Fighting a Traffic Ticket in Court - UPDATE: I WON!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jdurg]

Today was one of the happiest days of recent memory.    I had submitted my ticket to the courts as "Not Guilty" and received a few letters from them over the past four or five weeks.  One of which just said that my Not Guilty Plea had been received, and another stating that the case was being transferred to the Norwich Superior Court for processing and that they'd get in touch with me for my court date.

Today, I received another letter in the mail from the State's Office of the Clerk of the Superior Court.  Inside the letter was the following (With items X'd out to preserve my privacy):

"Docket Number: XXXX-XXXX-XXXXXXX-X
Summons Number:  XXXXXX
Date of Summons: 01/08/2008
STATE OF CONNECTICUT
V.
JUSTIN X XXXXXXX


YOU AE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT:  On 03/03/2008,
A NOLE PROSEQUI WAS ENTERED BY THE PROSECUTING AUTHORITY (Pr. Bk. 39-29)

This notice means that the case shown above pending against you has been disposed.  You are NOT REQUIRED to appear in court or pay any fines, fees, costs, or surcharges which may have been applicable if you had been found guilty of this offense.  The Department of Motor Vehicles or the appropriate Arresting Agency will be notified of this disposition by the court.

Office of the Clerk."

 

Okay, last night I got screwed by an overzealous police officer.  I was passing through an intersection when the light turned red as my car was directly underneath it.  Thus, my front half of the car was inside the intersection and the back two wheels were behind the "line".  This was a fairly large intersection so it took me some time to safely traverse it.  As I finished with my turn, I saw the nasty flashing red and blue lights.    

The cop comes up to me and asks for the regular stuff, then proceeds to state that I ran the red light.  I stated that I was already in the intersection so I had the right to continue on my way.  He said that his light was green when he saw me going through so I must have run the red light.  (Obviously failing to see that the intersection is a very large one and takes a few seconds to actually get through it.  So when I was completing my trek through it there is a good chance that his light had turned green).

The cop also stated that my insurance card had expired (which it hasn't.  He just couldn't read the words that said "Valid for one year after effective date".  The effective date was in September of last year).  So he started chewing me out for not having proof of insurance.  I said, "You must be reading this incorrectly because I know I have insurance.  How else would I have been able to re-register my car a few months ago?"  He just gave me this snotty "Well just be thankful I'm not arresting you and having your car towed".  He then gave me the ticket and I said "Thank you officer.  I'll see you in court."

On the ticket, the cop didn't fill it out in full.  The time was not designated as AM or PM, and various other bits of information are just wrong.  Because of this and the fact that I'm showing up to court to fight this, what are the chances that it gets waived because of the failure of the cop to fill out the forms properly?  (What he did fill out is so completely illegible that I actually need to go to court just to see what the fine is.  I can't tell if it's $124, $154, $174, or $194).  It was a young kid too.  Probably just out of the police acadamy and wanted to "prove" that he's a real cop.  Well son, you're going to get a harsh lesson about being a cop now.   

[missioncontrol]

you word against his... you aren't going to beat the system with technicallities such as "this wasn't filled out" or "I can't read this"

just because the light is yellow doesn't mean to speed up to beat if before it goes red. If his light turned green then you obviously weren't driving with due care.

quit your bitching just because you got caught....

[Jdurg]

you word against his... you aren't going to beat the system with technicallities such as "this wasn't filled out" or "I can't read this"

just because the light is yellow doesn't mean to speed up to beat if before it goes red. If his light turned green then you obviously weren't driving with due care.

quit your bitching just because you got caught....

1):  I didn't increase my speed at all to get through the intersection.
2):  I was already in the intersection when the light turned red, and according to the statute I was ticketed for that means I have every legal right to continue on my way.  "14-299 (2) Yellow: Vehicular traffic facing a steady yellow signal is thereby warned that the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter, when vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the intersection unless so close to the intersection that a stop cannot be made in safety; pedestrians facing a steady yellow signal, except when directed by separate pedestrian-control signals, are thereby advised that there is insufficient time to cross the roadway before a red indication is shown and no pedestrian shall then start to cross the roadway."
3):  The intersection is where two four lane roads combine.  Therefore, when entering the intersection it takes approximately 3 seconds for you to make a complete left hand turn.  The light will therefore turn green for the other side while you are completing your turn.
4):  Asking the judge to clarify the report on the ticket for me will not directly state that the cop was incompetent.  It will simply show that the manner in which the cop filled out the ticket may indicate a poor performance by the officer.


