Khameleon front end 3rd public beta now available

[Cakemeister]

Get it here.

New features:

1) Source code included!

2) Penner animation functions, as seen in Flash animations.

3) Per-emulator artwork paths

4) Support for arbitrary GLSL shaders. I have included two. The current time can be passed to the shader.

5) Multi-system or multi-category display. So if you want to have a list of game lists, such as "Favorites", "Fighters" or whatever, that can be done. Or you can have a scrolling list of game systems with an emulator set up for each. I've included an example skin.

6) ListGen now works with MAME v0.124.

Sorry, I don't have a skinner yet, but all skins are XML files and can be edited with a text editor.

Please reply to this thread, PM me, or email me at cakemeister AT comcast DOT net with any questions, feature requests, comments or whatever.

[massive88]

3) Per-emulator artwork paths

 

Thats what I was waiting for to try it in earnest!

Thanks Cake!

[RetroBorg]

Downloading now.

[Cakemeister]

I have not been idle. I've added a particle system and preliminary support for the Hyperspin artwork system.

I'm working on the skinner now. If someone with an existing GUI wants to donate some source code (must be portable (ie no MFC) C or C++, resources must be RC format), I would certainly take a look at it.

Also, my web hosting provider is pulling out and I may need web hosting space at the end of this month.

[Ummon]

For anyone familiar with MaLa, and keeping in mind a fairly stock set-up, how does Khameleon compare/why would I want to use it instead? Or is Khameleon for those who really WANT to complexly mess around with their fe?

[Cakemeister]

MaLa is a fine front end, but it is graphically limited.

Khameleon can run MaLa skins natively.

I would guess that any system with a card that can run an OpenGL application can run the same MaLa skin much faster with Khameleon than it could with MaLa itself, due to OpenGL graphical acceleration. However, since MaLa skins are typically very simple, and PCs are so cheap, this point may not matter.

You have to have a separate skin for each resolution in MaLa, not in Khameleon.

MaLa, on the other hand, has a much larger user base, whereas I think about 3 people use Khameleon ATM. MaLa can also run the MaLa hardware if that is important to you.

[Cakemeister]

I have uploaded a new wip here. I decided to include all artwork necessary to make the demo run. To make the frontend work, all you need to do is configure your emulators, and you don't even need to do that if you run MAME and it is located at c:\emulators\mame.

The download is 100 megabytes, low-bandwidth users beware!

I've also included several new demos which show some of the new features of the frontend.

Still working on the skinner.

EDIT: Link removed.

[BadBoyBill]

Alright man, first off your distributing artwork that I and my team personally hand drew and not to mention I'm still in private beta, so how are you obtaining my files.  You are sinking pretty low to be doing this and I find it very disrespectful.

I dont mind supporting other FE creators and their projects but you are taking our prerelease files and dont even have the common courtesy to ask first.  What a lame and unprofessional project your running.

[Cakemeister]

No need to be jealous, Bill. Seems to me like you have your feelings backwards. You should feel flattered that I am paying attention to your project.

Your frontend is all about the artwork. Mine is about technical achievement.

[gonzo90017]

Some skins wouldn't load:

Code: [Select]

1484 : Loading skin file atomic2.skn
     1484 : Loading sound map file atomic.smp
     1484 : no filename attribute in AnimationFile tag
     1484 : Skin::Load no ScreenList
     1484 : Failed to load skin file atomic2.skn
     1500 : Application shutting down
     1500 : Application shutdown complete
     1500 : Shutting down libcore
     1500 : FontManager::Purge()
     1500 : FontManager::Purge destroyed 0 FontEntry items
     1875 : Logging shutting down, further logging will go to stdout

1500 : Loading skin file atomic_old.skn
     1515 : Loading sound map file atomic.smp
     1515 : no filename attribute in AnimationFile tag
     1515 : Skin::Load no ScreenList
     1515 : Failed to load skin file atomic_old.skn
     1515 : Application shutting down
     1515 : Application shutdown complete
     1515 : Shutting down libcore
     1515 : FontManager::Purge()
     1515 : FontManager::Purge destroyed 0 FontEntry items
     1890 : Logging shutting down, further logging will go to stdout

