Fighting a Traffic Ticket in Court - UPDATE: I WON!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jdurg]

Today was one of the happiest days of recent memory.    I had submitted my ticket to the courts as "Not Guilty" and received a few letters from them over the past four or five weeks.  One of which just said that my Not Guilty Plea had been received, and another stating that the case was being transferred to the Norwich Superior Court for processing and that they'd get in touch with me for my court date.

Today, I received another letter in the mail from the State's Office of the Clerk of the Superior Court.  Inside the letter was the following (With items X'd out to preserve my privacy):

"Docket Number: XXXX-XXXX-XXXXXXX-X
Summons Number:  XXXXXX
Date of Summons: 01/08/2008
STATE OF CONNECTICUT
V.
JUSTIN X XXXXXXX


YOU AE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT:  On 03/03/2008,
A NOLE PROSEQUI WAS ENTERED BY THE PROSECUTING AUTHORITY (Pr. Bk. 39-29)

This notice means that the case shown above pending against you has been disposed.  You are NOT REQUIRED to appear in court or pay any fines, fees, costs, or surcharges which may have been applicable if you had been found guilty of this offense.  The Department of Motor Vehicles or the appropriate Arresting Agency will be notified of this disposition by the court.

Office of the Clerk."

 

Okay, last night I got screwed by an overzealous police officer.  I was passing through an intersection when the light turned red as my car was directly underneath it.  Thus, my front half of the car was inside the intersection and the back two wheels were behind the "line".  This was a fairly large intersection so it took me some time to safely traverse it.  As I finished with my turn, I saw the nasty flashing red and blue lights.    

The cop comes up to me and asks for the regular stuff, then proceeds to state that I ran the red light.  I stated that I was already in the intersection so I had the right to continue on my way.  He said that his light was green when he saw me going through so I must have run the red light.  (Obviously failing to see that the intersection is a very large one and takes a few seconds to actually get through it.  So when I was completing my trek through it there is a good chance that his light had turned green).

The cop also stated that my insurance card had expired (which it hasn't.  He just couldn't read the words that said "Valid for one year after effective date".  The effective date was in September of last year).  So he started chewing me out for not having proof of insurance.  I said, "You must be reading this incorrectly because I know I have insurance.  How else would I have been able to re-register my car a few months ago?"  He just gave me this snotty "Well just be thankful I'm not arresting you and having your car towed".  He then gave me the ticket and I said "Thank you officer.  I'll see you in court."

On the ticket, the cop didn't fill it out in full.  The time was not designated as AM or PM, and various other bits of information are just wrong.  Because of this and the fact that I'm showing up to court to fight this, what are the chances that it gets waived because of the failure of the cop to fill out the forms properly?  (What he did fill out is so completely illegible that I actually need to go to court just to see what the fine is.  I can't tell if it's $124, $154, $174, or $194).  It was a young kid too.  Probably just out of the police acadamy and wanted to "prove" that he's a real cop.  Well son, you're going to get a harsh lesson about being a cop now.   

[missioncontrol]

you word against his... you aren't going to beat the system with technicallities such as "this wasn't filled out" or "I can't read this"

just because the light is yellow doesn't mean to speed up to beat if before it goes red. If his light turned green then you obviously weren't driving with due care.

quit your bitching just because you got caught....

[Jdurg]

you word against his... you aren't going to beat the system with technicallities such as "this wasn't filled out" or "I can't read this"

just because the light is yellow doesn't mean to speed up to beat if before it goes red. If his light turned green then you obviously weren't driving with due care.

quit your bitching just because you got caught....

1):  I didn't increase my speed at all to get through the intersection.
2):  I was already in the intersection when the light turned red, and according to the statute I was ticketed for that means I have every legal right to continue on my way.  "14-299 (2) Yellow: Vehicular traffic facing a steady yellow signal is thereby warned that the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter, when vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the intersection unless so close to the intersection that a stop cannot be made in safety; pedestrians facing a steady yellow signal, except when directed by separate pedestrian-control signals, are thereby advised that there is insufficient time to cross the roadway before a red indication is shown and no pedestrian shall then start to cross the roadway."
3):  The intersection is where two four lane roads combine.  Therefore, when entering the intersection it takes approximately 3 seconds for you to make a complete left hand turn.  The light will therefore turn green for the other side while you are completing your turn.
4):  Asking the judge to clarify the report on the ticket for me will not directly state that the cop was incompetent.  It will simply show that the manner in which the cop filled out the ticket may indicate a poor performance by the officer.


So I didn't get caught doing anything.  If I did something wrong I'd pay the fine.  I didn't do anything wrong and I now have legal proof of it.  I win.   

[myntik1]

fighting the law ain't easy.  as missioncontrol stated people don't beat the man on technicalities.  I always hear people say they hope the cop doesn't show. In MA you go in front of a magistrate and in most cases the cop isn't there.  Anyway the magistrate hears traffic cases all day, every day and he has a copy of your driving record in front of him.  That ticket you got speeding to the Van Halen concert in '84 he knows about.  He knows when you've bad or good.  And he's heard everything from I had to go to the bathroom, to I had a sick kid at daycare, etc.  So unless you have something truly noteworthy you're not getting off.  With that said my old roommate did get off because his step-father owned a service station.  He had his stepdad (who has a different last name) right up a receipt saying they changed the pumpkin and axle on his hillbilly pickup truck and didn't recalibrate his speedometer.  More often then not they'll reduce the ticket to make you happy.  In most cases the ticket doesn't hurt, the extra insurance premium for the next 6 years does though.  Good luck.

[tommy]

edit by saint. For the love of Pete stop thread crapping and pissing on each other.

[ChadTower]

You don't have legal proof, you have your word.  Proof would be video of the incident.  You saying "it was yellow when I entered the intersection" isn't any more proof than the Officer's word that "it was red when he entered the intersection"...

...except that he is a Police Officer, and you're not, so in a court of law more often than not his word wins.

[missioncontrol]

the police officer also has a dash cam, which could very well show his light was green....

[Jdurg]

the police officer also has a dash cam, which could very well show his light was green....

I pray to god he does have a dash cam because then I will have video evidence that I was correct.  The cop is a new officer.  I just got confirmation of that.  My driving record is immaculate so I'm not worried about that either.  I am going to win this case and I know it. 

[CCM]

Does the ticket say anything about you not having insurance?  If it does and the cop flat out didn't read your insurance card correctly, it may help your case.

[saint]

It's worth going to court because they'll often reduce the fine just because you showed up, and if you can avoid the insurance hit altogether that's a bonus.

Doesn't matter what the facts are though, as presented I give you about a 50% chance at best of beating this altogether. It's not your interpretation of the traffic laws in question, it's your opinion vs. the police officer's as to where exactly you were at what point in time unless there's a witness or video proof.

Good luck.

--- saint


This thread heavily edited by saint

[tommy]

edit by saint. For the love of Pete stop thread crapping and pissing on each other.

I guess one member telling another to stop bitching is ok with you, but one member pointing out that was said is going too far.

[ChadTower]

edit by saint. For the love of Pete stop thread crapping and pissing on each other.

[missioncontrol]

sorry Saint, just got pissed....

Back on topic... I agree with Saint it is worth going to court for the chance of a reduction, but if you do decide to fight it you will lose the opportunity of a fine reduction if you end up losing the battle.

[CCM]

It's worth going to court because they'll often reduce the fine just because you showed up, and if you can avoid the insurance hit altogether that's a bonus.

--- saint


This thread heavily edited by saint

That's a great point.  I've gone to traffic court a few times for speeding tickets, and although I've never had one thrown out, they were all reduced to save me points on my license.  It can't hurt to fight it.

[saint]

edit by saint. For the love of Pete stop thread crapping and pissing on each other.

I guess one member telling another to stop bitching is ok with you, but one member pointing out that was said is going too far.

Yes.

[tommy]

Yes? 

[ChadTower]

The only time I've ever fought a ticket the cop showed up on his day off.  Turns out it was right in front of his damn house - the ticket was for 20 in a 15 on a barely used back road - and he doesn't like people driving through his little block at all.  Stupid, stupid Rhode Island.  Burned a vacation day and got the full fine and points on my license/insurance hit.

