what do you nerds do for living? - discuss career possibilities

[SNAAKE]

you may be asking why now? because now I am legally allowed to work in the US thats why lol. so what does everyone here do for living? right now I sell things on ebay and going to college but dont really know what I wanna do. possible interest.

graphic design - is this in demand? average wage? work is fun I know that. it gets annoying when its not your own project but I can hold my own and get things done.

computer repair guy - whats the correct term? I can build/fix computers and would consider as a job.

web design/flash and html - this is fun too. not sure about demand or wages.

software tester - this "sounds" very promising but also too good to be true. this school here trying to convince me that I after 3 months(2 days a week and 7 hour class each day) training I can become a professional software tester and make 80k year(hahahaha this dude is out of his mind). does it make any sense at all? I am willing to start with half that as I gain more experience.

game tester/developer - anyone here in the gaming industry? how the jesus do you get this business? I know you probably need associate or bachelors and experience with animation or whatever. is this worth going after??

[DaOld Man]

I am an electrician. I have been working as residential and industrial electrician for 32 years now (man I am old).
I have been in an aluminum rolling mill now for 22 years.
I work with PLCs, computers, and some fairly high tech toys.
I also do some "grunt" work, but that's mostly for the younger guys.
I have had about 5 college classes over the years, but went straight to work after high school.
I did have 2 years industrial electricity (trade school) in high school.
It took me a while to get to the pay grade I am at now, but it is over 60K. (with a moderate amount of overtime.)
I knew I wanted to work with electricity since the 4th grade.
I just wish someone had kicked my rearo and made me go to college after high school.
I would have made it to this point a lot faster with an engineers degree.

[hypernova]

I work in a manufacturing warehouse.  Been there for 10 years (shortly after high school.)  We play Wii on breaks.  I am taking classes for psychology at Miami University part time.

I think everyone should hold a blue collar job at some point in their life, just to see and understand how the average man works, and to gain an appreciation for a good work ethic.  You get that by working in non-union places, with older generations.

[saint]

I run a web site. I make tens of dollars a year.

[SNAAKE]

^ lol..

what do you REALLY do though?

[ahofle]

game tester/developer - anyone here in the gaming industry? how the jesus do you get this business? I know you probably need associate or bachelors and experience with animation or whatever. is this worth going after??

"tighten up the graphics"

 

[danny_galaga]

<---------

it's a living 

[csa3d]

you may be asking why now? because now I am legally allowed to work in the US thats why lol. so what does everyone here do for living? right now I sell things on ebay and going to college but dont really know what I wanna do. possible interest.

game tester/developer - anyone here in the gaming industry? how the jesus do you get this business? I know you probably need associate or bachelors and experience with animation or whatever. is this worth going after??

I am an animator in the games industry.  Have been doing that now for 8 years.  While you don't "need" a college degree to get into the industry, it's difficult to know all the things you are supposed to just know on your own.  Some do it that way, but many more seek higher education.  When I left high school, I looked into colleges with a 4 year degree in computer graphics and had animation as well.  Out of the tiny selection at the time, I choose to go to Ringling College in Florida.  There are many more schools that teach computer animation and even some specializing in Gaming Degrees.  Southern Methodist University has a program they call the "Guildhall", which is a pretty good way to go as well.  A word to the wise, don't look into that school that wants you to tighten up the graphics; it's laughable at best.  You want a school taught by folks who actually make games.

For the record, this career is a lot of fun, but it's a lot of hours and hard work to make it.  If you're married, make sure you research that and make sure your family is as committed as yourself.  We also don't sit around playing games all day and get paid.  It's still largely software development.

-csa

[drventure]

I'm a software dev, pretty exclusively commercial software.

I've always been quite partial to VB, so I've worked with msdos bascom, moving to PDS (back in the day) and then to VB1-6 and now mostly VB.NET. I've also done quite a bit of C/C++, x86 asm, and recently been dabbling in javascript, php, and flash.

I think that's why working on this cab has been so much fun, it'd good to do something +non-virtual+ for a change!

[HaRuMaN]

Aerospace engineer.   

[ChadTower]

For the record, this career is a lot of fun, but it's a lot of hours and hard work to make it.  If you're married, make sure you research that and make sure your family is as committed as yourself. 

Quoted, bolded, and italicized for total effin truth.  I majored in cmpsci to get into that field and veered away from it after seeing firsthand what it did to family life.  If you want any sort of life outside of your job game development may be the wrong field for you.  Look up the current class action lawsuits against EA for proof or really any book on the history of video game development.  The guys I spent time with were all averaging 80 hour weeks, often 10-15 days straight before a day off, and were all either not married (and had no woman) or were divorced.

Oh, and they were usually making 75% of what guys with equivalent skills in other app development areas make.

[dcchau]

i am working on my accounting information system degree right now. you may be interested in that. ideally its a slice of accounting and management information system.  you keep  business  records and  maintain its accounting system. This includes the purchase, sales, and other financial processes of the business. i am leading towards the security side.

[Paul Olson]

I am currently working on a Computer Engineering degree. My school offers a game emphasis for this major, and I am going to take it. I discussed it with my adviser and mentioned that I probably would not want to actually program games for a living, but I want to learn how so I can try to write small games on my own. He told me to go ahead, if I don't go into games professionally, no one will ever care about the emphasis area. I am leaning toward trying to develop new game controllers. My school is doing quite a bit of research in that - if you have heard of Blind Hero (guitar hero controller for the blind), it was made at school. I am hoping to find something that I really enjoy doing. I am finishing up my core and math classes this summer, so it should be all fun classes from here on; Computer Science, Computer Engineering, and Electrical Engineering. My fall schedule seems like it will be a blast, albeit a ton of work. I am taking my 3rd c++ class, and this one will hopefully teach me enough to actually write something interesting. I am taking a microcontroller class, so I will learn a little 8051 and ARM assembly, and we will also be using and FPGA. on the EE side, I get to take my first circuits class. Probably my least favorite will be a networking class, but I hoping I will find it interesting because it is probably one of the better areas for a job. To round out my schedule, I have my first Game Dev class.

I switched to Computer Engineering last semester after discovering that I had no interest whatsoever in Civil Engineering. Try to find a career that you are interested in! I was in Civil because I thought it would be easier to find a job, but I was dreading school, let alone the next 30 years of work. Now that I am where I think I belong on the computer side, I am really looking forward to school and my future career. It is a lot harder, and sometimes I get the feeling that my brain is slowing a bit (I will be 40 almost 40 when I graduate in a couple of years), but I am really enjoying the challenge. Except for calculus, I struggled through all three semesters . I think calculus is pretty easy to understand, but the algebra I learned and loved in the 80s has largely been forgotten. That made it really rough to actually get to the calculus part.

I am definitely listening to all of the people warning of the time commitment in Game Dev, but I am keeping the option open. I am really leaning toward the hardware side, but I will know more by the end of the next semester since I will finally get into the topics deep enough to decide where my strengths and weaknesses are.

