Fighting a Traffic Ticket in Court - UPDATE: I WON!!!!!!!!!!!

[ahofle]

Where is NS?
I saw those blinking green lights for the first time in Mexico and have wondered why we don't have them here ever since (although I guess your quote answers that questions LOL).  I sometimes use the adjacent crosswalk light as an indication of a stale green light.  Many of the ones around here actually have a countdown on them to make it even more obvious that you need to slow down well ahead of it changing to amber.

[ChadTower]

Nova Scotia.

[shardian]

There is a highway across the river in Ohio that has stop lights here and there. They installed clever lights a ways back from the stop light that basically says "if this light is blinking, go ahead and prep to stop at the light ahead.

[ChadTower]

Way back in drivers' ed the teacher told us that if you're 300 yards from a green light, and you're not on a 50mph road, you're not going to make the green.  Be ready to stop.  I still find that to be pretty consistently true.

[danny_galaga]

What you guys aren't understanding is the traffic light itself is located in the intersection.  Here in the state of CT, the intersection is defined as the area where two or more roads meet and the intersection itself is the space beyond the white stop line which is present on each road.  At EVERY stop light and stop sign there is a white line in the pavement.  It is required by LAW to be there.  You MUST stop before this white line.  If you progress pass this white line, by the law of the land you are IN THE INTERSECTION.

At this intersection that I am being ticketed for, the white line that denotes the start of the intersection is about ten yards BEFORE the traffic light.  They can't errect a pole in the middle of Route 1 for the traffic light.  So the light that is applicable to the road I was travelling on is located in the middle of the divider that separates northbound and southbound.  I was past the line and should have typed "light" in my initial post.  Sorry about that. 

But this isn't a case where the traffic light is directly above where the stop line is placed.  At this intersection they can't physically place it there.

i've tried, how i've tried to interpret this in any other way:

Okay, last night I got screwed by an overzealous police officer.  I was passing through an intersection when the light turned red as my car was directly underneath it.

but i just can't seem to read it in any other way than - YOU RAN A RED LIGHT
go on. when you go to court, tell the judge or magistrate or whatever exactly what you've said here. as soon as you've finished that sentence they will say 'thank you for the confession, here's your fine'...

[billf]

What you guys aren't understanding is the traffic light itself is located in the intersection.  Here in the state of CT, the intersection is defined as the area where two or more roads meet and the intersection itself is the space beyond the white stop line which is present on each road.  At EVERY stop light and stop sign there is a white line in the pavement.  It is required by LAW to be there.  You MUST stop before this white line.  If you progress pass this white line, by the law of the land you are IN THE INTERSECTION.

At this intersection that I am being ticketed for, the white line that denotes the start of the intersection is about ten yards BEFORE the traffic light.  They can't errect a pole in the middle of Route 1 for the traffic light.  So the light that is applicable to the road I was travelling on is located in the middle of the divider that separates northbound and southbound.  I was past the line and should have typed "light" in my initial post.  Sorry about that. 

But this isn't a case where the traffic light is directly above where the stop line is placed.  At this intersection they can't physically place it there.

i've tried, how i've tried to interpret this in any other way:

Okay, last night I got screwed by an overzealous police officer.  I was passing through an intersection when the light turned red as my car was directly underneath it.

but i just can't seem to read it in any other way than - YOU RAN A RED LIGHT
go on. when you go to court, tell the judge or magistrate or whatever exactly what you've said here. as soon as you've finished that sentence they will say 'thank you for the confession, here's your fine'...

His claim is he was already in the intersection when the light turned red.  Do you suggest he come to a complete stop in the intersection, thus causing an unsafe situation?  Not sure how it works in Aussieland, but in the U.S. if you are in the intersection when the light turns red, you can safely and cautiously proceed through it so you don't cause a worse situation.  This is also the reason for the "all red" status of traffic signals at intersections.  A typical all "red status" is 2 to 3 seconds which allows for the intersection to clear of cars.

[patrickl]

His claim is he was already in the intersection when the light turned red.  Do you suggest he come to a complete stop in the intersection, thus causing an unsafe situation?

The question is if he could have stopped on yellow before he entered the intersection. His description of the event tells me he must have had ample time to stop before the intersection. Or indeed the yellow period must have been so incredibly short that you cannot make it across the intersection during this period.

[danny_galaga]

What you guys aren't understanding is the traffic light itself is located in the intersection.  Here in the state of CT, the intersection is defined as the area where two or more roads meet and the intersection itself is the space beyond the white stop line which is present on each road.  At EVERY stop light and stop sign there is a white line in the pavement.  It is required by LAW to be there.  You MUST stop before this white line.  If you progress pass this white line, by the law of the land you are IN THE INTERSECTION.

