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Author Topic: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors  (Read 21116 times)

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genesim

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LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« on: April 26, 2009, 08:02:00 am »
I feel like something like this should get its own topic.    And though I am sure this post isn't going to be the most popular I do have questions.

Lets take for example a game like Turbo which has great evidence that it was programmed for color bleed like Xiaou2 posted.

Now I do get some of the logic in saying that the artist didn't mean for it to be seen in the way represented with a new monitor...but perhaps not all is lost.

You figure in the dead center of a pixel the CRT monitor got that much right, so why can't the color blur be emulated?

The standard resolution of Turbo(and please feel free to correct me immediately) was something like 336/240.

On a UXGA resolution of 1600x1200 that leaves alot of pixels to work with to make this result.   Of course this is barring the black lines on the side...but my point is what is wrong with having a database of the different monitors resolutions and their apparent flaws?    Obviously to some the flaws are well liked, so are they really that uniform?   Could they be worth programming for?

You figure that even the color bleeding has to have a pixel measurement.   The bleeding would have to take up some kind space right?   Of course scanlines are an issue too, but I just wonder how much is too much.    How much before the purist say its enough.

Some have with the code because of MAME ....and others have because of joysticks...and to a smaller degree they have because of at least getting multisync monitors.     Where is it going to finally be enough to make that switch to the next generation.

Even with Laser TV's around the corner will they really dethrone the LCD?  Will OLED be able to either?   LCD will surely compete and color filters are a pretty old technology as well.   Will it ever really be obsolete?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 08:04:23 am by genesim »

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2009, 10:19:47 am »
LCD's will eventually be phased out, taken over by OLED, Laser etc.. or what ever else is on the horizon. However as far as classics go I personally feel that they are and will always be best viewed on a CRT. Sadly they are getting tougher to find.
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2009, 10:55:31 am »
On a UXGA resolution of 1600x1200 that leaves alot of pixels to work with to make this result.   Of course this is barring the black lines on the side...but my point is what is wrong with having a database of the different monitors resolutions and their apparent flaws?    Obviously to some the flaws are well liked, so are they really that uniform?   Could they be worth programming for?

You figure that even the color bleeding has to have a pixel measurement.   The bleeding would have to take up some kind space right?   Of course scanlines are an issue too, but I just wonder how much is too much.    How much before the purist say its enough.

Some have with the code because of MAME ....and others have because of joysticks...and to a smaller degree they have because of at least getting multisync monitors.     Where is it going to finally be enough to make that switch to the next generation.

A more relevant question is whether or not the "purists" will ever use LCDs anyway -- before we grind through another pointless series of debates, let's recognize that most of the people who you are looking to satisfy/impress aren't ever going to put an LCD into an arcade cabinet, so why bother ?

For everybody else,

If you don't have a problem with how the games look or play, then you don't have a problem with the way the games look or play.


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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2009, 12:36:32 pm »
After three of these threads, I still fail to understand your point.  Would you, please, list them (succinctly) so everyone understands what you are posting about?

Personally, I think you've tried to say the following:

1. LCDs are superior to CRT displays
2. Games look/play/____ better on LCDs
3. Programmers did _____ because of ______ and CRT displays

For once, I'm not trying to be an ass towards you yet.   :P  I've yet to see a cogent posting from you that conveys a single thought working towards a particular goal.


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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2009, 01:06:00 pm »
Personally, I think you've tried to say the following:

1. LCDs are superior to CRT displays
2. Games look/play/____ better on LCDs
3. Programmers did _____ because of ______ and CRT displays

You forgot
4. Hey, maybe we can get some programmers to make LCDs look more like CRTs!

 :dizzy:

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2009, 01:10:32 pm »
You forgot
4. Hey, maybe we can get some programmers to make LCDs look more like CRTs!

Which has nothing to do with real arcade machines, only emulation. If I want to restore a classic cab, I ain't dropping an LCD in it.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2009, 01:36:30 pm »
You cannot be seriously saying that CRTs are hard to find.   :dunno
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2009, 01:53:55 pm »
You cannot be seriously saying that CRTs are hard to find.   :dunno

Well, since most folks aren't manufacturing new anymore, that day isn't too far away ...
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2009, 04:25:11 pm »
The standard resolution of Turbo(and please feel free to correct me immediately) was something like 336/240.

Actually (and depending on the convention used), it's 208x248.


Quote
On a UXGA resolution of 1600x1200 that leaves alot of pixels to work with to make this result.   Of course this is barring the black lines on the side...