If you decide to go to school, which I would recommend - it may not be absolutely necessary, but it surely cannot hurt - do not expect to be an expert when you finish. You will definitely be entry level and will still have a ton to learn. There are just too many topics to cover, and it looks like all you can hope to get is an intro to each during a 4 year degree. I have taken 2 programming classes so far, and received As in both, but I still do not really know how to write a program. I can write the simple stuff we did in class, but as soon as I try to do something that would actually be useful in the real world, I realize how little I know. This is where the coders will start off with an advantage over the college grads, there is no substitute for experience. I think I am learning the fundamentals better though - at least I better be! Two semesters, and they will still not let us use the string or template libraries.

Good luck! Find something you enjoy. I go to school with quite a few people who have given up 6 figure incomes to try to find something they enjoy doing. You are going to spend a huge portion of your life on your career, as someone who has wasted a couple of decades doing jobs that I hated, I can say with certainty that it is not worth it.

[Hockeyboy]

I work at Intel Corporation, inside a cleanroom, where we put on the final three circuit layers of today's high-tech CPUs, including the Core 2 Duo line, the Core 2 Quad, and the newer Core i7 family. To get a job like this you need a minimum of 2 years of college with a technical degree or military electronics experience, be able to multi-task, and be open to lots and lots of changes that happen from hour to hour. We are much like an assembly line at a car manufacturing plant but our tools have all kinds of quirks and inherent problems that we are always trying to correct.

Oh, and Intel, along with other companies that do this, usually work 12-hour shifts on a compressed work week, meaning you work 3 days one week with 4 days off, then 4 days the next week with 3 days off.

And, yes, I get to see the next generation of product before it's announced in the press, but we're not allowed to tell anyone what we are about to introduce. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Officially, I'm the CTO ... but that role consumes a relatively small portion of my time. I do a lot of coding for prototypes and system design work, which subsequently gets fed to the official coding team if it requires refinement or extension. So, I more of a rogue codemonkey than anything else.

Originally, I was trained in Statistics and Actuarial Science but made a choice to change 10 years ago when it looked like I would have to work 70 hour weeks and travel 4-5 days a week in order to progress while continuing to do "cool" work. So, now I put in 70 hour weeks and 4-5 days of travel a year. The upside is that my schedule is completely flexible (I telecommute), I get to keep the lion's share of the profits (depending on how much I have to pay the coding team to clean up after me) and can mold my hours around time spent with the kids and the occasional good night's sleep.

Having said that, I'm not sure I have any career advice that is worth anything in the general sense -- I got into an industry, pushed my way into as many facets of the industry as I could (talked to people, asked to observe executive meetings, volunteered for industry committees, wrote articles for industry publications), looked for weaknesses, saw an opportunity and took a chance. I'd do it again (am doing it now), but none of that has anything to do with credentials, education or getting that first job.

Good luck in whatever you choose.

[RayB]

Snake, do what you really enjoy [that you can get paid for]. In the end, that's all that matters, assuming you're not short-changing yourself. You seem all over the map, considering artistic and logic/programming options. Which is it buddy? 

[HaRuMaN]

JACK-of-All-tradeS-maSter-of-none

[Franco B]

Aerospace engineer.  

+1

[HaRuMaN]

Aerospace engineer.  

+1

Oh, you too?  Cool.  What do you do?  I'm in commercial propulsion.

[JeepMonkey]

I am basically an Electrical Engineer that gets some electrician experience.  I design electrical systems sometimes, but my main tasks are programming and field testing industrial controllers (PLCs) and GUI packages for power plants.  If you think a mame cab has a lot of inputs and outputs, try a project with over 2000.

[AtomSmasher]

For the record, this career is a lot of fun, but it's a lot of hours and hard work to make it.  If you're married, make sure you research that and make sure your family is as committed as yourself. 

Quoted, bolded, and italicized for total effin truth.  I majored in cmpsci to get into that field and veered away from it after seeing firsthand what it did to family life.  If you want any sort of life outside of your job game development may be the wrong field for you.  Look up the current class action lawsuits against EA for proof or really any book on the history of video game development.  The guys I spent time with were all averaging 80 hour weeks, often 10-15 days straight before a day off, and were all either not married (and had no woman) or were divorced.

Oh, and they were usually making 75% of what guys with equivalent skills in other app development areas make.

I'm now 4-5 months into a game developement job and that info is basically correct, except that its usually only the last few months of a project that have crazy hours.  We're now a month away from when my first game is finished, and it's only been about a month of absurd hours (which is why you rarely see me on these boards anymore).  However, before the crunch, it was a fairly standard 40-50 hour work week, although I'm sure this depends on which game company you work for.  Currently I'm working 6 days a week, 10-14 hour days, but at the end I'll have a game I can be proud of, which makes it all worth it.

Basically, if you're not passionate about gaming, then don't bother trying to get into this field. 
On a side note, I get one day off tommorrow to go to my first E3 *jumps up and down like a giddy schoolgirl*

[Kevin Mullins]

Aerospace engineer.  

+1

Oh, you too?  Cool.  What do you do?  I'm in commercial propulsion.

Sorry, but that just tickled me.   

"Aerospace Engineer" being one of them soooooo broad titles that such questions need to be asked. No offense mind ya, I have an Aviation background.....but there too have seen one end of the spectrum to the other.

[YoGaBaR]

I have a BBA in MIS. I work a LUMBER YARD not a mill. I handle wood all day . Also get to drive a forklift and a big flat bed truck. I know it sounds gloryous, but, I agree physical labor keeps a man honest. I would like to think I get paid than a person at McD's but I wonder sometimes. I do get to work outside and meet different people all the time. Its the summer months so we are getting busy might have an opening if you are interested .
PS
Its a way better job than an aerospace engineer.

[RayB]

I'm now 4-5 months into a game developement job and that info is basically correct, except that its usually only the last few months of a project that have crazy hours.  We're now a month away from when my first game is finished, and it's only been about a month of absurd hours (which is why you rarely see me on these boards anymore).  However, before the crunch, it was a fairly standard 40-50 hour work week, although I'm sure this depends on which game company you work for.  Currently I'm working 6 days a week, 10-14 hour days, but at the end I'll have a game I can be proud of, which makes it all worth it.

Here's the thing. You THINK you only have a few months of crunch, until the end nears and it becomes more and more obvious that the schedule is shot and it won't happen. So then you guys are still "crunching" past that point for months, maybe even stretching into a year or more.

I also laugh at your "fairly standard 40-50 hour work week". You do realize fairly standard is 35-40 hrs.  Think about this, if you make $50,000 a yr, working 35 hrs a week, it's like $27.47/hr.  Whereas working 50 hrs per week, you're making $19.23 /hr.

Anyways, enjoy it while you can. I wouldn't go back to that kind of torture.  

[mccoy178]

I'm a shop teacher and I can't believe I get paid to do it.  It is the most wonderful job I have ever had.  I agree about doing some blue collar work before doing anything else.  Some of my coworkers make me wonder................