 1484 : Loading skin file atomic_test.skn
     1484 : Loading sound map file atomic.smp
     1500 : no filename attribute in AnimationFile tag
     1500 : Skin::Load no ScreenList
     1500 : Failed to load skin file atomic_test.skn
     1500 : Application shutting down
     1500 : Application shutdown complete
     1500 : Shutting down libcore
     1500 : FontManager::Purge()
     1500 : FontManager::Purge destroyed 0 FontEntry items
     1875 : Logging shutting down, further logging will go to stdout

1468 : Loading skin file jukebox.skn
     1468 : Failed to find <DelayWhenScrolling> field
     1468 : Finished processing skin file jukebox.skn
     1468 : Skin file loading complete
     1468 : File loading complete
     1468 : KhameleonFE::LoadFE 6 done
     1468 : Initializing application
     1468 : Application startup complete
     1468 : Application initialization complete
     1468 : Main screen initialization done
     1468 : Entering idle loop
     1468 : Start of first frame at 1468 ms
     1593 : The first frame took 125 ms
    20984 : Exit requested in APP_STATE_NORMAL
    20984 : Main event loop done, terminating program
    21250 : elapsed time from first frame=19657 ms
    21250 : frame count=1451
Fastest skin is still Ultrastyle but even with that one I get 19fps.
AMD Sempron 2200+ 1.5ghz 1gb ram

[youki]

Woouauuh... Great Job , Cakemeister!   Your Hyperskin support is very nice!   

[Cakemeister]

Some skins wouldn't load:

Code: [Select]

1484 : Loading skin file atomic2.skn
     1484 : Loading sound map file atomic.smp
     1484 : no filename attribute in AnimationFile tag
     1484 : Skin::Load no ScreenList
     1484 : Failed to load skin file atomic2.skn
     1500 : Application shutting down
     1500 : Application shutdown complete
     1500 : Shutting down libcore
     1500 : FontManager::Purge()
     1500 : FontManager::Purge destroyed 0 FontEntry items
     1875 : Logging shutting down, further logging will go to stdout

1500 : Loading skin file atomic_old.skn
     1515 : Loading sound map file atomic.smp
     1515 : no filename attribute in AnimationFile tag
     1515 : Skin::Load no ScreenList
     1515 : Failed to load skin file atomic_old.skn
     1515 : Application shutting down
     1515 : Application shutdown complete
     1515 : Shutting down libcore
     1515 : FontManager::Purge()
     1515 : FontManager::Purge destroyed 0 FontEntry items
     1890 : Logging shutting down, further logging will go to stdout

 1484 : Loading skin file atomic_test.skn
     1484 : Loading sound map file atomic.smp
     1500 : no filename attribute in AnimationFile tag
     1500 : Skin::Load no ScreenList
     1500 : Failed to load skin file atomic_test.skn
     1500 : Application shutting down
     1500 : Application shutdown complete
     1500 : Shutting down libcore
     1500 : FontManager::Purge()
     1500 : FontManager::Purge destroyed 0 FontEntry items
     1875 : Logging shutting down, further logging will go to stdout

1468 : Loading skin file jukebox.skn
     1468 : Failed to find <DelayWhenScrolling> field
     1468 : Finished processing skin file jukebox.skn
     1468 : Skin file loading complete
     1468 : File loading complete
     1468 : KhameleonFE::LoadFE 6 done
     1468 : Initializing application
     1468 : Application startup complete
     1468 : Application initialization complete
     1468 : Main screen initialization done
     1468 : Entering idle loop
     1468 : Start of first frame at 1468 ms
     1593 : The first frame took 125 ms
    20984 : Exit requested in APP_STATE_NORMAL
    20984 : Main event loop done, terminating program
    21250 : elapsed time from first frame=19657 ms
    21250 : frame count=1451
Fastest skin is still Ultrastyle but even with that one I get 19fps.
AMD Sempron 2200+ 1.5ghz 1gb ram

19fps? What kind of graphics card do you have? Khameleon does depend on 3d acceleration, so if you have an ancient video card, or one that doesn't support OpenGL, you might get bad frame rates even if you have a healthy processor.