[knave]

I've contested a few tickets and won.  But not by arguing with the officer.  The judge wants to hear a defence.  You're defense is that the light was yellow when you entered the intersection. I don't think that this alone in enough.  Usually the officer's word is enough...

If this were me I'd state my defence...and then ask for probation.  The judge may or may not ask where you heard of probation...just say, "from a friend".  If you have a clean record there is a really good chance that he will accept.  This means you don't pay and nothing goes on your record as long as you don't get another ticket in 6 months or a year (whatever he sets it for).

If this doesn't work than you can ask for a trial, prepair your defence and hope the officer doesn't show.  If things don't look good ask for traffic school.  (you pay the fine but nothing on your record) The trial judge isn't supposet to do traffic school but if you are nice it's always a better option than losing.

I have found that other than stating a defence arguing with or disagreeing with the officer or judge gets you nothing.

Good luck.

[Jdurg]

It's worth going to court because they'll often reduce the fine just because you showed up, and if you can avoid the insurance hit altogether that's a bonus.

--- saint


This thread heavily edited by saint

That's a great point.  I've gone to traffic court a few times for speeding tickets, and although I've never had one thrown out, they were all reduced to save me points on my license.  It can't hurt to fight it.

And honestly that is what I hope this turns out to be.  I truly feel that I have been wronged by an officer trying a bit too hard to "fit-in".  What I am really hoping for is to get the literal infraction recorded on the ticket clarified a little since much of what is written is very difficult to make out.

If the officer decides to bargain with me and remove the ticket if I make an equal donation to a specific police charity, then I'll oblidge.  In that case, yes, I'm still being wronged but at least the money is going to a good cause.  

[saint]

Yes? 

Yes. MC told him he was SOL and, albeit colorfully, told him to give up and take the ticket. Note I didn't agree with him, but I don't object to the way he said what he said. It was just on the edge of keeping things PG but I thought it was fine. His post was also on topic and related to the discussion at hand.

Your post was barely, if at all, related to the topic at hand. The purpose of your post was to call MC out in a manner that only serves to antagonize.

So... yes.

[tommy]

Ok, I guess the line you are trying to draw in the sand to where members are calling each other names and not is not very clear, but only to you.

Let all us know to what degree we are allowed to berate the other.

[MaximRecoil]

sorry Saint, just got pissed....

Back on topic... I agree with Saint it is worth going to court for the chance of a reduction, but if you do decide to fight it you will lose the opportunity of a fine reduction if you end up losing the battle.

Fighting it is the only way to get a fine reduction. If you go there and plead guilty, you pay the full fine. And of course, if you don't go at all and simply send in payment, they expect the full fine too.

I had a fine reduced one time because I was driving someone else's vehicle with an expired registration (or inspection sticker, or something—it was like 15 years ago) and I told the judge I didn't know it was expired. It was only a $10 reduction though ($50 instead of $60).

[knave]

Don't do anything until you get the official ticket in the mail.

I'm not really sure if anything written on the ticket matters at all.  The ticket is for running a red light.  You are peading "not Guilty" because you say the light was not red.  Asking about little details can and will annoy the judge...for right or wrong an annoyed judge is less likely to rule in your favor.

Again, I'm hoping you can benifit from my exp. Officers rarley back down on anything...even just what they wrote on the ticket. 

Final point...use the system don't fight it.  Even if you don't agree/like how it works or think it's unfair. It IS unfair.

[shmokes]

Before fighting it's worth looking into whether a fine reduction is possible.  I fought a ticket recently and the judge informed me that she no longer had any discretion over traffic fines.  She was bound by mandatory sentencing guidelines.  It really sucked because I was not arguing that I was innocent, but rather that under the circumstances my fine should be reduced or waived.  The judge seemed to agree with me.  Additionally, going to court waived my ability to do one of those traffic school sessions that keep the ticket from adding any points to your record or affecting insurance.  Lose/lose.

Also, keep in mind that when it's just your word against the police officer's, the police officer's will trump yours as a matter of course.  It is simply the way the court system works.  Period. 

Lastly, the police officer's light did not turn green the second that yours turned red.  There are a few seconds where both lights remain red in order to clear the intersection of cars that were waiting to turn left until oncoming traffic had stopped.  I'm inclined to think that you ran the red light -- especially since the rule for left-turns (you said you were turning) is often different than the one for straight.  In many jurisdictions, if you are not already in the intersection when it turns yellow you MUST stop in the left-turn lane.  Only when you are going straight does the rule say that you can continue through so long as you're in the intersection when it turns red.

In any case, if his light turned green while you were still in the intersection that means your light had already been red for a few seconds.  You clearly could have stopped safely when you saw the yellow light (assuming you were paying attention and actually saw the light turn yellow).  You should have stopped.  That's my opinion, and I suspect that will be the opinion of the court.  Fight it and you will waste your time, pay the full amount, and may find (as I did the last time I tried to fight a ticket) that you are actually in a worse position than if you had just paid the fine.

Drive safely.

[missioncontrol]

sorry Saint, just got pissed....

Back on topic... I agree with Saint it is worth going to court for the chance of a reduction, but if you do decide to fight it you will lose the opportunity of a fine reduction if you end up losing the battle.

Fighting it is the only way to get a fine reduction. If you go there and plead guilty, you pay the full fine. And of course, if you don't go at all and simply send in payment, they expect the full fine too.

I had a fine reduced one time because I was driving someone else's vehicle with an expired registration (or inspection sticker, or something—it was like 15 years ago) and I told the judge I didn't know it was expired. It was only a $10 reduction though ($50 instead of $60).

guess it depends on the state/county....

Here:

don't show up = pay full amount

show up = offered a reduction of the traffic infraction lower fine

show up and fight = reduction offer withdrawn and now risk the full amount if you lose.

Here, they generally have a line for traffic court, a few guys in suits come out look at tickets make the reduction offers and you decide to take or leave it. This all happens before you even see the judge. You are given the chance to plead guilty to a lesser offense then you go pay your fine and it's over.

also if you do take the lesser offense (if its offered) and your insurance tries to hit you hard with an increase and your record is spotless otherwise, call them up and ---smurfette--- about the increase and threaten to take your business elsewhere. The insurance company may overlook the one traffic violation if it risks losing a good customer.

[ChadTower]

You clearly could have stopped safely when you saw the yellow light (assuming you were paying attention and actually saw the light turn yellow).

I'd love to see someone present an "I wasn't paying enough attention to stop safely" defense.   

You may also want to consider whether or not you want to spend your time in court fighting a traffic ticket.  Is it worth burning a day off work?  If your record is so immaculate, odds are you won't get more until after this one is out of range for higher penalties, so it may not be worth your time.

[Samstag]

2):  I was already in the intersection when the light turned red, and according to the statute I was ticketed for that means I have every legal right to continue on my way.  "14-299 (2) Yellow: Vehicular traffic facing a steady yellow signal is thereby warned that the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter, when vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the intersection unless so close to the intersection that a stop cannot be made in safety; pedestrians facing a steady yellow signal, except when directed by separate pedestrian-control signals, are thereby advised that there is insufficient time to cross the roadway before a red indication is shown and no pedestrian shall then start to cross the roadway."

You're misinterpreting the bolded section.  This applies to the yellow signal.  You are expected to immediately slow down and not enter the intersection unless it is unsafe under a yellow light.  Unless the light was malfunctioning, you were well above the speed limit, or you weren't paying attention, you ignored the yellow and so were in the middle of the intersection when it went red.

I'm not aware of any states where your logic would win in court.

[tommy]

There are times when a person is going the speed limit and just so happens to be in the "point of no return" area under the light and can be seen as breaking the law, when they really are not. The problem is so many people like to use this lie that when it really happens to a person it is laughable to cops.

[ChadTower]

I'm not aware of any states where your logic would win in court.

Confusion... delusion... and Alabama.

[Jdurg]

The court is actually within a moderate walking distance from where I work.  Also, the intersection where this occurred isn't a classic "two roads meet" intersection.  It is where the two-lane off-ramp from the highway meets Route 12 which is two lanes in each direction, and then it also intersects with Kings Highway which is one lane in each direction.  To make a full turn from Kings Highway onto Route 12 (which is what I was doing) takes 3 seconds if you are going the speed limit.  The way the traffic light functions there, it is very probably for you to be entering the intersection with your light being yellow and still be in the intersection when the other side is just turning green.