[wachin]

My brother worked for Atari/ Infogrames as a full time game tester.  It was mainly playing the games looking for bugs.  It was a pretty basic entry level job and from his stories, it wasn't as glamourous as one would think.  8 hours a day playing video games that you have to play makes you lose the desire to play the games you want to play.  Plus he didn't really play games through.  They were given codes to access specific levels/ stages for whatever was slated to be tested that day.

The busiest season were the months leading up to Christmas as that was the big push for releases.  And it got tiring for him to be playing crappy video game conversions of board games.  Every so often he would play a big name game, but then again it was always only a portion of the game.  Come to think of it, I can't even recall what those games were.  Plus the pay was barely above minimum wage... but then again, he was getting paid to play video games!

[HaRuMaN]

Aerospace engineer.  

+1

Oh, you too?  Cool.  What do you do?  I'm in commercial propulsion.

Sorry, but that just tickled me.   

"Aerospace Engineer" being one of them soooooo broad titles that such questions need to be asked. No offense mind ya, I have an Aviation background.....but there too have seen one end of the spectrum to the other.

Hehe, yeah, it is broad.  I'm in system modeling and analysis- starting and operability.

[AtomSmasher]

I'm now 4-5 months into a game developement job and that info is basically correct, except that its usually only the last few months of a project that have crazy hours.  We're now a month away from when my first game is finished, and it's only been about a month of absurd hours (which is why you rarely see me on these boards anymore).  However, before the crunch, it was a fairly standard 40-50 hour work week, although I'm sure this depends on which game company you work for.  Currently I'm working 6 days a week, 10-14 hour days, but at the end I'll have a game I can be proud of, which makes it all worth it.

Here's the thing. You THINK you only have a few months of crunch, until the end nears and it becomes more and more obvious that the schedule is shot and it won't happen. So then you guys are still "crunching" past that point for months, maybe even stretching into a year or more.

I also laugh at your "fairly standard 40-50 hour work week". You do realize fairly standard is 35-40 hrs.  Think about this, if you make $50,000 a yr, working 35 hrs a week, it's like $27.47/hr.  Whereas working 50 hrs per week, you're making $19.23 /hr.

Anyways, enjoy it while you can. I wouldn't go back to that kind of torture.  

When the entire schedule for the game is 7 months, it's a little unlikely that it will go more then a year over schedule and it looks like we won't be going over schedule at all on our project.  Besides, we currently have 4 games in our company nearing completion and the game I'm working on is the only one where the publisher decided to make drastic changes at the last minute causing us to work massive hours.  None of the other projects are working weekends, but since this is going to be our first Wii title, we want to go the extra mile and make sure its good and the publisher is happy.

And I worked 40-50 hours a week when I was doing real estate appraisals, so that is a normal week for me    The first 2-3 months working here I actually only did work 40 hours a week, it was only as the project milestones became bigger that the hours started creeping up.  Anyways, I did real estate appraisal for 5 years and made much better money doing that then I am now, but now I'm doing something that I actually want to do, which makes a world of a difference.

I remember reading that the average video game programmer leaves the gaming industry within 5 years, which I can understand, but as of right now I'm still loving the job, crazy hours and all, so I guess I'll just have to wait and see if I still love it 5 years from now 

[danny_galaga]

Aerospace engineer.  

+1

Oh, you too?  Cool.  What do you do?  I'm in commercial propulsion.

Sorry, but that just tickled me.   

"Aerospace Engineer" being one of them soooooo broad titles that such questions need to be asked. No offense mind ya, I have an Aviation background.....but there too have seen one end of the spectrum to the other.

Hehe, yeah, it is broad.  I'm in system modeling and analysis- starting and operability.

i STILL don;t know what you do 

[HaRuMaN]

Aerospace engineer.  

+1

Oh, you too?  Cool.  What do you do?  I'm in commercial propulsion.

Sorry, but that just tickled me.   

"Aerospace Engineer" being one of them soooooo broad titles that such questions need to be asked. No offense mind ya, I have an Aviation background.....but there too have seen one end of the spectrum to the other.

Hehe, yeah, it is broad.  I'm in system modeling and analysis- starting and operability.

i STILL don;t know what you do 

It's ok, neither do I, really...  I just make it up as I go along...   

Mostly, I'm a computer geek.  I model turbofan engines based on their thermo qualities, and then simulate their operation across the flight envelope, and look for potential problems.

[ChadTower]

Here's the thing. You THINK you only have a few months of crunch, until the end nears and it becomes more and more obvious that the schedule is shot and it won't happen. So then you guys are still "crunching" past that point for months, maybe even stretching into a year or more.

Truth.

I also laugh at your "fairly standard 40-50 hour work week". You do realize fairly standard is 35-40 hrs.  

I have worked in software dev for companies as large as Cisco and as small as 30 people.  Standard in this field is anywhere from 40-50. 

Think about this, if you make $50,000 a yr, working 35 hrs a week, it's like $27.47/hr.  Whereas working 50 hrs per week, you're making $19.23 /hr.

Actually, a salaried person counts on the company's books for about (salary + 25-45% depending on benefits).  Even just a person carrying a family health plan is often making $1000+/month more than is in their check.  Throw in 401k match, various company paid insurance coverages, smaller services available to the employee (used or not), tuition reimbursements/others, and that person is compensated with a good amount more than what they put down on their taxes.  The further up the chain you go the higher that additional amount becomes.  Those things have to be included in any hourly rate conversion.  It is defintiely not as simple as salary / hours worked.

[HaRuMaN]

Mostly, I'm a computer geek.  I model turbofan engines based on their thermo qualities, and then simulate their operation across the flight envelope, and look for potential problems.

Please oh please don't tell me you work on "space shuttle landing simulators".  I have met 3 people from three different states that all claim they work on that.

Lol, no.  Commercial business jet engines.  Around ~7,000 lbs thrust.

[ChadTower]

Lol, no.  Commercial business jet engines.  Around ~7,000 lbs thrust.

GE?  There's a plant locally that has been making those for quite some time.  I believe they aren't military.

[HaRuMaN]

Lol, no.  Commercial business jet engines.  Around ~7,000 lbs thrust.

GE?  There's a plant locally that has been making those for quite some time.  I believe they aren't military.

Nope, Honeywell

[Samstag]

Mostly, I'm a computer geek.  I model turbofan engines based on their thermo qualities, and then simulate their operation across the flight envelope, and look for potential problems.

Please oh please don't tell me you work on "space shuttle landing simulators".  I have met 3 people from three different states that all claim they work on that.

I work on a Gulfstream II sim that was once used to train a shuttle pilot.  Does that count?  NASA converted a G2 so half the cockpit was instrumented like the shuttle.  He had to get a G2 type rating first and got it in my sim.  Bonus trivia:  John Travolta comes in (usually) once a year to get recertified on the same sim.

I've worked with a guy who worked on a shuttle takeoff sim, for reals.

I guess I'm an aerospace engineer.  My title is Senior Embedded Systems Engineer but I'm more of a general hardware/software flight sim troubleshooter.

[Samstag]

Does John ever ask to fly a DC-3 simulator that uses rockets instead of jet engines?