What black lines? Overscan lines? If the monitor is vertically oriented, there are no black lines. If the monitor is horizontally oriented, then the modeline is different, to make up for the greater number of horizontal lines than vertical. They're still there, just the guns aren't firing over them.
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2009, 04:28:18 pm »
No I am not saying any of those things.

An LCD monitor has alot of good qualities.   I wouldn't say all of the things have surpassed current CRT's, but they sure have older ones.

The problem is software.

Never said they play better...look better...or even are better.

But what I am saying is that LCD's can look a heck of alot better then currently presented.   Even if you hate LCD's one would have to admit that.

If not, what is the problem?

Higher refresh rates can be taken advantage of...I bet.   Honest to goodness discussion of the problems would at least help me to understand.

For my money contrast ratio seems to be just fine with 10,000 to one.   It looks totally black to me.    

Refresh rates...1ms response.  I don't see blur anymore.

No reflection...etc. etc.  

Just trying to really really understand.

To me the "turbo" screen shots look good in one way, but some of the problems are there and a CRT monitor does not age gracefully.   Give me separate stripes to have WHITE whites or grey road vs the pink/garbled mess that is obviously a problem.

My dad paints for a hobby and I understand how a non flat canvas can give you percieved 3D effects...great.  So why not program for it?

Hoopz,

I don't recall specifically posting about this issue.   Matter of fact, this is really the first time I have discussed it the same way.    I guess I want answers even if it is laced with other stuff.

Ummon,

Actually I was talking about the non used pixels if the scale up isn't congruent.  Thats all.   Thanks for the correction...looks like alot more pixels to work with to make the anomolies that people enjoy.

For all, there are quite a few people using LCD monitors in their arcade, and it is growing all the time...if people keep building.     Sure there are people that are purist..and believe it or not, I do respect those types(who knows I may one day be one of those...I doubt it..but you never know)...still it doesn't make the other way impossible.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 04:30:08 pm by genesim »

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2009, 04:38:46 pm »
You cannot be seriously saying that CRTs are hard to find.   :dunno

Show me a website where I can buy a brand new 19'' CRT CGA for 150-189.
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2009, 04:51:11 pm »
I know most major companies do not stock them anymore and places like Sony don't even handle plasmas.

The tech for bad or for good is as dead as Julius Ceasar.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2009, 05:31:28 pm »

 You can not make any judgment on the Look of the Turbo arcade pics, because,
unlike the mame direct screen 'dumps'...  Turbos arcade monitor snapshots were
token with a camera.   
 
 And, anyone knows that when you try to take a good picutre of a standard tv, it
almost always is garbage. (unless maybe you have an incredible camera)

 The Road looks great on an arcade monitor.  Much more depth because of Texture
effect.  Turbo on a pc/lcd monitor look flat and like garbage.

 Until you have actually played a few old school games from the 80s on a
real arcade monitor... your opinions have no weight to them at all.
 
 Unlike myself, who has owned a  37" 1080p  lcd...  AND  who owns several
arcade machines... as well as a 34"  1080i  sony hdtv  (CRT).

 

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2009, 06:28:44 pm »
Arcadeshop.com sells some 19" CGA arcade monitors.

http://arcadeshop.com/parts.htm#Monitors

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2009, 07:31:00 pm »
Quote
Until you have actually played a few old school games from the 80s on a
real arcade monitor... your opinions have no weight to them at all.

And I have played plenty.   I admit that I didn't sit there with a magnifying glass either.

I agree with your assessment that good pictures are hard to take.  And me being an MK nut...even that had a 3D look because of scanlines and what not.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2009, 08:43:17 pm »
Sadly, my exuberance in the other thread has resulted in genesim's glorious display of ignorance (not understanding the difference between scan rates and refresh rates ... sorry ahofle) being lost to readers of this thread.

In the meantime, however, it should be pointed out (as I did in the thread that I got PHd and the last series of threads that genesim posted about this in) that legitimate folks (e.g. people who actually know something about the subject matter) are working on the "LCD replacement" issue and that we would all be interested in what they have to say.
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2009, 09:31:12 pm »
I don't have money to stock up, supposidly they are going to be done soon.. I'd really hope they would make them for another few years so I can bulk purchase then about a dozen, just in case.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 12:18:44 am by mrclean »
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2009, 10:03:40 pm »
Jeffo,

What the hell are you talking about...because I said KILO???

