects.

My two cents? Randy (or any vendor) is probably just doing what he can to keep a business running, clearly any additional cost he pays to support other software developers (which is an option) would come as a cost passed on directly to the buyers. The real question then becomes, can it still be sold for the quantity that makes any of this nearly worthwhile? Maybe the answer is no ... I'm not sure, but it is a realistic business consideration. Bottom line is that any Vendor needs to make a profit and at the same time be able to offer a quality product to a community for a reasonable price ... that's business.

However, all that being said, perhaps there is an opportunity for (in this case I'll pick on Randy) to lump in a limited version on LEDBlinky with the LED-Wiz, charge an extra $5 (just picking a number here, deal would have to be worked out with Arzoo) ... the idea would be that since Arzoo will get $5 on every LED-WIZ, it would be about the same as the $20 every 1-in-4 people will pay?? Just a thought though... once again, it's a business strategy that both parties would need to like, and would be beneficial to both. ... but now I'm just rambling.

[Ond]

   sorry, please continue

[ryantheleach]

strange ideas people are having.

ANYONE thinking that randy should have to pay people to make supporting software outside simple drivers and dll's to drive the thing and keep the cost of the device the same is nuts.


just look at the apple iphone.

apple release the product, a basic OS, with enough framework to let software developers get busy.
if the software developers release the app for free, everyone wins.
if software developers decide to charge for the app, apple take 30% of all sales.

Now i'm not saying apples way of doing things is right or fair, its just a business model.

but on the other hand there ARE people who get an iphone because its "hip and cool" and never use the apps.
so should these apps come as standard? of course not.
im sure theres customers of randy who dont even use this thing for arcade machines or mame, just people who want an easy output from a pc for some project or other during prototype phase.