I'm not aware of any DC-3 sims in existance, so I'd say that's a no.  If he wanted to do that, I'm sure we'd have built it for him by now.  But I'm not privy to his private kinks.  We get his repeat business because we keep him carefully shielded from the unwashed masses (ie: me).

[RayB]

Those things have to be included in any hourly rate conversion.  It is defintiely not as simple as salary / hours worked.

They do if you want to know actual figures. They don't if you're just making the point that there's a big disparity between what you think you earn and actually earn when a salaried job demands long hours.

[Fordman]

My Screename says it all, Ford! I work at the best non-Tax dollar supported Auto company in the United States! I make planetary gear sets (1000 per 8 hour shift, 5 gears per set, so I mill 5000 gears, deburr, wash, gear check for size, tooth height-width ratio), install the gears into the carriers, press fit a pinion to keep the gears in place and allow the gears to spin. Run the competed sets through a quality control test stand (test the gear spin, make sure the pins were pressed in at the correct depth) , then pack into shipping dunnage to be sent to Livonia, Michigan. Sounds like alot because it is a lot. Running 11 machines in my machine center. 

Yes, I am also a PROUD member of the UAW and no, we are not lazy! If we were, then our plant would have closed 2 years ago. I resent the fact that people believe that a Union worker in the U.S. is lazy. Most European and Asian manufacturing workers are Union and they dont get the flack that U.S. & Canadian workers do for belonging to a Union. 

I also love this MAME and jukebox homebrew hobby. It keeps me entertained and me spending money on positive things and not on stupid stuff!

When buying an Auto in the U.S.A. or Canada, buy a better than toyota-honda quality Ford!

 

Fordman

[boykster]

I work in Bioinformatics - it's a blend of molecular biology and software development.  In my current position I run the bioinformatics pipeline for a company that sells a gene expression analysis instrument - similar to a microarray platform but with more flexibility.

Looking for a job?  I have an open position in the greater seattle area for a skilled molecular biologist who has a knack for sequence data, or a software dev who is familiar with genomic / sequence data and custom oligo design.  Anybody interested, send me a PM! 

[AtomSmasher]

Since this is related to what I posted earlier, I figured I would post it here.  I just got back from my first E3 and holy crap was it awesome.  At first I was bummed that I could only go one day, but one day really is enough to see everything you want to see.  Also, it sucked that the power went out after the first hour of Wiebe's Donkey Kong record attempt.  If you watched the first hour of the G4's live coverage, then you might of seen me in the background, just to the left of the sitdown area.  Anyways, after this event I know this is the right industry for me, even though this feeling may disappear after a few years, I at least feel that way for now 

[danny_galaga]

Mostly, I'm a computer geek.  I model turbofan engines based on their thermo qualities, and then simulate their operation across the flight envelope, and look for potential problems.

Please oh please don't tell me you work on "space shuttle landing simulators".  I have met 3 people from three different states that all claim they work on that.

no turbofans on a shuttle 

[danny_galaga]

It's ok, neither do I, really...  I just make it up as I go along...   

Mostly, I'm a computer geek.  I model turbofan engines based on their thermo qualities, and then simulate their operation across the flight envelope, and look for potential problems.

now i have a better picture. So for instance, one of the things you will be determining is the airflow through the engine at various attitudes from say -2 degrees all the way up to stall, or when yawing etc.

[RayB]

My Screename says it all, Ford! I work at the best non-Tax dollar supported Auto company in the United States! I make planetary gear sets (1000 per 8 hour shift, 5 gears per set, so I mill 5000 gears, deburr, wash, gear check for size, tooth height-width ratio), install the gears into the carriers, press fit a pinion to keep the gears in place and allow the gears to spin. Run the competed sets through a quality control test stand (test the gear spin, make sure the pins were pressed in at the correct depth) , then pack into shipping dunnage to be sent to Livonia, Michigan. Sounds like alot because it is a lot. Running 11 machines in my machine center. 

Yes, I am also a PROUD member of the UAW and no, we are not lazy! If we were, then our plant would have closed 2 years ago. I resent the fact that people believe that a Union worker in the U.S. is lazy. Most European and Asian manufacturing workers are Union and they dont get the flack that U.S. & Canadian workers do for belonging to a Union. 

I also love this MAME and jukebox homebrew hobby. It keeps me entertained and me spending money on positive things and not on stupid stuff!

When buying an Auto in the U.S.A. or Canada, buy a better than toyota-honda quality Ford!

 

Fordman

Proud worker you are. Not sure why you need to shill for them though. We just got news we need to ditch our 2001 Focus cuz there's too much wrong with it and it hasn't even reached 100,000 miles yet! Besides mechanical, we also have a problem with paint flaking off it in big chunks. Why doesn't Ford put a good primer coat layer under the top coat?! My 1991 Honda is still running great, and where stones have chipped the paint, I can see a layer of white primer instead of bare-gonna-rust metal like the Focus. Ford cuts corners to keep cost down and then the result is we get what we pay for. Meanwhile you probably get paid crazy money and expect to be set for life when you retire. 

Our local Toyota factory (Ontario, Canada) is not unionized, and they have no shortage of people wanting to work there (even prior to the current economic/work situation this was the case). Great reputation. $25/hr minimum starting wage.

[HaRuMaN]

It's ok, neither do I, really...  I just make it up as I go along...   

Mostly, I'm a computer geek.  I model turbofan engines based on their thermo qualities, and then simulate their operation across the flight envelope, and look for potential problems.

now i have a better picture. So for instance, one of the things you will be determining is the airflow through the engine at various attitudes from say -2 degrees all the way up to stall, or when yawing etc.

Yes.  Similarly, determining the distortion created by angled crosswinds, etc. 

[CheffoJeffo]

When buying an Auto in the U.S.A. or Canada, buy a better than toyota-honda quality Ford!

Where you find such a creature ? 

* CheffoJeffo reminds himself why he drives the non-American-built Ford and trusts the wife and kids' comfort and safety to the American-buildtToyota

[Fordman]

When buying an Auto in the U.S.A. or Canada, buy a better than toyota-honda quality Ford!

Where you find such a creature ? 

* CheffoJeffo reminds himself why he drives the non-American-built Ford and trusts the wife and kids' comfort and safety to the American-buildtToyota

Hey, it's just not me saying the Ford Product is better than Toy-motor and honda

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/quality-ratings-by-category/midsize-car

The Ford Fusion way outscored honda Accord and tied the Camry.

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/quality-ratings-by-category/midsize-multi-activity-vehicle

Looks like Ford tied in this category too! 

Consumer reports wont let me see their report unless I subscribe 

And for safety http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/safercar/menuitem.94b0130be143aeb342252f0835a67789/?vgnextoid=68adf2905bf54110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD

or http://www.iihs.org/ratings/default.aspx Why I dont see the mighty Camry or minivan anywhere on the list! (condesending tone)  Arnt they supposed to be so much safer? Guess not!

More Ford, Lincoln & Mercury products than any other manufacturer!

