stupid pit bulls

[bfauska]

---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, now I have to rethink my stance on this.  I seem to largely agree with Tommy and that can't be right. 

Follow. But. Follow only if ye be men of valour, for the entrance to this cave is guarded by a creature so foul, so cruel that no man yet has fought with it and lived. Bones of full fifty men lie strewn about its lair. So, brave knights, if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for death awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy teeth.

I am off to see Spamalot later tonight, I hope I make it out alive if they have a live evil rabbit.

[tommy]

---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, now I have to rethink my stance on this.  I seem to largely agree with Tommy and that can't be right. 

Oh it's right buddy, you better believe it. 

If some of you don't get the message... i say what i feel and say what i think, it may not be the best analogy but you get the idea.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

dogs are fascists too, never seen a police cat.

YOU ARE TOTALLY RIGHT!!   

[danny_galaga]

on my postal round there are quite a few agro dogs. most of them just enjoy something to do, but a few seem genuinely viscious. the other day the gate was wide open at a place with a viscious dog and the *&!#%$# came right at me- and then stopped where the gate would be and kept barking! ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?---...

[ChadTower]

It seems like this would solve most of the problems. 

It wouldn't solve a thing.  The pit bulls that attack are unlicensed, often loose, living in completely unsuitable locations.  How would a law requiring anything solve that when the owners don't follow the existing laws?

tommy, answer this question:

How do you ban bad owners?

[polaris]

It seems like this would solve most of the problems. 

It wouldn't solve a thing.  The pit bulls that attack are unlicensed, often loose, living in completely unsuitable locations.  How would a law requiring anything solve that when the owners don't follow the existing laws?

tommy, answer this question:

How do you ban bad owners?

didnt you get the message chad, you put them in jail with all the black people tommy mentioned
nice reference btw tom

[ChadTower]

I guess so.  This is one of those "crimes" I'd really like to see preempted rather than punished after the fact.  You only have to witness one bad dog attack to understand why.  I'm usually the first person to stand up for personal freedoms and accountability but this is a case where that just doesn't work.

[Jeff AMN]

Here's my dog, by the way. We adopted him from a local shelter (he had been seriously abused).



"I've never bit anybody, but if they shove one more stupid thing in my mouth for another photo op...I just might."

[ChadTower]

When I was a kid my cousin adopted a pair of dogs much like that one... they were only a few months old and had already been abused so freakin' badly that they'd go all fetal and whine loudly if anyone even went near them.  They did eventually live a happy life but neither of them ever really got over the "if he raises is hand too fast I'm going to get hurt" view of the world.

[mountain]

If all pitbulls are man-eating dogs then all black people love to rob and steal. It's a silly thing to think let alone post on a forum.

HUH?!? 

How about this one: Remember when the Ford Explorer had the recall on the tires because they were failing and causing accidents that killed a “few” people? Odds are I wouldn’t have had a fatal accident, but I sure didn’t think twice about replacing them for a more reliable tire. Not worth the risk.

I let my kids (13 and 10) play with firecrackers on the Fourth of July, (with supervision) knowing that there is a remote chance they could get hurt. I would never do the same with a stick of dynamite though.

Pit Bulls should be illegal to own, and breed. Who would this hurt anyway?

[tommy]

You can take any dog and leave it outside with no food or water for days and abuse the dog and it will react the same as any pit bull.

Why should i have to suffer when you guys want to outlaw these dogs when I'm responsible with the breed and understand how to treat them and train them so they can act like any other fun loving dog you see everyday?  These dogs are the smartest dogs I've ever been around when you treat them well.

I think the main reason dogs act badly is when they are left outside for long periods of time with nothing to do and they forget how to interact with anything that comes near it.

[bfauska]

If all pitbulls are man-eating dogs then all black people love to rob and steal. It's a silly thing to think let alone post on a forum.

HUH?!? 

How about this one: Remember when the Ford Explorer had the recall on the tires because they were failing and causing accidents that killed a “few” people? Odds are I wouldn’t have had a fatal accident, but I sure didn’t think twice about replacing them for a more reliable tire. Not worth the risk.