So I didn't get caught doing anything.  If I did something wrong I'd pay the fine.  I didn't do anything wrong and I now have legal proof of it.  I win.   

[myntik1]

fighting the law ain't easy.  as missioncontrol stated people don't beat the man on technicalities.  I always hear people say they hope the cop doesn't show. In MA you go in front of a magistrate and in most cases the cop isn't there.  Anyway the magistrate hears traffic cases all day, every day and he has a copy of your driving record in front of him.  That ticket you got speeding to the Van Halen concert in '84 he knows about.  He knows when you've bad or good.  And he's heard everything from I had to go to the bathroom, to I had a sick kid at daycare, etc.  So unless you have something truly noteworthy you're not getting off.  With that said my old roommate did get off because his step-father owned a service station.  He had his stepdad (who has a different last name) right up a receipt saying they changed the pumpkin and axle on his hillbilly pickup truck and didn't recalibrate his speedometer.  More often then not they'll reduce the ticket to make you happy.  In most cases the ticket doesn't hurt, the extra insurance premium for the next 6 years does though.  Good luck.

[tommy]

edit by saint. For the love of Pete stop thread crapping and pissing on each other.

[ChadTower]

You don't have legal proof, you have your word.  Proof would be video of the incident.  You saying "it was yellow when I entered the intersection" isn't any more proof than the Officer's word that "it was red when he entered the intersection"...

...except that he is a Police Officer, and you're not, so in a court of law more often than not his word wins.

[missioncontrol]

the police officer also has a dash cam, which could very well show his light was green....

[Jdurg]

the police officer also has a dash cam, which could very well show his light was green....

I pray to god he does have a dash cam because then I will have video evidence that I was correct.  The cop is a new officer.  I just got confirmation of that.  My driving record is immaculate so I'm not worried about that either.  I am going to win this case and I know it. 

[CCM]

Does the ticket say anything about you not having insurance?  If it does and the cop flat out didn't read your insurance card correctly, it may help your case.

[saint]

It's worth going to court because they'll often reduce the fine just because you showed up, and if you can avoid the insurance hit altogether that's a bonus.

Doesn't matter what the facts are though, as presented I give you about a 50% chance at best of beating this altogether. It's not your interpretation of the traffic laws in question, it's your opinion vs. the police officer's as to where exactly you were at what point in time unless there's a witness or video proof.

Good luck.

--- saint


This thread heavily edited by saint

[tommy]

edit by saint. For the love of Pete stop thread crapping and pissing on each other.

I guess one member telling another to stop bitching is ok with you, but one member pointing out that was said is going too far.

[ChadTower]

edit by saint. For the love of Pete stop thread crapping and pissing on each other.

[missioncontrol]

sorry Saint, just got pissed....

Back on topic... I agree with Saint it is worth going to court for the chance of a reduction, but if you do decide to fight it you will lose the opportunity of a fine reduction if you end up losing the battle.

[CCM]

It's worth going to court because they'll often reduce the fine just because you showed up, and if you can avoid the insurance hit altogether that's a bonus.

--- saint


This thread heavily edited by saint

That's a great point.  I've gone to traffic court a few times for speeding tickets, and although I've never had one thrown out, they were all reduced to save me points on my license.  It can't hurt to fight it.

[saint]

edit by saint. For the love of Pete stop thread crapping and pissing on each other.

I guess one member telling another to stop bitching is ok with you, but one member pointing out that was said is going too far.

Yes.

[tommy]

Yes? 

[ChadTower]

The only time I've ever fought a ticket the cop showed up on his day off.  Turns out it was right in front of his damn house - the ticket was for 20 in a 15 on a barely used back road - and he doesn't like people driving through his little block at all.  Stupid, stupid Rhode Island.  Burned a vacation day and got the full fine and points on my license/insurance hit.

[knave]

I've contested a few tickets and won.  But not by arguing with the officer.  The judge wants to hear a defence.  You're defense is that the light was yellow when you entered the intersection. I don't think that this alone in enough.  Usually the officer's word is enough...