I see the quality every day. My fellow co-wokers 'get-it' now that their jobs may be gone. Yes, they should have 'gotten-it' years ago, but the outlook wasnt so bleek then. The Blue Oval is making American History. You can be part of the same history story by buying a New Ford! Dont buy from an Asian company when your dollars are needed here at home! When 1 Detroit auto worker losses a job, 12 more in the supply chain loose their jobs too! I put my money where my mouth is! 

*** Not to sound like a hippocrit, but if I lived in Europe, I'd shill for Fiat, Vuxhall or Opel too! Support the home team so they can support YOU! ***

[pinballwizard79]

I sell money that doesnt exist to people who never pay it back.



Edit: Fordman be aware stereotypes exist for a reason. Old people cant ---smurfing--- drive is a true stereotype for a reason. The stereotypes of inbreeding being prominent in Arkansas but not New York exist for a reason as well. I think stopping there proves my point enough, I am sure the rest of you can think of more.

Perhaps you guys have your ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- together now, perhaps that means the next generation may buy from you I suppose but not this guy.

It sucks to see China buy our debt & other countries buy our breweries & factories but that's how it goes. Globalization will have casualties but in the end it will all work out for the better. Then we will colonize other planets & talk about not using their nanocarbon until we have a galactic economy LOL.

[danny_galaga]

It's ok, neither do I, really...  I just make it up as I go along...   

Mostly, I'm a computer geek.  I model turbofan engines based on their thermo qualities, and then simulate their operation across the flight envelope, and look for potential problems.

now i have a better picture. So for instance, one of the things you will be determining is the airflow through the engine at various attitudes from say -2 degrees all the way up to stall, or when yawing etc.

Yes.  Similarly, determining the distortion created by angled crosswinds, etc. 

Ah yes, all these things create 'shadow' for the airflow, thus causing variations in cooling, and efficiency (i imagine one engine getting slightly less oxygen than the other in a yaw or crosswind situation) Cool. Finally, a fancy job description i can actually figure out!

[HaRuMaN]

^^ You've got it.

[ChadTower]

How long has the Fusion been on the market now?  I'll start to believe it's as good as the Accord or the Civic when you see 12 year old Fusions with 240,000 miles on them still on the road - driven by people who still want them.

You know how I know this ratings site is full of crap?  They rated the PT Cruiser best mechanical quality in its class.  I test drove one of those recently and it was a piece of cheaply built crap.  Even my wife, who knows jack about cars, was surprised by how lousy that thing was.

[HaRuMaN]

The Fusion isn't even made in America. 

The Fusion is manufactured at Ford's Hermosillo Stamping & Assembly plant in Hermosillo, Sonora, Mexico...

[ChadTower]

So doesn't that also mean the Fusion is made by people NOT in this guy's union?  In fact wouldn't it mean that people in his union lost jobs so that cheaper Mexicans can build these cars instead of people in his union?  Wouldn't he have friends at home unemployed because of the Fusion?

So if we buy a Fusion aren't we jabbing a stick in his eye?

[Flake]

Oh for god's sake people, all this propaganda about "saving american jobs" is really horsecrap.  When will people begin to understand our economy - and every other country for that matter - is no longer "national" its global.  Ford manufactures cars in Mexico but Toyota manufactures cars in the US.  Yea, lets stop buying Toyota's because they are a "foreign" company.  Tell that to the employees of Toyota's 13 US manufacturing locations.  Protectionism isnt going to help or solve anything.  I'm not a Toyota apologist by any stretch but the level of ignorance that appears prevelant in labor unions.....and quite frankly the general public is baffling.  People would rather believe what Joe politician or Bill union leader tells them than discover the truth for themselves.

You cant alter the movement of global economics.  Basic economic theory holds that efficiency......eventually......wins over any other economic force.  Might as well embrace it.  If American workers want a piece of the pie develop some damn efficiency so your company can be competitive in the global environment.  Otherwise, go wait in line at the unemployment office........

BTW - I drive a 2006 F-150 I purchased brand new and my wife drives a 2006 Ford Explorer purchased brand new.

[Fordman]

Yes, the Fusion, Milan and MKZ are made in mexico. If it wasnt for NAFTA, they would be made right here in the U.S.A.

Actually, the Chicago Assembly plant may be adding a second assembly line for the Fusion. Ford is having trouble getting Fusion's out of mexico because of the governments unwillingness to fight organized crime and political corruptness there.

As for protectionism, I'm not preaching it. But if we dont make anything, who's going to buy anything? Show me a service job other than city trash collector that pays anything close to a livable wage. Why do we as Americans' or Europeans have to lower our standards of life to those in third world countries because they have backwards or corrupt governments?

BTW, who's going to build the military might if needed? At Ford, all of our machines, by law, have to be engineered to build military equipment at the press of a button. Who do you think built the war machine in WWI & WWII? Believe me, the toyota's and honda's of the world arnt going to build the tanks or planes if needed. And dont give me the "war is different now, we dont need tanks and planes" crap that many spew! The machines are tested every 90 days to make military builds and they have to work at a touch of a button he first time! The auto companies built the WWI & WWII war machine and they will build the next one if needed. And NO, the military Humvee and GM's Hummer are not the same! GM licensed the Hummer from AM General and use the Humvee look and feel for their design! A chinese company will not build Humvee's as some fear! 2 different animals.

Thats it for my ranting!

Oh, Thank You Flake for your F-150 and Explorer purchase! 

Fordman

[ChadTower]

I have to point out here that it's thinking in 1940 terms rather than 2009 terms that got the US auto companies in this situation in the first place.

[Fordman]

Do a little labor research first! I majored in History in general but the labor part was my favorite!

It worked in the 1940's and it will work today! In the 1940's workers had to 'stand up' by 'sitting down' for their rights on the job! The autoworkers told the companies that they wanted a job tomorrow! Not beg daily to able to work and then come back the next day just to beg again. That's where the term 'straw pool' and 'straw boss' came from. Your just a number at your workplace with no voice if you are hired as an 'Employee-At-Will'. The company can fire you without recousre for NO reason! Any lawyer will tell you that!

Companies today use the 'Divide & Conquer' metallity to divide the workforce. They have done a great job of this since 1981. They hire large law firms to come into your workplace and intentionally divide you! They want you to work for peanuts and make them billions, just to forget about you after you put your time in (just ask those at IBM)!
They want you to make one wage w/ benefits and the guy next to you to make another wage without benefits! They want you to gravel at their feet and for you to worhip them because they gave you a job.

Take a course in Labor history and I bet you change your tune!

United We Stand - Divided We Beg!

As far as thinking in 1940's terms, the Detroit 3 missed a boat in the 1990's with cars. They forgot about them. Lack of style and innovation with what they did have. The Ford Taurus was a great car, but forgotten then last 10 years. The Montego/Mystique were both mistakes. The Big 3 wanted it all, thats why they bought up all the European brands. Now they're trying to fire sale them. Shouldve re-invested their 1990's profits in ther products, not expand what they had!