Yeah I admit I got a sampling rate mixed in(I talk music too on another board)...because I don't sit around saying the lingo on an everyday effort.

But do I know the difference, are you frickin' kidding me?    Do you not remember us talking about Andy's arcade vga card and me specifically getting it to get an LCD to fake the odd MK display??   Then you quote it to me like it is something completey new.

Yeah real good work there inspector.

Now please stop the crap and don't get this topic deleted even though that seems to be your goal to some how "out" me.   

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2009, 11:03:39 pm »
There is probably only one thing I need to conceed here.  Arcade games run at different resolutions and CRTs can vary the resolution at which their guns are drawing where as LCD screens are locked to their own native resolution.  Put anything other than the native resolution to the LCD and it looks like crap.  Also LCD screens all have a pixel aspect ratio of exactly 1:1 (Square) where on CRT screens it can vary.  NTSC TV's for example have a 10:11 PAR.

This is where the truely tricky part comes in; Resizing.  You resize things you blur them, you make them fuzzy and sharp or without a resize filter that 'smooths them' it insteads makes them look chunky and offset.  So Pole Position which runs at a resolution of 256 x 224, that's a ratio of 24:21.  There is basicly no way to view this on a LCD screen with 1:1 PAR pixels without either A) Accepting that your view will look 'taller' than it did in the arcade.  B) Accepting some blurring as it's resized to 'look right'.

Not to mention that unless you accept some letter/pillar boxing and only resize to exact multiples of the original resolutionl (IE; 1024x896).  This is actually what I did for Datyona USA on the Model 2 emulator.  It runs at 496 x 384 so I added a resolution of 992 x 768, so I could double the 2D sprites exactly while enjoying a higher resolution 3D experiance.  If I say, ran the game at 1024x768 the sprites would need to be stretched slightly and it would show.  They wouldn't be as 'crisp' as they would be at the native resolution or a double or quadropling of the dimensions they were rendered at.  Since I do use CRT PC monitors, I just 'stretched' the screen out a bit using the controls and made it fit the 4:3 frame of the monitor and it looked fine.

So if you are locked to a specific resolution and aspect ratio on ANY display you are going to either run into degradation/blurring by resizing or have to endure some black frames and incorrect aspect ratio changes.  This isn't exclusive to LCD, Plasma and most other technologies that use an unchangable grid for it's pixels will face this.  Of course many people won't notice this.  Many people don't care about some blurring as the image is scaled up to fit the monitor's reslution.  Some people use interpolators to smooth out the sprites as they're scaled up and they're happy with this.

However for those who do want the experiance that is 'exactly like the CRT that was in the cab that was in the arcade with I was just twelve years old!' I don't think it can be done.  You'll just be blurring and fuzzing crap artifically and probably fail to accomplish the desired results.  A database of filters to make it 'just right' would also be a HUGE source of debate if only cause any effect of the filter is purely perceptual and likely to vary one person to another.

Probably the only way to get the 'exact CRT feel' of an arcade cab is to put a CRT inside it.  Anything else will be crap.  And I bet that someone would totally put lots of effort into making an LCD replicate 'CRT Flicker' and in the end it's just make people feel like throwing up.  ...Hell, I feel like that after spending too much time in Windows on Safe Mode on dual 21" CRTs at 60hz. :X

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2009, 12:10:17 am »
You have an excellent observation and I am feeling it...one problem.

Why do you have to change the native resolution?  Again, software to utilize the extras pixels doesn't have to be "blurry".   Scale up correctly and the results can be very hard to tell the difference.   Never underestimate the power of a good programmer.

That and of course using black bars on the sides to keep it correct...but hey why not do a Disney touch with the Disney view to fill out the sides...hmmm like artwork???   I know I know..it has been done...but maybe actual code as opposed to an overlay.   

I don't agree that it is all "crap" though.   The key is if looks good enough...not perfect.   We have accepted less on other things, but it is taking that first step of which gets us closer to the goal...whatever your goals may be.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2009, 01:10:32 am »
Why do you have to change the native resolution?  Again, software to utilize the extras pixels doesn't have to be "blurry".   Scale up correctly and the results can be very hard to tell the difference.   Never underestimate the power of a good programmer.
Well, you COULD build an LCD screen that has the exact pixel aspect ratio and resolution as your game.  Which would probably get as close to the original CRT as you possibly could.  ...Of course fabrication costs of such unique one-of or short run LCD screens would make it utterly impractical.