If this were me I'd state my defence...and then ask for probation.  The judge may or may not ask where you heard of probation...just say, "from a friend".  If you have a clean record there is a really good chance that he will accept.  This means you don't pay and nothing goes on your record as long as you don't get another ticket in 6 months or a year (whatever he sets it for).

If this doesn't work than you can ask for a trial, prepair your defence and hope the officer doesn't show.  If things don't look good ask for traffic school.  (you pay the fine but nothing on your record) The trial judge isn't supposet to do traffic school but if you are nice it's always a better option than losing.

I have found that other than stating a defence arguing with or disagreeing with the officer or judge gets you nothing.

Good luck.

[Jdurg]

It's worth going to court because they'll often reduce the fine just because you showed up, and if you can avoid the insurance hit altogether that's a bonus.

--- saint


This thread heavily edited by saint

That's a great point.  I've gone to traffic court a few times for speeding tickets, and although I've never had one thrown out, they were all reduced to save me points on my license.  It can't hurt to fight it.

And honestly that is what I hope this turns out to be.  I truly feel that I have been wronged by an officer trying a bit too hard to "fit-in".  What I am really hoping for is to get the literal infraction recorded on the ticket clarified a little since much of what is written is very difficult to make out.

If the officer decides to bargain with me and remove the ticket if I make an equal donation to a specific police charity, then I'll oblidge.  In that case, yes, I'm still being wronged but at least the money is going to a good cause.  

[saint]

Yes? 

Yes. MC told him he was SOL and, albeit colorfully, told him to give up and take the ticket. Note I didn't agree with him, but I don't object to the way he said what he said. It was just on the edge of keeping things PG but I thought it was fine. His post was also on topic and related to the discussion at hand.

Your post was barely, if at all, related to the topic at hand. The purpose of your post was to call MC out in a manner that only serves to antagonize.

So... yes.

[tommy]

Ok, I guess the line you are trying to draw in the sand to where members are calling each other names and not is not very clear, but only to you.

Let all us know to what degree we are allowed to berate the other.

[MaximRecoil]

sorry Saint, just got pissed....

Back on topic... I agree with Saint it is worth going to court for the chance of a reduction, but if you do decide to fight it you will lose the opportunity of a fine reduction if you end up losing the battle.

Fighting it is the only way to get a fine reduction. If you go there and plead guilty, you pay the full fine. And of course, if you don't go at all and simply send in payment, they expect the full fine too.

I had a fine reduced one time because I was driving someone else's vehicle with an expired registration (or inspection sticker, or something—it was like 15 years ago) and I told the judge I didn't know it was expired. It was only a $10 reduction though ($50 instead of $60).

[knave]

Don't do anything until you get the official ticket in the mail.

I'm not really sure if anything written on the ticket matters at all.  The ticket is for running a red light.  You are peading "not Guilty" because you say the light was not red.  Asking about little details can and will annoy the judge...for right or wrong an annoyed judge is less likely to rule in your favor.

Again, I'm hoping you can benifit from my exp. Officers rarley back down on anything...even just what they wrote on the ticket. 

Final point...use the system don't fight it.  Even if you don't agree/like how it works or think it's unfair. It IS unfair.

[shmokes]

Before fighting it's worth looking into whether a fine reduction is possible.  I fought a ticket recently and the judge informed me that she no longer had any discretion over traffic fines.  She was bound by mandatory sentencing guidelines.  It really sucked because I was not arguing that I was innocent, but rather that under the circumstances my fine should be reduced or waived.  The judge seemed to agree with me.  Additionally, going to court waived my ability to do one of those traffic school sessions that keep the ticket from adding any points to your record or affecting insurance.  Lose/lose.

Also, keep in mind that when it's just your word against the police officer's, the police officer's will trump yours as a matter of course.  It is simply the way the court system works.  Period. 

Lastly, the police officer's light did not turn green the second that yours turned red.  There are a few seconds where both lights remain red in order to clear the intersection of cars that were waiting to turn left until oncoming traffic had stopped.  I'm inclined to think that you ran the red light -- especially since the rule for left-turns (you said you were turning) is often different than the one for straight.  In many jurisdictions, if you are not already in the intersection when it turns yellow you MUST stop in the left-turn lane.  Only when you are going straight does the rule say that you can continue through so long as you're in the intersection when it turns red.