At this intersection that I am being ticketed for, the white line that denotes the start of the intersection is about ten yards BEFORE the traffic light.  They can't errect a pole in the middle of Route 1 for the traffic light.  So the light that is applicable to the road I was travelling on is located in the middle of the divider that separates northbound and southbound.  I was past the line and should have typed "light" in my initial post.  Sorry about that. 

But this isn't a case where the traffic light is directly above where the stop line is placed.  At this intersection they can't physically place it there.

i've tried, how i've tried to interpret this in any other way:

Okay, last night I got screwed by an overzealous police officer.  I was passing through an intersection when the light turned red as my car was directly underneath it.

but i just can't seem to read it in any other way than - YOU RAN A RED LIGHT
go on. when you go to court, tell the judge or magistrate or whatever exactly what you've said here. as soon as you've finished that sentence they will say 'thank you for the confession, here's your fine'...

His claim is he was already in the intersection when the light turned red.  Do you suggest he come to a complete stop in the intersection, thus causing an unsafe situation?  Not sure how it works in Aussieland, but in the U.S. if you are in the intersection when the light turns red, you can safely and cautiously proceed through it so you don't cause a worse situation.  This is also the reason for the "all red" status of traffic signals at intersections.  A typical all "red status" is 2 to 3 seconds which allows for the intersection to clear of cars.

my bad. in aussieland, many intersections have two sets of lights. one set right on each opposing stop line. i was picturing him passing the closest set when it turned red, which would mean he was passing over the stop line when it did. now i think about it, you mercans tend to have huge intersections with one set of lights just hanging in the middle. i remember the first time i noticed it was because i subconsciously gauged the distance via the stop lights and nearly ended up stopping IN the intersection (lights are that much further away) i see what you mean now. just like jdurg typed in the post i sarcastically quoted 

[AcidArmitage]

this ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- happened to me 30 minutes ago and it pissed me off so much i wanna take it to court, too... 

[shardian]

my bad. in aussieland, many intersections have two sets of lights. one set right on each opposing stop line. i was picturing him passing the closest set when it turned red, which would mean he was passing over the stop line when it did. now i think about it, you mercans tend to have huge intersections with one set of lights just hanging in the middle. i remember the first time i noticed it was because i subconsciously gauged the distance via the stop lights and nearly ended up stopping IN the intersection (lights are that much further away) i see what you mean now. just like jdurg typed in the post i sarcastically quoted 

My one and only wreck was at an intersection in which the light was on the other side of the intersection, about 50 feet from the stop point. I slammed a  car coming off of the interstate exit. I realized what I did, apologized to the elderly couple, told the cop straight up it was red. No bitching, no arguing about the placement or anything. The cop commended my honesty and decided not to cite me for anything, the other driver never sued me for anything, and my insurance company decided not to penalize me. I was a lucky sumbitch that day...except for I've had non-stop irritating back pain since then of course.

[billf]

[I was a lucky sumbitch that day...except for I've had non-stop irritating back pain since then of course.

Sue those elderly people for all they got - they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and got in your way.  Joking of course!   

[ChadTower]

except for I've had non-stop irritating back pain since then of course.

Ever have the specific cause determined?  MRI/Xrays?  I have two herniated discs - it can be a ---smurfette---, especially if I get to a certain weight.

[shardian]

except for I've had non-stop irritating back pain since then of course.

Ever have the specific cause determined?  MRI/Xrays?  I have two herniated discs - it can be a ---smurf---, especially if I get to a certain weight.

Eh, I've always had a curvature in between my shoulder blades, and minor spina-bifida (I basically have a 6th lumbar vertebrae - not the debilitating kind thank goodness). After the wreck, I had x-rays redone and the curvature in my spine had actually changed to the other side. I've had irritation and pain there every since. Chiropractor said there isn't much to do about it.

[ChadTower]

Eh, I've always had a curvature in between my shoulder blades, and minor spina-bifida (I basically have a 6th lumbar vertebrae - not the debilitating kind thank goodness). After the wreck, I had x-rays redone and the curvature in my spine had actually changed to the other side. I've had irritation and pain there every since. Chiropractor said there isn't much to do about it.

Ow.  When even the chiropractor says you can't change it, you know it's true... I'm all for quality chiropractic care, but some guys aren't 100% ethical, and will adjust anything that walks as many time as they can get the customer to pay.

[shardian]

Eh, I've always had a curvature in between my shoulder blades, and minor spina-bifida (I basically have a 6th lumbar vertebrae - not the debilitating kind thank goodness). After the wreck, I had x-rays redone and the curvature in my spine had actually changed to the other side. I've had irritation and pain there every since. Chiropractor said there isn't much to do about it.

Ow.  When even the chiropractor says you can't change it, you know it's true... I'm all for quality chiropractic care, but some guys aren't 100% ethical, and will adjust anything that walks as many time as they can get the customer to pay.