Below is the Google Map satellite view of this location.  I've labelled it to describe the event.  Where my car was when the light turned red meant that I had every right of way according to Connecticut Law to be continuing my left turn onto Route 12 North.  In addition, with this officer being a new officer I question whether he truly knows this light and that he can have a green light showing and I can still be in the intersection when his light turns green.

[MaximRecoil]

guess it depends on the state/county....

Here:

don't show up = pay full amount

show up = offered a reduction of the traffic infraction lower fine

show up and fight = reduction offer withdrawn and now risk the full amount if you lose.

Here, they generally have a line for traffic court, a few guys in suits come out look at tickets make the reduction offers and you decide to take or leave it. This all happens before you even see the judge. You are given the chance to plead guilty to a lesser offense then you go pay your fine and it's over.

also if you do take the lesser offense (if its offered) and your insurance tries to hit you hard with an increase and your record is spotless otherwise, call them up and ---smurf--- about the increase and threaten to take your business elsewhere. The insurance company may overlook the one traffic violation if it risks losing a good customer.

That's interesting. Maybe it is that way here now too. I haven't been to traffic court since the early '90s.

[Barry Barcrest]

POST REMOVED SO NOT TO ANNOY SAINT

[Samstag]

There are times when a person is going the speed limit and just so happens to be in the "point of no return" area under the light and can be seen as breaking the law, when they really are not.

Right.  I addressed those situations under "the light was malfunctioning" and "you weren't paying attention".

[ChadTower]

Hang on you got a ticket for speeding? Didn't you go mad about people speeding down your road and how much you hated it. You wife getting injured when a car slammed into her and all that crap and you are no better than those you complianed about. You say he doesn't like people driving through his block, man you are the biggest hypocrite going.

I did, yes - about people going 55 in a 30.  I was going 20mph in a nonposted 15 zone.

I would be ecstatic about people going past my house at the speed with which I was going past his house. 

Let me repeat - I was going 20mph, and the ticket was written up for 20mph.  Twenty.

[tommy]

The only time I've ever fought a ticket the cop showed up on his day off.  Turns out it was right in front of his damn house - the ticket was for 20 in a 15 on a barely used back road - and he doesn't like people driving through his little block at all.  Stupid, stupid Rhode Island.  Burned a vacation day and got the full fine and points on my license/insurance hit.

Hang on you got a ticket for speeding? Didn't you go mad about people speeding down your road and how much you hated it. You wife getting injured when a car slammed into her and all that crap and you are no better than those you complianed about. You say he doesn't like people driving through his block, man you are the biggest hypocrite going.

Your post was barely, if at all, related to the topic at hand. The purpose of your post was to call chad out in a manner that only serves to antagonize.

fixt

[tommy]

There are times when a person is going the speed limit and just so happens to be in the "point of no return" area under the light and can be seen as breaking the law, when they really are not.

Right.  I addressed those situations under "the light was malfunctioning" and "you weren't paying attention".

No, not malfunctioning and not paying attention, it does happen due to normal speed and light changes at random.

[ChadTower]

There are no random light changes.  They all happen on a specific timeframe with specific intervals between yellow and red.  Always.

[Jdurg]

There are times when a person is going the speed limit and just so happens to be in the "point of no return" area under the light and can be seen as breaking the law, when they really are not.

Right.  I addressed those situations under "the light was malfunctioning" and "you weren't paying attention".

No, not malfunctioning and not paying attention, it does happen due to normal speed and light changes at random.

If you look at the photo I posted, the Bowling Alley is the big white thing.  I made the left onto Kings Highway and the light was still green.  When I got to the Stop Line that I indicated, the light turned yellow.  When I was in the intersection, the light turned red.  Stopping is impossible at that point unless I want to stop in the middle of Route 12.

[Barry Barcrest]

Yeah tommy i went back and read that and removed my post, thanks for pointing it out. My mistake...

[RayB]

UH, the yellow lights are designed precisely to to give a driver enough time to either come to a stop or proceed through if "past the point of no return".

If you find yourself past the point of no return when the light is just turning red, you were either doing one or all of these:
A. Were going to fast.
B. Were not paying enough attention.

In either case YOU are responsible for your vehicle ending up in the intersection when the light was red. Rationalize it all you want, you're guilty of that, so take the punishment. I'm glad you got caught. It really pisses me off when I see people just pushing to get through yellows up until the last second. That's just not safe.

[Jdurg]

There are no random light changes.  They all happen on a specific timeframe with specific intervals between yellow and red.  Always.

Actually, here in New England there are plenty of lights that aren't on timers.  They are on trip sensors that sense when a car is going by a certain point.  Then, the lights will change if the sensors have been tripped by cars on certain roads.

[Jdurg]

UH, the yellow lights are designed precisely to to give a driver enough time to either come to a stop or proceed through if "past the point of no return".

If you find yourself past the point of no return when the light is just turning red, you were either doing one or all of these:
A. Were going to fast.
B. Were not paying enough attention.

In either case YOU are responsible for your vehicle ending up in the intersection when the light was red. Rationalize it all you want, you're guilty of that, so take the punishment. I'm glad you got caught. It really pisses me off when I see people just pushing to get through yellows up until the last second. That's just not safe.

Yes.  The yellow light, according to the LAW, means that the green light privileges are terminating and red light is coming up.  If you are at the point of no return (where you must legally stop your car at a red light) when the light is just turning yellow, you know that you have to continue going through.  That is what I did.  I did not break the law and I will prove it in court.  Take a look at the picture I posted and see where I was when the light turned red.  I am right.

[tommy]

There are no random light changes.  They all happen on a specific timeframe with specific intervals between yellow and red.  Always.

When you're driving down any random road you do not know when the light is going to change, there are times when you just happen to be at the wrong spot at the right time and can be seen as breaking the law. The thing is to what degree did you pass the light and did you or did you not have a chance to stop or have to keep going, this is too close to call from a cop sometimes and the cop can be wrong at times.

What if you squeal your breaks at an attempt to stop and make a big scene in the middle of the road attempting to stop when you really cannot and end up sitting in the middle of the road. Just keep driving, you will get a ticket either way.

[ChadTower]

Actually, here in New England there are plenty of lights that aren't on timers.  They are on trip sensors that sense when a car is going by a certain point.  Then, the lights will change if the sensors have been tripped by cars on certain roads.

I am in MA.  There aren't very many of those at all, and most of the ones out there in southern MA are for turning a low volume light to green when it is already red.

[Jdurg]

Actually, here in New England there are plenty of lights that aren't on timers.  They are on trip sensors that sense when a car is going by a certain point.  Then, the lights will change if the sensors have been tripped by cars on certain roads.

I am in MA.  There aren't very many of those at all, and most of the ones out there in southern MA are for turning a low volume light to green when it is already red.

I'm in SE Connecticut near Groton/New London and these lights exist everywhere in the more urban areas.

[ChadTower]

Fair enough... doesn't help this guy's case, though, since if it were tripping by his passage he would have exactly the right amount of time to either stop or make the intersection.   

[saint]

POST REMOVED SO NOT TO ANNOY SAINT

Awww.... I didn't get to use my icon....

[missioncontrol]

so let me get this straight... you were able to see the light turn red while you were under it? definitely sounds like you tried to beat the light....

[ChadTower]

so let me get this straight... you were able to see the light turn red while you were under it? definitely sounds like you tried to beat the light....

Blinded by the light
Revved up like a Deuce
Another runner in the night

[Jdurg]

so let me get this straight... you were able to see the light turn red while you were under it? definitely sounds like you tried to beat the light....

Yes, since due to the nature of the intersections there the only place they can safely put the actual traffic light is almost directly in the intersection itself.  I was past the line that denotes where the automobiles must stop.  According to Connecticut Traffic Laws, that stop line defines where the intersection begins.

[ChadTower]

Here is a better look at the left turn in question:

[tommy]

This is really why he ran the light, he was not even driving. 