Also, the test skins and stuff are for, well, testing, and the jukebox code is barely code at all.

[brian_hoffman]

Wow Cakemeister!!!! You have totally blown HS out of the water... Why should users wait for HS to be realeased when they can grab your FE with ripped artwork?  I mean wow.. I and other guys have spent hours making graphics and themes for HS and in one fell swoop you take all that work (by un authorized means) and distribute it.  Then ( I love this part) You say Billy should be flatterd...  Just to add insult to injury..

Realisticly we expect users to grab artwork for personal use once the FE is realesed.. I mean alot of it is great. But come on now.. its not even out yet. Talk about taking the wind out of someones sails.  I also notice you didnt even credit the authors of the artwork..  (do you want the fame?)

Its a pretty --cream-filled twinkie-- move to release the themes and offer support for a unreleased fe that others are doing that work for. Somewhere the line has to be drawn and say thats just not the right thing to do.

This is just my two cents.


Congratulations on the release
 

[Cakemeister]

Heh, I liked the ban message, that was funny.

[gonzo90017]

Khameleon does depend on 3d acceleration, so if you have an ancient video card, or one that doesn't support OpenGL, you might get bad frame rates even if you have a healthy processor.

Nvidia Geforce FX5200 AGP 8x 128mb ram

[Dazz]

Cake... you've always had my respect as a developer.  That is up until this low blow that you have pulled.  To take someones UNRELEASED work and incorporate it into your own is completely and utterly disrespectful to other developers. 

How would you, or any other FE creator, like to have their work copied and released before you released it?  We all knew that you were going to incorporate HyperSpin themes into your front end, but to do it before the developer released it to the public just blows my mind.  After the HS public release would have been perfectly fine, but NOT BEFORE A PUBLIC RELEASE!  This is just WRONG, almost to a level of Limbo of the Lost.  The only thing that sets you apart from Limbo of the Lost is that you are not charging for it.

You might call your front end a "technical achievement", and I respect that because it really is.  HOWEVER your nerve and lack of compassion for others work is flat out BS.  I am really surprised by Youki's comments, congratulating you on publishing work from another developer, and the fact that he is bowing down and kissing your ass for taking others work.  Youki, was your work on Atomic released in Khameleon before or after you released it to the public?

Cake, I politely request that you remove HyperSpin support in your front end until the HS developer has released an open public beta....  As a theme creator I request that you remove any themes that you have included within your download or from your site that were acquired from the HyperSpin beta site.  Once the public beta is release then you can re-release your front end with HS support, but please give credit where credit is due.

I'm really sorry, but this isn't about your FE having support for HS themes.  This is simply about YOU RELEASING WORK BASED ON A CLOSED & PRIVATE BETA BEFORE IT COULD BE RELEASED BY THE ORIGINAL CREATORS.  Until you make the right decisions and pull your code until HS is at least in a PUBLIC BETA status; you have completely lost my respect as a coder and you deserve to loose the respect of any other code writers out there.  Please show a little compassion and respect for others work and others might have more respect for your work.

[Cakemeister]

Cake, I politely request that you remove HyperSpin support in your front end until the HS developer has released an open public beta.... 

Okay, done.

[Cakemeister]

Khameleon does depend on 3d acceleration, so if you have an ancient video card, or one that doesn't support OpenGL, you might get bad frame rates even if you have a healthy processor.

Nvidia Geforce FX5200 AGP 8x 128mb ram

Are you running XP? If so, did you get your card's drivers from Nvidia or did you use the one on the Windows XP install disk?

Try updating your drivers if you haven't updated them in a while, or if you are not using drivers from Nvidia.

[Dazz]

Cake, I politely request that you remove HyperSpin support in your front end until the HS developer has released an open public beta.... 

Okay, done.

Thank you very much.  We really are not too much further from a public beta release, so please just hold off on your release until we give the approval.  Again thank you very much for your cooperation and it is greatly appreciated.

