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Author Topic: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors  (Read 21117 times)

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genesim

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LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« on: April 26, 2009, 08:02:00 am »
I feel like something like this should get its own topic.    And though I am sure this post isn't going to be the most popular I do have questions.

Lets take for example a game like Turbo which has great evidence that it was programmed for color bleed like Xiaou2 posted.

Now I do get some of the logic in saying that the artist didn't mean for it to be seen in the way represented with a new monitor...but perhaps not all is lost.

You figure in the dead center of a pixel the CRT monitor got that much right, so why can't the color blur be emulated?

The standard resolution of Turbo(and please feel free to correct me immediately) was something like 336/240.

On a UXGA resolution of 1600x1200 that leaves alot of pixels to work with to make this result.   Of course this is barring the black lines on the side...but my point is what is wrong with having a database of the different monitors resolutions and their apparent flaws?    Obviously to some the flaws are well liked, so are they really that uniform?   Could they be worth programming for?

You figure that even the color bleeding has to have a pixel measurement.   The bleeding would have to take up some kind space right?   Of course scanlines are an issue too, but I just wonder how much is too much.    How much before the purist say its enough.

Some have with the code because of MAME ....and others have because of joysticks...and to a smaller degree they have because of at least getting multisync monitors.     Where is it going to finally be enough to make that switch to the next generation.

Even with Laser TV's around the corner will they really dethrone the LCD?  Will OLED be able to either?   LCD will surely compete and color filters are a pretty old technology as well.   Will it ever really be obsolete?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 08:04:23 am by genesim »

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2009, 10:19:47 am »
LCD's will eventually be phased out, taken over by OLED, Laser etc.. or what ever else is on the horizon. However as far as classics go I personally feel that they are and will always be best viewed on a CRT. Sadly they are getting tougher to find.
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2009, 10:55:31 am »
On a UXGA resolution of 1600x1200 that leaves alot of pixels to work with to make this result.   Of course this is barring the black lines on the side...but my point is what is wrong with having a database of the different monitors resolutions and their apparent flaws?    Obviously to some the flaws are well liked, so are they really that uniform?   Could they be worth programming for?

You figure that even the color bleeding has to have a pixel measurement.   The bleeding would have to take up some kind space right?   Of course scanlines are an issue too, but I just wonder how much is too much.    How much before the purist say its enough.

Some have with the code because of MAME ....and others have because of joysticks...and to a smaller degree they have because of at least getting multisync monitors.     Where is it going to finally be enough to make that switch to the next generation.

A more relevant question is whether or not the "purists" will ever use LCDs anyway -- before we grind through another pointless series of debates, let's recognize that most of the people who you are looking to satisfy/impress aren't ever going to put an LCD into an arcade cabinet, so why bother ?

For everybody else,

If you don't have a problem with how the games look or play, then you don't have a problem with the way the games look or play.


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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2009, 12:36:32 pm »
After three of these threads, I still fail to understand your point.  Would you, please, list them (succinctly) so everyone understands what you are posting about?

Personally, I think you've tried to say the following:

1. LCDs are superior to CRT displays
2. Games look/play/____ better on LCDs
3. Programmers did _____ because of ______ and CRT displays

For once, I'm not trying to be an ass towards you yet.   :P  I've yet to see a cogent posting from you that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal.


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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2009, 01:06:00 pm »
Personally, I think you've tried to say the following:

1. LCDs are superior to CRT displays
2. Games look/play/____ better on LCDs
3. Programmers did _____ because of ______ and CRT displays

You forgot
4. Hey, maybe we can get some programmers to make LCDs look more like CRTs!

 :dizzy:

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2009, 01:10:32 pm »
You forgot
4. Hey, maybe we can get some programmers to make LCDs look more like CRTs!

Which has nothing to do with real arcade machines, only emulation. If I want to restore a classic cab, I ain't dropping an LCD in it.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2009, 01:36:30 pm »
You cannot be seriously saying that CRTs are hard to find.   :dunno
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2009, 01:53:55 pm »
You cannot be seriously saying that CRTs are hard to find.   :dunno

Well, since most folks aren't manufacturing new anymore, that day isn't too far away ...
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2009, 04:25:11 pm »
The standard resolution of Turbo(and please feel free to correct me immediately) was something like 336/240.

Actually (and depending on the convention used), it's 208x248.


Quote
On a UXGA resolution of 1600x1200 that leaves alot of pixels to work with to make this result.   Of course this is barring the black lines on the side...

What black lines? Overscan lines? If the monitor is vertically oriented, there are no black lines. If the monitor is horizontally oriented, then the modeline is different, to make up for the greater number of horizontal lines than vertical. They're still there, just the guns aren't firing over them.
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2009, 04:28:18 pm »
No I am not saying any of those things.

An LCD monitor has alot of good qualities.   I wouldn't say all of the things have surpassed current CRT's, but they sure have older ones.

The problem is software.

Never said they play better...look better...or even are better.

But what I am saying is that LCD's can look a heck of alot better then currently presented.   Even if you hate LCD's one would have to admit that.

If not, what is the problem?

Higher refresh rates can be taken advantage of...I bet.   Honest to goodness discussion of the problems would at least help me to understand.

For my money contrast ratio seems to be just fine with 10,000 to one.   It looks totally black to me.    

Refresh rates...1ms response.  I don't see blur anymore.

No reflection...etc. etc.  

Just trying to really really understand.

To me the "turbo" screen shots look good in one way, but some of the problems are there and a CRT monitor does not age gracefully.   Give me separate stripes to have WHITE whites or grey road vs the pink/garbled mess that is obviously a problem.

My dad paints for a hobby and I understand how a non flat canvas can give you percieved 3D effects...great.  So why not program for it?

Hoopz,

I don't recall specifically posting about this issue.   Matter of fact, this is really the first time I have discussed it the same way.    I guess I want answers even if it is laced with other stuff.

Ummon,

Actually I was talking about the non used pixels if the scale up isn't congruent.  Thats all.   Thanks for the correction...looks like alot more pixels to work with to make the anomolies that people enjoy.

For all, there are quite a few people using LCD monitors in their arcade, and it is growing all the time...if people keep building.     Sure there are people that are purist..and believe it or not, I do respect those types(who knows I may one day be one of those...I doubt it..but you never know)...still it doesn't make the other way impossible.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 04:30:08 pm by genesim »

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2009, 04:38:46 pm »
You cannot be seriously saying that CRTs are hard to find.   :dunno

Show me a website where I can buy a brand new 19'' CRT CGA for 150-189.
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2009, 04:51:11 pm »
I know most major companies do not stock them anymore and places like Sony don't even handle plasmas.

The tech for bad or for good is as dead as Julius Ceasar.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2009, 05:31:28 pm »

 You can not make any judgment on the Look of the Turbo arcade pics, because,
unlike the mame direct screen 'dumps'...  Turbos arcade monitor snapshots were
token with a camera.   
 
 And, anyone knows that when you try to take a good picutre of a standard tv, it
almost always is garbage. (unless maybe you have an incredible camera)

 The Road looks great on an arcade monitor.  Much more depth because of Texture
effect.  Turbo on a pc/lcd monitor look flat and like garbage.

 Until you have actually played a few old school games from the 80s on a
real arcade monitor... your opinions have no weight to them at all.
 
 Unlike myself, who has owned a  37" 1080p  lcd...  AND  who owns several
arcade machines... as well as a 34"  1080i  sony hdtv  (CRT).

 

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2009, 06:28:44 pm »
Arcadeshop.com sells some 19" CGA arcade monitors.

http://arcadeshop.com/parts.htm#Monitors

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2009, 07:31:00 pm »
Quote
Until you have actually played a few old school games from the 80s on a
real arcade monitor... your opinions have no weight to them at all.

And I have played plenty.   I admit that I didn't sit there with a magnifying glass either.

I agree with your assessment that good pictures are hard to take.  And me being an MK nut...even that had a 3D look because of scanlines and what not.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2009, 08:43:17 pm »
Sadly, my exuberance in the other thread has resulted in genesim's glorious display of ignorance (not understanding the difference between scan rates and refresh rates ... sorry ahofle) being lost to readers of this thread.

In the meantime, however, it should be pointed out (as I did in the thread that I got PHd and the last series of threads that genesim posted about this in) that legitimate folks (e.g. people who actually know something about the subject matter) are working on the "LCD replacement" issue and that we would all be interested in what they have to say.
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2009, 09:31:12 pm »
I don't have money to stock up, supposidly they are going to be done soon.. I'd really hope they would make them for another few years so I can bulk purchase then about a dozen, just in case.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 12:18:44 am by mrclean »
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2009, 10:03:40 pm »
Jeffo,

What the hell are you talking about...because I said KILO???

Yeah I admit I got a sampling rate mixed in(I talk music too on another board)...because I don't sit around saying the lingo on an everyday effort.

But do I know the difference, are you frickin' kidding me?    Do you not remember us talking about Andy's arcade vga card and me specifically getting it to get an LCD to fake the odd MK display??   Then you quote it to me like it is something completey new.

Yeah real good work there inspector.

Now please stop the crap and don't get this topic deleted even though that seems to be your goal to some how "out" me.   

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2009, 11:03:39 pm »
There is probably only one thing I need to conceed here.  Arcade games run at different resolutions and CRTs can vary the resolution at which their guns are drawing where as LCD screens are locked to their own native resolution.  Put anything other than the native resolution to the LCD and it looks like crap.  Also LCD screens all have a pixel aspect ratio of exactly 1:1 (Square) where on CRT screens it can vary.  NTSC TV's for example have a 10:11 PAR.

This is where the truely tricky part comes in; Resizing.  You resize things you blur them, you make them fuzzy and sharp or without a resize filter that 'smooths them' it insteads makes them look chunky and offset.  So Pole Position which runs at a resolution of 256 x 224, that's a ratio of 24:21.  There is basicly no way to view this on a LCD screen with 1:1 PAR pixels without either A) Accepting that your view will look 'taller' than it did in the arcade.  B) Accepting some blurring as it's resized to 'look right'.

Not to mention that unless you accept some letter/pillar boxing and only resize to exact multiples of the original resolutionl (IE; 1024x896).  This is actually what I did for Datyona USA on the Model 2 emulator.  It runs at 496 x 384 so I added a resolution of 992 x 768, so I could double the 2D sprites exactly while enjoying a higher resolution 3D experiance.  If I say, ran the game at 1024x768 the sprites would need to be stretched slightly and it would show.  They wouldn't be as 'crisp' as they would be at the native resolution or a double or quadropling of the dimensions they were rendered at.  Since I do use CRT PC monitors, I just 'stretched' the screen out a bit using the controls and made it fit the 4:3 frame of the monitor and it looked fine.

So if you are locked to a specific resolution and aspect ratio on ANY display you are going to either run into degradation/blurring by resizing or have to endure some black frames and incorrect aspect ratio changes.  This isn't exclusive to LCD, Plasma and most other technologies that use an unchangable grid for it's pixels will face this.  Of course many people won't notice this.  Many people don't care about some blurring as the image is scaled up to fit the monitor's reslution.  Some people use interpolators to smooth out the sprites as they're scaled up and they're happy with this.

