So . . . I'm not the only one that thinks that the Wii's motion sensors suck

[shmokes]

Apparently Nintendo thinks so as well.  But they're fixing to fix the problem with a new accessory.  The Wii MotionPlus.  It snaps into the bottom of the controller and supplements the accelerometers to (supposedly) give perfect 1:1 accuracy to the controllers ability to detect position and motion.  Hopefully they also start building it into all future controllers.

Here's a pic:

[AtomSmasher]

Awesome.  Now lets just hope they're making upcoming starwars lightsaber game with this add-on in mind 

[DaveMMR]

Add-ons seem to always seem to do poorly because because publishers fear alienating customers by requiring a seperate add-on which leads to people not buying the add-on since too few games support it. 

So while this is a cool idea for an add-on, I hope (a) Nintendo prices it cheap enough that it's a no-brainer purchase (b) publishers pack it in with games that require or benefit from it and/or (c) it's desirable but strictly optional. 

Then again, the N64 Expansion Pak seemed to sell okay, especially since it was required for a couple of the more high-profile releases (Majora's Mask and most of Perfect Dark - and it was packed in with Donkey Kong 64).   So this is not something they haven't tried before.

[ChadTower]

Can't tell for sure from the pic... is there a passthru port on that for the nunchuk?

[shmokes]

I'm sure it will be a pack-in with a game, a-la the Wii Remote/Wii Play bundle, or the Zapper/Link's Crossbow bundle.  Also, so long as it's cheap and built-into new versions of the controller, I'm sure it will be supported.  Three years from now the vast majority of controllers out there would be MotionPlus enabled.

Also, I think that the old logic of accessories being doomed to failure has kind of disappeared, probably starting with the RAM pack on the N64.  The market has just expanded so much that these things are becoming more and more viable.  Look at Rock Band, Guitar Hero, and Dance Dance Revolution, for example.  These (especially the first two) represent some of the biggest success stories in console gaming right now and they all require special peripherals to play.  If Nintendo bundles this with something good (Wii Sports II, perhaps?) for a nominal price, it's sure to take off.  Hopefully it will also help with some older games, like boxing and putting in Wii Sports.

Can't tell for sure from the pic... is there a passthru port on that for the nunchuk?

It looks like there is a passthru with a door on it, but even if there isn't, the answer to your question is still yes.  Maybe we're looking at a prototype that doesn't have the passthru implemented, but, yeah . . . it will have a passthru.  How could it not?  It wouldn't even begin to make sense to make something like this but leave off the passthru.  That makes me think of something kind of interesting, though.  When you have this, the motion sensing on the remote will (supposedly) be perfect, but the nunchuck will remain lame and frustrating.  Probably not a huge issue.  Developers will use the remote for things that need precision and reserve the nunchuck for rudimentary stuff like lobbing grenades.  Still, it will be kind of funny to have half the controller finally work while the other half remains broken.

[Hoagie_one]

with this we can finally have functionality instead of gimmick.

[tk_42_1]

Now if they just add a mic/headset and better online experience a la XBox Live, it would make things even better.

[ChadTower]

Now if they just add a mic/headset and better online experience a la XBox Live, it would make things even better.

Or you could get a 360 for that.  Why would they want to jump into something they have already said they don't want?

[shmokes]

Well . . . That's true to a point.  If Nintendo truly acted like they don't want it, that would be one thing.  That would be ignoring online multiplayer altogether, though, which they haven't done.  They're implementing online multiplayer in their games, but then implementing mechanics (different 16-digit friend codes for each game, inability to chat or even text-message other players, etc.) that seem to be deliberately designed to suck.  Maybe they don't want to be a full-on Xbox Live, but they could certainly stand to do what they are doing a bit better.

[hypernova]

I don't think there was anyone that thought the motion sensing was great. 

I still don't have any problems putting.

And...Dude...there's another story on that site that made me crap my pants almost.  Assuming it is true.  And all indications are it IS!

FFXIII to XBOX 360???

Unless they remake FF7, I have no reason whatsoever to get a PS3 now at any point in time.

[versapak]

I don't think there was anyone that thought the motion sensing was great. 

I still don't have any problems putting.

And...Dude...there's another story on that site that made me crap my pants almost.  Assuming it is true.  And all indications are it IS!

FFXIII to XBOX 360???

Unless they remake FF7, I have no reason whatsoever to get a PS3 now at any point in time.

Yep, it is true.

Square announced it at the MS press conference.   