Well, my wife's Dad, and two of her Uncles are Chiropractors. We are also close friends with our local Chiropractors. We used to babysit for both of them regularly. Neither of them accepted any money for any of my Chiropractor care after the accident. Man, I miss those tri-weekly adjustments AND massages. ... 

But yes, long term I'm just stuck with it.

[ChadTower]

Well, my wife's Dad, and two of her Uncles are Chiropractors.

Man, I miss those tri-weekly adjustments AND massages. ... 

saint's note. Bad language. Bad bad bad language. Need to add warnings to this stuff! Bad Chad, bad Chad!


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii49pLl5P5c[/youtube]


One of the greatest songs ever written.   

[shardian]

I had to turn on my speakers just to see if you really posted an unedited version. You dirty, dirty boy you!

[ChadTower]

It wouldn't be nearly as funny edited.   

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Well, I just got out of my New England court this morning, fighting almost this exact same ticket...and I WON! 
No insurance increase for me.

As it turned out, I had a 10:15am appt, got there at 9:30 and preceded to wait until 11:30am. And it wasn't one of those deals where you get to go off into a side room to make a deal with some representative of the court. I had to walk into a court-room and speak before a Magistrate and make a case.

I was going to initially plead "guilty with explanation" and request a reduced fine (or no points), but the way they presented the case to me, they just flat-out asked me defend myself against the citation.

I about freaked, but thank goodness I've got some negotiating skills. My dad always wanted me to be a lawyer. 

[AcidArmitage]

lucky ---smurfette---

[Jdurg]

Well, I just got out of my New England court this morning, fighting almost this exact same ticket...and I WON! 
No insurance increase for me.

As it turned out, I had a 10:15am appt, got there at 9:30 and preceded to wait until 11:30am. And it wasn't one of those deals where you get to go off into a side room to make a deal with some representative of the court. I had to walk into a court-room and speak before a Magistrate and make a case.

I was going to initially plead "guilty with explanation" and request a reduced fine (or no points), but the way they presented the case to me, they just flat-out asked me defend myself against the citation.

I about freaked, but thank goodness I've got some negotiating skills. My dad always wanted me to be a lawyer. 

Congrats!  I'm still awaiting a response from the court regarding my Not Guilty plea.  Doesn't bother me if it takes this long.  In the meantime, I've found out from many people that the particular officer who pulled this on me isn't well liked by his peers or the general public.  In addition, he's not "new to the force" like I thought he was.  He apparently came aboard last year and has been a royal PITA to many people.  (One of my poker buddy's Brother-In-Law works on the force in the same town). 

The thing I may have going for me is that this cop rarely shows up to court and just expects people to plead guilty and pay the fines.  So I may luck out here.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I don't think the cop showing up or not matters in my area, since there were no police officers in the court-room and certainly no officer in my hearing, and the Magistrate didn't seem bothered by it at all.

[shardian]

I don't think the cop showing up or not matters in my area, since there were no police officers in the court-room and certainly no officer in my hearing, and the Magistrate didn't seem bothered by it at all.

I've never understood this "if the cop doesn't show up you get off" thing. I would surely hope that cops wouldn't have to spend a bulk of their time showing up to traffic court for every single ticket they write. That is just crazy.

[Jdurg]

I don't think the cop showing up or not matters in my area, since there were no police officers in the court-room and certainly no officer in my hearing, and the Magistrate didn't seem bothered by it at all.

I've never understood this "if the cop doesn't show up you get off" thing. I would surely hope that cops wouldn't have to spend a bulk of their time showing up to traffic court for every single ticket they write. That is just crazy.

The basis of it is that if you show up and the cop doesn't, whatever you state under oath becomes the only evidence in the case and you can refute anything and everything the cop has in his "notes" and it will become valid evidence.  As a result, most courts don't want to waste the time of actually having to hold the trial if the officer doesn't show up so they just rule in favor of the defendant to save themselves time.

[SithMaster]

Just dont insult the judge it may negatively impact your case.

[shardian]

The basis of it is that if you show up and the cop doesn't, whatever you state under oath becomes the only evidence in the case and you can refute anything and everything the cop has in his "notes" and it will become valid evidence.  As a result, most courts don't want to waste the time of actually having to hold the trial if the officer doesn't show up so they just rule in favor of the defendant to save themselves time.

I still don't buy this. A cop's notes and observations are legal evidence. They don't need to be there to make their statement "official". A judge would more often than not take ANY report of an officer of the law as fact before any "opinion" of an offender saying whatever they have to in order to get out of a $100 fine.

Judges wishing to save time, push you out the door - I buy that. They can make up their mind pretty quick if you are there just to weasel out, or if you legitimately feel you didn't deserve a ticket.

[ahofle]

They don't have to show up to arraignments (the initial court proceeding where 99% of cases are closed).  They only have to show up if you plead not guilty and schedule a trial by jury or trial by court.  They are basically the only prosecution witness.  You couldn't have a murder trial for example using only some notes from some guy who saw the thing.