However for those who do want the experiance that is 'exactly like the CRT that was in the cab that was in the arcade with I was just twelve years old!' I don't think it can be done.  You'll just be blurring and fuzzing crap artifically and probably fail to accomplish the desired results.  A database of filters to make it 'just right' would also be a HUGE source of debate if only cause any effect of the filter is purely perceptual and likely to vary one person to another.

Probably the only way to get the 'exact CRT feel' of an arcade cab is to put a CRT inside it.  Anything else will be crap.  And I bet that someone would totally put lots of effort into making an LCD replicate 'CRT Flicker' and in the end it's just make people feel like throwing up.  ...Hell, I feel like that after spending too much time in Windows on Safe Mode on dual 21" CRTs at 60hz. :X

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2009, 12:10:17 am »
You have an excellent observation and I am feeling it...one problem.

Why do you have to change the native resolution?  Again, software to utilize the extras pixels doesn't have to be "blurry".   Scale up correctly and the results can be very hard to tell the difference.   Never underestimate the power of a good programmer.

That and of course using black bars on the sides to keep it correct...but hey why not do a Disney touch with the Disney view to fill out the sides...hmmm like artwork???   I know I know..it has been done...but maybe actual code as opposed to an overlay.   

I don't agree that it is all "crap" though.   The key is if looks good enough...not perfect.   We have accepted less on other things, but it is taking that first step of which gets us closer to the goal...whatever your goals may be.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2009, 01:10:32 am »
Why do you have to change the native resolution?  Again, software to utilize the extras pixels doesn't have to be "blurry".   Scale up correctly and the results can be very hard to tell the difference.   Never underestimate the power of a good programmer.
Well, you COULD build an LCD screen that has the exact pixel aspect ratio and resolution as your game.  Which would probably get as close to the original CRT as you possibly could.  ...Of course fabrication costs of such unique one-of or short run LCD screens would make it utterly impractical.

The only sort of filter that even resize without just blurring things would be interpolation; Something which is far from perfect and in some cases has a benifical effect can also be detrimental.  The problem is when you resize you need to 'fill in the blanks'.  If one pixel was red and the next was blue, but now you resized it and now it needs to make a pixel BETWEEN them somehow halfway between red and blue it's gonna need to it somehow.  This is where thing get blurry or where the sprites get jaggidy in resize like the walls in a game of Doom.  Interpolation could help but advanced techniques are SERIOUSLY heavy in processing demands.

That and of course using black bars on the sides to keep it correct...but hey why not do a Disney touch with the Disney view to fill out the sides...hmmm like artwork???   I know I know..it has been done...but maybe actual code as opposed to an overlay.   

I don't agree that it is all "crap" though.   The key is if looks good enough...not perfect.   We have accepted less on other things, but it is taking that first step of which gets us closer to the goal...whatever your goals may be.

That's the thing.  The games arn't SUPPOSED to be letter boxed.  They are all supposed to fit in a 4:3 frame (With some exceptions and of course the vertical screen games use a 3:4 ratio)  This is because pixels are not always square, on a CRT the aspect ratio of the pixels themselves can be changed arbitrarily.  So on an LCD just to get the games frame aspect ratio right you need to resize it to correct for the limitation of a 1:1 pixel aspect ratio.

For the example;

This is Metal Slug at it's native resolutoion of 304x224 which is ALMOST a 4:3 resolution. In it's native resolution on an LCD it would need to be surrounded by a GIANT black frame.  It'd be a little tiny window of gaming.  Obviously it MUST be resized for LCD or any other technology that is stuck at a native resolution.




Here is the same image resized using Nearest Neighbour to a standard desktop resolution of 640x472, so just imagine two 4 pixel thick bars at top and bottom.  It's actually almost fine.  But look at the blocks closely.  The pixels arn't quite square and are a bit off sized in some areas rather than perfect.  You can see 5 and stuff that some rows of pixels are actually now one or two pixels thicker than other rows because the machine had to fill in the gap somewhere and using this resize method it just picks the nearest pixel and uses it's color to fill in the gap.




Bilinier filtering... Well any filtering like this will just look like blurry crap.  This ain't what you saw on the NeoGeo at the arcade.




So what's the next option?  Interpolation which works in some cases and not in all.  They try to 'smooth out the lines' but it also loses that 'pixely goodness' that a 90s or 80's arcade machine had.  As Metal Slug features some very well painted sprite backgrounds and objects that make very careful use of the colors, interpolation actually degrades this image signifigant and makes it strangly 'warpy'.





On simpler objects using interpolation like HQX can work wonders.  But this is mainly image 'improvement'.

Before:


After:


Filters like this can smooth out sprites and make them look very clean and soft without looking blurry.  They are often employed by emulators and are popular.  However smoothing like this is NOT what you were looking at in the arcades, is it?

All this talk is JUST on the topic of trying to make your old low res arcade games fit high resolution LCD monitors.  We're not even getting into replicating flicker or scanline gaps which would be an entirely different burden.  The only way that such resizing can be done perfectly is in exact multiples.  I can take a 512x386 image and use nearest neighbour to run it on a 1024x768 LCD and it will have been resized PERFECTLY.  It will look sharp and clean as hell because every original pixel now is just occupying a 2x2 grid of pixels.  But this isn't a situation that you arn't likely to luck into.  So resizing MUST be done and will cause some change of some sort to the image to make it fit.  Unless using exact multiples of the original 2x, 4x, 8x and such you're in a dead end.  Somewhere the difference needs to be guessed and 'rounded off' to make it fit.

So I think that attempting to accurately replicate the visual imge of a CRT low res screen on a high res LCD is likely impossible or, more specificly, so utterly difficult and expensive that it would be far, far, FAR easier and cheaper to just use an apropriate CRT screen in all situations.

LCDs have advantages over CRTs, size, weight, power consumption, not killing you via massive electrical shock, no emploding when dropped, but CRTs still hold some advantages.  They can be flexable in the resolution they display, they have much less issues with viewing angle, they're more durable and they are simpler in operation.

What you want reminds me of the filters people use on digital video to give it a 'film effect', adding glow, grain, random hairs, dust and noise, flicking... But it always looks fake.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2009, 01:44:29 am »

 The problem with the filters is that they smooth everything... Including things that
are not meant to be smoothed.

 Many things like rough textures are meant to be jagged... but, the filter engine
smooths them to look soft anyways... because it does not know how to discern
what should be rough and what should be smoothed.


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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2009, 02:42:32 am »
Quote
because it does not know how to discern
what should be rough and what should be smoothed.

Hence the idea of having a specific software for a specific monitor.

Letterbox is not ideal.   I understand that, but as CRT's become rarer they may not be a cost effective measure.

As resolution gets more and more many of ideas presented can come to be...with proper software.

Even emulating the faults like wanted blurring and what not can be done on a database of monitors..much like MAME is for the code.   Maybe it is a pipe dream, but it would be nice.   

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2009, 05:14:20 am »
And I'm saying that any such arrangement of filters would likely fail to have the desired effect.  Any of the 'crispness' that low resolution games have on their native monitors would probably be lost in the attempt.

What you want could actually maybe be done; But it would require VERY accurately rendering a CRT screen including even the little itty bitty tiny gaps BETWEEN the pixels even.  Such could not be replicated on LCD monitors with the resolution we have available.  For such finite and subtle precision of what's NOT there you would probably require a high resolution display technology the likes of which doesn't exist yet.  This is additionally true since I doub't many would care enough about such a set of filtering and processing for enough to interest be there to warrent even attempting it.

Just get a CRT if you want it to look like a CRT.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2009, 05:24:56 am »
I guess it will be have to be made to get anyone on board.   Seeing is believing I guess.

To me having 7 pixels horizontal by 4 pixels vertical EXTRA for every pixel (if using 1600 by 1200 resolution)to creat such changes is a hell of lot to work with.   Good programming could surpise you quite a bit.   

Quote
But it would require VERY accurately rendering a CRT screen including even the little itty bitty tiny gaps BETWEEN the pixels even.

And I have never suggested otherwise.  That is what the extra pixels could be used for.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2009, 06:22:46 am »
So... Representing a single pixel on a CRT that is slightly rectangular using a 7x4 grid of square shaped pixels?  That would look HORRIDLY stretched outsideways.

It would also look AWEFULLY dim.  Each pixel I presume would be like this;

XXXXXXX
XRXGXBX
XRXGXBX
XXXXXXX

With this layout only 21% of the grid is actual color with the rest being black or whatever other color you fill it in.  So it's just gonna look all sorts of dark and stupid and ugly.  You'd maybe make out an image if you crossed your eyes or something.

I think that you are grossly overestimating the size of the 'gap' between subpixels and whole pixels of any display.  Which is why I said that to do such a simulation accurately would require SIGNIFIGANT resolution.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2009, 06:47:45 am »
Not black..."BLUR".."color bleed"..etc.

Studying the monitor and the supposed desired effects is what I am talking about.   Is one pixel really that noticieable in a 1600x1200 grid??

I think we are talking about the whole picture...as far as the grid not being square then keep it even...4x4 and fill the rest in with black on top bottom or side.

And the pixel would not be as you described the RGB would be in the middle as it is meant to be in its perfect state and the rest would be the bleeding.

Though I sure I have this wrong and this is only a minute observation without giving a whole lot of thought to how the mechanism could be duplicated.    You are probably right, it may take alot more resolution.   Of course don't forget the higher refresh rate.   Some of these issues could be a kind of "interlaced" quality.    Remember that something like 15 HZ monitor only draws 15 frames per second as opposed to a 120hz which is 8 more frames...couldn't some of the effect be made there?

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2009, 06:57:21 am »
Ooops I meant to say draws the screen 15 times per second.   I am sure I am going to get roasted over that mistake.

I guess what I mean is that all those extra seconds could draw the anomolies if programmed correctly?  Is this even possible?

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2009, 07:05:25 am »
Ooops I meant to say draws the screen 15 times per second.   I am sure I am going to get roasted over that mistake.

15KHz is the horizontal scan rate, not the refresh rate (which is typically 60Hz).

The screen is drawn 60 times per second.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2009, 07:14:28 am »
But do I know the difference, are you frickin' kidding me? 

Ooops I meant to say draws the screen 15 times per second. 

You were saying ?
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2009, 08:30:03 am »
Jeffo,

:laugh2: :laugh2:

OOOHHHHH you got me there.   

You win, you proved me so wrong.  I know nothing about monitors.    I admit it fully.   You are oh so more important then me.

Now can you please stop acting like a maggot and go away?   

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Dj_Izumi,

I am curious about something.   Could alot of these problems be fixed with scan lines being more closely related to the original monitors?

Alot of the picturs that were presented with Xiou had the look of being fixed with scan lines that were giving texture and actually blocking part of the picture.   Could a more exact artist representation help at all?