[Jdurg]

Here is a better look at the left turn in question:

 

Nice.  I think this thread needed that.   

[Samstag]

Sometimes you just have to deal with the lights as they are rather than how you'd like them to be.

[Daniel270]

Here is a better look at the left turn in question:

You sure it wasn't something more like this? 

[ahofle]

The only time I've ever fought a ticket the cop showed up on his day off.  Turns out it was right in front of his damn house - the ticket was for 20 in a 15 on a barely used back road - and he doesn't like people driving through his little block at all.  Stupid, stupid Rhode Island.  Burned a vacation day and got the full fine and points on my license/insurance hit.

That cop should start driving 10MPH on his road to jam up traffic for miles and thus keep his road safer.   

[ChadTower]

That cop should start driving 10MPH on his road to jam up traffic for miles and thus keep his road safer.   

   There's barely any traffic on that street, though.  He'd be backing up big wheels and skateboards.

[Jdurg]

I just spoke with a friend of mine who just got a law degree and she said a few simple things;

1):  Don't make things up.  Honesty, even if it won't support your case, is noted.
2):  Learn the Law.  Read through the statute you are accused of violating and break it down piece by piece.  The Prosecution must prove that you violated all aspects of said statute in order for you to be found guilty.  If one aspect of that statute is something not applicable to your infraction, you are Not Guilty.
3):  Request the Police Officer's notes.  By Law, the Police Officer must provide you with all notes relating to the incident prior to the court date.  You must, however, make the official request.  Bring a copy of this official request with you to court.  If the Officer has not provided you with the notes you requested you can ask that the judge require the Officer to provide you with the notes before a certain date.  If that date comes and goes and you still have not been sent the notes, you can legally request the case be dismissed.  (Therefore, you must request the notes be sent via a trackable courier service so you can have evidence of its delivery or failure of).
4):  Keep thing short and to the point.  No "fluff" should be used to try and sway the judge.
5):  For Stoplight/Stopsign violations, bring a detailed diagram of the area in which the incident took place denoting where you were and where the cop was when the "incident" happened.  By having the officer's notes you'll be able to see what he will be stating and if he made no details as to his position and your position, your appearence with detailed diagrams will help your side of the argument.
6):  Take photos of the area at that particular time of the night.
7):  Show up wearing a suit and tie so that you will appear to show respect for the court.
:  Never look at the police officer unless he is talking to you directly.  Always face the judge.
9):  Look the judge in the eyes when responding and when listening.
10):  ALWAYS address the court as "your honor".


Those were the 10 things that she said I really have to follow to have a chance with this.  Of course, if the officer fails to show up for the trial then I win by default.  She just said that it's critical to get a copy of the officers notes.  They are required to write down every last detail of what happened that resulted in the traffic ticket.  If you get a copy of his notes and see that he did not diagram out what happened or did something which would result in his view of your car being obscured, you'll have a greater chance of success.  Even if you just request the notes of the officer, it will show that you have an intent to defend yourself to the fullest and will cause the officer to review his paperwork and notes relating to your case.  In some cases the officer will review his notes and realize that he may not win the case and will just retract the ticket prior to trial.  

So I have a bit of research to do to further back my case up, but my friend did say that I've probably got a 50/50 chance of the case being completely wiped away with a far more likely chance that the officer will suggest some other action not resulting in a ticket.

[ChadTower]

Is it really worth all that effort?  What are the penalties/insurance hit?

[shardian]

I would think that unless you are in a tiny hillbilly town in which the sole income of the town is tickets, you would only get a warning for something like this. Either the cop was on his period, or you did something to piss him off.

I've only been caught with the yellow light thing once and I had the ultimate defense with me - a pissed off pregnant wife. I ended up with a warning, an apology, AND a sympathetic nod.

[boykster]

I just don't speed, run stale yellow/ red lights, and even come to a complete stop at stop signs!  Sure, I might get to where i'm going a whole minute or two later than you do, but

Haven't had a traffic violation in over 18 years 

[patrickl]

I'd love to see someone present an "I wasn't paying enough attention to stop safely" defense.   

I was in court myself once (I got cought with my radar detector and got called to court instead of a fine) and an elderly couple ahead of me tried to pull off the "I wasn't paying attention so it wasn't my fault" defense. The guy was looking at a speedboat on the water and rear ended the car in front of him. A cop fined him for not paying attention and the guy went to court thinking the judge would be lenient on him since his wife pointed out the boat to him. Seriously bizarre.

The guy after him tried the "I thought the speed sign near road works was just an advisory speed instead of an actual speed limit" defense. Seriously! The judge really ripped that guy apart. It was hilarious. He had to pay something like 800 euro though (120km/h in a 70km/h zone and road works doubles the fine).

In both cases the judge increased the settlement they were offered by 20%. Just for wasting his time.

[Jdurg]

I would think that unless you are in a tiny hillbilly town in which the sole income of the town is tickets, you would only get a warning for something like this. Either the cop was on his period, or you did something to piss him off.

I've only been caught with the yellow light thing once and I had the ultimate defense with me - a pissed off pregnant wife. I ended up with a warning, an apology, AND a sympathetic nod.

After seeing a boatload of cop cars on the roads in the areas last night and today (all of them in tandem nonetheless), it appears as if the Police Acadamy just graduated a bunch of cadets and now they are out on the roads en masse doing on-the-street training.  I really took note of this when I saw a lot of the cops out there were VERY young, and the other officers with them were of the older variety.

So I think I got hit by a kid who just wanted to "break his cherry" so to speak.

Now for is it worth it?  Yes.  I do believe it is.  I feel 100% that I am right and I am being wronged here.  I do not believe that the "oh well, that just the way it is" philosophy should apply.  When I have been wronged I refuse to just "accept it".  I did that for a great portion of my life and came as close to suicide as you could ever imagine because I just "accepted it" when I was being harassed, screwed over, or crapped on.  If I in any way had any doubts that I was Not Guilty I'd have sucked it up, paid the fine, gotten the two points on my license and gone broke with car insurance for the next two years.  As I read through the state law regarding traffic signals, I gain more confidence in my being correct.  Here is a section pertaining to green lights;

(1) Circular green alone: Vehicular traffic facing a green signal may proceed straight through or turn right or left unless a sign or marking at such place prohibits either such turn or straight through movement, except that such traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and vehicles lawfully within a crosswalk or the intersection at the time such signal was exhibited;

Circular green alone: Vehicular traffic facing a green signal may proceed straight through or turn right or left:  This indicates that those with a Circular Green signal have the right of way and can go straight, right, or left.

unless a sign or marking at such place prohibits either such turn or straight through movement:  This indicates that their ability to go straight or turn is not allowed if there is a sign or marking stating that they can not.

except that such traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and vehicles lawfully within a crosswalk or the intersection at the time such signal was exhibited:  This means that their right of way does not apply if a car or pedestrian was already in the intersection when their green signal was given.

(2) Yellow: Vehicular traffic facing a steady yellow signal is thereby warned that the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter, when vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the intersection unless so close to the intersection that a stop cannot be made in safety; pedestrians facing a steady yellow signal, except when directed by separate pedestrian-control signals, are thereby advised that there is insufficient time to cross the roadway before a red indication is shown and no pedestrian shall then start to cross the roadway.

Yellow: Vehicular traffic facing a steady yellow signal is thereby warned that the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter:  This means that your rights and privileges relating to the Green Signal are ending.  It does not mean that they have ended.

when vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the intersection unless so close to the intersection that a stop cannot be made in safety:  This means that cars need to stop before entering the intersection unless stopping would be done unsafely.  (In my case, if I stopped it would mean that I would have to slam on my breaks, possibly losing traction with the damp pavement, and potentially causing someone coming up behind me to slam into my back end).

The red light portion simply states that if a red light is present you must stop before entering the intersection.

By fighting this, the officer has to prove that I could have stopped my car safely prior to entering the intersection, since the green light section indicates that if I am already in the intersection I retain my right of way.  So the cop will need to have measurements of where my car was when his light turned green, how fast I was going, what my light color was when I entered the intersection, etc. etc.  That's a lot that he will need to prove.  He also can't say "Well if he wasn't able to stop safely then he must have been speeding" since you can't serve a speeding infraction without any proof. 