I let my kids (13 and 10) play with firecrackers on the Fourth of July, (with supervision) knowing that there is a remote chance they could get hurt. I would never do the same with a stick of dynamite though.

Pit Bulls should be illegal to own, and breed. Who would this hurt anyway?

Should we make dynamite (or other high-explosives) completely un-available and dispose of every piece left, or continue allowing people who know how to use it responsibly to have access to it and use it when appropriate?

I do see the similarity, between the dynamite/firecracker analogy to the dog debate, but I have a strong opinion against rules that treat symptoms instead of causes.

[Jeff AMN]

You can take any dog and leave it outside with no food or water for days and abuse the dog and it will react the same as any pit bull.

Why should i have to suffer when you guys want to outlaw these dogs when I'm responsible with the breed and understand how to treat them and train them so they can act like any other fun loving dog you see everyday?  These dogs are the smartest dogs I've ever been around when you treat them well.

I think the main reason dogs act badly is when they are left outside for long periods of time with nothing to do and they forget how to interact with anything that comes near it.

I don't buy it. The same dog that about ripped my friend's face off was a pampered, well-trained, indoor dog. The thing just snapped, plain and simple.

[shmokes]

The dynamite thing is kind of funny, cos it just so happens that dynamite is regulated in a way similar to what I laid out above.  People can use it, but it has strict liability.  It doesn't matter if you know, or should have known that it was going to cause some crazy ass damage.

And Chad, the difference is the criminal penalties.  Owning a pitbull without liability insurance would be illegal.  People would get away with it all the time, but when people started doing six months in jail after their pitbull bit someone, you can bet they'd never own another pitbull again.  And neither would their friends, I'd wager.  And the people who did have them would be damned careful about keeping them out of trouble.  It would have some effect.  What is the alternative?  Banning all pitbulls?  Perspective!  Start with alcohol.  It causes a helluva lot more violent deaths than pit bulls do.  More per capita too, I'd wager.  The vast majority of pit bulls are just well behaved dogs.  Tommy's right about them being smart (though they've got nothing on border collies).  It just don't make sense to ban pit bulls outright because you can't keep yourself from watching the 10:00 news.  It is not the crisis that your local news station would like you to think it is.

[tommy]

You can take any dog and leave it outside with no food or water for days and abuse the dog and it will react the same as any pit bull.

Why should i have to suffer when you guys want to outlaw these dogs when I'm responsible with the breed and understand how to treat them and train them so they can act like any other fun loving dog you see everyday?  These dogs are the smartest dogs I've ever been around when you treat them well.

I think the main reason dogs act badly is when they are left outside for long periods of time with nothing to do and they forget how to interact with anything that comes near it.

I don't buy it. The same dog that about ripped my friend's face off was a pampered, well-trained, indoor dog. The thing just snapped, plain and simple.

People act crazy and kill all the time.

We don't put all people in jail when a few get out of control. You need to act accordingly on a case by case basis just like anything else.

[mountain]

Acting accordingly after the Pit Bull nearly rips off the face of small child doesn't seam to be the answer. You cannot prevent an animal like that from attacking. All you can do is minimize the probability. Is it really worth it?

I find it hard to believe that one would suffer from not being able to have a Pit Bull. I think a person who had a Pit Bulls powerful jaws locked on their head or neck suffered a bit more.

[ChadTower]

And Chad, the difference is the criminal penalties.  Owning a pitbull without liability insurance would be illegal.  People would get away with it all the time, but when people started doing six months in jail after their pitbull bit someone, you can bet they'd never own another pitbull again.

Laws only apply to people who follow laws.  I'm not interested in punishing the violators.  I'm interested in preventing the attacks.

tommy, show me an instance of a dog like shown above going into such a rage, unprovoked, that it mauls a pony to death.  That happened here two years ago.  Sure, any abused dog is going to be a problem, but there are only two or three that can kill with ease.

[ahofle]

Why should i have to suffer when you guys want to outlaw these dogs

Suffer?  Does your pitbull provide you with any more dog ownership satisfaction than any other breed?  I just don't understand why anyone would oppose the stoppage of pitbull breeding. 