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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2009, 09:02:47 am »
The simple truth is that you lack even the most basic understanding of the subject matter.

How is it that you plan on simulating arcade monitors when you don't know anything about them ?
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2009, 10:21:59 am »
I not going to get in the arcade monitor simulation debate.

But we are going to need a replacement for CRT monitors in the not too distant future, soon it will be impossible to buy CRT monitors new, and even with maintance and plenty of TLC older CRT monitors will not last forever. The largest 4:3 LCD you can get is a 20.1" which is equal to a 22" CRT in viewable area, all LCD & Plasma monitors larger than 20.1" are wide screen so aren't really suitable to arcade cabinet setups, so we need to look to else where for a large 4:3 monitors solution.

My bet is on Rear Projection Screens (not monitors) combined with some form of projector, be it halogen bulb, LED, or Laser. Since rear projection screen are little more than a sheet of glass or Lexan with a special surface treatment, 25-27" screens could be produced on a small scale and still be low enough in cost to be practical (note: I didn't say cheap). Then a standard 4:3 ratio projectors could be used to project the image onto the screen at the desired screen size.

Using a rear projection screen also opens up the option of intergating FTIR Mutli Touch into a cabinet, with little more than a ring of IR LEDs around the edge of the screen and a webcam converted to IR only detection, you would have full support for touch screen games and also the possiblity of running a touch screen interface for your front end.



Another trick possible with a rear projection screen and projector setup, is to have 1:1 ratio screen, and then rotating the projector to project either a horizonal or vertical image on to the rear of the screen.

All of this is possible with current technology, but cost is still a limiting factor for now, but with the not to distant death of CRT, it looks to be the most promising path for the future of large 4:3 ratio monitors.


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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2009, 10:39:23 am »
The simple truth is that you lack even the most basic understanding of the subject matter.

How is it that you plan on simulating arcade monitors when you don't know anything about them ?

QFT!

Genesim, it's time you bowed out.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2009, 11:32:39 am »
Not black..."BLUR".."color bleed"..etc.

Studying the monitor and the supposed desired effects is what I am talking about.   Is one pixel really that noticieable in a 1600x1200 grid??
And how do you expect to draw 'blur' with one row of pixels?  Agian, I'm telling you that if you want to somehow represent the minute details you see of a CRT close up, you're gonna need a LOT more detail than 1600x1200 to do it.  A LOT more.

I think we are talking about the whole picture...as far as the grid not being square then keep it even...4x4 and fill the rest in with black on top bottom or side.
And AGIAN, as I explained to you before, a large many arcade games do not even use square pixels when being drawn by the monitor and are drawing slightly rectangular pixels.  Agian an issues as LCD monitors generally are built with perfectly square pixels.

And the pixel would not be as you described the RGB would be in the middle as it is meant to be in its perfect state and the rest would be the bleeding.

Though I sure I have this wrong and this is only a minute observation without giving a whole lot of thought to how the mechanism could be duplicated.    You are probably right, it may take alot more resolution.   Of course don't forget the higher refresh rate.   Some of these issues could be a kind of "interlaced" quality.    Remember that something like 15 HZ monitor only draws 15 frames per second as opposed to a 120hz which is 8 more frames...couldn't some of the effect be made there?
15hz... Right.  Most LCDs probably can't even do 60hz then alone 120hz.  Oh, sure, the SIGNAL to most LCDs is sending 60 frames per second of data but that doesn't mean the LCD can draw 60 frames per second.  Know what 'Response Time' is in LCD terminology?  It's the measure of how long it takes for the LCD pixel to phase into a different color as ordered.  An LCD with a 20ms response time can only actually change colors 50 times per secont at the most, REGUARDLESS of how fast it's told to change colors.  It would actually start changing to the next color before it was done with the last color.  There are faster monitors but money becomes an issue.


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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2009, 11:41:19 am »
Not black..."BLUR".."color bleed"..etc.

Studying the monitor and the supposed desired effects is what I am talking about.   Is one pixel really that noticieable in a 1600x1200 grid??
And how do you expect to draw 'blur' with one row of pixels?  Agian, I'm telling you that if you want to somehow represent the minute details you see of a CRT close up, you're gonna need a LOT more detail than 1600x1200 to do it.  A LOT more.

I think we are talking about the whole picture...as far as the grid not being square then keep it even...4x4 and fill the rest in with black on top bottom or side.
And AGIAN, as I explained to you before, a large many arcade games do not even use square pixels when being drawn by the monitor and are drawing slightly rectangular pixels.  Agian an issues as LCD monitors generally are built with perfectly square pixels.

And the pixel would not be as you described the RGB would be in the middle as it is meant to be in its perfect state and the rest would be the bleeding.

Though I sure I have this wrong and this is only a minute observation without giving a whole lot of thought to how the mechanism could be duplicated.    You are probably right, it may take alot more resolution.   Of course don't forget the higher refresh rate.   Some of these issues could be a kind of "interlaced" quality.    Remember that something like 15 HZ monitor only draws 15 frames per second as opposed to a 120hz which is 8 more frames...couldn't some of the effect be made there?
15hz... Right.  Most LCDs probably can't even do 60hz then alone 120hz.  Oh, sure, the SIGNAL to most LCDs is sending 60 frames per second of data but that doesn't mean the LCD can draw 60 frames per second.  Know what 'Response Time' is in LCD terminology?  It's the measure of how long it takes for the LCD pixel to phase into a different color as ordered.  An LCD with a 20ms response time can only actually change colors 50 times per secont at the most, REGUARDLESS of how fast it's told to change colors.  It would actually start changing to the next color before it was done with the last color.  There are faster monitors but money becomes an issue.[/quote]

Jeffo,

:laugh2: :laugh2:

OOOHHHHH you got me there.   

You win, you proved me so wrong.  I know nothing about monitors.    I admit it fully.   You are oh so more important then me.

Now can you please stop acting like a maggot and go away?
Or how about you sit down, shutup and listen to him?  You WANT 'CRT flicker', the largest majority of CRT displays in an arcade system are drawing the entire screen at 60 half fields per-second (With an interlaced signal in a 60th of a second the TV only draws every OTHER line, then does the other set in the other 60th of a second).  This is tied to the electrical grid of North America running at 60hz itself.  So that 'flicker' itself is at 60hz, if you want it, you should know it.  He's pointing out that you havn't a clue what you're talking about, which you don't.

Dj_Izumi,

I am curious about something.   Could alot of these problems be fixed with scan lines being more closely related to the original monitors?

Alot of the picturs that were presented with Xiou had the look of being fixed with scan lines that were giving texture and actually blocking part of the picture.   Could a more exact artist representation help at all?
Yes, but to do it right and simply, you'd need an LCD screen that matched the original arcade games resolution.  NO ONE is going to produce 21"-27" LCD monitors which only have a pixel grid of like 256x224 which Pole Position used.  If you could however that would be a huge step towards achiving your stupid idea.  It's just that it's not going to happen.  Ever.  Unless you ordered such monitors as custom original fabrications, and you would need one for each unique resolution, so no switching between different games that run at differnet resolutions.  I couldn't even imagine what it would cost to do such productions.  For sure however it would be well, well, WELL beyond the means of anyone on this forum.  You'd need the kind of budget that Sony or RCA have in their R&D departments just to experiment with stuff to get it done.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2009, 04:21:34 pm »
DJ_Izumi,

As far as Jeffo, if there is something I obviously don't know then why not teach me, like say in all honesty I am wrong instead of calling me a "moron" and personally attacking me from the first response.

What is there to gain by putting a scarlett letter on me because I get one aspect wrong.   I may not have it EXACTLY right, but it is a complete insult to say that I know nothing about the subject matter.   That is why I am asking about it on this topic.

ASKING.    Not telling....ASKING.   Get it one more time.   ASKING.   

Why act like a complete and utter tool and saying I should sit down and SHUT THE F UP?

I am hitting things back and forth to get answers so I can make my point further.    Anyone coming on and saying it can't be done...it cannot happen...it won't ever happen....isn't proving a thing.

Hitting ideas back and forth is how you and I learn.

Anybody coming in with absolutes are the ones guilty of thinking they know it all.   I learn alot from my friends on any kind of project that I do because they come in with simple deductive reasoning and yet knowing nothing about the subject matter.    I respect their intelligence and that is why I bounce ideas off of them instead of telling them to sit down and shut the hell up.

Back to the subject matter.   I admit that I am wrong about the detail and alot of what I post is from sneaking away at work and simply trying to get information.   Not sitting around thinking how will someone sharp shoot me next.   Hopefully we can move on from this part because I can be wrong about something and yet be corrected in a civilized manner and still get something out of the discussion.   

What annoys me the most is when I obviously got alot of information 100% correct(which is why Blanka threw a fit and deleted his posts) was I given credit...HELL NO.    Lets see if you can do the same as I move on to each and every one of your posts.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Quote
And how do you expect to draw 'blur' with one row of pixels?

How are you figuring ONE ROW?   The screen refreshed 120 times.    While code has to be written, I got that but I am asking....doesn't that leave alot if you accept that there is a 120hz refresh rate?   on top of that it is two rows and for every pixel that is a hell of alot more to work with.   Each pixel is like a part of a bigger canvas.   If the pixel is drawn correctly it can give more detail then just arbitrarily saying what is the big deal.   

But I am not putting this in stone.   Just bouncing an idea if you want a reminder.    Don't throw a fit because I don't have it right at all.   I am entitled to this much.

Quote
And AGIAN, as I explained to you before, a large many arcade games do not even use square pixels when being drawn by the monitor and are drawing slightly rectangular pixels.  Agian an issues as LCD monitors generally are built with perfectly square pixels.

That is perhaps the biggest problem and I am sorry I misunderstood.   I thought you were talking about the 6x4 grid being rectangular.    I didn't catch about the circle.    This is something I have always missed, but your metal slug screen shots explain alot in this way.   

Quote
Most LCDs probably can't even do 60hz then alone 120hz.  Oh, sure, the SIGNAL to most LCDs is sending 60 frames per second of data but that doesn't mean the LCD can draw 60 frames per second.  Know what 'Response Time' is in LCD terminology?  It's the measure of how long it takes for the LCD pixel to phase into a different color as ordered.  An LCD with a 20ms response time can only actually change colors 50 times per secont at the most, REGUARDLESS of how fast it's told to change colors.  It would actually start changing to the next color before it was done with the last color.  There are faster monitors but money becomes an issue.

I got a big problem with this.   I thought the response time was down to 1ms response and there are true 120hz.      Where do you get your information that LCD's aren't doing this?   The Sony models are premiere and have been getting very good reviews in that capacity.    An excellent article outlines some of this talk.

http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/lcd-response-time.html

But here is the problem.   Aren't we talking about games with a lower frame rate anyway?   Surely the quality has to be at least many many more frames redrawn right?   

I am not talking about "most", I am talking about the newest LCD's.   Quoting old technology is useless...shouldn't we move into the future?