[headkaze]

Jeez guys calm down already. Cakemeister shouldn't be releasing the themes without permission although it is just a demo to show it has HS theme support. I really doubt he intends to release it with all the themes you guys have painstakenly made.

My own engine has the same animation support as HS, and it is a technical achievement to implement an animation system to rival Flash. From scratch. Which is what I was doing before HS was announced. So in that sense I take my hat off to Cakemeister for achieveing that as well. We can argue schemantics about who came up with what idea first. I mean I thought I was the first to implement a Flash animation system but apparently I wasn't (maybe I was the first to do it without Flash) but I'm pretty sure I was the first to implement a particle system. Youki was the first to have Flash (as in swf) support in his FE. 3d Arcade was the first to have full 3d support. Ultracade was the first to implement a spinning wheel. I mean lets face it alot of HS design comes from Ultracade (and certainly not the first; look at UltraStyle, 3D Arcade, Khameleon etc.)

Despite all this, a polite request to remove the artwork would have been suffice. I don't think you should expect him to hold back a release until HS is released. Kameleon supports multiple FE layouts and themes, that's what it does and I don't think there is a problem with that. Releasing it before HS again I don't see the big deal. I don't think he's stolen any of the HS thunder because it's still is unique in it's own way. And it has a large community already that has produced alot of artwork and tools for it. Something that Cakemeister doesn't have behind him and he's been around for a long time (Most people know him as Buddabing).

But I do agree it is best to get permission to include artwork beforehand and for that it's understandable to be upset. So the simple solution to this Cakemeister is make a few of your own HS themes and include them instead. Or try and get your own artist to help out (although we know how difficult that can be). If it is only the artwork your all upset about or is it because someone released a FE that can do what HS does before it? Well I kinda felt the same way when I saw those HS videos, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be released before mine. Let's face it, 3d accellerated FE's have been talked about for years on this forum, so it's not something new at all. IMHO Flash was never good enough to do what HS does until recently, so it makes sense that it has so much more potential now as you can see in the HS videos.

I'm not taking sides here as I respect the work being done by both FE authors, and want to see you both be successful. As I said, if it's all just about the artwork, then release a HS theme with your own artwork instead. Simple. There is not patent on any theme format and I don't think there should be. This is free software afterall. And the best way to stop people doing what your doing is create something that can't be copied. Because as you can see as soon as someone comes up with a good idea, then everyone else starts doing the same thing. They do say the greatest form of flattery.. well I think I've rambled on long enough!

BTW To those who don't know what Ultracade is, check out this video. Look familiar?

[youki]

You might call your front end a "technical achievement", and I respect that because it really is.  HOWEVER your nerve and lack of compassion for others work is flat out BS.  I am really surprised by Youki's comments, congratulating you on publishing work from another developer, and the fact that he is bowing down and kissing your ass for taking others work.  Youki, was your work on Atomic released in Khameleon before or after you released it to the public?

I'm just congratulating the technically work.  For the other aspect , i don't judge.
I undertand BadboyBill because i have been also offset that at the begin of Atomic another FE sunddly supports  very early version of my skins. (not Khamelon). It was a french FE.   With the time, i have learned that when you have good idea  it is not long somebody else take it in another FE.
So now, i don't care about that. It is the life.

In additon, it is just Artwork . And most of them are done with other artwork done by others and some are surely copyrighted...

FYI info, i don't think Khameleon is able to load my skins. it is able to do similar skin (partially, it think)  but it does not support my native format.

Anyway Khameleon has my full support , simply because it is really a FREE project and open source. I absolutly sure that behind this project there is no idea to make money....

I plan also to support hyperskin format too (at least partially) , i just waiting the release to be able to study the final layout format.  then i will do ,may be, a converter.   As Mala  as a MameWah layout convertor.

[headkaze]

In additon, it is just Artwork . And most of them are done with other artwork done by others and some are surely copyrighted...

Thats a good point, most of the artwork is already copyright, even if you take alot of time tracing it or cutting out it's background, it's still copyright. Still I think they're upset that he included HS themes without asking permission. Even if they couldn't copyright them, it is always nice to be asked first. Still I don't think anyone should expect Cakemeister to hold back a release until HS is released. That to me seems over the top.