This is the part that my friend said I need to pay close attention to because the officer will have a very tough time proving all of those points without any reasonable doubt.  By taking a look at his notes, I'll easily be able to see where he was positioned and what possible angle he could have of my approach.

It's really the green light section that I had just browsed over before that is going to help.  It clearly states that the vehicles with a green light must yield to vehicles already in the intersection at the onset of their green light. 



(This is actually kind of fun reading through the traffic laws). 

[RayB]

It's amazing how people think that "mistakes" aren't their responsibility. It doesn't matter if you intended to make the mistake or not, its still your responsibility. The purpose of getting ticketed and fined is to ensure people wake up and pay more attention so mistakes don't happen as much.

JDrug: Go to the intersection and measure the timing of the lights (same day and time). You might find it supports your argument, or you might find it does not.

[AtomSmasher]

It's really the green light section that I had just browsed over before that is going to help.  It clearly states that the vehicles with a green light must yield to vehicles already in the intersection at the onset of their green light. 

That would be helpful if another car hit you and you were arguing over the fault of the accident, but I really don't see how that would help you out of your ticket.

Good luck with your case, but I agree with several others here in that it will come down to your word against the cops.

[knave]

Just a note for your benefit.  Don't confuse the traffic hearing with going to trial (court).

After you get the official ticket in the mail you will have to go before a judge for a hearing. This is where you declare you are not guilty and want to go to trial( or fight the ticket so to speak). This is also where you ask for probation, traffic school or any reduced fines.  I have never seen a judge refuse to reduce a fine on anyone who says they can't pay who also has a pretty average record. (your results may vary.)

If you choose to go to trial then usually the judge won't issue traffic school, probation or reduced fines...But I believe they still can even if they are "not supposed to."

Court is full of exceptions...

All of that advice from the lawyer is good. but I prefer to never go to trial and resolve the ticket at the hearing. probation rocks big time!

[saint]

It's amazing how people think that "mistakes" aren't their responsibility. It doesn't matter if you intended to make the mistake or not, its still your responsibility. The purpose of getting ticketed and fined is to ensure people wake up and pay more attention so mistakes don't happen as much.

JDrug: Go to the intersection and measure the timing of the lights. You might find it supports your argument, or you might find it does not.

Make sure you measure it at the same time of day (maybe same day of the week even) as sometimes timing is changed depending on time of day.

[billf]

I'd love to see someone present an "I wasn't paying enough attention to stop safely" defense.   

I was in court myself once (I got cought with my radar detector and got called to court instead of a fine) and an elderly couple ahead of me tried to pull off the "I wasn't paying attention so it wasn't my fault" defense. The guy was looking at a speedboat on the water and rear ended the car in front of him. A cop fined him for not paying attention and the guy went to court thinking the judge would be lenient on him since his wife pointed out the boat to him. Seriously bizarre.

The guy after him tried the "I thought the speed sign near road works was just an advisory speed instead of an actual speed limit" defense. Seriously! The judge really ripped that guy apart. It was hilarious. He had to pay something like 800 euro though (120km/h in a 70km/h zone and road works doubles the fine).

In both cases the judge increased the settlement they were offered by 20%. Just for wasting his time.

Can totally relate to this.  When I was home from college my sophmore year, I got my first speeding ticket.  I had all intentions of fighting the ticket - officer claimed I was going 46 in 25.  I don't think I was actually going that fast, but I asked to see the radar.  He walked me over to the cop car and showed me a flashing 46 on the radar.  But there were other cars going in the opposite direction at the same time that he "caught" me, so to this day I don't really know who's 46mph speed that was on the radar. Anyway, I was going to go and fight the ticket.  I didn't go to extent the jdurg is planning to go, but I had a few points that I was going to bring up.

Then, like patrickl mentioned, the judge was having none of the excuses or explanations the day I was there.  A couple of cases before mine, was a guy who was pulled over for speeding on the highway (maybe 76 in a 55). He claimed that the car mechanically couldn't go over 50mph. The judge looked at him and asked, "are you seriously trying to tell me a car with a V8 engine can't go more than 50mph?" He responded with a "yes".  The judge told him, well then your car isn't safe to be on the highway and should be repaired immediately.  Part of the judgment was to get the car fixed and then the judge doubled the fine for taking up the court's time.

The judge then rung up the two individuals directly in front of me in the case list, for the full amount of their tickets.  It was then I decided to plead no contest, went downstairs, paid my fine and got my license back.  And yes the officer in my case did show up to court.

[Ed_McCarron]

I'd love to see someone present an "I wasn't paying enough attention to stop safely" defense.   

Heres the winner, if the cop doesn't have video.

"Before I prepared to stop, I checked my rear view mirror.  I felt the vehicle behind me was too close for me to safely stop, and since the light was yellow I took the less dangerous option."

Odds are even if the cop was watching you, he wasn't looking behind you.

[danny_galaga]

havent read the whole thing yet. but tell me, where are you living? in australia we have this colour between the green and the red called 'amber'. you went through a red light dude. cop it sweet...

[danny_galaga]

There are times when a person is going the speed limit and just so happens to be in the "point of no return" area under the light and can be seen as breaking the law, when they really are not.

Right.  I addressed those situations under "the light was malfunctioning" and "you weren't paying attention".

No, not malfunctioning and not paying attention, it does happen due to normal speed and light changes at random.

If you look at the photo I posted, the Bowling Alley is the big white thing.  I made the left onto Kings Highway and the light was still green.  When I got to the Stop Line that I indicated, the light turned yellow.  When I was in the intersection, the light turned red.  Stopping is impossible at that point unless I want to stop in the middle of Route 12.

i cant see the grassy knowl 

[danny_galaga]

I just spoke with a friend of mine who just got a law degree and she said a few simple things;

1):  Don't make things up.  Honesty, even if it won't support your case, is noted.
2):  Learn the Law.  Read through the statute you are accused of violating and break it down piece by piece.  The Prosecution must prove that you violated all aspects of said statute in order for you to be found guilty.  If one aspect of that statute is something not applicable to your infraction, you are Not Guilty.
3):  Request the Police Officer's notes.  By Law, the Police Officer must provide you with all notes relating to the incident prior to the court date.  You must, however, make the official request.  Bring a copy of this official request with you to court.  If the Officer has not provided you with the notes you requested you can ask that the judge require the Officer to provide you with the notes before a certain date.  If that date comes and goes and you still have not been sent the notes, you can legally request the case be dismissed.  (Therefore, you must request the notes be sent via a trackable courier service so you can have evidence of its delivery or failure of).
4):  Keep thing short and to the point.  No "fluff" should be used to try and sway the judge.
5):  For Stoplight/Stopsign violations, bring a detailed diagram of the area in which the incident took place denoting where you were and where the cop was when the "incident" happened.  By having the officer's notes you'll be able to see what he will be stating and if he made no details as to his position and your position, your appearence with detailed diagrams will help your side of the argument.
6):  Take photos of the area at that particular time of the night.
7):  Show up wearing a suit and tie so that you will appear to show respect for the court.
:  Never look at the police officer unless he is talking to you directly.  Always face the judge.
9):  Look the judge in the eyes when responding and when listening.
10):  ALWAYS address the court as "your honor".


Those were the 10 things that she said I really have to follow to have a chance with this.  Of course, if the officer fails to show up for the trial then I win by default.  She just said that it's critical to get a copy of the officers notes.  They are required to write down every last detail of what happened that resulted in the traffic ticket.  If you get a copy of his notes and see that he did not diagram out what happened or did something which would result in his view of your car being obscured, you'll have a greater chance of success.  Even if you just request the notes of the officer, it will show that you have an intent to defend yourself to the fullest and will cause the officer to review his paperwork and notes relating to your case.  In some cases the officer will review his notes and realize that he may not win the case and will just retract the ticket prior to trial. 

So I have a bit of research to do to further back my case up, but my friend did say that I've probably got a 50/50 chance of the case being completely wiped away with a far more likely chance that the officer will suggest some other action not resulting in a ticket.

you facing a murder charge as well 

[Kremmit]

Hey, no joke about checking the yellow light timing.  In recent years, a lot of municipalities have taken to shortening the duration of the yellow with the specific intent of increasing red light violations, and therefore revenue derived from tickets.  This is especially common in intersections with red light cameras, which is not what you're up against, but still. 