[tommy]

You people don't have the right to decide what's right for other people. If you don't want a pit bull then don't have one, that's the only choice you can make.

There are irresponsible people in this world and there is little to nothing you can do about it. Some people let their dog get to a point that it becomes a danger to the public. Some people own guns and play around with them and end up shooting them self in the foot. Some people beat their kids and they end up growing up with low self esteem and are insecure their whole life.

I don't know what to tell you, all i can say is that we can't take only the bad examples of things and think that's the only way it is.

[ChadTower]

You people don't have the right to decide what's right for other people. If you don't want a pit bull then don't have one, that's the only choice you can make.

And you have the right to decide it is right to put your neighbors at risk? 

Stop comparing pit bulls to guns.  Guns don't run away and shoot people on their own. 

[tommy]

You have no more need to worry about my dog then you do a well behaved poodle. Even so, my dog is always in the house except when he has to go out, he is even supervised when he does his deed and then he's back inside. There is no time when he is not watched by me.

I would do this if he was any kind of dog because dogs have no reason to be wandering around on their own without a responsible person nearby, just like you would do with a child.

[mountain]

When a Pit Bull snaps, it can and will break free from its owner, jump a fence, etc. I'm not saying that the authorities should come to your house and destroy your dog. I would like to see the following:

• Have a registration for existing owners so they can be tracked
• Destroy any Pit Bull where the history is unknown
• Have current owners sign a contract stating they understand the law (state laws vary, Ohio law states that Pit Bulls must be contained indoors or in a covered cage when outside, as well as some type of liability insurance I believe) and that a pre-determined penalty (hopefully severe) will be incurred if the dog creates any type of injury to a human or other animal
• Ban Pit Bulls
  
  Eventually the breed would go away.
  
  EDIT - spelling
  
  

[tommy]

I'd rather people who are ignorant and have a closed mind go away.

[bfauska]

Just out of curiosity, how often do you think "pit bull" attacks are actually the act of verifiable Pit Bulls.

How long does it take you to [urlhttp://www.understand-a-bull.com/Findthebull/findpitbull_v3.html]find the Pit Bull in this quiz?[/url]  Now, how many people do you think accurately identify the dog that bit them?  Or even with the owners input if the dog is a mixed breed or rescue from a shelter how often do you think the owner accurately knows the dog is a Pit Bull?

[polaris]

dunno,
my daughters mothers family have jack russels and i didnt like them being around her when she was little, but at no point could those dogs have got her whole ---smurfing--- head in their mouths unlike a pit bull, which lets not forget is specifically bred to kill other dogs

[ChadTower]

"I keep my pit bulls in the house."

Yeah, that sounds like a good healthy life for a large active dog.

And BTW, even a small dog can get through a screen when it's angry.  A couple of years ago, during trick or treating, a small terrier tore through the storm door screen on one house and jumped right on my son.  Ripped his costume clear off and tore his shirt.  I had to kick the thing hard to get it off.  That was a 15lb dog.  Do you really think a screen would hold a pit bull?

Every time I have ever seen a person bit by a dog it was preceded by the owner saying exactly what tommy just said.  "My dog doesn't bite / my dog is perfectly safe / there is no need to worry about my dog."  I've found the only time people ever say that is when they're actually unsure about it.  People who are sure don't feel the need to reassure themselves.

[tommy]

Nothing is going to change some of our minds about this breed.

For those of you who are following this thread i ask who are you going to believe, a bunch of people who do not own the dog and are forming an opinion from a few horror stories, or a guy who owns the dog and really knows how they act on a day to day basis. It's a pretty obvious answer there.


Many of you are in no position to even be commenting on this breed with the little to no first hand info you have on these dogs. All you can say is, i knew a friend or, i heard a story when....

There are no facts involved in your opinions at all, all you know is something bit someone somewhere and you have no facts or details about it, oh and, someone mentioned pit bull at the time. 

[ChadTower]

I have first hand experience with pit bulls.  I've seen what they can do when enraged.  If anything, the media doesn't get that across enough.