Just curious if anyone else complained when Cakemeister included their themes in Khameleon?

[Cakemeister]

Just curious if anyone else complained when Cakemeister included their themes in Khameleon?

No one.

My impression was that HS was free. If they were planning on making HS a commercial venture I would understand their issues, and I would treat HS just like I treat other commerical frontends, I would ignore it. I don't understand the venom coming from them when what they are doing is supposed to be free.

[Singapura]

Maybe some constructive tips? When putting in the directories I have to fill them in one by one. Why not have the user choose the mame directory and pre-fill the directory paths to the other parts (bezel, art etc.)? Most people will have this structure anyway and it saves a lot of cut&paste.

[headkaze]

Here are some HS designs I've made and your welcome to use them in Khameleon. When HS is released I'll probably make them available to their community as well.

Some of them look like the original HS themes because at the time I was too lazy to create new designs for some of them but I assure you all the artwork was searched out and cut out by hand myself. I do appreciate the effort that goes into making themes like this, just finding decent quality images is hard enough.

The way I see it is programmers do enough free work just writing code, and it's really hard to get artwork made without all these problems it seems. I think as long as you credit people for their work, then there should be no problem sharing graphics with permission. Creating artwork is time consuming but so is writing code. Seems only fair that people could be a bit more forgiving with artwork as freeware coders seem to be with their applications. That's just my humble opinion anyway.

[Dazz]

In additon, it is just Artwork . And most of them are done with other artwork done by others and some are surely copyrighted...

Thats a good point, most of the artwork is already copyright, even if you take alot of time tracing it or cutting out it's background, it's still copyright. Still I think they're upset that he included HS themes without asking permission. Even if they couldn't copyright them, it is always nice to be asked first. Still I don't think anyone should expect Cakemeister to hold back a release until HS is released. That to me seems over the top.

Just curious if anyone else complained when Cakemeister included their themes in Khameleon?

Actually the themes that were included with Cake's download, most of that artwork was hand drawn....  This artwork was not traced, nor was it existing artwork to begin with.  A lot of the HS artwork is original artwork or some seriously touched up and re-mastered work to make it look nice.  You should see the box art sets that the guys have been working on.  Boxart for HS isn't simply images downloaded from other places and then slapped in, the boxart is having some serious work done on them to make them look good and clean in HS.  These are by far the best looking boxart sets that I have seen anywhere, and once complete anyone will be able to use them in their projects.

Now take the fact that none of the themes are going to be INCLUDED with the HS download...  Themes are not simple backgrounds plastered into the FE.  HS themes contain many images controlled by an xml file.  The XML code being used to control these these themes can be copy written if Bill really wanted to be an ass about it.  Also, there is a disclaimer on the site requesting that themes not be re-distributed without permission...  I am pretty sure that we have the rights to request that even though the images are not all original artwork, but the XML code to control those themes is definitely original and specific to HS.

Had Cake of contacted Bill and asked to use the themes, he would have been requested not to until a public beta has been released in the first place.  None of this would be going on...

Just curious if anyone else complained when Cakemeister included their themes in Khameleon?

No one.

My impression was that HS was free. If they were planning on making HS a commercial venture I would understand their issues, and I would treat HS just like I treat other commerical frontends, I would ignore it. I don't understand the venom coming from them when what they are doing is supposed to be free.

HS is going to be free, so please don't think otherwise...  We also knew that you were going to incorporating HS theme support in Khameleon.  However to see Bill's work duplicated in another FE before he could release it is a bit discouraging.

The venom is coming from the fact that you have still borrowed custom code from a project that has not had a public release yet.  Not to mention the hand drawn artwork included in the themes that you had with your download and NO credits provided where credit is definitely due.  How many other FE's out there have you incorporated into your FE before they were released to the public?  How many more did you have to infiltrate and act as a beta tester or have someone else leak the files to you so you could incorporate into Khameleon before their releases?  You could have avoided the venom by simply talking to Bill and asking permission to incorporate his themes into your FE...

Anyway, I still think that you should hold off on a release until HS is released, just out of respect for another FE creator if nothing else...