[fjl]

I wanted this perfect sensing back when the Wii was originally released. Was pretty dissapointed when I finally tried out the Wii and noticed it wasn't realistic but more of a gimmick. And now like two years later, they are finally releasing something they claim to have perfect sensing? What will happen if used with current games pre-calibrated for the non perfect Wii mote? And will new games be requiring this add-on? Releasing this so late makes me feel even more so dissapointed with Nintendo.

[ChadTower]

Well . . . That's true to a point.  If Nintendo truly acted like they don't want it, that would be one thing.  That would be ignoring online multiplayer altogether, though, which they haven't done.  They're implementing online multiplayer in their games, but then implementing mechanics (different 16-digit friend codes for each game, inability to chat or even text-message other players, etc.) that seem to be deliberately designed to suck.  Maybe they don't want to be a full-on Xbox Live, but they could certainly stand to do what they are doing a bit better.

Think like a network admin.  They've implemented the standard inclusive filter model rather than exclusive.  It's a lot easier to allow all and exclude some than it is to allow some and exclude all.  I don't think the mistake is the system - the mistake is having separate systems for both games and the general Wii OS channels.  There is probably a technical reason for that, though, like having third parties running their own servers without Nintendo participation.  IMO what it comes down to is getting what you've paid for.  Xbox Live is not free.  Nintendo's online services are free.

[Blanka]

I always trow the left 9 pins at wii bowling and the last one on the right the second throw. If the Wiimote was any precise, one could never reproduce this throw 10 times in a row. With the Wiimote I can.

[shmokes]

Nintendo's online services are free.

Even Nintendo published games, like Super Mario Kart and Super Mario Strikers require new friend codes for every friend, for every game.  And what about the lack of text or chat?  The most obvious answer is that they want to protect the children from the nasty people on the internet who will say naughty things to them, but that doesn't make much sense given the absurd friend code system they've implemented.  If the only people who can communicate with you are people you have specifically given access too (by having both people swap 16-digit friend codes through external channels and enter them into their respective Wiis), I'm pretty sure you can handle whatever they are going to say to you.  I mean, you had to communicate with them to swap the friend codes.  They can say naughty things to you over the phone or email as well as they can over a videogame system.  At the very least they could make the system automatically 1000% better simply by notifying you when someone else has input your friend code:  "ChadTower has invited you to be his friend for MarioKart.  Would you like to accept his invitation?"  Voila!  There's no technical reason not to at least do that.

I always trow the left 9 pins at wii bowling and the last one on the right the second throw. If the Wiimote was any precise, one could never reproduce this throw 10 times in a row. With the Wiimote I can.

You're confusing consistency with precision.  Nobody claimed that the controller was not consistent.  We said that it is incapable of precision.  The game you're talking about does not require precision; it requires crude, sweeping gestures.  Now let's see you reproduce that kind of consistency in Wii Sports Boxing.

[ChadTower]

Keep thinking like the admin you were.  You can't have that many separate network layers in the OS.  It would be too complex, raise the system requirements, and too prone to failure.  They have to either go with the friend code system for all games or no games.  Plus there may be actual legal reasons that they can't have one simpler system for themselves and a more difficult system for third parties.  That sure feels like class action bait to me.  Think of the code as a machine's MAC address because that's really what it has to be.  You can't use usernames because the Wii is an open use machine.  You can't really use machine "names" because then you'd have to maintain a sort of DNS for millions of Wiis all over the world - things that really can't be done for a free service.

As for why they don't have chat... I really don't know.  I can't see text being useful - how would they implement text into gameplay?  Chat would be nice I guess but I really don't care about it.  I suspect a lot of the userbase won't care.  Their target isn't those used to the 360 so they really won't miss chat in a game.  I know I don't miss a constant profane barrage from a bunch of sugared up 11 year olds when playing Mario Kart.

Even Nintendo published games, like Super Mario Kart and Super Mario Strikers require new friend codes for every friend, for every game.  And what about the lack of text or chat?  The most obvious answer is that they want to protect the children from the nasty people on the internet who will say naughty things to them, but that doesn't make much sense given the absurd friend code system they've implemented.  If the only people who can communicate with you are people you have specifically given access too (by having both people swap 16-digit friend codes through external channels and enter them into their respective Wiis), I'm pretty sure you can handle whatever they are going to say to you.  I mean, you had to communicate with them to swap the friend codes.  They can say naughty things to you over the phone or email as well as they can over a videogame system.  At the very least they could make the system automatically 1000% better simply by notifying you when someone else has input your friend code:  "ChadTower has invited you to be his friend for MarioKart.  Would you like to accept his invitation?"  Voila!  There's no technical reason not to at least do that.