In any case, if his light turned green while you were still in the intersection that means your light had already been red for a few seconds.  You clearly could have stopped safely when you saw the yellow light (assuming you were paying attention and actually saw the light turn yellow).  You should have stopped.  That's my opinion, and I suspect that will be the opinion of the court.  Fight it and you will waste your time, pay the full amount, and may find (as I did the last time I tried to fight a ticket) that you are actually in a worse position than if you had just paid the fine.

Drive safely.

[missioncontrol]

sorry Saint, just got pissed....

Back on topic... I agree with Saint it is worth going to court for the chance of a reduction, but if you do decide to fight it you will lose the opportunity of a fine reduction if you end up losing the battle.

Fighting it is the only way to get a fine reduction. If you go there and plead guilty, you pay the full fine. And of course, if you don't go at all and simply send in payment, they expect the full fine too.

I had a fine reduced one time because I was driving someone else's vehicle with an expired registration (or inspection sticker, or something—it was like 15 years ago) and I told the judge I didn't know it was expired. It was only a $10 reduction though ($50 instead of $60).

guess it depends on the state/county....

Here:

don't show up = pay full amount

show up = offered a reduction of the traffic infraction lower fine

show up and fight = reduction offer withdrawn and now risk the full amount if you lose.

Here, they generally have a line for traffic court, a few guys in suits come out look at tickets make the reduction offers and you decide to take or leave it. This all happens before you even see the judge. You are given the chance to plead guilty to a lesser offense then you go pay your fine and it's over.

also if you do take the lesser offense (if its offered) and your insurance tries to hit you hard with an increase and your record is spotless otherwise, call them up and ---smurfette--- about the increase and threaten to take your business elsewhere. The insurance company may overlook the one traffic violation if it risks losing a good customer.

[ChadTower]

You clearly could have stopped safely when you saw the yellow light (assuming you were paying attention and actually saw the light turn yellow).

I'd love to see someone present an "I wasn't paying enough attention to stop safely" defense.   

You may also want to consider whether or not you want to spend your time in court fighting a traffic ticket.  Is it worth burning a day off work?  If your record is so immaculate, odds are you won't get more until after this one is out of range for higher penalties, so it may not be worth your time.

[Samstag]

2):  I was already in the intersection when the light turned red, and according to the statute I was ticketed for that means I have every legal right to continue on my way.  "14-299 (2) Yellow: Vehicular traffic facing a steady yellow signal is thereby warned that the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter, when vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the intersection unless so close to the intersection that a stop cannot be made in safety; pedestrians facing a steady yellow signal, except when directed by separate pedestrian-control signals, are thereby advised that there is insufficient time to cross the roadway before a red indication is shown and no pedestrian shall then start to cross the roadway."

You're misinterpreting the bolded section.  This applies to the yellow signal.  You are expected to immediately slow down and not enter the intersection unless it is unsafe under a yellow light.  Unless the light was malfunctioning, you were well above the speed limit, or you weren't paying attention, you ignored the yellow and so were in the middle of the intersection when it went red.

I'm not aware of any states where your logic would win in court.

[tommy]

There are times when a person is going the speed limit and just so happens to be in the "point of no return" area under the light and can be seen as breaking the law, when they really are not. The problem is so many people like to use this lie that when it really happens to a person it is laughable to cops.

[ChadTower]

I'm not aware of any states where your logic would win in court.

Confusion... delusion... and Alabama.

[Jdurg]

The court is actually within a moderate walking distance from where I work.  Also, the intersection where this occurred isn't a classic "two roads meet" intersection.  It is where the two-lane off-ramp from the highway meets Route 12 which is two lanes in each direction, and then it also intersects with Kings Highway which is one lane in each direction.  To make a full turn from Kings Highway onto Route 12 (which is what I was doing) takes 3 seconds if you are going the speed limit.  The way the traffic light functions there, it is very probably for you to be entering the intersection with your light being yellow and still be in the intersection when the other side is just turning green.