Your 20ms response and  can't do 60hz seem archaic to me.

Quote
You WANT 'CRT flicker', the largest majority of CRT displays in an arcade system are drawing the entire screen at 60 half fields per-second (With an interlaced signal in a 60th of a second the TV only draws every OTHER line, then does the other set in the other 60th of a second).  This is tied to the electrical grid of North America running at 60hz itself.  So that 'flicker' itself is at 60hz, if you want it, you should know it.  He's pointing out that you havn't a clue what you're talking about, which you don't.

I remembered Plasma trying to compete with the 450hz moniker which was decieving because it has nothing to do with the refresh rate.   All Plasmas are 60hz.   Alot of this is going on here.    You can't seem to get your mind around that LCD's are true 120hz.   

My only arguement is that is twice the refresh rate which means it could draw a frame of flicker if that desired...or it could draw two.    Because of the mechanics of an LCD it is not prone to the same kind of redrawing problems.   By the way instead of pointing out what I don't know...stick to the topic ok?  Show some respect....even if you know so much more then me.   That is why I am trying to learn.

Quote
If you could however that would be a huge step towards achiving your stupid idea.  It's just that it's not going to happen.

Where the hell is this coming from?   My STUPID idea?   I don't think my idea is STUPID at all.

You see the world as flat, I see that ideas happen with a seed.  I thought we could have a civilized discussion.   

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2009, 04:33:20 pm »
DJ_Izumi,

Quote
And AGIAN, as I explained to you before, a large many arcade games do not even use square pixels when being drawn by the monitor and are drawing slightly rectangular pixels.  Agian an issues as LCD monitors generally are built with perfectly square pixels.

But of course if one was going to use this idea then why not use the LCD's that have circular pixels?   If a company is working on a prototype why would they not go this route? 

Baby steps brother.

Quote
For sure however it would be well, well, WELL beyond the means of anyone on this forum.  You'd need the kind of budget that Sony or RCA have in their R&D departments just to experiment with stuff to get it done.

You assume alot. 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 04:35:45 pm by genesim »

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2009, 05:05:54 pm »
Quote
You can't seem to get your mind around that LCD's are true 120hz.  

Only the more expensive ones. The overwhelming majority are 60hz.

One way to further improve the effective refresh rate is to use "super-sampling", and is becoming increasingly common on high-end sets. Since the blurring of the motion occurs during the transition from one state to another, this can be reduced by doubling the refresh rate of the LCD panel, and building intermediate frames using various motion compensation techniques. This smoothes out the transitions, and means the backlighting is turned on only when the transistions are settled. A number of high-end sets offer 120 Hz (in North America) or 100 Hz (in Europe) refresh rates using this technique.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2009, 05:19:35 pm »
I kind of look forward to the future scarcity of Cathode Ray Tubes's.   ;D

It will be interesting to see the lengths that people will go to put a scavenge a proper CRT and then possibly manufacture completely new chassis for them.   It'll be a whole new level of work towards authenticity in our  hobby. 

Even now, I respect a guy who has restored an OEM CRT more than a guy like me who is using a completely period incorrect CRT in his cabinet.  After all, all CRT's are not created equal, and what I have in my cab (a 15khz capable PC monitor) was simply not available when the games were new. 

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2009, 05:21:01 pm »
What annoys me the most is when I obviously got alot of information 100% correct(which is why Blanka threw a fit and deleted his posts) was I given credit...HELL NO.    Lets see if you can do the same as I move on to each and every one of your posts.

That isn't what happened at all.

What happened is that Blanka gave you correct and detailed technical information, you repeatedly told him that he was wrong, and then he gave up trying to get you to listen.

For my part, I have always given you FULL credit -- when you suggested that nobody designed sprites with colour bleed in mind, I gave you full credit. When you suggested that monitors were designed around programming limitations, I gave you full credit. When you confuse such basic issues as scan and refresh rates, I give you full credit.

My only arguement is that is twice the refresh rate which means it could draw a frame of flicker if that desired...or it could draw two.   

See ... that's me giving you credit ... even though you have already said that arcade monitors refresh 15 times per second ...  :afro:

The pattern has been the same in every one of your posts going back -- if somebody provides *factual* information that falls outside of the realm of your *guesses*, then you get upset, call them names and accuse them of attacking you.

Well, me and my maggoty ass have forgotten more than you know about the subject at hand and aren't going anywhere.

You seem to think that those who disagree are zealots and nothing could be further from the truth. I would bet that I have more LCDs in this house that you do.

 I *love* LCD technology and am anxious to see what folks like RickN have in store in that regard.

Stop saying ridiculous ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about people dealing in absolutes.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 05:32:19 pm by CheffoJeffo »
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2009, 05:45:05 pm »
Quote
But of course if one was going to use this idea then why not use the LCD's that have circular pixels?   If a company is working on a prototype why would they not go this route?

Baby steps brother.

 
 Man, you really are out of it.   They dont make LCDs with Round pixels.


 You take a person who is trying to school you a little info,  then turn it around
and try post as if you know more than he does!

 
 You cant even understand the stuff that is being shared with you... yet you claim
you want to learn.   You surely didnt google the info that was given to you to
work with yet.   All you do seem to make time for is being an  A**.


 Just because you Want something to work does not mean it will work.  That is
like thinking  "well, there is no reason why cars cant go 80,000 mpg today!  I mean,
come on,  we are in 2009!  Teach me why they cant, cause I dont believe you. 
YOUR WRONG!  You just dont want to believe!  You dont know what you are
talking about!  Im SURE SOMEONE CAN DO IT BUTTFACE!  Stop calling me names
and picking on me,  BUTTFACES!  Teach me BUTTFACES!  You are WRONG!" 

 (continue cycle infinitely)


 And people are not going to spend oodles of time trying to teach you anything
with the crappy attitude you have.   And being that what they have tried to
share... you do not understand and do not research to the point of
understanding.   It simply just gives you more ammunition to make more wild and
off base assumptions that are Wrong to the extreme.

 
 If you want Any kind of respect.. and want to be token seriously, then you better
do your homework instead of mouthing off at those who do know 10 fold on the
subject over your own knowledge.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2009, 05:52:09 pm »
When Cheffo and Xiaou2 agree about a topic, what does it mean ?

 ::)
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2009, 06:59:25 pm »
But of course if one was going to use this idea then why not use the LCD's that have circular pixels?   If a company is working on a prototype why would they not go this route?
So your solution is something which doesn't exist and you only guess that it could exist?

...Good plan.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2009, 07:06:32 pm »
But of course if one was going to use this idea then why not use the LCD's that have circular pixels?   If a company is working on a prototype why would they not go this route?
So your solution is something which doesn't exist and you only guess that it could exist?

...Good plan.
Hey, give the guy some credit.  His dad took apart an Atari 2600, his neighbor had an Intellivision and he even mentioned Colecovision.  He's been playing video games for 30 years.  He has to know more than everyone else.

 :bat

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2009, 07:20:23 pm »
When Cheffo and Xiaou2 agree about a topic, what does it mean ?

 ::)

Tell me about it. It takes a rare breed to make me side with (hell, root for) Xiaou2.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2009, 07:22:41 pm »
But of course if one was going to use this idea then why not use the LCD's that have circular pixels?   If a company is working on a prototype why would they not go this route?
So your solution is something which doesn't exist and you only guess that it could exist?

...Good plan.
Hey, give the guy some credit.  His dad took apart an Atari 2600, his neighbor had an Intellivision and he even mentioned Colecovision.  He's been playing video games for 30 years.  He has to know more than everyone else.

 :bat

I owned a Pong, my cousin had an Odyssey, and my brother had the clap......

Because of this, I can see 300 colors you can't.

PROVE ME WRONG!!

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2009, 08:26:05 pm »
Thus my analogy of 'using digital effects to simulate film looks obvious' remainds true.

I can understand his motive.  It's true LCDs arn't quite what you saw on that 60hz flickering CRT in the arcade and an LCD wouldn't be EXACT to that experiance, especially with the resizing issues I illustrated, however I think it's one of those situations where you have to 'bite the bullet' and get either a CRT rarity issues or an LCD with it's limitations.

However, to be honest, if you're going through the expects to build a freakin' arcade cabinate, getting a CRT tube for it is a worthwhile expense.  On the other hand, some might prefer a 4:3 or 16:9 LCD if possible because there ARE advantages there as well.


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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2009, 01:30:09 am »
Quote
Only the more expensive ones. The overwhelming majority are 60hz.

Right.   Noone said this hobby was inexpensive...especially if you are trying to improve it.

XXXXXXX

As for circular pixels...they don't exist...well I don't know but here is the patent for it. 

Wikipedia also has a picture of them in use.   That is just with a 10 minute search.

http://www.patents.com/Liquid-crystal-display-device-fabricating-same/US7440060/en-US/

xxxxxxx

Jeffo,

You are disguising the truth.   Blanka and Xiaou2 both said that phospher lights were the importance of a LCD monitor...I quickly pointed out that was merely a way of illuminating the source of color change(the liquid crystals and the polarizing filters).

His pretty pictures had nothing to do with the discussion because it said what I had already stated earlier(which I outlined in JFK fashion).

When I pointed this out and the fact that any light source(like me saying fire or the sun.  :laugh2:) could be used(but not practical) he blew his top and deleted his posts.   Truth hurts I guess. 

That is what happened.  No lie there.

The rest of this crap is complete garbage that isn't even worth adressing.

Yeah I don't get that a frame rate is not the same as a redraw rate on a computer...gee and I thought those frames went to heaven when I hit pause and pacman seemed to jump.

XXXXX

Dj

For my purposes I like all kinds of games and I think you are short shifting the capability of good software programming, at this point most people aren't listening.

120hz is a hell of alot of frames(when you consider that they aren't a 1:1 relationship to the code to begin with) for a software engineer to play with.

But yeah, I like modern games too, but this crap of "I KNOW THIS" and "I Have That" is so old.   Actually it is entertaining.   I can see it now...the pocket protector duo high fiving each other.  :laugh2:



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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2009, 01:39:37 am »
By the way Xiaou2 your example doesn't even make sense.

The LCD would be going the faster rate...and the solution is to make it look crappier.

I was never saying that people are WRONG...I am discussing...the problem with some of the people is that it quickly dissolves into....

NAH NAH NAH you have STUPID ideas...you are a MORON...    :laugh2:

By the way, Xiaou2..care to explain the round pixels to me again?   Weren't you the one preaching to me with the pretty pictures with the CRT color bleed fix.   Real hard to flip that around huh for the opposite effect to the viewer?   Ummm that humble pie sure tastes good doesn't it.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2009, 01:54:17 am »
But of course if one was going to use this idea then why not use the LCD's that have circular pixels?   If a company is working on a prototype why would they not go this route?
So your solution is something which doesn't exist and you only guess that it could exist?

...Good plan.