The only sort of filter that even resize without just blurring things would be interpolation; Something which is far from perfect and in some cases has a benifical effect can also be detrimental.  The problem is when you resize you need to 'fill in the blanks'.  If one pixel was red and the next was blue, but now you resized it and now it needs to make a pixel BETWEEN them somehow halfway between red and blue it's gonna need to it somehow.  This is where thing get blurry or where the sprites get jaggidy in resize like the walls in a game of Doom.  Interpolation could help but advanced techniques are SERIOUSLY heavy in processing demands.

That and of course using black bars on the sides to keep it correct...but hey why not do a Disney touch with the Disney view to fill out the sides...hmmm like artwork???   I know I know..it has been done...but maybe actual code as opposed to an overlay.   

I don't agree that it is all "crap" though.   The key is if looks good enough...not perfect.   We have accepted less on other things, but it is taking that first step of which gets us closer to the goal...whatever your goals may be.

That's the thing.  The games arn't SUPPOSED to be letter boxed.  They are all supposed to fit in a 4:3 frame (With some exceptions and of course the vertical screen games use a 3:4 ratio)  This is because pixels are not always square, on a CRT the aspect ratio of the pixels themselves can be changed arbitrarily.  So on an LCD just to get the games frame aspect ratio right you need to resize it to correct for the limitation of a 1:1 pixel aspect ratio.

For the example;

This is Metal Slug at it's native resolutoion of 304x224 which is ALMOST a 4:3 resolution. In it's native resolution on an LCD it would need to be surrounded by a GIANT black frame.  It'd be a little tiny window of gaming.  Obviously it MUST be resized for LCD or any other technology that is stuck at a native resolution.




Here is the same image resized using Nearest Neighbour to a standard desktop resolution of 640x472, so just imagine two 4 pixel thick bars at top and bottom.  It's actually almost fine.  But look at the blocks closely.  The pixels arn't quite square and are a bit off sized in some areas rather than perfect.  You can see 5 and stuff that some rows of pixels are actually now one or two pixels thicker than other rows because the machine had to fill in the gap somewhere and using this resize method it just picks the nearest pixel and uses it's color to fill in the gap.




Bilinier filtering... Well any filtering like this will just look like blurry crap.  This ain't what you saw on the NeoGeo at the arcade.




So what's the next option?  Interpolation which works in some cases and not in all.  They try to 'smooth out the lines' but it also loses that 'pixely goodness' that a 90s or 80's arcade machine had.  As Metal Slug features some very well painted sprite backgrounds and objects that make very careful use of the colors, interpolation actually degrades this image signifigant and makes it strangly 'warpy'.





On simpler objects using interpolation like HQX can work wonders.  But this is mainly image 'improvement'.

Before:


After:


Filters like this can smooth out sprites and make them look very clean and soft without looking blurry.  They are often employed by emulators and are popular.  However smoothing like this is NOT what you were looking at in the arcades, is it?

All this talk is JUST on the topic of trying to make your old low res arcade games fit high resolution LCD monitors.  We're not even getting into replicating flicker or scanline gaps which would be an entirely different burden.  The only way that such resizing can be done perfectly is in exact multiples.  I can take a 512x386 image and use nearest neighbour to run it on a 1024x768 LCD and it will have been resized PERFECTLY.  It will look sharp and clean as hell because every original pixel now is just occupying a 2x2 grid of pixels.  But this isn't a situation that you arn't likely to luck into.  So resizing MUST be done and will cause some change of some sort to the image to make it fit.  Unless using exact multiples of the original 2x, 4x, 8x and such you're in a dead end.  Somewhere the difference needs to be guessed and 'rounded off' to make it fit.

So I think that attempting to accurately replicate the visual imge of a CRT low res screen on a high res LCD is likely impossible or, more specificly, so utterly difficult and expensive that it would be far, far, FAR easier and cheaper to just use an apropriate CRT screen in all situations.

LCDs have advantages over CRTs, size, weight, power consumption, not killing you via massive electrical shock, no emploding when dropped, but CRTs still hold some advantages.  They can be flexable in the resolution they display, they have much less issues with viewing angle, they're more durable and they are simpler in operation.

What you want reminds me of the filters people use on digital video to give it a 'film effect', adding glow, grain, random hairs, dust and noise, flicking... But it always looks fake.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2009, 01:44:29 am »

 The problem with the filters is that they smooth everything... Including things that
are not meant to be smoothed.

 Many things like rough textures are meant to be jagged... but, the filter engine
smooths them to look soft anyways... because it does not know how to discern
what should be rough and what should be smoothed.