[tommy]

I'll try to say this for the last time and maybe this will make some sense to you now.

Crazy man, does crazy things.

Good man, does good things.

Crazy dog, does crazy things.

Good dog, does good things.


It's that simple.


I guess me having my pit bull for over 8 years with not one time where he bit me or anyone else, or showed aggression towards anyone is what, luck? How do you explain this? I'm not dead and i have not been mauled and will never be.

Either my dog training worked or i have the only dog sent from heaven that is a safe dog.

[ChadTower]

And yet there are many instance of good pit bull snaps for "no visible reason".  Sure, it happens with other dogs, but other dogs don't kill people when it happens.  So are all of those owners lying when they say they treated the dog well and they don't understand why the dog went nuts one day?

I would not allow your dog around my kids or my house no matter what its history.

[tommy]

And yet there are many instance of good pit bull snaps for "no visible reason". 

The dog was not trained right or at all. Most people don't know how to train a dog. Training a dog is not getting him to give you his paw and sit, so now that means he has been trained? Nope.  Trust me, if these dogs were trained they would not be acting this way.

You should invest some time in the show "The Dog Whisperer" and you will learn alot. Then come back and talk to me.

[lokki]

Fact:  There are more Golden Retriever bites reported each year than Pit Bull bites,  they aren't as dramatic so they don't get news coverage...

So?  How many of the Golden Retriever injuries are permanent and debilitating?  We're not talking about bites.  We're talking about attacks.  How many golden retrievers are there in comparison?  Find a per animal type stat and it will mean something.  What % of pit bulls attack vs what % of golden retrievers?

...I don't own a Bull Terrier nor am I interested in owning one but to label the entire breed as "evil" is ludicrous.  It's the owners who are the asshats.

Most Severe Bites By Breed. (Chow Chow and Golden Retriever are at the top)

http://www.dapbt.org/bite_statistics_study.htm

But to be fair
Pit bulls take the lead on Fatalities.

http://enhs.umn.edu/6120/bites/dogbitefatal.html

[ChadTower]

The dog was not trained right or at all. Most people don't know how to train a dog. Training a dog is not getting him to give you his paw and sit, so now that means he has been trained? Nope.  Trust me, if these dogs were trained they would not be acting this way.

You should invest some time in the show "The Dog Whisperer" and you will learn alot. Then come back and talk to me.

When I was a kid my family bred and trained hunting dogs.  Duck tollers.  There is a breed/type that is universally credited as having been developed by my great grandfather and we were still breeding and training them when I was a kid.  I have a lot of experience training dogs.  Dozens of them.

I agree that most dogs are very poorly trained.  That is not usually the issue when a normally docile dog snaps viciously for no reason.  That's just the dog having a mind of its own that we don't have insight into.  A single bite is bad training.  A sustained attack, which is usually the case with pit bulls, is the dog being independent and proper training isn't going to prevent that.  It reduces the risk but you cannot eliminate the nature of a breed.

lokki, you know why pit bulls aren't on that list?  They don't bite.  They attack.  There is a difference.  A bite is like a punch... an attack is beating the piss out of someone.

[tommy]

You can prevent attacks from even getting into the dogs mind. I trained my dog since he was 6 weeks old, it's not in his nature anymore.

A junkie would reach for a needle out of habit or from that's all he knows. Would you do that if you never had the chance to try it? Same difference. You wouldn't know or care what it's all about if you never had the chance. Same thing with dogs and attacking. It was stopped from day one and it is no longer a part of his brain.

I had my dog around an aggressive Shepard, the Shepard was not trained well and he was all up in my dogs face growling and just way too close it would seem to be in a pits face, but my dog would not do a thing, nothing wrong was going on in his mind to make him act any differently.

Trust me man, you think i wold have this dog in my house if i was not sure about him.

[shardian]

My neighbor has a Pitt Bull...well it appears he has two now. Anyways, it is close to a year old, and it is a very sweet dog. It plays with their little boy and is super gentle with him, even though the kid is pretty much beating the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of the dog. I can't help but feel uneasy around that dog, because you never know what will set it off. There is no leash law in my area, and the dog just hangs around the block.