UH OH...I think someone's gonna have to do some apologizing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLPC_XO-1

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2009, 02:13:56 am »
UH OH...I think someone's gonna have to do some apologizing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLPC_XO-1

Those arn't round pixels, they are round subpixels.  If you'd read the brief on it in the article you linked as well, it's not a way that future technology is going but rather a means of cutting production costs and giving it abilities necessary for it's low end task.  It even has to blur color data to try and mask over artifacting.

I'm also at an utter loss as to why you even think that round pixels would even enable CRT simulation on an LCD display or would even be relevent to the issue.  Furthermore, how a 120hz refreshrate would be benifical, however I appears you think that the visual image should flicker and shimmer like sloppy Jell-O.

What's next?  Pre-rendred transparent MAME overlays to simulate screen burn?

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2009, 02:49:33 am »
 :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

I knew it.

You said there weren't round pixels.   I see...so because they are masked..then that doesn't count.   :laugh2: :laugh2:  They must not be round to the human eye in the end???

Wow, we are really splitting hairs here.

Flicker was just an idea because CRT's have it.   Same goes for color bleeding and the like.


As for the extra refresh rate...well one of things I thought of is to gives degrees of color change with the extra frames.   Perhaps even shuttering an image that gives the distortion.   Not a really serious idea, but not knowing anyone that has tried it, I don't know what the results would be.

Quote
What's next?  Pre-rendred transparent MAME overlays to simulate screen burn?

Wouldn't surprise me here with some of things I have read.   Reminds me of people preferring the scratchy sounds on records.

The point of round pixels is that you won't get a stairstepping effect like you do with the blown up rectrangular pixel.    The fact that a good upscale could give a very desirable effect.   Have you seen these monitors?   Do you know for a fact it wouldn't work??

The "subpixels" are nothing more then a fancy of way of saying they are displayed differently.   Can the tech be improved...absolutely, but it is the beggining of an idea and not all bad for emulating a low end monitor.

Of course the apology should come with you saying that the round pixels do not exist...yeah they do, because ROUND is what they end up being. 

If I can't use my example, then how can you use the particle beam submask of a CRT monitor.   That image is obviously changed as well..but that doesn't count?

Never get confused with apparatus/standard vs ability.   Rectangular was a choice, not a necessity as is proved by the patent.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2009, 02:59:27 am »
No, three round subpixels in that arrangement combine to create straight rows.

Why would someone simulate color bleed?  A good CRT monitor isn't going to colorbleed to any degree that would be signifigantly noticable to the user.  Same for wanting the colors to apparently phase at 120hz.  A good, well maintained CRT isn't going to flicker enough that the colors change between drawing cycles.  If it did it'd be a sign that the tube needs replacing or another fault has occured.  Not only that if the flickering is signifigantly noticable at close range, you'd risk making people experiance eye straign, feeling ill or even experiancing epileptic seizures.

You seem to be hell bent on simulating the shittiest of conditions of a CRT display, why?  Would you like Happ to produce pre-broken buttons to accurately simulate a poorly maintained cabinate better?

On that note, I'm not posting in this thread anymore.  You've basicly gotten locked on a 'stupid idea' and are investing a great deal of thought into the stupid idea while not bothing to considder that the idea is stupid to begin with, cause you think it's freakin' brilliant.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2009, 03:20:57 am »
Ok.  Sorry for my "stupid" idea.

I am not hellbent on creating the color bleed in the way you think.  I am talking about Xiaou2's example of how the color combining was made beneficial in the "Turbo" screen shots.

Let me ask you one more thing before you go away crying(for what reason I do not know...geez discussing makes you so upset??)

Wouldn't "round" pixel representation of the original code blown up at least interpolate better then rectangles?

As for CRT flicker, I have never run across one that wasn't noticeable.    Even on the high end...it is the nature of the beast.


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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2009, 04:49:32 am »
The more I read about it, the idea sounds even better.

Obviously LCD's can have even smaller resolutions and with a larger dot pitch perhaps a happy medium can be achieved.

I always wondered what the arcade games look like on those crappy LCD monitors that come with portable dvd players.    Add to it the round pixels and surely you got have at the least a better representation??

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2009, 05:14:55 am »
Obviously LCD's can have even smaller resolutions and with a larger dot pitch perhaps a happy medium can be achieved.
They better have high resolutions. If they would make a 320x240 27 inch LCD screen, it would look ridiculous when displaying 204x256 content. And probably those pixels are perfect square too at >1mm dot pitch. Maybe OLED in a tridot pattern would look realistic if it is combined with scanline driver logic.

On the other hand, if you stretch both signals to 1600x1200, you can't barely notice which pixels are 4 pixels wide and which ones are 5 pixels wide.
I made some samples in Photoshop, and 1600x1200 really has enough room to render a very accurate tridot simulation. Only thing that bothers me, is that all emulators have some sort of scanline emulation, but none of them are done right. So programmers: either do it right, or keep us looking at those 5x5 pixel blocks (which in fact I do like too).
This is how it should be done:
- Upscale the image to 1600x1200 and apply scanlines DEPENDING on the vertical resolution. So not 4 pixel scanlines, or 2 pixel scanlines, but scanlines that match the vertical resolution. Now you sometimes see that Donkey Kongs bars are 2 scanlines on the bottom and 3 on top. Or that Pac's maze edges are 2 scanlines wide at some parts of the screen. This because of rounding to multiples of 2,3 or 4. You can even render the image at 5 times magnification, then apply a 5 pixel scanline and then use OpenGL's antialiased scaling to stretch it too the monitor resolution.
- Do the scanline-transition with preservation of colour and brightness. Now scanlines mostly overlay black lines. Wrong: a white scanline is invisible, it looks like it sticks together with the next scanline, whereas dark grey scanlines look very narrow with big separation between them. This way you can maintain full brightness and colour accuracy on an LCD or any other high res screen.
- After upscaling to the full resolution of the screen, you start the overlay of tridot patterns. At this moment tridot AND scanlines are always added in one pass. It should be two pass. The tridot has to optimised for the full resolution, and take into account the RGB subpixels of an LCD screen (a tridot monitor can have a similar amount of tridot subpixels as an LCD screen, yet support low 240 scanline resolutions), where the scanline overlay was optimised for the original resolution.
- This tridot overlay has to be done in a similar way as the scanlines are done. So full white stays full white. Try to experiment with the layer filters in Photoshop, and you will find a combination that adds a tridot pattern, yet does not alter brightness and colour. Again today's solutions cap the brightness with applying the tridot patterns by overlaying black masks and capping each tridot to 1 primary colour, which reduces brightness by 70% or more.

So if you want to do it good, have the scaler turn the 224x256 game 1120x1280 first, then add 5 pixel scanlines, scale the result to 1200x1600, and apply a 1200x4800 subpixelmask iin the last pass to make the best LCD tridot simulation possible. For a videocard this procedure is peanuts, and can be done 300 times per second easily, so we don't have to fear much delay from that.

Bleed, flicker and other 'non perfect' characteristics of CRT tubes can be stolen IMO. I just would like a nice upscaling, that's enough.


Here you see the very dim result of MameOSX rendering a 4x6 tridot simulation which gives a 2 scanline wide maze-egde and 3 scanline wide pills at some points. Also the 100% blue of the lines should at least put all blue LCD pixels lit. Now 2 out of 3 are dim, and that is the reason the image is so dim.
The pills have a brightness of 85% normally, with the overlay it is 44% in LAB colourspace (brightness component on a scale from 0-100). On an absolute scale the brightness is much lower, but thanks to the 2.2 gamma curve 44% does not look too bad. See for your self how "half" the brightness in Photoshop feels to you:
Brightness differences:
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 06:40:57 am by Blanka »

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #59 on: April 28, 2009, 06:36:31 am »
Very nice post!!

Blanka, I say this with my sincerest apology..I didn't mean to offend you.   Perhaps the battle got too heated and even if I felt strongly you were actually one of the one's not making it completely personal.

I enjoyed the discussion and as others point out there is much that I have to learn.   

I still know the phospher coated bulb is not the same mechanism as CRT or Plasma... it is an illuminator...important yes...but not the most important source.   >:D

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2009, 07:09:51 am »
This is a result from a Photoshop conversion of Pac Man to scanlines with unaltered colours and brightness. The process of converting is similar to press-rasterizing in linear patterns:

Try to view it on a 1200x1600 screen at 1:1.
This is only the display of the scanline effect, no tridot simulation yet. I have no good mask for that.
If you view the image in a seperate browser window, and rescale that window, you get an idea how it can look on say 1024x768 or 800x600 too.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 07:12:21 am by Blanka »

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2009, 07:46:18 am »
couple of questions,

genesism......do you know there is an edit button? it allows you to change your post without having to double or triple post. Its a very basic function of a message board that you cant seem to grasp.

Ok , so round pixels....... what fills in the gaps between them?

I think every time you say the word "code" from now on, you should get a one day ban.
If you're replying to a troll you are part of the problem.
I also need to follow this advice. Ignore or report, don't reply.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2009, 08:30:46 am »
Two more examples of my Photoshop filter:
Galaga 88

Golden Axe

Now find someone that can run this on the GPU.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 08:35:25 am by Blanka »

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2009, 08:38:53 am »
I tried to edit and it won't let me passed a certain time.   MODIFY is what I use.   So I don't know about this "I can't seem to get" crap.   You are the first that has actually criticized me.

As what fills in the gap.  NOTHING.   Shouldn't have to, it would be simply black.

What fills the gap on a regular CRT image?   A circle is a circle.   Or have you missed the photographic dots all these years?

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2009, 08:58:04 am »
genesism......do you know there is an edit button? it allows you to change your post without having to double or triple post. Its a very basic function of a message board that you cant seem to grasp.

IIRC, he had that privilege revoked, so it's not his fault.
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2009, 09:13:14 am »
genesism......do you know there is an edit button? it allows you to change your post without having to double or triple post. Its a very basic function of a message board that you cant seem to grasp.

IIRC, he had that privilege revoked, so it's not his fault.
It IS his fault for pulling that b.s. in the other thread that prompted Saint to remove the right to do this.  I understand your point about why he can't do it, but don't overlook the fact that it was his actions in the first place that caused this situation in the first place.

It is most definitely his fault. 

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2009, 09:15:06 am »
Stop causing trouble!  ;)
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2009, 09:25:50 am »
So let me get this straight, I am the only one that cannot edit immediately?    I can modify..but only after a set amount of time.

Now to be clear, I would never modify to somehow change history, so I don't see where the abuse is.

I am not a liar and it is a complete coward to change a statement to make someone else look like a liar.   If that was why the privledge was removed from me...then I don't see why.

Though I have pm'd Saint about this and I was told that was not the case.    Modify...but only after a set amount of time.   

Of cours how do my actions dictate others?    I am pretty new to the board (relatively) so how can the few times I posted change all the rules?   