[Cakemeister]

Maybe some constructive tips? When putting in the directories I have to fill them in one by one. Why not have the user choose the mame directory and pre-fill the directory paths to the other parts (bezel, art etc.)? Most people will have this structure anyway and it saves a lot of cut&paste.

Good idea, I find the the whole cut & paste thing a bit annoying myself.

[Cakemeister]

Here are some HS designs I've made and your welcome to use them in Khameleon. When HS is released I'll probably make them available to their community as well.

Some of them look like the original HS themes because at the time I was too lazy to create new designs for some of them but I assure you all the artwork was searched out and cut out by hand myself. I do appreciate the effort that goes into making themes like this, just finding decent quality images is hard enough.

The way I see it is programmers do enough free work just writing code, and it's really hard to get artwork made without all these problems it seems. I think as long as you credit people for their work, then there should be no problem sharing graphics with permission. Creating artwork is time consuming but so is writing code. Seems only fair that people could be a bit more forgiving with artwork as freeware coders seem to be with their applications. That's just my humble opinion anyway.

I could use those images for my multiemulator skin. Thank you.

Is this image a thumbnail and you can email me something larger? If so, I don't think I can take an email much larger than 5 or so megabytes.

[headkaze]

I could use those images for my multiemulator skin. Thank you.

Is this image a thumbnail and you can email me something larger? If so, I don't think I can take an email much larger than 5 or so megabytes.

Obviously they're thumnails the real screens are all in psd format at 640x480. The logo's, characters, backgrounds are optimized for 3d hardware (in texture size mostly 512x512).

The psd's are just to get an idea of the layouts, and they don't have all the images in their original size. The psd's are about 23 MB zip compressed and the original png images come to about 20 MB zipped. I'll have to find a place to host them I guess.

[Cakemeister]

You can try emailing them to cakemeister AT comcast DOT net but there are no guarantees of success.

[billpa]

How many more did you have to infiltrate and act as a beta tester or have someone else leak the files to you so you could incorporate into Khameleon before their releases?  You could have avoided the venom by simply talking to Bill and asking permission to incorporate his themes into your FE...

Yup...that pretty much sums it up for me. The project was closed beta. Either someone leaked the files to Cake or he registered for closed beta under a different username. And by his initial comments, he knew that releasing it would piss off quite a few people working on HS.

Closed beta is just that...closed to the public. Taking assets from our closed beta and using them in your own public beta is a ---smurfy--- move. Is there anyone that would disagree with that? I don't think so.

@Headkaze

Thanks for posting the Ultracade video. Not sure what you are getting at since BBB stated that was the style he wanted to create for HS when he released his first video.

Releasing it before HS again I don't see the big deal. I don't think he's stolen any of the HS thunder because it's still is unique in it's own way. And it has a large community already that has produced alot of artwork and tools for it. Something that Cakemeister doesn't have behind him and he's been around for a long time

Releasing it before HS is public is a big deal if he is using assets from HS closed beta. And just because we have a community (believe me, its not large) producing artwork and Cake does not, am I supposed to fell sorry for him?

We all knew that the themes would be ripped when HS was released. To be honest I didn't care too much as long as it helped out the community and got other people involved doing the same so that it wasn't a purely TAKE situation. However, HS has not been released. Cake knew that and did not care.

I plan also to support hyperskin format too (at least partially) , i just waiting the release to be able to study the final layout format.

Thanks youki. Its refreshing to see someone with some morals.

[headkaze]

billpa: The reason I posted the Ultracade video was to show that HS is not the new and original FE that many people think it is. And in a sense it's copying someone elses design in the first place. The artwork your using is not all original either, so my point is, you are the pot calling the kettle black in a way. "Don't copy our designs and assets that are copied from somewhere else". If your using artwork from a game, or a console logo, game logo even if you do create them from scratch it doesn't mean you own the copyright on them.

Anyway he's taken down the download so that should be the end of it.