Get a stopwatch and measure the duration of the yellow.  Then measure how long it takes to get through the intersection, assuming you approach the intersection going the speed limit, and then slow down to a safe & reasonable speed to make the turn you were making.  If the yellow isn't giving you enough time from the point of no return to your exit from the intersection, then prove it to the judge- mathematically, and/or with a videotape.  (Don't videotape yourself speeding, though, unless you want another ticket 

Of course, this won't work if the yellow really is long enough... but it sounds like the cornerstone of your defense strategy is that it's not.. so prove it.

----

*edit- I wouldn't suggest that you accuse the city of shortening the yellow in order to make money, I wouldn't even imply it.  The yellow's just not long enough, and that's that.  Don't rub the judge's nose in the idea that the city he works for might not be 100% squeaky clean, that would make it harder for him to side with you.

[patrickl]

Get a stopwatch and measure the duration of the yellow.  Then measure how long it takes to get through the intersection, assuming you approach the intersection going the speed limit, and then slow down to a safe & reasonable speed to make the turn you were making.  If the yellow isn't giving you enough time from the point of no return to your exit from the intersection, then prove it to the judge- mathematically, and/or with a videotape.  (Don't videotape yourself speeding, though, unless you want another ticket 

That would work if he claimed that he was crossing the light just as it turned yellow. His claim is that he passed the light just as it went from yellow to red as stated in his first post:

I was passing through an intersection when the light turned red as my car was directly underneath it.  Thus, my front half of the car was inside the intersection and the back two wheels were behind the "line".

JDurg, I'm surprised how you misread the traffic light code.

Yellow: Vehicular traffic facing a steady yellow signal is thereby warned that the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter, when vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the intersection unless so close to the intersection that a stop cannot be made in safety

You passed the trafficlight when the entire yellow period was over. Thus you were not close to the intersection when the yellow light came on that you could not stop. That would be when you are under green and the light just changes in front of you.

Basically you have to stop for a yellow light unless you really cannot stop safely. You ran through a yellow just going red and that's not allowed. So you get a fine. Pretty simple.

[ChadTower]

Heres the winner, if the cop doesn't have video.

"Before I prepared to stop, I checked my rear view mirror.  I felt the vehicle behind me was too close for me to safely stop, and since the light was yellow I took the less dangerous option."

Odds are even if the cop was watching you, he wasn't looking behind you.

I'd be surprised if a judge didn't say "getting rearended is safer than a head on collision in the middle of a busy intersection.  It is not up to you to alter traffic laws to suit your opinion - they were written with that situation in mind.  I will now double your fine to amuse my bailiff.  He is having a bad day."

[Jdurg]

Get a stopwatch and measure the duration of the yellow.  Then measure how long it takes to get through the intersection, assuming you approach the intersection going the speed limit, and then slow down to a safe & reasonable speed to make the turn you were making.  If the yellow isn't giving you enough time from the point of no return to your exit from the intersection, then prove it to the judge- mathematically, and/or with a videotape.  (Don't videotape yourself speeding, though, unless you want another ticket 

That would work if he claimed that he was crossing the light just as it turned yellow. His claim is that he passed the light just as it went from yellow to red as stated in his first post:

I was passing through an intersection when the light turned red as my car was directly underneath it.  Thus, my front half of the car was inside the intersection and the back two wheels were behind the "line".

JDurg, I'm surprised how you misread the traffic light code.

Yellow: Vehicular traffic facing a steady yellow signal is thereby warned that the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter, when vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the intersection unless so close to the intersection that a stop cannot be made in safety

You passed the trafficlight when the entire yellow period was over. Thus you were not close to the intersection when the yellow light came on that you could not stop. That would be when you are under green and the light just changes in front of you.

Basically you have to stop for a yellow light unless you really cannot stop safely. You ran through a yellow just going red and that's not allowed. So you get a fine. Pretty simple.

What you guys aren't understanding is the traffic light itself is located in the intersection.  Here in the state of CT, the intersection is defined as the area where two or more roads meet and the intersection itself is the space beyond the white stop line which is present on each road.  At EVERY stop light and stop sign there is a white line in the pavement.  It is required by LAW to be there.  You MUST stop before this white line.  If you progress pass this white line, by the law of the land you are IN THE INTERSECTION.

At this intersection that I am being ticketed for, the white line that denotes the start of the intersection is about ten yards BEFORE the traffic light.  They can't errect a pole in the middle of Route 1 for the traffic light.  So the light that is applicable to the road I was travelling on is located in the middle of the divider that separates northbound and southbound.  I was past the line and should have typed "light" in my initial post.  Sorry about that. 

But this isn't a case where the traffic light is directly above where the stop line is placed.  At this intersection they can't physically place it there.

[patrickl]

So you are saying you were driving along the intersection for a "long time" already before the light turned red and that in fact you were crossing the line just after the light went yellow?

BTW funny how the color is different. Americans call it yellow, us dutch folk call it orange and the australians call it amber.

[missioncontrol]

BTW funny how the color is different. Americans call it yellow, us dutch folk call it orange and the australians call it amber.

yeah and in Japan they call a green light blue

[shardian]

I think you should cite that scene in Beverly Hills Cop II about the yellow light in your defense. 

[ChadTower]

It always makes me laugh when someone I know goes up to NS and one of the first things they say is "WTF is a blinking green?!  I don't know what to do!"

 

[ahofle]

Where is NS?
I saw those blinking green lights for the first time in Mexico and have wondered why we don't have them here ever since (although I guess your quote answers that questions LOL).  I sometimes use the adjacent crosswalk light as an indication of a stale green light.  Many of the ones around here actually have a countdown on them to make it even more obvious that you need to slow down well ahead of it changing to amber.

[ChadTower]

Nova Scotia.

[shardian]

There is a highway across the river in Ohio that has stop lights here and there. They installed clever lights a ways back from the stop light that basically says "if this light is blinking, go ahead and prep to stop at the light ahead.

[ChadTower]

Way back in drivers' ed the teacher told us that if you're 300 yards from a green light, and you're not on a 50mph road, you're not going to make the green.  Be ready to stop.  I still find that to be pretty consistently true.

[danny_galaga]

What you guys aren't understanding is the traffic light itself is located in the intersection.  Here in the state of CT, the intersection is defined as the area where two or more roads meet and the intersection itself is the space beyond the white stop line which is present on each road.  At EVERY stop light and stop sign there is a white line in the pavement.  It is required by LAW to be there.  You MUST stop before this white line.  If you progress pass this white line, by the law of the land you are IN THE INTERSECTION.

At this intersection that I am being ticketed for, the white line that denotes the start of the intersection is about ten yards BEFORE the traffic light.  They can't errect a pole in the middle of Route 1 for the traffic light.  So the light that is applicable to the road I was travelling on is located in the middle of the divider that separates northbound and southbound.  I was past the line and should have typed "light" in my initial post.  Sorry about that. 

But this isn't a case where the traffic light is directly above where the stop line is placed.  At this intersection they can't physically place it there.

i've tried, how i've tried to interpret this in any other way:

Okay, last night I got screwed by an overzealous police officer.  I was passing through an intersection when the light turned red as my car was directly underneath it.

but i just can't seem to read it in any other way than - YOU RAN A RED LIGHT
go on. when you go to court, tell the judge or magistrate or whatever exactly what you've said here. as soon as you've finished that sentence they will say 'thank you for the confession, here's your fine'...

[billf]

What you guys aren't understanding is the traffic light itself is located in the intersection.  Here in the state of CT, the intersection is defined as the area where two or more roads meet and the intersection itself is the space beyond the white stop line which is present on each road.  At EVERY stop light and stop sign there is a white line in the pavement.  It is required by LAW to be there.  You MUST stop before this white line.  If you progress pass this white line, by the law of the land you are IN THE INTERSECTION.