[ChadTower]

You couldn't have a murder trial for example using only some notes from some guy who saw the thing.

Yeah, eff written depositions.   

[ahofle]

You still have to show up to court if you give a written deposition the vast majority of the time.  Also, officer notes on the back of your traffic summons hardly counts as a written deposition (would the defense attorney question the piece of paper at the trial?), so that would make the process even more lengthy and expensive than having the cop show up for 15 minutes at the trial.

[shmokes]

Sixth Amendment:

    * Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and other rights of the accused.

    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.   (Emphasis added)

I believe this is why cases are typically dismissed if the cop does not show up to trial. 

[ChadTower]

    In all criminal prosecutions,

Isn't traffic court civil?

EDIT:  looked it up, apparently not.  Doh.

EDIT2:  or maybe it is.  Some states seem to vary based on the violation.

[Jdurg]

Well, as the updated post title states and the updated initial post details, I WON!!!  The court dismissed the case and I don't have to pay one cent.  This was the first time I used our country's judicial system an I am so happy that it worked in my favor.   

[ahofle]

What happened?  Details please!!!

[Jdurg]

Well I updated the first post with the details, but I'll explain them here as well.   

A few weeks ago, I got a letter for the Centralized Infraction Bureau stating that my case was transferred to the local Superior Court in Norwich.  I would hear from the court regarding my court date.  Well, time went on and I didn't hear anything from the court.  I got home from work today and there was a letter in my mailbox from the State Superior Court's Clerk's Office.  I figured this would be my official court date.

I opened the letter and just quickly glanced through and saw a bunch of full capital letters and a date of 03/03/2008.  Initially, I thought "Oh crap!  I missed the court date because the letter in the mail was lost!"  I then further read the letter and saw that the Prosecutor filed a Nolle Prosequi which means that they do not want to prosecute at this time.  What's nice is that here in CT, if they file a Nolle Prosequi it means that the charges are dropped.  Basically, the State decided to cancel the ticket before it even got to trial.  Apparently the letter I wrote explaining why I felt I was innocent was accepted and the State felt that it would be a waste of their time to prosecute me.  The charges have been officially dropped and I basically won my fight.

The filing of the Nolle Prosequi doesn't mean that I won the case or that the State lost.  It just means that they decided not to bother with it and treat it as though it never happened.   

[danny_galaga]

i hereby announce that i am a monkeys uncle!

[protokatie]

I walk to work...

And I only have a car when I cant walk to work. I buy 300 dollar junkers I keep for a year until they are more worth as scrap metal than as a car. I think in the 12 years I have had my licence, I havent paid more than 2500 dollars for all of my cars (plus maintenance, but not including gas (of course)). That is, I have spent 2500 bucks in all of my driving years for a car, so dont wonder why I think it odd someone would buy a car for 30 thousand...

[kkingsto]

Just watch out for these ticket writers in Manhattan!!   Apparently they ticketed a car for parking 1 MINUTE past the no parking time limit.  Got down the make (Honda) and somehow got MY plate, and said it was a Grey 2 door sedan.     Never saw a ticket.   The vehicle I have with that plate is a BLUE minivan and it was down in Alabama at the time of the incident.

So sometime in early February, I get this letter from the City of New York thanking me for sending in my ticket.  And when I read that, I'm like "WHAT TICKET?!?!"  Found a copy of the ticket online and saw the inaccuracies of it (as mentioned above).

So, after consulting a lawyer friend, we sent a copy of the registration and an explaination that 1) the car did NOT match the description and 2) the vehicle was no where near NYC at the time (It was in my in-laws garage!).

Couple days ago, I get a letter from the city and it says the ticket has been dismissed due to the fact the registration expiration date couldn't be read due to the rain.  WTF!    No mention of the letter I sent.

[Dartful Dodger]

 I got pulled over a week ago for speeding on a way to a job interview.  50 in a 35.  When I stopped my car I was parked in front of a 45mph sign. The officer explained that it was 35 at the hill where he caught me.

He said he was going to take my license for bond.  After a few minutes he came back to my car and said my plate was expired and he wasn't going to give me a ticket for that but he would need my signature for bond because I would need my license to get the new plate sticker.

At the DMV I gave them my license to read the address and that’s when they told me my license had expired over two months ago.  Since I was there I got a new license too.

I was telling a friend about the whole thing and he thinks the officer was either at the end of his shift and didn’t want to deal with it, or he just didn’t want to arrest the guy on his way to a job interview.  There’s no way he would have missed my license being expired.   I don't think you need your license to get a plate sticker and when I got the new one, the whole design of the license was redone.   Plus I think it’s got to come up on the computer. 

Either way I don't feel as bad about the ticket now.