[Dazz]

billpa: The reason I posted the Ultracade video was to show that HS is not the new and original FE that many people think it is. And in a sense it's copying someone elses design in the first place. The artwork your using is not all original either, so my point is, you are the pot calling the kettle black in a way. "Don't copy our designs and assets that are copied from somewhere else".

Yes there is a heavy Ultracade influence in HyperSpin, however he has not used any resources from Ultracade.  Unlike HS resources being used in Khameleon...  The theme files included in Khameleon's release were indeed taken from HS verbatim.  BUT, Ultracade has been out for a while... Bill did not release a public HyperSpin beta while Ultracade was still in closed beta. 

[headkaze]

BUT, Ultracade has been out for a while... Bill did not release HyperSpin while Ultracade was still in beta.

Who releases what in what order is not what this is about. It's about using other peoples artwork without permission. Noone gets a medal for releasing their FE before someone else. And I don't think anyone could have released an Ultracade clone before Ultracade because it was an original idea at the time.

[Cakemeister]

FYI nothing was leaked. Everything I got was freely available from the HS site. I do not "infiltrate" sites.

[Dazz]

BUT, Ultracade has been out for a while... Bill did not release HyperSpin while Ultracade was still in beta.

Who releases what in what order is not what this is about. It's about using other peoples artwork without permission. Noone gets a medal for releasing their FE before someone else. And I don't think anyone could have released an Ultracade clone before Ultracade because it was an original idea at the time.

I am really surprised that a good coder such as yourself doesn't feel discouraged in any way...  I use your several of your programs and love them, not to mention that you have helped me out in the past with support on your programs.  Seriously think about this....  How would you have liked it if I borrowed your code/images/ideas for your CPWizard and and implemented it into my own very similar application before you had a chance to release your own first and without giving you any credit for the previously done work...

BTW Khameleon already has Ultracade'esq support... Why does it even need HS skin support?

[headkaze]

I am really surprised that a good coder such as yourself doesn't feel discouraged in any way...  I use your several of your programs and love them, not to mention that you have helped me out in the past with support on your programs.  Seriously think about this....  How would you have liked it if I borrowed your code/images/ideas for your CPWizard and and implemented it into my own very similar application before you had a chance to release your own first and without giving you any credit for the previously done work...

BTW Khameleon already has Ultracade'esq support... Why does it even need HS skin support?

Don't talk to me about artwork with CPWizard lol I had a guy come down on me for using his artwork even after I got his permission lol. I also use RandyT's CP graphics and XPAdder's controller graphics with permission although I couldn't track down some authors. But anyway the thing is HS is about to released anyway right? Few weeks away. Khameleon is not a complete FE by any means and he doesn't have a huge userbase so I don't see a big problem. I do expect people to ask me before they use my graphics in other applications but I wouldn't pull a ham string over it. People have used components and code I've written in their applications and I don't kick up a fuss when they don't credit me for it. It's not to say I don't think you should credit people as I think you should. I never argued that point.

As for Khameleon having HS skin support, why not? Does it really upset you all that much? If he waits for HS to be released before releasing his would that be okay?

[Dazz]

As for Khameleon having HS skin support, why not? Does it really upset you all that much?

Nah, it doesn't upset me at all...  We knew it was going to happen and had planned on using it to our advantage.  The more people using HS or Khameleon the more people might join in on the artwork community we are trying to get going and help create artwork and themes for them.  As a matter of fact what's holding up HS open beta is that Bill is creating this AWESOME theme designer application to make creating themes much easier. 

The only thing that is upsetting is that he did use our theme files word for word, before we have really opened the beta to the public.  I can guarantee that Khameleon is not using any of the new stuff that has been added recently.  So anyone trying to use HS themes in Khameleon will have issues with them since the code wasn't finalized when these files were acquired.  If someone gets one of our themes and tries to run it in Khameleon and it causes problems then it could look bad for both HS and Khameleon.

[headkaze]

Nah, it doesn't upset me at all...  We knew it was going to happen and had planned on using it to our advantage.  The more people using HS or Khameleon the more people might join in on the artwork community we are trying to get going and help create artwork and themes for them.  As a matter of fact what's holding up HS open beta is that Bill is creating this AWESOME theme designer application to make creating themes much easier.