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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2009, 02:42:32 am »
Quote
because it does not know how to discern
what should be rough and what should be smoothed.

Hence the idea of having a specific software for a specific monitor.

Letterbox is not ideal.   I understand that, but as CRT's become rarer they may not be a cost effective measure.

As resolution gets more and more many of ideas presented can come to be...with proper software.

Even emulating the faults like wanted blurring and what not can be done on a database of monitors..much like MAME is for the code.   Maybe it is a pipe dream, but it would be nice.   

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2009, 05:14:20 am »
And I'm saying that any such arrangement of filters would likely fail to have the desired effect.  Any of the 'crispness' that low resolution games have on their native monitors would probably be lost in the attempt.

What you want could actually maybe be done; But it would require VERY accurately rendering a CRT screen including even the little itty bitty tiny gaps BETWEEN the pixels even.  Such could not be replicated on LCD monitors with the resolution we have available.  For such finite and subtle precision of what's NOT there you would probably require a high resolution display technology the likes of which doesn't exist yet.  This is additionally true since I doub't many would care enough about such a set of filtering and processing for enough to interest be there to warrent even attempting it.

Just get a CRT if you want it to look like a CRT.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2009, 05:24:56 am »
I guess it will be have to be made to get anyone on board.   Seeing is believing I guess.

To me having 7 pixels horizontal by 4 pixels vertical EXTRA for every pixel (if using 1600 by 1200 resolution)to creat such changes is a hell of lot to work with.   Good programming could surpise you quite a bit.   

Quote
But it would require VERY accurately rendering a CRT screen including even the little itty bitty tiny gaps BETWEEN the pixels even.

And I have never suggested otherwise.  That is what the extra pixels could be used for.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2009, 06:22:46 am »
So... Representing a single pixel on a CRT that is slightly rectangular using a 7x4 grid of square shaped pixels?  That would look HORRIDLY stretched outsideways.

It would also look AWEFULLY dim.  Each pixel I presume would be like this;

XXXXXXX
XRXGXBX
XRXGXBX
XXXXXXX

With this layout only 21% of the grid is actual color with the rest being black or whatever other color you fill it in.  So it's just gonna look all sorts of dark and stupid and ugly.  You'd maybe make out an image if you crossed your eyes or something.

I think that you are grossly overestimating the size of the 'gap' between subpixels and whole pixels of any display.  Which is why I said that to do such a simulation accurately would require SIGNIFIGANT resolution.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2009, 06:47:45 am »
Not black..."BLUR".."color bleed"..etc.

Studying the monitor and the supposed desired effects is what I am talking about.   Is one pixel really that noticieable in a 1600x1200 grid??

I think we are talking about the whole picture...as far as the grid not being square then keep it even...4x4 and fill the rest in with black on top bottom or side.

And the pixel would not be as you described the RGB would be in the middle as it is meant to be in its perfect state and the rest would be the bleeding.

Though I sure I have this wrong and this is only a minute observation without giving a whole lot of thought to how the mechanism could be duplicated.    You are probably right, it may take alot more resolution.   Of course don't forget the higher refresh rate.   Some of these issues could be a kind of "interlaced" quality.    Remember that something like 15 HZ monitor only draws 15 frames per second as opposed to a 120hz which is 8 more frames...couldn't some of the effect be made there?

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2009, 06:57:21 am »
Ooops I meant to say draws the screen 15 times per second.   I am sure I am going to get roasted over that mistake.

I guess what I mean is that all those extra seconds could draw the anomolies if programmed correctly?  Is this even possible?

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2009, 07:05:25 am »
Ooops I meant to say draws the screen 15 times per second.   I am sure I am going to get roasted over that mistake.

15KHz is the horizontal scan rate, not the refresh rate (which is typically 60Hz).

The screen is drawn 60 times per second.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2009, 07:14:28 am »
But do I know the difference, are you frickin' kidding me? 

Ooops I meant to say draws the screen 15 times per second. 

You were saying ?
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2009, 08:30:03 am »
Jeffo,

:laugh2: :laugh2:

OOOHHHHH you got me there.   

You win, you proved me so wrong.  I know nothing about monitors.    I admit it fully.   You are oh so more important then me.

Now can you please stop acting like a maggot and go away?   

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Dj_Izumi,

I am curious about something.   Could alot of these problems be fixed with scan lines being more closely related to the original monitors?