[shmokes]

You can't really use machine "names" because then you'd have to maintain a sort of DNS for millions of Wiis all over the world - things that really can't be done for a free service.

I don't mean to be so contrary, but I just don't buy that for a second.  Maintaining a few DNS servers is nothing Nintendo can't handle already with the servers they're already running.  Even if they had to set up new servers the cost would be negligible.  We're not talking about running Xbox Live.  And anyway, we already have the system friend code used to trade Miis in the Mii parade that acts like a MAC address.  You simply cannot make a credible argument that there's not a heavy dose of absurdity about you and I having to exchange brand new 16 digit codes, every time we get a new game.  I've told my system that you're my friend.  You're in my address book.  I've exchanged my unique 16-digit code with you.  All games should allow you to just look in your Wii's address book and let you select who you want to enable online play with.  There is no technical reason that this can't be done.  It is a deliberate (and stupid) design choice. 

By the way, the Playstation Network for PS3 is free. 

On voice chat, remember that you wouldn't have a bunch of sugared up 11 year olds yelling at you is if you make a habit of adding 11 year olds to your friends list.  At any rate, Nintendo addressed voice chat today.  Another peripheral coming.  Picture below.  They also announced Wii Sports Resort.  It will include the MotionPlus adapter, just as Wii Play included a controller.  Damn, I'm good.   

[ChadTower]

It is a deliberate (and stupid) design choice. 

I have worked on more than one large scale technical project where such seemingly unexplainable design decisions were made.  They always had one of two reasons:  gov't regulations or fear of lawsuits.  I'd be shocked if this weren't one of those cases.

Oh, BTW - Mario Kart doesn't restrict online opponents to "friends".  I haven't ever added anyone to my friends list and can still race 9-10 people online.

[Magnet_Eye]

Now if they just add a mic/headset and better online experience a la XBox Live, it would make things even better.

They are doing this now, but not as a headset. They announced it today at E3. Apparently it will be a microphone that goes on your tv to pick up your voice, you hear everyone else through the tv when chatting.

[shmokes]

Oh, I think there's a reason.  Nintendo's reputation for creating systems for small children is not without merit, and I think this is part of their overall company philosophy of gearing their systems toward kids.  Nintendo is afraid of the internet.  They are afraid of being the conduit through which your kids are exposed to foul language and child predators and so on.  And that's fine.  It's good.  But their online system on the Wii takes it too far in the same way that Windows Vista's UAC takes security too far. 

By the way, the same philosophy is apparent on the new voice chat peripheral.  You get no privacy.  The entirety of your conversation is broadcast for everyone to hear.  It is interesting that using a headset is not even an option, especially considering the fact that the Wii uses bluetooth for the controllers, but will only connect to up to four at a time.  That means there are at least three Bluetooth slots open at all times (the Bluetooth spec allows up to 7 devices to be connected simultaneously).  Nintendo could build a Bluetooth headset from off-the-shelf parts and have it fully functional in a couple of days.  The controller also has a port, on which a wired headset with a passthru for the nunchuck could be attached.  Again, no technical reason not to have voice chat through a headset.  This is a deliberate design choice. 

Nintendo is holding back these features to protect you from evil.  That's fine if the system is only for kids, but kind of annoying as a 30 year old Wii owner. 

Frankly, though, it's only kind of annoying, as I don't care that much about online gaming.  I'm just looking forward to this MotionPlus thing.  That will hopefully take care of my #1 gripe about the system, and I know that my #2 gripe cannot be fixed (underpowered CPU/GPU).  It's a shame that it won't be out until next spring.

[ChadTower]

That means there are at least three Bluetooth slots open at all times (the Bluetooth spec allows up to 7 devices to be connected simultaneously).  Nintendo could build a Bluetooth headset from off-the-shelf parts and have it fully functional in a couple of days.

Not if the Wii doesn't have enough bus throughput to handle 7 devices.  Remember we're talking about a much lower level processing architecture than the 360.  How would it go over if Nintendo said "sure, you can have voice chat... but only if you limit yourself to two players"?

[shmokes]

I doubt that's the issue.  We've had full voice-chat in games for well over a decade on the PC, and the original Xbox could do it without blinking an eye.  And, of course, Nintendo is getting ready to implement their teleconferencing-style voice chat on the Wii.

I'm not saying it's impossible that you're wrong, Chad.  And your insistence on giving Nintendo your constant and unconditional benefit of the doubt is sweet.  I'm just talking about what seems most likely based on the information we have and the tendencies of the company we're talking about.