Below is the Google Map satellite view of this location.  I've labelled it to describe the event.  Where my car was when the light turned red meant that I had every right of way according to Connecticut Law to be continuing my left turn onto Route 12 North.  In addition, with this officer being a new officer I question whether he truly knows this light and that he can have a green light showing and I can still be in the intersection when his light turns green.

[MaximRecoil]

guess it depends on the state/county....

Here:

don't show up = pay full amount

show up = offered a reduction of the traffic infraction lower fine

show up and fight = reduction offer withdrawn and now risk the full amount if you lose.

Here, they generally have a line for traffic court, a few guys in suits come out look at tickets make the reduction offers and you decide to take or leave it. This all happens before you even see the judge. You are given the chance to plead guilty to a lesser offense then you go pay your fine and it's over.

also if you do take the lesser offense (if its offered) and your insurance tries to hit you hard with an increase and your record is spotless otherwise, call them up and ---smurf--- about the increase and threaten to take your business elsewhere. The insurance company may overlook the one traffic violation if it risks losing a good customer.

That's interesting. Maybe it is that way here now too. I haven't been to traffic court since the early '90s.

[Barry Barcrest]

POST REMOVED SO NOT TO ANNOY SAINT

[Samstag]

There are times when a person is going the speed limit and just so happens to be in the "point of no return" area under the light and can be seen as breaking the law, when they really are not.

Right.  I addressed those situations under "the light was malfunctioning" and "you weren't paying attention".

[ChadTower]

Hang on you got a ticket for speeding? Didn't you go mad about people speeding down your road and how much you hated it. You wife getting injured when a car slammed into her and all that crap and you are no better than those you complianed about. You say he doesn't like people driving through his block, man you are the biggest hypocrite going.

I did, yes - about people going 55 in a 30.  I was going 20mph in a nonposted 15 zone.

I would be ecstatic about people going past my house at the speed with which I was going past his house. 

Let me repeat - I was going 20mph, and the ticket was written up for 20mph.  Twenty.

[tommy]

The only time I've ever fought a ticket the cop showed up on his day off.  Turns out it was right in front of his damn house - the ticket was for 20 in a 15 on a barely used back road - and he doesn't like people driving through his little block at all.  Stupid, stupid Rhode Island.  Burned a vacation day and got the full fine and points on my license/insurance hit.

Hang on you got a ticket for speeding? Didn't you go mad about people speeding down your road and how much you hated it. You wife getting injured when a car slammed into her and all that crap and you are no better than those you complianed about. You say he doesn't like people driving through his block, man you are the biggest hypocrite going.

Your post was barely, if at all, related to the topic at hand. The purpose of your post was to call chad out in a manner that only serves to antagonize.

fixt

[tommy]

There are times when a person is going the speed limit and just so happens to be in the "point of no return" area under the light and can be seen as breaking the law, when they really are not.

Right.  I addressed those situations under "the light was malfunctioning" and "you weren't paying attention".

No, not malfunctioning and not paying attention, it does happen due to normal speed and light changes at random.

[ChadTower]

There are no random light changes.  They all happen on a specific timeframe with specific intervals between yellow and red.  Always.

[Jdurg]

There are times when a person is going the speed limit and just so happens to be in the "point of no return" area under the light and can be seen as breaking the law, when they really are not.

Right.  I addressed those situations under "the light was malfunctioning" and "you weren't paying attention".

No, not malfunctioning and not paying attention, it does happen due to normal speed and light changes at random.

If you look at the photo I posted, the Bowling Alley is the big white thing.  I made the left onto Kings Highway and the light was still green.  When I got to the Stop Line that I indicated, the light turned yellow.  When I was in the intersection, the light turned red.  Stopping is impossible at that point unless I want to stop in the middle of Route 12.

[Barry Barcrest]

Yeah tommy i went back and read that and removed my post, thanks for pointing it out. My mistake...

[RayB]

UH, the yellow lights are designed precisely to to give a driver enough time to either come to a stop or proceed through if "past the point of no return".

If you find yourself past the point of no return when the light is just turning red, you were either doing one or all of these:
A. Were going to fast.
B. Were not paying enough attention.

In either case YOU are responsible for your vehicle ending up in the intersection when the light was red. Rationalize it all you want, you're guilty of that, so take the punishment. I'm glad you got caught. It really pisses me off when I see people just pushing to get through yellows up until the last second. That's just not safe.