We really should end this as it's becoming a hijack of Cake's thread and he's already removed the download. I have seen screenshots of Bill's new theme editor and it does look really awesome. I have a few themes as you can see above that I can put into HS format when it's released. I agree with you on that point the more people supporting the format, the more themes will be made. I think that will be a benefit for everyone

[BadBoyBill]

Just curious if anyone else complained when Cakemeister included their themes in Khameleon?

No one.

My impression was that HS was free. If they were planning on making HS a commercial venture I would understand their issues, and I would treat HS just like I treat other commerical frontends, I would ignore it. I don't understand the venom coming from them when what they are doing is supposed to be free.

No One?  No one was ever in the same situation so I hardly think thats comparible there.  Dont try to make me look like an ass for what happened.

I already expected that the themes would be getting into Khameleon,  thats not what the issue here was with me and you are all acting like thats what it is. I personally dont have anything against Cake and I dont even know him or any of you guys.   But it seems it would be common courtesy not to take something from a developers beta release, which he was not part of, regardless of what it is, code, artwork, whatever, and incoporate it into your own software, to me thats wrong.  How you guys could be supportive of that is beyond me.  It would have just been more respectful to ask or discuss it first.

I think it would be nice for people to work together, but this isnt working together.  Out of anger I banned you from my forum Cake, but I had a chance to cool off last night and as a gesture of truce, I lifted it if you even care. 
I do think this thread should be left alone or maybe Cake can start a new for his next release to clean it up.

[headkaze]

Bottom line is:

1. He should have asked permission to use your artwork
2. He's removed the download
3. Can't we all just along?

I agree maybe this thread should go to post hell so Cake can start a new one? It annoys me when my software release threads get full of OT posts.

[waveryder]

I cant believe that anyone would seriously claim ownership of any of the artwork that gets used in frontends 

[BadBoyBill]

I cant believe that anyone would seriously claim ownership of any of the artwork that gets used in frontends 

Another person that doesnt know how to read thoroughly

[Dazz]

I cant believe that anyone would seriously claim ownership of any of the artwork that gets used in frontends 

No one is claiming ownership over artwork...  We all know how that goes.  The deal is that some of the artwork that was included was artwork that was created and hand drawn or artwork that did not exist until it was created by our group.  The layout files for the questioned included themes is owned code and taken word for word.  So yes,  while it isn't copy written, ownership could be granted legally on the files/artwork in question.

Try reading the thread next time...

[waveryder]

Another person that doesnt know how to read thoroughly

Or another person who doesn't know how to punctuate thoroughly.

Trying to offer some perspective to what is frankly becoming a boring argument. I mean lets face it how many HS threads do you actually need? Perhaps you should stop having your "hissy fit" here and instead take it private or to another thread rather than hijacking this one. You do realize this is a front end your arguing about.....a front end for playing obsolete games. I think you guys really need to calm down and remember this isn't the "real world". 

[Cakemeister]

I am working on a few things for the frontend this weekend.

1) Some of my model code (3ds models of cabinets) has suffered some bit rot so I have to fix that. I'll also be putting in a demo of that.

2) Diagnostics for Gonzo's frame rate problem, which I suspect is due to the frontend using OpenGL features that his card doesn't support.

3) Particle-ization of text. Now that I have a particle engine, why not? is an incredibly eye-popping frontend demo. I hope to have a way to have animations of text behave like particles as the video shows.

4) Remove offensive artwork and demo. 

5) Addition of a "loop" parameter to animations so that an animation will loop. This can serve several purposes, such as animating the graphic of a button and arrow, animating an object to go onto and off of the screen periodically, such as the "Toasty" guy from Mortal Kombat, and so on.

[brian_hoffman]

Those sound like great features I have d/l your FE and it is quite an accomplishment.

[headkaze]

3) Particle-ization of text. Now that I have a particle engine, why not? is an incredibly eye-popping frontend demo. I hope to have a way to have animations of text behave like particles as the video shows.

You might be better off using your tweening code with a delay for each character rather than your particle engine That's all I'm going to say as I think I've given away enough good ideas for now