[SavannahLion]

---fudgesicle---... I have a full compliment of controllers for the Wii and now I got to shell out for this "accessory" for something that should have already been included in the base model? It better be packaged in with more that a few games.

That means there are at least three Bluetooth slots open at all times (the Bluetooth spec allows up to 7 devices to be connected simultaneously).  Nintendo could build a Bluetooth headset from off-the-shelf parts and have it fully functional in a couple of days.

Not if the Wii doesn't have enough bus throughput to handle 7 devices.  Remember we're talking about a much lower level processing architecture than the 360.  How would it go over if Nintendo said "sure, you can have voice chat... but only if you limit yourself to two players"?

Apparently Bust-a-Move Bash! supports eight simultaneous players. It's only one example and I've heard rumors a new Brain Age might support eight players. I haven't really specifically looked around for that.

I'm guessing the developers handed over a bit of processing power to handle that many players. 

Added: OK, looking at the specifications, it looks like that BT does allow for more than seven devices by allowing at least one device to act as both the master and slave role to "link" the groups together. That's interesting. Does this imply the Wiimote has enough processing power to act in the master role for at least one other controller?

[fjl]

---fudgesicle---... I have a full compliment of controllers for the Wii and now I got to shell out for this "accessory" for something that should have already been included in the base model?

Yes exactly.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, no company should ever actually improve their hardware a couple years after release.  Let's keep it the same as on release day forever and disregard changes in manufacturing cost and available parts. 

I haven't looked at the motherboard but it's possible the bluetooth controller is standalone - it wouldn't be able to offload processing load to the main CPU.  These things are componentized most of the time now in low end hardware and just talk to each other.

[shmokes]

I wonder if Bust-a-Move and the like aren't achieving 8-player simultaneous by having one player use a nunchuck tethered to another player's remote.  The system was designed for only four simultaneous players (look at the lights on the controller).

Chad, while I'm genuinely happy that this accessory is coming (and angry that the controller didn't work the way it should when it was released), I don't see this as merely improving their hardware.  If this accessory is supported by every developer, Nintendo will actually be rendering their console obsolete to those who have already purchased it, but don't want to spend more money on hardware upgrades.  If Wii Sports Resort is any indication, games that utilize the MotionPlus adapter will require it.  It's not that it will just give you a better experience; you can't have any experience at all without it.  That's not what we expect from consoles.

Still, better than not releasing it at all.  Considering the success of the Wii, ignoring the problem of ---smurfy--- controllers was certainly an option.  I'm not the fan of the way it played out.  The controllers should have worked from the beginning.  If the technology wasn't ready for prime time, they shouldn't have released it.  But short of giving these accessories away for free, which is unrealistic, I'd rather them late than never.

[ChadTower]

That's not what we expect from consoles.

Peripheral controllers getting released later, and a subset of games being dependent on them, has been a consistent model across most game consoles.  Almost every system has had a certain amount of games that required extra hardware to be fully or even at all functional.  Every time people complain about it like they have never seen it before.  And it's still a far better model than PC gaming and the constant barrage of upgrades people need to stay current.

[shmokes]

I think this is just a little bit different fundamentally than what we've seen in the past.  There's a reason that nobody made the same sort of complaints about Wii Fit or Guitar Hero or Link's Crossbow Training.  This is both more than, and less than a controller accessory for a subset of games.  All of the people who stood in line for launch expected this to begin with -- and with good reason.  This doesn't enable a new kind of gameplay, it fixes the essentially defective controllers that shipped with every console.  If these things cost $15 separately Nintendo is basically saying, "Yeah, we know we didn't give you what we promised, but for $60-$95 we'll upgrade your controllers so they will work like they should.

I'm very happy they are releasing it.  And now that they already made the initial mistake of releasing crap to begin with, I don't see any more graceful solution to the problem (a problem that Nintendo could easily not fix and remain at least as successful).  But I remain angry about the original product, and the fact that I'm looking at another $95 to upgrade my system if I don't want it to be obsolete after only two years.

[ahofle]

I wonder if Bust-a-Move and the like aren't achieving 8-player simultaneous by having one player use a nunchuck tethered to another player's remote.  The system was designed for only four simultaneous players (look at the lights on the controller).

Looks like you are correct.  From gamespot:

The only clever thing about the versus mode, and perhaps Bust-A-Move Bash! on the whole, is the way you can have eight players on four sets of controllers by having one player use the Wii Remote while the other uses the Nunchuk or the Classic Controller. The Nunchuk doesn't work so great, but the Classic Controller is unsurprisingly the best way to play the game, which makes the inability to use it anywhere besides the versus mode supremely frustrating.