Alot of the picturs that were presented with Xiou had the look of being fixed with scan lines that were giving texture and actually blocking part of the picture.   Could a more exact artist representation help at all?


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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2009, 09:02:47 am »
The simple truth is that you lack even the most basic understanding of the subject matter.

How is it that you plan on simulating arcade monitors when you don't know anything about them ?
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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2009, 10:21:59 am »
I not going to get in the arcade monitor simulation debate.

But we are going to need a replacement for CRT monitors in the not too distant future, soon it will be impossible to buy CRT monitors new, and even with maintance and plenty of TLC older CRT monitors will not last forever. The largest 4:3 LCD you can get is a 20.1" which is equal to a 22" CRT in viewable area, all LCD & Plasma monitors larger than 20.1" are wide screen so aren't really suitable to arcade cabinet setups, so we need to look to else where for a large 4:3 monitors solution.

My bet is on Rear Projection Screens (not monitors) combined with some form of projector, be it halogen bulb, LED, or Laser. Since rear projection screen are little more than a sheet of glass or Lexan with a special surface treatment, 25-27" screens could be produced on a small scale and still be low enough in cost to be practical (note: I didn't say cheap). Then a standard 4:3 ratio projectors could be used to project the image onto the screen at the desired screen size.

Using a rear projection screen also opens up the option of intergating FTIR Mutli Touch into a cabinet, with little more than a ring of IR LEDs around the edge of the screen and a webcam converted to IR only detection, you would have full support for touch screen games and also the possiblity of running a touch screen interface for your front end.



Another trick possible with a rear projection screen and projector setup, is to have 1:1 ratio screen, and then rotating the projector to project either a horizonal or vertical image on to the rear of the screen.

All of this is possible with current technology, but cost is still a limiting factor for now, but with the not to distant death of CRT, it looks to be the most promising path for the future of large 4:3 ratio monitors.


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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2009, 10:39:23 am »
The simple truth is that you lack even the most basic understanding of the subject matter.

How is it that you plan on simulating arcade monitors when you don't know anything about them ?

QFT!

Genesim, it's time you bowed out.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2009, 11:32:39 am »
Not black..."BLUR".."color bleed"..etc.

Studying the monitor and the supposed desired effects is what I am talking about.   Is one pixel really that noticieable in a 1600x1200 grid??
And how do you expect to draw 'blur' with one row of pixels?  Agian, I'm telling you that if you want to somehow represent the minute details you see of a CRT close up, you're gonna need a LOT more detail than 1600x1200 to do it.  A LOT more.

I think we are talking about the whole picture...as far as the grid not being square then keep it even...4x4 and fill the rest in with black on top bottom or side.
And AGIAN, as I explained to you before, a large many arcade games do not even use square pixels when being drawn by the monitor and are drawing slightly rectangular pixels.  Agian an issues as LCD monitors generally are built with perfectly square pixels.

And the pixel would not be as you described the RGB would be in the middle as it is meant to be in its perfect state and the rest would be the bleeding.

Though I sure I have this wrong and this is only a minute observation without giving a whole lot of thought to how the mechanism could be duplicated.    You are probably right, it may take alot more resolution.   Of course don't forget the higher refresh rate.   Some of these issues could be a kind of "interlaced" quality.    Remember that something like 15 HZ monitor only draws 15 frames per second as opposed to a 120hz which is 8 more frames...couldn't some of the effect be made there?
15hz... Right.  Most LCDs probably can't even do 60hz then alone 120hz.  Oh, sure, the SIGNAL to most LCDs is sending 60 frames per second of data but that doesn't mean the LCD can draw 60 frames per second.  Know what 'Response Time' is in LCD terminology?  It's the measure of how long it takes for the LCD pixel to phase into a different color as ordered.  An LCD with a 20ms response time can only actually change colors 50 times per secont at the most, REGUARDLESS of how fast it's told to change colors.  It would actually start changing to the next color before it was done with the last color.  There are faster monitors but money becomes an issue.


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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2009, 11:41:19 am »
Not black..."BLUR".."color bleed"..etc.

Studying the monitor and the supposed desired effects is what I am talking about.   Is one pixel really that noticieable in a 1600x1200 grid??
And how do you expect to draw 'blur' with one row of pixels?  Agian, I'm telling you that if you want to somehow represent the minute details you see of a CRT close up, you're gonna need a LOT more detail than 1600x1200 to do it.  A LOT more.