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #68 on: April 28, 2009, 09:33:24 am »
There have been several people that have had their post editing rights taken away. You're not alone.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #69 on: April 28, 2009, 09:35:32 am »
There have been several people that have had their post editing rights taken away. You're not alone.
I can think of at least three others and that's within the last couple of years.  One just happened in the last week or so.   ;D

It's always entertaining to watch someone blow up.   :P

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #70 on: April 28, 2009, 09:49:09 am »
It's always entertaining to watch someone blow up.   :P

Especially fun when you have a hand in it. ;D

(I'm talkin' to YOU, Hemi!)

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2009, 10:06:08 am »
Do you think people that get banned still visit and read the boards?  I know some of them start posting again under different names.   

:blowup:

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2009, 10:08:45 am »
You've got to assume so. Sometimes they just blame their brother.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #73 on: April 28, 2009, 10:20:46 am »
Back on point for just a minute if I may....

I still have no idea what he wants to happen.  Is it different Mame configurations (based on software changes that getting "coded") to match different monitors?  Besides arguing the idiocy of what monitors can and can't do, why not just email Mamedev and tell them to implement this.  Or, better yet, go post this at Mameworld.  They'll be very receptive to this.   ;D

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #74 on: April 28, 2009, 10:30:45 am »
Weird...especially not being notified.   I didn't realize I was abusing it.    At least I am thankful for one modify.   Some of what is written wouldn't make it to print...I post...then do some work...then come back and post.

While it does get me into trouble on the "fact chart" it also keeps it fresh.   I don't have any deep regrets over what I have written and I stand by most everything.   It is a discussion board, not the holy bible.

That said having a groupie like Jeffo following me around makes it all the more special...but like some obsessed fans it gets a little scary.

Rest assured, if I am banned, then I am banned, but I will never post under another name.   genesim is my moniker on several boards and my game name online.   It will never change.

Incidently Hoopz is that blow up of the smiley from Metal Slug?  It kind of looks like it.

xxxxxxxx

Back to the discussion.   What is the best program for interpolating then?    I have never even tried the options on MAME32 Plus.    But if there is something better I am all ears.    

As for the rest, round pixels would certaintly help..even if it doesn't give exact results.   I head read about round pixels before and that is why I initially posted.   masked or not if done correctly it can still give desirable results.    The cheap monitor I gave as an example could be just the beginning.

You gotta admit the stair stepping has alot to do with the square pixels.    Hence the name on Metal Slug looking so bad.

The last picture..while not right, I think is incredible.   Imagine it being done with more distinct round pixels.   Could help not have the straight edges in his face.  (Incidently Hoopz if you don't understand then read what I wrote and actually tell me the part you don't understand...instead of going.. I don't get it...I don't get it...How constructive is that?   Even if I am an "idiot" filled with "stupid" ideas...what good is it to put me down for it?   What you makes you so high and mighty?   I would hope you treat others just a little better then that.   Do you call your wife(or boyfriend..not sure here) an idiot if she doesn't come up with an idea that seems fitting to your oh so high standards?)

The main problem I have with a CRT monitor is its low resolution and it not doing newer games complete justice.    It may be expecting alot, but the high resolution pinball games along with say Doom3 or Call Of Duty are a must.

I may be on the out on this but roller ball plus Tron stick is alot more fun to me then the keyboard and mouse.    It is a much better feel.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #75 on: April 28, 2009, 10:34:14 am »
That said having a groupie like Jeffo following me around makes it all the more special...but like some obsessed fans it gets a little scary.

That's what I'm here for.

And, please refer to me as CheffoJeffo or Cheffo so as to avoid confusion with the user Jeffo, who has his own issues to deal with.  >:D
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #76 on: April 28, 2009, 10:42:43 am »
You really think anyone is going to get confused?  I like Jeffo because it reminds me of Jethro which fits you to a tee.   Ok?  You can at least give me that pleasure.

Its the least you can do for admittingly being a stalker boy.

XXXXXX

Incidently when looking at the last Metal Slug pic I look at the lettering and I think to all the people here...you honestly think an LCD can have software to have better smart interporlation then that???

What gets me is so many act as if a LCD is incapable of presenting a great picture. 

Dime to dozen...other then the obvious rounding errors in having straight lines where there should be circlues(again non-improved software)....the original vision does not look better to me at all.    If I had a choice I would go with 4 over one.   

That is why I prefer LCD over CRT.   CRT has Hum...flicker.....etc. etc.    You see oh so sweet nostalgia, I see inherent color problems and a monitor that is just plain bad.

But we all have our own tastes.   Just wonder why so many on here try to convince me...and claim they don't care so much...but yet they keep posting trying to prove me "wrong".   Pocket protectors  UNITE!

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2009, 10:50:07 am »
Now, are you just talking about arcade CRTs, or are you talking PC CRTs as well? My 19" PC CRT in my cab can do up to 1600x1200, though I run it at 640x480@60. I have no flicker or bleeding and the picture is too clean for proper arcade emulation, though at least at 640x480 I get hardware scanlines.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 10:58:04 am by Ginsu Victim »

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #78 on: April 28, 2009, 11:04:02 am »
You really think anyone is going to get confused?  I like Jeffo because it reminds me of Jethro which fits you to a tee.   Ok?  You can at least give me that pleasure.

Its the least you can do for admittingly being a stalker boy.

Well, I warned him that something like this could happen when he registered (here and on a number of other boards), so knock yourself out. If he has a problem, I'll let him take it up with you. Don't blame me if he stuffs you in an empty cab, installs a 48-in-1 and sells you on eBay.

I'm not so much a stalker as I am someone who keeps the belligerent Kool Aid man honest while he runs around telling people that they are wrong when, in fact, he is the one who, more often than not, is the one who is wrong.

What gets me is so many act as if a LCD is incapable of presenting a great picture. 

See -- you are framing things to fit your argument instead of letting people's statements stand on their own.

I *love* LCDs -- by quick count I have 7 actively-used LCD displays in my home.

Quite simply, for me, they aren't the appropriate choice for displaying classic arcade games. Having said that, if people don't have a problem with how the games look, that they don't have a problem. I certainly wouldn't try to play BluRay discs on an arcade monitor !

As to more accurately simulating CRT effects on an LCD, I don't think there is a need to do it in MAME. I would love to see something done in hardware for folks using real boardsets, but I doubt that the market is there to support such an endeavour.

But we all have our own tastes.   Just wonder why so many on here try to convince me...and claim they don't care so much...but yet they keep posting trying to prove me "wrong".   Pocket protectors  UNITE!

People keep posting because you keep making horribly blatant mistakes and then telling people that they are wrong.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 11:07:54 am by CheffoJeffo »
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #79 on: April 28, 2009, 11:08:20 am »

Incidently Hoopz is that blow up of the smiley from Metal Slug?  It kind of looks like it.

It depends on what type of monitor you are using....  I built mine after reading Wikipedia for 4 minutes about Cliff Gardner (the brother-in-law of Philo Farnsworth who literally invented television).  

I figured that since I read wikipedia, had played video games my entire life, and have a keyboard to post my thoughts, that makes me qualified to build a monitor as I have to know everything about it contrary to what the experts know!

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #80 on: April 28, 2009, 11:09:14 am »
When is this going to Post Hell? It can't come soon enough.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #81 on: April 28, 2009, 11:17:52 am »
Go read about Cliff Gardner and Philo Farnsworth.  I'm posting relative information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo_Farnsworth

http://www.farnovision.com/chronicles/tfc-part03.html

 :)

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #82 on: April 28, 2009, 04:28:26 pm »
Quite simply, for me, they aren't the appropriate choice for displaying classic arcade games.

Word.
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #83 on: April 28, 2009, 06:29:36 pm »
CRTs simply make better arcade monitors than LCD's... did we REALLY need multiple posts with multiple pages of responses to come tot his conclusion?  Does anyone think they can convince Tranq Hawkfan...er Genesim differently?  Really?   
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #84 on: April 28, 2009, 07:48:58 pm »
Ginsu Victim(love that name by the way...best knives EVER),

With newer CRT's yes effects are minimized, but there is no such thing as a CRT monitor without color bleed.   The best makers of CRT will tell you that the nature of the display will always have some kind of color bleed and flicker.    The effect can only be "minimized" or "greatly reduced".

Clearly as I stated quite a few times, the way to get a proper emulation is to get the square pixels to a circle and to get real interpretation of the original scan lines.   Emulating dot pitch can help though, but I think interpolation is a better way to go.

xxxxxxxxx

Jeffo,

Keep telling yourself how relevant you are with your 7 LCD monitors...so that means you know more too right?   

You keeping me "honest" is a laugh coming from someone that is an outright liar.    You keep stating something over and over like the Blanka incident with no intent to tell the truth.  I wrote what happened and you like a Rainman ignore that.

Much like you don't know the edit situation.   

This is the best thing for a Jeffo hyena.  IGNORE.   

And for the last time, I don't tell people they are "WRONG", it is more like I do for my job.   I present evidence and go from there.    Not just telling them, but showing factual information.    Not just an opinion...or even usueless information that has nothing to do with the debate.

There is no "right" answer when it comes to someone's choce for a display.    And there is nothing wrong with seeking to improve.    It costs nothing to have a discussion.

Of course a religious cult is another thing all together.   To some people it just plain hurts.    Yeah send the post to hell.   Forget it happened.    Of course Jeffo can't do it.   My name will keep getting muttered like a senior citizen that has war memories.   Jeffo doensn't have his own indentity, he merely mirrors what others says and tries to seem like he knows at all what he talks about.    Go ahead with your bad self.  :applaud:


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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #85 on: April 28, 2009, 08:03:31 pm »
Ginsu Victim(love that name by the way...best knives EVER),

Your knowledge of knives is apparently unsurpassed by your knowledge of LCDs. One thing about being "Cheffo" is that you need to know your cutlery.

Keep telling yourself how relevant you are with your 7 LCD monitors...so that means you know more too right?   

Actually, my point was that I don't hate LCDs as you continually try to establish. I'm rather fond of LCDs.

But, yes, I do know more than you.

This is the best thing for a Jeffo hyena.  IGNORE.   

Oddly enough, one of us has people actively ignoring him ... and it isn't me.

And for the last time, I don't tell people they are "WRONG"

Do you deny a post in that other thread that you started with "WRONG. WRONG. WRONG." ? Did I misread ?

Jeffo doensn't have his own indentity, he merely mirrors what others says and tries to seem like he knows at all what he talks about.

You got me there ... I'm just another worthless button pusher ...

 ::)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 08:36:29 pm by CheffoJeffo »
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #86 on: April 28, 2009, 08:06:38 pm »
I wrote what happened and you like a Rainman ignore that.

I'm pretty sure that this is not something that you want to say to me ...
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #87 on: April 28, 2009, 08:59:45 pm »
Cheffo showed admirable restraint in his last posting. Gene argue your points if you want but mellow the tone.
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #88 on: April 29, 2009, 12:05:26 am »
Restraint...is that what you call it?   I am done here with this post.   I have proven without a shadow of a doubt that a religious belief cannot be debated.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #89 on: April 29, 2009, 02:20:05 am »
As to more accurately simulating CRT effects on an LCD, I don't think there is a need to do it in MAME. I would love to see something done in hardware for folks using real boardsets, but I doubt that the market is there to support such an endeavour.