 

Fordman

[Flake]

I think I came off a bit preachy in my earlier post so I apologize for that.  Fordman I love my truck and am equally satisfied with my wife's Explorer.  2 of my previous 3 vehicles were GM products but Fords truck design during 2006 was far and away more attractive (IMO) than GM.

You ask what is the US going to produce?  Well just because our auto industry isnt what it once was doesnt mean the US is out of the manufacturing business.  Small businesses employ over 50% of the US workforce and those numbers continue to rise.  The US is plenty attractive for businesses.  We have plenty of access to capital (and I'm not just talking about banks but also private equity groups), few barriers into industries, tax incentives, readily available consumers, etc.  There are many other industries outside of general manufacturing that prosper here in the states.

IMO the auto industry was crippled long ago by the UAW.  Unions are a thing of the past and will continue to lose their power even more so in the years ahead.  They served their purpose but times have changed and they are really nothing more than drag on the economy.  Yea individually some families would be better off but the economy as a whole suffers so some.....here come the stereotypes......unmotivated, often lazy worker can mail it in from 9-5 everyday, earn more than he or she is worth then retire fat and happy when he or she reaches 65 on a bloated pension.  I read an economic brief just yesterday estimated the UAW labor costs have added anywhere from $2,000-$4,000 additional cost per car.  Meaning Ford, GM and Chrysler are at a competitive price disadvantage right from the start.  

Fordman, I dont doubt you do good work and I know many a union worker who are very skilled at their craft.  But for every one of those I know, there are two who fit quite nicely into the typical union stereotype.

[pinballwizard79]

I HATE when self righteous union people try to guilt everyone for not buying their crap.

Its my money, spent how I want, on what I want, on what I researched, on what offers the best ROI. People stopped buying certain products for a reason, learn the reason & emulate or better yet innovate it rather than cry. If you want me to buy what you want then give me your money, snaps!

Fordman better look at your dish towels, sandals, shoes, shirt, jeans, watch, alarm clock, tooth brush, wallet, belt, silverware, plates, tupperware, toaster, microwave, lunchbox, welcome mat, garage door remote, tv, dvd player, cable box, furniture, light fixtures, telescope, computer, printer, scanner, cookie jar, drink coasters, shelves, martini glasses, arcade PCB board, buttons, joystick, 401k & damn mutual fund.

Because none of that ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- was made in America.

How dare you not buy a watch that will rust & break made buy a guy named Hank in Texas who adopted a beagle & belongs to a union & likes to eat hotdogs while driving a ford listening to willie nelson & takes off work to strike then deer hunt & yell at yuppies in toyotas while voting for American idol. Sheesh, damn commie!

One more thing: The unions have not been necessary since we established labor laws.

FYI: I work for a possibly failing bank so I feel your pain but am I blaming anyone?

Nope, I am taking it like a man.

[boykster]

You know how I know this ratings site is full of crap?  They rated the PT Cruiser best mechanical quality in its class.  I test drove one of those recently and it was a piece of cheaply built crap.  Even my wife, who knows jack about cars, was surprised by how lousy that thing was.

No kidding - I had one as a rental while my car was in the body shop, and MAN what a junky car that was.  It was a 2009 with only 4k miles on it, and damn that thing rattled like a mofo, the clock didn't work, and it was a gutless wonder on the freeway.

[danny_galaga]

IMO the auto industry was crippled long ago by the UAW.  Unions are a thing of the past and will continue to lose their power even more so in the years ahead.  They served their purpose but times have changed and they are really nothing more than drag on the economy.  Yea individually some families would be better off but the economy as a whole suffers so some.....here come the stereotypes......unmotivated, often lazy worker can mail it in from 9-5 everyday, earn more than he or she is worth then retire fat and happy when he or she reaches 65 on a bloated pension.  I read an economic brief just yesterday estimated the UAW labor costs have added anywhere from $2,000-$4,000 additional cost per car.  Meaning Ford, GM and Chrysler are at a competitive price disadvantage right from the start.  

Fordman, I dont doubt you do good work and I know many a union worker who are very skilled at their craft.  But for every one of those I know, there are two who fit quite nicely into the typical union stereotype.

You need to read a book called 'Going postal' by Mark Ames. In it, he explores the root causes of workplace rage in America. One of the things he mentions is the decline of unions. Another is the fact that big companies feed us this crap about profitability. Yet most of the cuts they make (sackings, erosion of privileges like paid holidays and sick leave. How much paid leave do you get? I get 4 weeks a year, and i've only worked at the same place for 2 years) go straight to the CEO's pockets. The pigs at the trough couldn't be happier that the average shmoe thinks he's better off nowadays. In the 70's the average CEO earnt 30 times the average salary. Now it's something like 500 times the average salary! Youre actually worse off now. I think someone here corrected someone else when they said 50 hours a week is a normal work load. When it should actually be 35-40 hours. They reduce the workforce so those left over can work harder for no extra pay. Where does that difference go i wonder?

Many people think of cars or heavy industry when they think unions. But unions exist to protect the rights of many types of worker, including administrative, clerical etc. I myself don't always join unions. I am currently in the Postal Union, and i have been in a Retail workers union.

In short, I agree with Fordman in general about unions. The pigs at the trough would have you believe unions are irrelevant now, but as soon as unions are gone, companies will have absolutely no compulsion to look after your rights. That $2000-$4000 per car? You think they'll sell the car $2000-$4000 cheaper? Hip pocket, my friend. But go ahead, work 20 hours overtime a week without any penalty rates. CEO's luxury yachts don't come from thin air. Take it like a man. In Australia, we don't have to

[pinballwizard79]

PBJ once again you...........ah never mind 

I am sure Australia is a magic land where your boss lets you make out with his wife, then gives you a raise & sends you home early to cook up kangaroo meat on the barbie while drinking Fosters & staring at a big orange rock with a Subaru in front of it.

But truth be told the only people who care about unions are the people in the union........................then there are the rest of us. If you were a Scientologist union member then you'd belong to two groups that no one else other than its own members cared about.

Tomorrow I swear to god I will eat Chinese food, when I get home I will drink Spaaten & then watch telemundo on my Japanese made TV.

OMG its a Toyota commercial on Telemundo





Alright I am totally starting to turn into a troll, I cant be "that guy" more than 2 posts in a row so I have to be good for a while.

[danny_galaga]

PBJ once again you...........ah never mind 

I am sure Australia is a magic land where your boss lets you make out with his wife, then gives you a raise & sends you home early to cook up kangaroo meat on the barbie while drinking Fosters & staring at a big orange rock with a Subaru in front of it.

Well, I did finish work at 1:30 pm today. Fosters is the crap we export to you people. The bosses wife is a bit too 'plain' for me...

[Fordman]

[/quote]

Our local Toyota factory (Ontario, Canada) is not unionized, and they have no shortage of people wanting to work there (even prior to the current economic/work situation this was the case). Great reputation. $25/hr minimum starting wage.

[/quote]

The only reason the toyota workers get paid the $25.00hr is because the Ford, Chrysler & GM plants that are represented by the CAW. Toyoyta and honda in the U.S. also pay /w benefits similar to the Big 3 just to keep the UAW out. It's well documented that when ever the UAW represented plants get gains or have to take cuts, the foriegn plants do too!