I think we are talking about the whole picture...as far as the grid not being square then keep it even...4x4 and fill the rest in with black on top bottom or side.
And AGIAN, as I explained to you before, a large many arcade games do not even use square pixels when being drawn by the monitor and are drawing slightly rectangular pixels.  Agian an issues as LCD monitors generally are built with perfectly square pixels.

And the pixel would not be as you described the RGB would be in the middle as it is meant to be in its perfect state and the rest would be the bleeding.

Though I sure I have this wrong and this is only a minute observation without giving a whole lot of thought to how the mechanism could be duplicated.    You are probably right, it may take alot more resolution.   Of course don't forget the higher refresh rate.   Some of these issues could be a kind of "interlaced" quality.    Remember that something like 15 HZ monitor only draws 15 frames per second as opposed to a 120hz which is 8 more frames...couldn't some of the effect be made there?
15hz... Right.  Most LCDs probably can't even do 60hz then alone 120hz.  Oh, sure, the SIGNAL to most LCDs is sending 60 frames per second of data but that doesn't mean the LCD can draw 60 frames per second.  Know what 'Response Time' is in LCD terminology?  It's the measure of how long it takes for the LCD pixel to phase into a different color as ordered.  An LCD with a 20ms response time can only actually change colors 50 times per secont at the most, REGUARDLESS of how fast it's told to change colors.  It would actually start changing to the next color before it was done with the last color.  There are faster monitors but money becomes an issue.[/quote]

Jeffo,

:laugh2: :laugh2:

OOOHHHHH you got me there.   

You win, you proved me so wrong.  I know nothing about monitors.    I admit it fully.   You are oh so more important then me.

Now can you please stop acting like a maggot and go away?
Or how about you sit down, shutup and listen to him?  You WANT 'CRT flicker', the largest majority of CRT displays in an arcade system are drawing the entire screen at 60 half fields per-second (With an interlaced signal in a 60th of a second the TV only draws every OTHER line, then does the other set in the other 60th of a second).  This is tied to the electrical grid of North America running at 60hz itself.  So that 'flicker' itself is at 60hz, if you want it, you should know it.  He's pointing out that you havn't a clue what you're talking about, which you don't.

Dj_Izumi,

I am curious about something.   Could alot of these problems be fixed with scan lines being more closely related to the original monitors?

Alot of the picturs that were presented with Xiou had the look of being fixed with scan lines that were giving texture and actually blocking part of the picture.   Could a more exact artist representation help at all?
Yes, but to do it right and simply, you'd need an LCD screen that matched the original arcade games resolution.  NO ONE is going to produce 21"-27" LCD monitors which only have a pixel grid of like 256x224 which Pole Position used.  If you could however that would be a huge step towards achiving your stupid idea.  It's just that it's not going to happen.  Ever.  Unless you ordered such monitors as custom original fabrications, and you would need one for each unique resolution, so no switching between different games that run at differnet resolutions.  I couldn't even imagine what it would cost to do such productions.  For sure however it would be well, well, WELL beyond the means of anyone on this forum.  You'd need the kind of budget that Sony or RCA have in their R&D departments just to experiment with stuff to get it done.

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2009, 04:21:34 pm »
DJ_Izumi,

As far as Jeffo, if there is something I obviously don't know then why not teach me, like say in all honesty I am wrong instead of calling me a "moron" and personally attacking me from the first response.

What is there to gain by putting a scarlett letter on me because I get one aspect wrong.   I may not have it EXACTLY right, but it is a complete insult to say that I know nothing about the subject matter.   That is why I am asking about it on this topic.

ASKING.    Not telling....ASKING.   Get it one more time.   ASKING.   

Why act like a complete and utter tool and saying I should sit down and SHUT THE F UP?

I am hitting things back and forth to get answers so I can make my point further.    Anyone coming on and saying it can't be done...it cannot happen...it won't ever happen....isn't proving a thing.

Hitting ideas back and forth is how you and I learn.

Anybody coming in with absolutes are the ones guilty of thinking they know it all.   I learn alot from my friends on any kind of project that I do because they come in with simple deductive reasoning and yet knowing nothing about the subject matter.    I respect their intelligence and that is why I bounce ideas off of them instead of telling them to sit down and shut the hell up.

Back to the subject matter.   I admit that I am wrong about the detail and alot of what I post is from sneaking away at work and simply trying to get information.   Not sitting around thinking how will someone sharp shoot me next.   Hopefully we can move on from this part because I can be wrong about something and yet be corrected in a civilized manner and still get something out of the discussion.   