At this intersection that I am being ticketed for, the white line that denotes the start of the intersection is about ten yards BEFORE the traffic light.  They can't errect a pole in the middle of Route 1 for the traffic light.  So the light that is applicable to the road I was travelling on is located in the middle of the divider that separates northbound and southbound.  I was past the line and should have typed "light" in my initial post.  Sorry about that. 

But this isn't a case where the traffic light is directly above where the stop line is placed.  At this intersection they can't physically place it there.

i've tried, how i've tried to interpret this in any other way:

Okay, last night I got screwed by an overzealous police officer.  I was passing through an intersection when the light turned red as my car was directly underneath it.

but i just can't seem to read it in any other way than - YOU RAN A RED LIGHT
go on. when you go to court, tell the judge or magistrate or whatever exactly what you've said here. as soon as you've finished that sentence they will say 'thank you for the confession, here's your fine'...

His claim is he was already in the intersection when the light turned red.  Do you suggest he come to a complete stop in the intersection, thus causing an unsafe situation?  Not sure how it works in Aussieland, but in the U.S. if you are in the intersection when the light turns red, you can safely and cautiously proceed through it so you don't cause a worse situation.  This is also the reason for the "all red" status of traffic signals at intersections.  A typical all "red status" is 2 to 3 seconds which allows for the intersection to clear of cars.

[patrickl]

His claim is he was already in the intersection when the light turned red.  Do you suggest he come to a complete stop in the intersection, thus causing an unsafe situation?

The question is if he could have stopped on yellow before he entered the intersection. His description of the event tells me he must have had ample time to stop before the intersection. Or indeed the yellow period must have been so incredibly short that you cannot make it across the intersection during this period.

[danny_galaga]

What you guys aren't understanding is the traffic light itself is located in the intersection.  Here in the state of CT, the intersection is defined as the area where two or more roads meet and the intersection itself is the space beyond the white stop line which is present on each road.  At EVERY stop light and stop sign there is a white line in the pavement.  It is required by LAW to be there.  You MUST stop before this white line.  If you progress pass this white line, by the law of the land you are IN THE INTERSECTION.

At this intersection that I am being ticketed for, the white line that denotes the start of the intersection is about ten yards BEFORE the traffic light.  They can't errect a pole in the middle of Route 1 for the traffic light.  So the light that is applicable to the road I was travelling on is located in the middle of the divider that separates northbound and southbound.  I was past the line and should have typed "light" in my initial post.  Sorry about that. 

But this isn't a case where the traffic light is directly above where the stop line is placed.  At this intersection they can't physically place it there.

i've tried, how i've tried to interpret this in any other way:

Okay, last night I got screwed by an overzealous police officer.  I was passing through an intersection when the light turned red as my car was directly underneath it.

but i just can't seem to read it in any other way than - YOU RAN A RED LIGHT
go on. when you go to court, tell the judge or magistrate or whatever exactly what you've said here. as soon as you've finished that sentence they will say 'thank you for the confession, here's your fine'...

His claim is he was already in the intersection when the light turned red.  Do you suggest he come to a complete stop in the intersection, thus causing an unsafe situation?  Not sure how it works in Aussieland, but in the U.S. if you are in the intersection when the light turns red, you can safely and cautiously proceed through it so you don't cause a worse situation.  This is also the reason for the "all red" status of traffic signals at intersections.  A typical all "red status" is 2 to 3 seconds which allows for the intersection to clear of cars.

my bad. in aussieland, many intersections have two sets of lights. one set right on each opposing stop line. i was picturing him passing the closest set when it turned red, which would mean he was passing over the stop line when it did. now i think about it, you mercans tend to have huge intersections with one set of lights just hanging in the middle. i remember the first time i noticed it was because i subconsciously gauged the distance via the stop lights and nearly ended up stopping IN the intersection (lights are that much further away) i see what you mean now. just like jdurg typed in the post i sarcastically quoted 

[AcidArmitage]

this ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- happened to me 30 minutes ago and it pissed me off so much i wanna take it to court, too... 

[shardian]

my bad. in aussieland, many intersections have two sets of lights. one set right on each opposing stop line. i was picturing him passing the closest set when it turned red, which would mean he was passing over the stop line when it did. now i think about it, you mercans tend to have huge intersections with one set of lights just hanging in the middle. i remember the first time i noticed it was because i subconsciously gauged the distance via the stop lights and nearly ended up stopping IN the intersection (lights are that much further away) i see what you mean now. just like jdurg typed in the post i sarcastically quoted 

My one and only wreck was at an intersection in which the light was on the other side of the intersection, about 50 feet from the stop point. I slammed a  car coming off of the interstate exit. I realized what I did, apologized to the elderly couple, told the cop straight up it was red. No bitching, no arguing about the placement or anything. The cop commended my honesty and decided not to cite me for anything, the other driver never sued me for anything, and my insurance company decided not to penalize me. I was a lucky sumbitch that day...except for I've had non-stop irritating back pain since then of course.

[billf]

[I was a lucky sumbitch that day...except for I've had non-stop irritating back pain since then of course.

Sue those elderly people for all they got - they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and got in your way.  Joking of course!   

[ChadTower]

except for I've had non-stop irritating back pain since then of course.

Ever have the specific cause determined?  MRI/Xrays?  I have two herniated discs - it can be a ---smurfette---, especially if I get to a certain weight.

[shardian]

except for I've had non-stop irritating back pain since then of course.

Ever have the specific cause determined?  MRI/Xrays?  I have two herniated discs - it can be a ---smurf---, especially if I get to a certain weight.

Eh, I've always had a curvature in between my shoulder blades, and minor spina-bifida (I basically have a 6th lumbar vertebrae - not the debilitating kind thank goodness). After the wreck, I had x-rays redone and the curvature in my spine had actually changed to the other side. I've had irritation and pain there every since. Chiropractor said there isn't much to do about it.

[ChadTower]

Eh, I've always had a curvature in between my shoulder blades, and minor spina-bifida (I basically have a 6th lumbar vertebrae - not the debilitating kind thank goodness). After the wreck, I had x-rays redone and the curvature in my spine had actually changed to the other side. I've had irritation and pain there every since. Chiropractor said there isn't much to do about it.

Ow.  When even the chiropractor says you can't change it, you know it's true... I'm all for quality chiropractic care, but some guys aren't 100% ethical, and will adjust anything that walks as many time as they can get the customer to pay.

[shardian]

Eh, I've always had a curvature in between my shoulder blades, and minor spina-bifida (I basically have a 6th lumbar vertebrae - not the debilitating kind thank goodness). After the wreck, I had x-rays redone and the curvature in my spine had actually changed to the other side. I've had irritation and pain there every since. Chiropractor said there isn't much to do about it.

Ow.  When even the chiropractor says you can't change it, you know it's true... I'm all for quality chiropractic care, but some guys aren't 100% ethical, and will adjust anything that walks as many time as they can get the customer to pay.

Well, my wife's Dad, and two of her Uncles are Chiropractors. We are also close friends with our local Chiropractors. We used to babysit for both of them regularly. Neither of them accepted any money for any of my Chiropractor care after the accident. Man, I miss those tri-weekly adjustments AND massages. ... 

But yes, long term I'm just stuck with it.

[ChadTower]

Well, my wife's Dad, and two of her Uncles are Chiropractors.

Man, I miss those tri-weekly adjustments AND massages. ... 

saint's note. Bad language. Bad bad bad language. Need to add warnings to this stuff! Bad Chad, bad Chad!


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii49pLl5P5c[/youtube]


One of the greatest songs ever written.   

[shardian]

I had to turn on my speakers just to see if you really posted an unedited version. You dirty, dirty boy you!

[ChadTower]

It wouldn't be nearly as funny edited.   

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Well, I just got out of my New England court this morning, fighting almost this exact same ticket...and I WON! 
No insurance increase for me.

As it turned out, I had a 10:15am appt, got there at 9:30 and preceded to wait until 11:30am. And it wasn't one of those deals where you get to go off into a side room to make a deal with some representative of the court. I had to walk into a court-room and speak before a Magistrate and make a case.

I was going to initially plead "guilty with explanation" and request a reduced fine (or no points), but the way they presented the case to me, they just flat-out asked me defend myself against the citation.

I about freaked, but thank goodness I've got some negotiating skills. My dad always wanted me to be a lawyer. 