Same story here in the U.S.A., when the 'Now Hiring' sign goes up, there are 25,000 people in line for the 25-30 jobs available. with 24,000 of them cursing the UAW the day before because they make too much money, but when they get a chance at the pie, they all the sudden change their tune!

 

Fordman

[CheffoJeffo]

The only reason the toyota workers get paid the $25.00hr is because the Ford, Chrysler & GM plants that are represented by the CAW.

That's not quite accurate, but it definitely plays a part in terms of what the market will bear.

For my part, I've never been a big fan of unions as the companies got bigger and the unions started to wield undue amounts of power in what I see should be a free market.

As for my purchases, I have owned 3 Ford vehicles, none of which was made in the USA, 3 Honda vehicles, 2 of which were made in the USA, 2 GM vehicles, both made in the USA, a BMW and a Toyota, which was made in the USA.

In terms of overall quality, the Toyota wins handsdown with the Hondas coming in a close second. My Jimmy was a vehicle that I could keep running forever on my own, except that I couldn't change the damned spark plugs without a hoist and it wouldn't seat the 3 kids, 2 dogs and all of our gear comfortably (otherwise I would still have it). For the most part, the Fords have been a disaster, but they've been Windstars (and, as I say, not made in the USA), so that was not entirely unexpected.

I do find it interesting that my best friend is a firefighter and relies heavily on his union (was a union delegate not long ago) to negotiate well on his behalf ... and he *hates* the UAW. His last vehicle, purchased new 5 months ago, was a Toyota and built in Japan.

As for flake's assessment that the US is attractive for business, it is attractive for *some* businesses ... while access to capital is important, the US has suffered in that regard (Hell, Toyota requested a "bailout" from the Japanese government so that they could finance more cars because the US capital markets dried up). Access to consumers is, today, mostly independent of the geography of manufacturing. Add to that an expensive, aging, workforce and high health-care costs and it isn't as attractive as people might think for companies with large workforces.

Shouldve re-invested their 1990's profits in ther products, not expand what they had!

That, and started to think about adequately financing their benefits programs, the pay-as-you-go costs of which comprise, what, 30-40% of the human labour cost in each new vehicle ?

In any event  to you for being proud of what you do and what you make.

[ChadTower]

The only reason the toyota workers get paid the $25.00hr is because the Ford, Chrysler & GM plants that are represented by the CAW.

That's not quite accurate, but it definitely plays a part in terms of what the market will bear.

Does it really?  The only way that would be a real factor is if the Toyota workers could jump to Ford.  If there are a thousand applicants for every job at Ford that is not a factor at all.  If that figure is anything close to accurate then Ford is a closed system and has no effect on market rates among at-will employees.

[CheffoJeffo]

The only reason the toyota workers get paid the $25.00hr is because the Ford, Chrysler & GM plants that are represented by the CAW.

That's not quite accurate, but it definitely plays a part in terms of what the market will bear.

Does it really?  The only way that would be a real factor is if the Toyota workers could jump to Ford.  If there are a thousand applicants for every job at Ford that is not a factor at all.  If that figure is anything close to accurate then Ford is a closed system and has no effect on market rates among at-will employees.

Prior to the latest unpleasantness, it did here.

I probably should have couched that statement in the past tense, but there was competition between manufacturers here (all within 150 kilometers of each other).

[Flake]

In short, I agree with Fordman in general about unions. The pigs at the trough would have you believe unions are irrelevant now, but as soon as unions are gone, companies will have absolutely no compulsion to look after your rights. That $2000-$4000 per car? You think they'll sell the car $2000-$4000 cheaper? Hip pocket, my friend. But go ahead, work 20 hours overtime a week without any penalty rates. CEO's luxury yachts don't come from thin air. Take it like a man. In Australia, we don't have to

Wow does that statement come straight from the union manual?  Union guys really soak their union leader propaganda stuff up.  

You want to discuss CEO's high salaries?  Why dont we discuss how much the head of the UAW makes?  I can guarantee you its no small sum.  I'm sure Ron Gettelfinger has a yacht parked in same harbor as William Clay Ford.  Has the union decreased your dues over the years to make sure their precious laborers take home enough pay?  Face it man, the union is nothing but another corporation that exists now for one purpose - to make money.  Their product is you.  But instead of marketing their product as beneficial and cost effective to their consumers (being Ford, GM, etc.) they use time tested methods of heavy handed enforcement and basically legal blackmail to force their product onto their consumer.

[RayB]

Just to clarify, the $25/hr at Toyota I mentioned is STARTING WAGE (I said that, but it was obviously unclear). So in other words, if you're a new hire and don't even necessarily have experience, you're making $50K a year starting salary, plus nice benefits after the probationary period (no union dues, and remember we have free health care here). So imagine what the long-term employees are making.  That's a good salary for this area and our cost of living. The only con is its shift-work, so you might be working days for a few weeks then switch to nights for few, etc.

(Minimum wage in Ontario, Canada is $9.50)

[Kevin Mullins]

(Minimum wage in Ontario, Canada is $9.50)

US or CAD ?

[LLUncoolJ]

I AM NOT A NERD!!! 

[HaRuMaN]

I AM NOT A NERD!!! 

Yes you are.  Take it like a man.

[LLUncoolJ]

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=92998.0    (see post # 17 (reply #16))

Clearly I'm a dork, not a nerd.

Nerd implies smart, I just like video games and whatnot.

[HaRuMaN]

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=92998.0    (see post # 17)

Clearly I'm a dork, not a nerd.

Clearly you're in denial.

[LLUncoolJ]

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=92998.0

see post #20 (reply #19)

[HaRuMaN]

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=92998.0

see post #20 (reply #19)

Quit editing your posts, you dorky nerd.

[LLUncoolJ]

I'm thinking about starting a new thread...and there's nothing you can do about it.

[HaRuMaN]

I'm thinking about starting a new thread...and there's nothing you can do about it.

I'll sick the cat on you.  He bites.

[Fordman]

Just to clarify, the $25/hr at Toyota I mentioned is STARTING WAGE (I said that, but it was obviously unclear). So in other words, if you're a new hire and don't even necessarily have experience, you're making $50K a year starting salary, plus nice benefits after the probationary period (no union dues, and remember we have free health care here). So imagine what the long-term employees are making.  That's a good salary for this area and our cost of living. The only con is its shift-work, so you might be working days for a few weeks then switch to nights for few, etc.

(Minimum wage in Ontario, Canada is $9.50)

I dont know Canadian Labor laws or history so I'm no qualified to answer about min wage in Canada, but do you really think toyota would pay $25.00hr if Ford, chrysler and GM didnt?