What annoys me the most is when I obviously got alot of information 100% correct(which is why Blanka threw a fit and deleted his posts) was I given credit...HELL NO.    Lets see if you can do the same as I move on to each and every one of your posts.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Quote
And how do you expect to draw 'blur' with one row of pixels?

How are you figuring ONE ROW?   The screen refreshed 120 times.    While code has to be written, I got that but I am asking....doesn't that leave alot if you accept that there is a 120hz refresh rate?   on top of that it is two rows and for every pixel that is a hell of alot more to work with.   Each pixel is like a part of a bigger canvas.   If the pixel is drawn correctly it can give more detail then just arbitrarily saying what is the big deal.   

But I am not putting this in stone.   Just bouncing an idea if you want a reminder.    Don't throw a fit because I don't have it right at all.   I am entitled to this much.

Quote
And AGIAN, as I explained to you before, a large many arcade games do not even use square pixels when being drawn by the monitor and are drawing slightly rectangular pixels.  Agian an issues as LCD monitors generally are built with perfectly square pixels.

That is perhaps the biggest problem and I am sorry I misunderstood.   I thought you were talking about the 6x4 grid being rectangular.    I didn't catch about the circle.    This is something I have always missed, but your metal slug screen shots explain alot in this way.   

Quote
Most LCDs probably can't even do 60hz then alone 120hz.  Oh, sure, the SIGNAL to most LCDs is sending 60 frames per second of data but that doesn't mean the LCD can draw 60 frames per second.  Know what 'Response Time' is in LCD terminology?  It's the measure of how long it takes for the LCD pixel to phase into a different color as ordered.  An LCD with a 20ms response time can only actually change colors 50 times per secont at the most, REGUARDLESS of how fast it's told to change colors.  It would actually start changing to the next color before it was done with the last color.  There are faster monitors but money becomes an issue.

I got a big problem with this.   I thought the response time was down to 1ms response and there are true 120hz.      Where do you get your information that LCD's aren't doing this?   The Sony models are premiere and have been getting very good reviews in that capacity.    An excellent article outlines some of this talk.

http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/lcd-response-time.html

But here is the problem.   Aren't we talking about games with a lower frame rate anyway?   Surely the quality has to be at least many many more frames redrawn right?   

I am not talking about "most", I am talking about the newest LCD's.   Quoting old technology is useless...shouldn't we move into the future?

Your 20ms response and  can't do 60hz seem archaic to me.

Quote
You WANT 'CRT flicker', the largest majority of CRT displays in an arcade system are drawing the entire screen at 60 half fields per-second (With an interlaced signal in a 60th of a second the TV only draws every OTHER line, then does the other set in the other 60th of a second).  This is tied to the electrical grid of North America running at 60hz itself.  So that 'flicker' itself is at 60hz, if you want it, you should know it.  He's pointing out that you havn't a clue what you're talking about, which you don't.

I remembered Plasma trying to compete with the 450hz moniker which was decieving because it has nothing to do with the refresh rate.   All Plasmas are 60hz.   Alot of this is going on here.    You can't seem to get your mind around that LCD's are true 120hz.   

My only arguement is that is twice the refresh rate which means it could draw a frame of flicker if that desired...or it could draw two.    Because of the mechanics of an LCD it is not prone to the same kind of redrawing problems.   By the way instead of pointing out what I don't know...stick to the topic ok?  Show some respect....even if you know so much more then me.   That is why I am trying to learn.

Quote
If you could however that would be a huge step towards achiving your stupid idea.  It's just that it's not going to happen.

Where the hell is this coming from?   My STUPID idea?   I don't think my idea is STUPID at all.

You see the world as flat, I see that ideas happen with a seed.  I thought we could have a civilized discussion.   

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Re: LCD and above to replace CRT monitors
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2009, 04:33:20 pm »
DJ_Izumi,

Quote
And AGIAN, as I explained to you before, a large many arcade games do not even use square pixels when being drawn by the monitor and are drawing slightly rectangular pixels.  Agian an issues as LCD monitors generally are built with perfectly square pixels.

But of course if one was going to use this idea then why not use the LCD's that have circular pixels?   If a company is working on a prototype why would they not go this route? 

Baby steps brother.

Quote
For sure however it would be well, well, WELL beyond the means of anyone on this forum.  You'd need the kind of budget that Sony or RCA have in their R&D departments just to experiment with stuff to get it done.

You assume alot. 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 04:35:45 pm by genesim »