[ChadTower]

This doesn't enable a new kind of gameplay, it fixes the essentially defective controllers that shipped with every console. 

Fundamental disagreement.  The controllers work exactly as designed and I have never had a problem with them across many many Wii games.  They aren't as precise as you like.  That is nothing like being defective or nonfunctional.

[shmokes]

That is nothing like being defective or nonfunctional.

Yes it is.  They very, very frequently fail to register gestures that they should have registered.  To suggest that you've never had a problem with them is either a flat lie, or redefining what a "problem" is.  I'm sure you've played Wii Sports Boxing.  If so, you have had a problem with the controller not registering a gesture you made correctly.  In fact, if you've played a single round of Wii Sports Boxing you've had a problem with the Wii Remote's motion sensors probably dozens of times.  All products can be better, but there is such a thing as a product that doesn't perform as it should.  The Wii Remote falls into the latter category.

[ChadTower]

Well, IMO, you're expecting too much.  No one ever said the Wiimote is military grade hardware.  It doesn't do tiny movements well.  I don't find it that big a deal as few games I've played had any problems at all as a result.

I went pro in boxing in less than a week.  My 6 year old went pro in two days - his rating is obscenely high.  The movements are accurately reproducible.  They're not exactly punching movements but it is not hard to throw all punches consistently.  In fact boxing is probably a bad example - the most effective movements actually are all short precise thrusts.  It's the big looping punches that people throw that don't get registered properly.

[patrickl]

My kid is effective at boxing too, but he simply throws the controllers around at random. That the game is easy doesn't mean that the controllers don't work poorly in the game.

I wonder if the poor gesture recognition of several games isn't more a problem with poor pattern recognition in the software rather than a lack of sensor accuracy.

[versapak]

My kid is effective at boxing too, but he simply throws the controllers around at random. That the game is easy doesn't mean that the controllers don't work poorly in the game.

I wonder if the poor gesture recognition of several games isn't more a problem with poor pattern recognition in the software rather than a lack of sensor accuracy.

...but then they wouldn't be releasing the new add-on.

[ChadTower]

My kid is effective at boxing too, but he simply throws the controllers around at random. That the game is easy doesn't mean that the controllers don't work poorly in the game.

My son is way better at it than I am... I'm sorta random.  He isn't.  He went platinum in nearly all of the boxing practice games.  I've seen him beat people only getting hit a couple of times.  It's funny to watch.  He is a real life Little Mac.

[bishmasterb]

Just a clarification, sorry if this has been addressed already:

Does this hardware add-on work transparently with all existing software, or does it only provide benefit to software specifically written to take advantage of it?

[shmokes]

I'm pretty sure that I read an interview with Miyamoto in which he said that only software programmed to take advantage of it will benefit.

[patrickl]

My kid is effective at boxing too, but he simply throws the controllers around at random. That the game is easy doesn't mean that the controllers don't work poorly in the game.

I wonder if the poor gesture recognition of several games isn't more a problem with poor pattern recognition in the software rather than a lack of sensor accuracy.

...but then they wouldn't be releasing the new add-on.

Who says that the new add-on has anything to do with improving recognition of the current gestures?

I would assume the new add-on is so the games can recognize more elaborate gestures. ie recognize actual tennis motions rather than simply time when the motion starts and crudely measure from where to where it moves.

I encountered only a few games where gesture recognition didn't work adequately. I did encounter masses of games where the gesture recognition worked fine, but the gestures were so overly simplified that they broke the whole idea of the game.

Also most games claim you need to make grand motions, but in fact if you tap the controller shortly on your leg you get a much bigger acceleration than you ever get flailing your arms around. A more elaborate detection system could properly detect the actual motion.

I was designing a sensor for obtaining telemetry while driving a kart (indoor), but I couldn't get it to work with only accelerometers. I found it impossible to see the difference between driving up a slope and accelerating when using only a single set of accelerators (4 axes). I thought about adding extra accelerometers (to figure out the tilt of the kart) or a magnetic field detector, but I lost interest. If this new Wii add-on works maybe I can try it on a kart again too. I'm too old and fat to drive a kart now though

[shmokes]

The add-on uses a gyroscope, BTW.  No additional accelerometers.

[ahofle]

The add-on uses a gyroscope, BTW.  No additional accelerometers.

I wonder what effect this will have on battery life?