You mean like you use an ArcadeVGA board creating 15khz signals, and have a separate module do the upscaling for LCD?
No thanks. We have our 9800GT's doing nothing now, and with OpenCL at the horizon, it would be really easy to have mr. Ati or mrs. Nvidia take care of this.
Not a separate module that ships with VGA to DVI now, costs 200$ and is obsolete when the MPAA-DRM-Port is the new display connector standard.

What could be nice if there is a generic post-processing app that handles frames from all emulators and gives good scaling options to all apps at once. Kind of like Richard Bannister has done with "Emulation Enhancer" on the Mac.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #90 on: April 29, 2009, 04:38:56 am »
I can't help it.

I just have to know one thing. 

Why is ROUND pixels such a bad idea to help make the image on a LCD more faithful?   Why is this such a "moronic" "idiotic" "stupid" idea?

Andy at Ultimarc already tackles the different refresh rates with his Arcade VGA version 2 card.

If the original was drawn in circles and LCD draws in squares I think it is a no brainer that an improvement will be seen.

With all the name calling by others, I have never got this fundamental issue.

Of course the other issues like arguing over whether a phosper is as important on an LCD monitor(which doesn't exist in the color mechanism) and CRT pubic hairs on the screen being somehow programmed for down to it being like a Divinci code is even funnier....hell it is even funnier that my love for (original version that I got from Korea in the 70's) Ginsu knives is challenged.

Some people will go to any length I guess.

To me the low resolution LCD like the one I put up on the WIKI article just may give a desirable result.    Low resolution with artificial circular pixels.    Maybe not the final step, but the point is if that is what you want perhaps this could be a route to go.

Exactly like CRT...uh no, but neither are any specialized CRT's.   It is all splitting hairs.    It just depends on where you compromise the most.

But through all this LCD's look like crap...it was never my intention to "REPLACE" CRT's...rather to deal with the fact that they are being forced replaced...and knowing that the LCD display could be improved with better software.   Of course some would like to just keep comparing apples and oranges as if they are one and the same.  Hence the controlled screenshots of Xiaou2 and the obvious bias as opposed to taking an objective look at not how it is now..but how it could be if some thinking was involved.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #91 on: April 29, 2009, 05:58:27 am »
I'm using a 19in lcd monitor in my pony candy cab right now. Everything looks great so far although I'm sure some of that has to do with it only being a 19incher.

Esp.Galuda and newer cave stuff actually looks better on an lcd, personally.

The only problem I've had so far is trying to run a ps2 in the cab w/ vga.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #92 on: April 29, 2009, 07:08:25 am »
Restraint...is that what you call it? 

To be fair to you, perhaps didn't realize the gravity of the Rainman remark.

It is fairly common knowledge here that I have two children who suffer from Autism.


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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #93 on: April 29, 2009, 07:13:28 am »
As to more accurately simulating CRT effects on an LCD, I don't think there is a need to do it in MAME. I would love to see something done in hardware for folks using real boardsets, but I doubt that the market is there to support such an endeavour.

You mean like you use an ArcadeVGA board creating 15khz signals, and have a separate module do the upscaling for LCD?
No thanks. We have our 9800GT's doing nothing now, and with OpenCL at the horizon, it would be really easy to have mr. Ati or mrs. Nvidia take care of this.
Not a separate module that ships with VGA to DVI now, costs 200$ and is obsolete when the MPAA-DRM-Port is the new display connector standard.

What could be nice if there is a generic post-processing app that handles frames from all emulators and gives good scaling options to all apps at once. Kind of like Richard Bannister has done with "Emulation Enhancer" on the Mac.

Good points.

My thinking in the first place is that there are maybe a dozen folks who run MAME who aren't satisfied with the existing options. There are, however, many more people who are restoring with actual arcade hardware (e.g. not emulation) who are definitely not happy with LCDs as a solution but are facing an impending unavailability of new CRTs.
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #94 on: April 29, 2009, 09:00:52 am »
Quote
It is fairly common knowledge here that I have two children who suffer from Autism.

I will break silence to you to give you this much.   My utmost apology, and yes there is no way that I would deal such a low blow.

Lets squash the beef ok?   My fault percieved or not, you too had some harsh words.   It is all really stupid...there are so many more things in the world to worry about.

I think the biggest hurdle of admittedly many is the square pixel vs round.

The stair stepping and overall blocky mess is created with enlarging a display that is not meant to be magnified.    If one is going to start somewhere..then it would be at the least to get the pixel shape correct.   





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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #95 on: April 29, 2009, 09:33:19 am »
Serious question for you, genesim:
Who do you think would actually make an LCD with round pixels? Who is the idiot that wants to lose a LOT of money on such a ridiculous venture?

Don't read that as bias. From a business standpoint, it makes no sense for anyone to take on such an expensive niche item that most of the restoration crowd will balk at (because it still won't look right) and the general public has ZERO interest in.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #96 on: April 29, 2009, 10:29:55 am »
Did you bother looking at my link?  It has already been done.  The patent was just obtained last year...another link you didn't look at.   Simple masking.   No different then the reverse masking that is on Trinotron monitors pointed out by Xiaou2.

Contrary to popular believe, round pixels have been a desire to more then just the arcade community.   There are photography nostalgia dinosaurs that prefer to see their displays close to a photographic print as well.   Hence...round dots as opposed to square.

If it can make the emulation of old games look better, then why is this a bad thing for THOUSANDS of programs?

Why in the hell would anyone want what is on Metal Slug in boxy letters rather then having a much better interpolation?

LOSING MONEY?   Why would this be at all.   It is just an alternative method to display pixels.    Why is this a "rediculous" venture.   LCD is going to be the standard for a long time to come you can believe that.   The crumbling economy will put a damper on any monitors dethroning the giant.

Where do you get that it wouldn't look any different?   And you know this how??   

Incidently what you really don't get is that it probably can be done with software as well.   I would like to know if it is out there, that is for sure.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #97 on: April 29, 2009, 10:44:39 am »
Did you bother looking at my link? 

Yes, the moment you posted it.

Quote
Contrary to popular believe, round pixels have been a desire to more then just the arcade community.   There are photography nostalgia dinosaurs that prefer to see their displays close to a photographic print as well.   Hence...round dots as opposed to square.

I never said it was ONLY aimed at us.

Quote
If it can make the emulation of old games look better, then why is this a bad thing for THOUSANDS of programs?

Better than standard LCD, maybe. Better than CRT? No.

Quote
LOSING MONEY?   Why would this be at all.   It is just an alternative method to display pixels.

Too niche for a company to gamble on.

Quote
Why is this a "rediculous" venture.

If you're going to quote me, at least spell it right.

Quote
LCD is going to be the standard for a long time to come you can believe that.

I'm a fan. I have a 19" LCD for my PC and I love my 32" 1080P LCD, but I don't play old games on it.

Quote
Where do you get that it wouldn't look any different?   And you know this how??

I never said it wouldn't look different. It just won't have the look the arcade crowd is after. No one is going to make an LCD display with a low enough resolution to satisfy us.

Quote
Incidently what you really don't get is that it probably can be done with software as well.

Where'd I ever say it couldn't? It could, but it will take a pretty high res monitor and a high spec system.

Now.....

Are you done with this thread or not? You said you were a few posts ago.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #98 on: April 29, 2009, 10:52:38 am »
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #99 on: April 29, 2009, 11:31:41 am »
Wow even down to making fun of my typo?

Here let me make you feel better.  CRT's are better then LCD.   CRT are the only way to go to get the true authentic arcade feel...look...sexual satsifaction.   Believe that all you want.

Now getting back to what my main purpose of the whole thread is about...LCD will be the replacement for CRT's if you want to get a new display.

So you admit freely that it could look better then current LCD configuration.  GOOD.  Great, outstanding.

Now on to the second tier of the discussion(if you want to call it that since you are incapable of speaking without insulting me).

The resolution doesn't have to be lowered if scaled correctly.   Multiple pixel representation if you will.   

Quote
I'm a fan. I have a 19" LCD for my PC and I love my 32" 1080P LCD, but I don't play old games on it.

And that is you, that is how you feel.   SO WHAT.   Glad to hear it.   Glad you like what you like, now quit telling me what monitor I should like.

Quote
Where'd I ever say it couldn't? It could, but it will take a pretty high res monitor and a high spec system.

First you say no round pixels are going to be made(but actually they are with the mask), now you give in to the software too.   So the end result is round pixels displayed.    Then you agree that it would look better.   

So now you say that there is Zero interest in it...uh keep telling yourself that.

Arcade gaming can be had just fine with a LCD monitor and many people use it..including arcades.    There is nothing wrong with wanting to improve how original games look on it.   

Quote
Are you done with this thread or not? You said you were a few posts ago.

Whats it to you?   So not only are you going to imply what I should like, but you are going to imply that I shouldn't post too?   Bud, I will post as long as I am allowed or as long as I care.   You don't like it...TOUGH.    Go somewhere esle.   Noone forced you to respond, and seeing that you added nothing but agreeing with me, it was pretty futile anyway.

It is all opinions anyway.   CRT monitors I think are crap.   While they may give a better representation of crappy code/graphics it still doesn't change the fact that there are many many shortcomings.   Who are you to say that your OPINION is any better then mine, or hell any more informed. 

A million people can say something looks better and a million more can say but it still looks like CRAP.   Old isn't always better and in this case the supposed benefits IMHO are overshadowed by the problems that I have talked about many times over.    Hell the glare alone is enough to make me want to quit on it.   Call it stupid, call it ignorant...but seeing everything but the actual display is annoying as hell.   Colors are meant to be seen not masked with sunlight....and yes I like to play more then in pitch black.

What is so comical to me is a bunch of posters aren't even listening to the discussion of how to make it better, you cry about cost and the like when it has nothing to do with it.   The question is HOW...that is the beginning...if it even goes anywhere.    Not just for LCD but for tons of future displays.   Tackling these problems..even just on paper can give insight to future innovations.

Not just, I am an idiot because I don't bow down to CRT displays only.   Yet you say this while you have your pathetic non original CRT's that aren't showing it 100% either from your non original PCB's(if you play more then 5 games) from your non original joysticks(again if you enjoy more then 5 games) with your non original cabinets(if you play more then 5 games...perhaps 10 for the people that like to collect in their own homes).   






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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #100 on: April 29, 2009, 11:43:16 am »
Who are you to say that your OPINION is any better then mine, or hell any more informed. 

Let me be the first ... his opinion is better and more informed than yours.

I'm CheffoJeffo, I don't have my own identity and I approve this message.

 ;)

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #101 on: April 29, 2009, 11:44:55 am »
Cheffo,

Thanks for the really cool link.   You know when I look at each picture I say to myself...WHO GIVES A edit by saint. Don't work around the autocensor. Rule #2 (http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_message_rules.html).