[AcidArmitage]

lucky ---smurfette---

[Jdurg]

Well, I just got out of my New England court this morning, fighting almost this exact same ticket...and I WON! 
No insurance increase for me.

As it turned out, I had a 10:15am appt, got there at 9:30 and preceded to wait until 11:30am. And it wasn't one of those deals where you get to go off into a side room to make a deal with some representative of the court. I had to walk into a court-room and speak before a Magistrate and make a case.

I was going to initially plead "guilty with explanation" and request a reduced fine (or no points), but the way they presented the case to me, they just flat-out asked me defend myself against the citation.

I about freaked, but thank goodness I've got some negotiating skills. My dad always wanted me to be a lawyer. 

Congrats!  I'm still awaiting a response from the court regarding my Not Guilty plea.  Doesn't bother me if it takes this long.  In the meantime, I've found out from many people that the particular officer who pulled this on me isn't well liked by his peers or the general public.  In addition, he's not "new to the force" like I thought he was.  He apparently came aboard last year and has been a royal PITA to many people.  (One of my poker buddy's Brother-In-Law works on the force in the same town). 

The thing I may have going for me is that this cop rarely shows up to court and just expects people to plead guilty and pay the fines.  So I may luck out here.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I don't think the cop showing up or not matters in my area, since there were no police officers in the court-room and certainly no officer in my hearing, and the Magistrate didn't seem bothered by it at all.

[shardian]

I don't think the cop showing up or not matters in my area, since there were no police officers in the court-room and certainly no officer in my hearing, and the Magistrate didn't seem bothered by it at all.

I've never understood this "if the cop doesn't show up you get off" thing. I would surely hope that cops wouldn't have to spend a bulk of their time showing up to traffic court for every single ticket they write. That is just crazy.

[Jdurg]

I don't think the cop showing up or not matters in my area, since there were no police officers in the court-room and certainly no officer in my hearing, and the Magistrate didn't seem bothered by it at all.

I've never understood this "if the cop doesn't show up you get off" thing. I would surely hope that cops wouldn't have to spend a bulk of their time showing up to traffic court for every single ticket they write. That is just crazy.

The basis of it is that if you show up and the cop doesn't, whatever you state under oath becomes the only evidence in the case and you can refute anything and everything the cop has in his "notes" and it will become valid evidence.  As a result, most courts don't want to waste the time of actually having to hold the trial if the officer doesn't show up so they just rule in favor of the defendant to save themselves time.

[SithMaster]

Just dont insult the judge it may negatively impact your case.

[shardian]

The basis of it is that if you show up and the cop doesn't, whatever you state under oath becomes the only evidence in the case and you can refute anything and everything the cop has in his "notes" and it will become valid evidence.  As a result, most courts don't want to waste the time of actually having to hold the trial if the officer doesn't show up so they just rule in favor of the defendant to save themselves time.

I still don't buy this. A cop's notes and observations are legal evidence. They don't need to be there to make their statement "official". A judge would more often than not take ANY report of an officer of the law as fact before any "opinion" of an offender saying whatever they have to in order to get out of a $100 fine.

Judges wishing to save time, push you out the door - I buy that. They can make up their mind pretty quick if you are there just to weasel out, or if you legitimately feel you didn't deserve a ticket.

[ahofle]

They don't have to show up to arraignments (the initial court proceeding where 99% of cases are closed).  They only have to show up if you plead not guilty and schedule a trial by jury or trial by court.  They are basically the only prosecution witness.  You couldn't have a murder trial for example using only some notes from some guy who saw the thing.

[ChadTower]

You couldn't have a murder trial for example using only some notes from some guy who saw the thing.

Yeah, eff written depositions.   

[ahofle]

You still have to show up to court if you give a written deposition the vast majority of the time.  Also, officer notes on the back of your traffic summons hardly counts as a written deposition (would the defense attorney question the piece of paper at the trial?), so that would make the process even more lengthy and expensive than having the cop show up for 15 minutes at the trial.

[shmokes]

Sixth Amendment:

    * Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and other rights of the accused.

    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.   (Emphasis added)

I believe this is why cases are typically dismissed if the cop does not show up to trial. 

[ChadTower]

    In all criminal prosecutions,

Isn't traffic court civil?

EDIT:  looked it up, apparently not.  Doh.

EDIT2:  or maybe it is.  Some states seem to vary based on the violation.

[Jdurg]

Well, as the updated post title states and the updated initial post details, I WON!!!  The court dismissed the case and I don't have to pay one cent.  This was the first time I used our country's judicial system an I am so happy that it worked in my favor.   

[ahofle]

What happened?  Details please!!!

[Jdurg]

Well I updated the first post with the details, but I'll explain them here as well.   

A few weeks ago, I got a letter for the Centralized Infraction Bureau stating that my case was transferred to the local Superior Court in Norwich.  I would hear from the court regarding my court date.  Well, time went on and I didn't hear anything from the court.  I got home from work today and there was a letter in my mailbox from the State Superior Court's Clerk's Office.  I figured this would be my official court date.

I opened the letter and just quickly glanced through and saw a bunch of full capital letters and a date of 03/03/2008.  Initially, I thought "Oh crap!  I missed the court date because the letter in the mail was lost!"  I then further read the letter and saw that the Prosecutor filed a Nolle Prosequi which means that they do not want to prosecute at this time.  What's nice is that here in CT, if they file a Nolle Prosequi it means that the charges are dropped.  Basically, the State decided to cancel the ticket before it even got to trial.  Apparently the letter I wrote explaining why I felt I was innocent was accepted and the State felt that it would be a waste of their time to prosecute me.  The charges have been officially dropped and I basically won my fight.

The filing of the Nolle Prosequi doesn't mean that I won the case or that the State lost.  It just means that they decided not to bother with it and treat it as though it never happened.   

[danny_galaga]

i hereby announce that i am a monkeys uncle!

[protokatie]

I walk to work...

And I only have a car when I cant walk to work. I buy 300 dollar junkers I keep for a year until they are more worth as scrap metal than as a car. I think in the 12 years I have had my licence, I havent paid more than 2500 dollars for all of my cars (plus maintenance, but not including gas (of course)). That is, I have spent 2500 bucks in all of my driving years for a car, so dont wonder why I think it odd someone would buy a car for 30 thousand...

[kkingsto]

Just watch out for these ticket writers in Manhattan!!   Apparently they ticketed a car for parking 1 MINUTE past the no parking time limit.  Got down the make (Honda) and somehow got MY plate, and said it was a Grey 2 door sedan.     Never saw a ticket.   The vehicle I have with that plate is a BLUE minivan and it was down in Alabama at the time of the incident.

So sometime in early February, I get this letter from the City of New York thanking me for sending in my ticket.  And when I read that, I'm like "WHAT TICKET?!?!"  Found a copy of the ticket online and saw the inaccuracies of it (as mentioned above).

So, after consulting a lawyer friend, we sent a copy of the registration and an explaination that 1) the car did NOT match the description and 2) the vehicle was no where near NYC at the time (It was in my in-laws garage!).

Couple days ago, I get a letter from the city and it says the ticket has been dismissed due to the fact the registration expiration date couldn't be read due to the rain.  WTF!    No mention of the letter I sent.

[Dartful Dodger]

 I got pulled over a week ago for speeding on a way to a job interview.  50 in a 35.  When I stopped my car I was parked in front of a 45mph sign. The officer explained that it was 35 at the hill where he caught me.

He said he was going to take my license for bond.  After a few minutes he came back to my car and said my plate was expired and he wasn't going to give me a ticket for that but he would need my signature for bond because I would need my license to get the new plate sticker.

At the DMV I gave them my license to read the address and that’s when they told me my license had expired over two months ago.  Since I was there I got a new license too.

I was telling a friend about the whole thing and he thinks the officer was either at the end of his shift and didn’t want to deal with it, or he just didn’t want to arrest the guy on his way to a job interview.  There’s no way he would have missed my license being expired.   I don't think you need your license to get a plate sticker and when I got the new one, the whole design of the license was redone.   Plus I think it’s got to come up on the computer. 

Either way I don't feel as bad about the ticket now.