I understand the fact that any dog can snap, but there are two things that make Pitt Bulls a special case.
1. A normal breed of dog usually is set of for a reason. Pitts can just go.
2. When a normal dog snaps, odds are you can defend yourself, or get out with minor injuries. When a pit snaps, you are almost guaranteed to be severely injured - maybe even killed.

Needless to say, I like the people, but will be glad when they move and take their "nice" dog out of my neighborhood and far away from my little girl in about a year. If a loose Pit bull - or any dog for that matter - ever harmed my kid and I happened to know whose dog it was, that person is gonna feel the pain ten fold.

[lokki]

lokki, you know why pit bulls aren't on that list?  They don't bite.  They attack.  There is a difference.  A bite is like a punch... an attack is beating the piss out of someone.

Not sure I agree, I agree more with the theory that when they do attack they are very good at it.

I would more worried about  being bitten by a Rottweiler (more likely) than being killed by a Pit Bull (less likely to happen).

[ChadTower]

Rottweilers definitely have a worse record but they can stop themselves.  They have a middle ground - a bite and back off - that the pit bull just doesn't have.  When a pit bull goes it goes all out - you have to injure or kill it to stop it.

Man, I don't know how I'd handle a loose pit bull around the block.  I feel for you on that one.  I'd probably be harrassing selectmen to enact at least a leash/enclosure law on dangerous breeds, and if there is no dangerous breed distinction, I'd be lobbying for that too.

tommy, I trust that you believe what you say.  I would never trust that the dog actually is as safe as you believe.  No one wants to believe their dog can harm someone.  Every animal, people included, have a basic nature.  You can train that animal to suppress certain parts of it but it is never truly gone.  Any competent trainer would tell you this straight out - don't ever expect training to fully eliminate the nature of the beast.  It just happens that part of the basic nature of a pit bull is extreme violence.  Not all of it but it is there and it will always be there no matter how well you train the dog.

[ahofle]

Instinct cannot be 'untrained' in one animal's lifetime. 
You may well have a well-trained pit bull that will never snap, but using your own logic how can that possibly translate into all other pit bulls not being dangerous?  You're telling everyone not to make blanket statements about pit bulls, and then use your one example to make a blanket statement that they are not dangerous dogs.

[ChadTower]

The thing that scares most people about pit bulls is the random nature of how they snap - you don't know why it happens.  They don't attack their owners or people they are familiar with (most of the time).  It will happen when you're walking down the street and some person passes by... the dog will just go off and start mauling the person.  Maybe the person has the scent of another dog on him, maybe the person is giving off a confusing scent himself, but you just don't know why it happens. 

[shardian]

Man, I don't know how I'd handle a loose pit bull around the block.  I feel for you on that one.  I'd probably be harrassing selectmen to enact at least a leash/enclosure law on dangerous breeds, and if there is no dangerous breed distinction, I'd be lobbying for that too.

I live in a subdivision with a homeowners association. A few of us have discussed the loose dogs with the President, and it basically comes down to this: Since a leash ordinance was not in the original Association rules, it will be near impossible to add it because 75% of the homeowners would have to show up and vote on it. We barely get 20-25 people to show up for the annual meeting to vote and set fees.

And yeah, the guy is like most Pit Bull owners. he just doesn't fathom why people would be uncomfortable with a Pit bull running around unchecked.

Side story, we did have one dog in the neighborhood that was territorial and aggressive to passersby. He was a mix breed, but I could see some rott in him.  He almost attacked me on the way to the mailbox when we first moved there. I brought this up to the owner one day hoping he would get the hint that an aggressive dog should be on a leash. His response: "eh, he's a good dog once you get to know him. Just call him by name sternly when he growls and approaches." What a ---smurfing--- tard ass. Does he not realize that if the wrong person walks by and smells a lawsuit, they will sue his ass after getting attacked? Anyways, I did eventually earn the dogs trust and even got the point he'd walk up wagging his tail and let me pet him. Still, he bit some lady one day that didn't know how to respect his turf. As the president of the HOA said, he just "disappeared" one day after that.