Toyota uses part time and temp labor here in the U.S.A.. Thats how they get around paying for benefits and legacy costs. When the UAW tried to organize a toyota plant in Georgetown, KY, the NLRB ruled that the workers that signed the cars for the election worked for the temp service and not toyota, so therefore the workers would have voted for the temp service to be Unionized. As with the NLRB ruling, toyota terminated the contract with the temp service. Toyota uses the temp services to maximize their profits and pay the temps nothing but 'maybe a chance' to get full time employement. 87% of all workers in toyota plants in the U.S. are temp workers with next to no benefits and NO pension or retirement plan. Temp services have done nothing but bring wages down. Everyone in the town of Georgetown, Ky has worked at Toyota and the majority have been fired. They bus in workers from Louisville and Eastern, KY daily because in Eastern, KY, all the coal mines have closed and $8.50hr plus a free ride to work is considered a 'Good Job'!

And No, I dont read from the Union manual. All I have to do is look out my back door and see the skeletons of what was once a thriving industrial park. One auto plant, 3 supplier plants, 1 small power plant, 1 water treament plant, 5 warehouses and lots of empty rail road tracks and parking lots. All have been vacant for 3 years now and arnt going to have tennants any time soon if we keep letting mexico and china take it all!

Fordman

[CheffoJeffo]

All have been vacant for 3 years now and arnt going to have tennants any time soon if we keep letting mexico and china take it all!

Don't forget Canuckistan !

[Fordman]

Canada isnt going to get the work either! You Canadians make too much money too! Just ask any company and they will tell you!

Fordman

[CheffoJeffo]

Canada isnt going to get the work either! You Canadians make too much money too! Just ask any company and they will tell you!

I'm not saying that they are ... just suggesting that they already did (you may have been in high school, sleeping through social studies and may have missed it ... it was very sneaky, but the jobs did move from the US to another country ... there was a free trade agreement in North America before NAFTA).

You keep suggesting that people buy American and, quite frankly, Ford has been quite adept at manufacturing elsewhere for a very long time. Hell, you touted the superior quality of a Ford model built in Mexico as a reason to buy American! (nice one!)

You may not like Toyota, but my Toyota was actually built in the USA, unlike all 3 of my Fords and all 4 of the Fords that my father-in-law has purchased (all new). My own father, who is a car snob (still driving his 300ZXtt because it is so damned pretty and so ---smurfing--- fast) and has almost always bought Japanese or Euro, has owned 3 Fords ... not one of those Fords were built in the USA.

So, between the 3 of us, we have purchased 10 Ford vehicles and it is my Hondas and Toyota that were built in the USA.

I'm all for sticking up for your country and your company, but you seem to be doing both without any consistency between the two.

 

[ChadTower]

My wife's Hyundai was built in the midwest US and is a better value than anything Ford could produce.

[danny_galaga]

In short, I agree with Fordman in general about unions. The pigs at the trough would have you believe unions are irrelevant now, but as soon as unions are gone, companies will have absolutely no compulsion to look after your rights. That $2000-$4000 per car? You think they'll sell the car $2000-$4000 cheaper? Hip pocket, my friend. But go ahead, work 20 hours overtime a week without any penalty rates. CEO's luxury yachts don't come from thin air. Take it like a man. In Australia, we don't have to

Wow does that statement come straight from the union manual?  Union guys really soak their union leader propaganda stuff up.  

You want to discuss CEO's high salaries?  Why dont we discuss how much the head of the UAW makes?  I can guarantee you its no small sum.

I'm not a hard core unionist. It would be equally valid to say you've soaked up 'The Man's' propaganda.

And i'm in Australia, no Teamsters or whatever here. You really should read 'Going Postal'. The author isn't a unionist either as far as i can tell. He used to be a commodities trader. And if we talk about high salaries, yes i bet the head of the UAW makes a tidy sum. But i bet it's still magnitudes smaller than most CEO's...

Sorry LLuncoolJ, I'll quit hijacking your thread.

I'm that type of guy...

[ChadTower]

But i bet it's still magnitudes smaller than most CEO's...

I bet it isn't and I've done the same amount of research you have.   

[WunderCade]

RONALD GETTELFINGER,  PRESIDENT of the UAW

According to the US Dept. of Labor his 2007 compensation was $163,075.

$163,075 a year for a union of 464,910 members in 2007. That is a very low ratio. As far as organizations this size, he is working for peanuts.

[pinballwizard79]

The union sued my former employer, they had to let all the non union employees go. This was just a few months ago, a great time to be job hunting let me tell you. The union also works against my family members who are small business owners. Unions drive up labor costs on products, strike & cry when "scabs" are working & then tell all of us non union folks we are scum for not buying their product because its the LAST ---smurfing--- thing made in America......I mean Mexico......I mean Canada.

Again the only people who care about the union are those in the union. Somehow we care about our troops, police, teachers & etc but no one gives a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about some picket line umbrella monkeys with a chip on their shoulder.

I will avoid buying anything affiliated with the union. I will buy the car that is dependable. Unions pushed themselves in a corner by screwing over everyone but themselves. They are a unification of selfish people with only their own best interest in mind, not the "peoples".

Union workers buy foreign crap all day long, everything in your house, the keybord you are using to say "nu huh" & etc. Why do you guys think its ok to buy foreign stuff unless its a car? What is so damn magical about cars made in Mexico that pisses you off so much?

Do you not realize you take pride in building something that consumes the most hated imported product in the planet?

OIL.

You brag to make something in America that runs on nothing found in America

---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

What in the world do you have to say about that Mr "Made in America to create demand for imported war"?

[danny_galaga]

The union sued my former employer, they had to let all the non union employees go. This was just a few months ago, a great time to be job hunting let me tell you. The union also works against my family members who are small business owners. Unions drive up labor costs on products, strike & cry when "scabs" are working & then tell all of us non union folks we are scum for not buying their product because its the LAST ---smurfing--- thing made in America......I mean Mexico......I mean Canada.

Again the only people who care about the union are those in the union. Somehow we care about our troops, police, teachers & etc but no one gives a ---Cleveland steamer--- about some picket line umbrella monkeys with a chip on their shoulder.

I will avoid buying anything affiliated with the union. I will buy the car that is dependable. Unions pushed themselves in a corner by screwing over everyone but themselves. They are a unification of selfish people with only their own best interest in mind, not the "peoples".

Union workers buy foreign crap all day long, everything in your house, the keybord you are using to say "nu huh" & etc. Why do you guys think its ok to buy foreign stuff unless its a car? What is so damn magical about cars made in Mexico that pisses you off so much?

Do you not realize you take pride in building something that consumes the most hated imported product in the planet?

OIL.

You brag to make something in America that runs on nothing found in America

---Cleveland steamer---.

What in the world do you have to say about that Mr "Made in America to create demand for imported war"?

Pssst. Over here ---> http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=93080.0

[ChadTower]

RONALD GETTELFINGER,  PRESIDENT of the UAW

According to the US Dept. of Labor his 2007 compensation was $163,075.

$163,075 a year for a union of 464,910 members in 2007. That is a very low ratio. As far as organizations this size, he is working for peanuts.

...and if you believe a person with the power of the head of the UAW is only pulling in what his publicly listed salary happens to be then you haven't paid much attention to the entire history of humanity.