I respect the splitting hairs, but at the same time I still prefer Call Of Duty AND Pacman.    I don't want to run from room to room or throw out a display on the fly.   I like my Tron stick with trackball for FPS..but I also like the rest.

I look at the blocks and say....damn, but it still looks great.  :)   Most people are going to feel the same way...if they even care to play the old games.   Most people that gamed in the old days are still going to go..man thats pretty cool.    I laugh ---my bottom--- off when I say the side by sides.   Ooooh...that looks just so terrible.  ::) ::) ::)

And Cheffo...that is your opinion, and yes I do consider the source.  ;)  It still doesn't mean diddly.  His opinion cannot be more informed about MY OPINION.   Only I am the most informed on MY OPINION.   We feeling it yet?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 02:36:55 pm by saint »

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #102 on: April 29, 2009, 11:46:37 am »
Yet you say this while you have your pathetic non original CRT's that aren't showing it 100% either from your non original PCB's(if you play more then 5 games) from your non original joysticks(again if you enjoy more then 5 games) with your non original cabinets(if you play more then 5 games...perhaps 10 for the people that like to collect in their own homes).   

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #103 on: April 29, 2009, 11:49:59 am »
Thanks for the really cool link.   You know when I look at each picture I say to myself...WHO GIVES A edit by saint. Don't work around the autocensor. Rule #2 (http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_message_rules.html).

Apparently GinsuVictim does ... and apparently he's not alone ...

Sorry, I have to run and play a game of Robotron on my pathetic CRT in my original cabinet with my original joysticks.

 ;)

EDIT: Rule 2 ... just saying ...
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 02:37:53 pm by saint »
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #104 on: April 29, 2009, 11:53:30 am »
Oh wow..he is not alone.   Yeah lots of people run in packs.   Nazis, KKK...etc.   To simply have a bunch of people that agree, does not make it right.   Matter of fact, in some cases like listed it can make them very very wrong.

I have a feeling when another breakthrough like Andy's card for LCD comes this way you won't be gaffawing so bad, matter of fact you won't even have the guts to admit that you were wrong.

Higher resolution is not a bad thing when softwared correctly...it is a very very good thing.  CRT' need to be put to rest, and thank goodness it is happening faster all the time.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #105 on: April 29, 2009, 11:55:47 am »
Man....are you done yet? The amount of crap you've got wrong about what I've said and how I've been toward you....wow.

saint....you really thought this thread was worth keeping?

Hi....I'm whitey....and I apologize.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #106 on: April 29, 2009, 11:58:17 am »
Nazis, KKK...etc. 


DING DONG THE THREAD IS DEAD, NOW GO HOME AND DO SOMETHING MORE PRODUCTIVE. 


 :laugh2:

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #107 on: April 29, 2009, 12:04:18 pm »
Nazis, KKK...etc.

Wow......just.....wow.

You went THERE?

REALLY?

Holy crap, you're more bat ---Cleveland steamer--- insane than anyone realized.

Thanks for confirming it.

Time to lock this thread or toss it into Post Hell.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #108 on: April 29, 2009, 12:11:50 pm »
No the thread went dead the moment I was personally attacked from the 3rd or so post in.

Now even after a supposed ammends there is more personal attacking.

"People disagree with you, so they must be right" nah nah nah.  

Incidently I am home.   And no I wasn't calling anyone here Nazi or KKK...but there does seem to be an angry mob.

All because I don't hug CRT's.   Of course the same was true when I defended Mortal Kombat over Street Fighter II and the same was true about my modification on the Tron joystick when I made a first try.  

If I discussed Ginsu knives the same thing would happen.   Unless you feel exactly as everyone else does and be a complete android in that way, then I will not get along.

But I have a little experiment.   New genesim.   Watch and learn.  

So for now, I really am sorry for saying that LCD is better then CRT in my opinion.   I have changed my mind.   They are the only display that should be around.   It is CRT from here on out.   I got my Multisync monitor from Wells Gardener on order...unless there is another one that I should have..but I have to get certain people to agree.   We don't think for ourselves here.   We must go with what the mob thinks.  

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #109 on: April 29, 2009, 12:15:30 pm »
Funny, this mob mentality crap you speak of, when I myself am working on putting a 20" LCD in my MAME cab soon. Not that I'm thrilled with the idea, but it fits my setup best.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #110 on: April 29, 2009, 12:19:58 pm »
OH NO!   What are you doing!!

You got to be a complete IDIOT for even thinking of that!!   What is wrong with you!!   What are you a MORON???!!?!?!?!?!?

Everyone knows that you have to have a CRT or you are a complete disgrace to the M.O.B.   Members Of Build your own arcade....against all LCD's!!!

And above all, don't you dare think of improving that display one bit!!   I wish I had a bat right now to completely destroy that thing....where is my Cheffo???
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 12:21:35 pm by genesim »

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #111 on: April 29, 2009, 12:26:32 pm »

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #112 on: April 29, 2009, 12:33:43 pm »
Where where???  LETS GET HIM!    I think I saw him with an LCD in his hands!!!

If not then he is trying to make a "LCD look more like a CRT"....he must be devoid of "a cogent posting from that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal".

Don't stop till he is dead!!   Heil CRT!

Message brought to you by the M.O.B.!

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #113 on: April 29, 2009, 12:34:33 pm »

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #114 on: April 29, 2009, 12:36:38 pm »
No, that is from the CRT M.O.B.   Where have you been?   Nazi's do not tolerate outside thought while persecuting jews.     

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #115 on: April 29, 2009, 12:39:01 pm »
Where where???  LETS GET HIM!    I think I saw him with an LCD in his hands!!!

If not then he is trying to make a "LCD look more like a CRT"....he must be devoid of "a cogent posting from that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal".

Don't stop till he is dead!!   Heil CRT!

Message brought to you by the M.O.B.!
Please don't quote me out of context.  I was merely pointing out that I was having trouble following your various points and was asking for clarification.  

Anyone for a couple of screenshots of the thread before it goes to PH?

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #116 on: April 29, 2009, 12:42:02 pm »
Quote
For once, I'm not trying to be an ass towards you yet.     I've yet to see a cogent posting from you that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal.

Right.  Sorry here is the whole quote.   You were very constructive.

You prefaced it...then proceeded to act in kind.



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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #117 on: April 29, 2009, 12:50:37 pm »
Once again, you quoted it out of context.  The smaller font "yet" was a joke hence the smiley, horned devil.

Take everything as a personal attack if you want but I was trying to get clarification on something.  You failed to answer it though so don't blame me for not following what you want from the software/hardware.

After three of these threads, I still fail to understand your point.  Would you, please, list them (succinctly) so everyone understands what you are posting about?

Personally, I think you've tried to say the following:

1. LCDs are superior to CRT displays
2. Games look/play/____ better on LCDs
3. Programmers did _____ because of ______ and CRT displays

For once, I'm not trying to be an ass towards you yet.   :P  I've yet to see a cogent posting from you that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal.



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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #118 on: April 29, 2009, 12:59:19 pm »
Oh wow that cleard that up completely.

So let me get this straight.   

I think a LCD's are superior to CRT so...I've yet to see a cogent posting from you that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal.

I think Games look play better on LCD's..I've yet to see a cogent posting from you that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal.

I think Programmers didn't account for each and everything nuance of a CRT monitor so..I've yet to see a cogent posting from you that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal.

Yes it was a personal attack and you can try to dress it up anyway you like.   You have done it in the past, and this is just one more example.   If someone doesn't think like you then they must be wrong.   Thye must be devoid of a "single thought working towards a particular goal".

Your "joke" wasn't appreciated.   Did I seem like I did?   If I would have told you I was offended would you have took it back...hell no.   You would do like you do now, blame me for not taking it the supposed right way instead of recognizing it for what it was.   A snide remark that was completely uncalled for.

If you had any guts you would admit your obvious crap behavior and issue the apology.   At least I am man enough to do it.   Of course certain people don't even give me an aknowledgement when I do reach out a hand.   Even more spineless behavior.



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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #119 on: April 29, 2009, 01:08:53 pm »
 I am sure if crt's went out of production some rich fella would eventually say hey lets bring these back and start making these monitors again since were the only one's doing it we could run a monopoly.
 
 I believe if I was the one & only company making/selling them the company would do rather well perhaps even better then any others becuase they are all competing over price's while were running the one and only monopoly for crts.

 I dont think they will ever go out of production for good becuase they still have a value and use even today and years to come.

 They may be dying out now but I am sure there will be at least one company out there smart enough to get very rich keeping them around becuase there not obsolete and still have a use.

 :dunno 




 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 01:17:46 pm by northerngames »

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #120 on: April 29, 2009, 01:10:20 pm »
I am sorry that you took it as a personal attack.  It wasn't intended that way, hence the little sarcastic devil.  

IMHO you got so worked up about "stuff" that your postings started to ramble.  I was asking what you were trying to convey and, obviously, it wasn't taken the way I intended.

In my defense, I think if you go back and look at how replies were constructed and can take out the information contained within (whether it applies or not is immaterial), I think it's very confusing and lacked focus.  You can pick out tidbits in various posts that are clear, but the overall message got lost.  It's understandable why it happened, but I'm simply saying it lacked clarity.  

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #121 on: April 29, 2009, 01:18:05 pm »
Oh wow that cleard that up completely.

So let me get this straight.  

I think a LCD's are superior to CRT so...I've yet to see a cogent posting from you that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal.

I think Games look play better on LCD's..I've yet to see a cogent posting from you that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal.

I think Programmers didn't account for each and everything nuance of a CRT monitor so..I've yet to see a cogent posting from you that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal.

Yes it was a personal attack and you can try to dress it up anyway you like.   You have done it in the past, and this is just one more example.   If someone doesn't think like you then they must be wrong.   Thye must be devoid of a "single thought working towards a particular goal".

Your "joke" wasn't appreciated.   Did I seem like I did?   If I would have told you I was offended would you have took it back...hell no.   You would do like you do now, blame me for not taking it the supposed right way instead of recognizing it for what it was.   A snide remark that was completely uncalled for.

If you had any guts you would admit your obvious crap behavior and issue the apology.   At least I am man enough to do it.   Of course certain people don't even give me an aknowledgement when I do reach out a hand.   Even more spineless behavior.

Actually, when I read Hoopz' post, I was wondering the same thing as him and was glad I wasn't alone in trying to figure out what you were getting at.

Your posts were all over the place at that time, jumping back and forth between different topics.

You take people disagreeing with you as an insult. It wasn't until I called you "bat ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- insane" that I'd finally said something that qualifies, though I was accused before that.

Why am I letting this fool bother me?

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #122 on: April 29, 2009, 01:37:36 pm »
Does anyone know what GeneSim's native language is?  Seriously.  I've only encountered one or two others who type in the fashion he types...   :dunno
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #123 on: April 29, 2009, 02:39:43 pm »
Thread's dead Jim.
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