Re: <News> - Tron Joystick Handles!

[CheffoJeffo]

If you can locate a used stick it will be much cheaper than that.  These sticks are ---smurfing--- tanks so you're not going to find a broken one.  They aren't made by Nintendo.

 

* CheffoJeffo  waits for MaximRecoil to notice CT's comment ... pops some popcorn and pours a draft from the tap

My Tron stick cost me about $25 and the handle cost me about $55 (and included a CP and two-way stick). It takes some time, but the stuff is out there.

[MaximRecoil]

* CheffoJeffo  waits for MaximRecoil to notice CT's comment ... pops some popcorn and pours a draft from the tap

Chad's "broken Nintendo joystick" "jokes" are even cornier than the rest of you folks's, because he only recently jumped on the bandwagon - link

Oh, and I've changed my mind about Chad never jumping on the bandwagon (as mentioned earlier in that thread), lol.

[brandon]

* CheffoJeffo  waits for MaximRecoil to notice CT's comment ... pops some popcorn and pours a draft from the tap

Chad's "broken Nintendo joystick" "jokes" are even cornier than the rest of you folks's, because he only recently jumped on the bandwagon - link

Oh, and I've changed my mind about Chad never jumping on the bandwagon (as mentioned earlier in that thread), lol.

damn.. I really hate I missed out on the whole "is it broken" debate...

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement....Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true."

[ChadTower]

I wasn't even aware of who that would tick off - I barely skimmed the original argument.  I just thought it was funny.

I still think it is funny.

[brandon]

I wasn't even aware of who that would tick off - I barely skimmed the original argument.  I just thought it was funny.

I still think it is funny.

yeah.. it is pretty funny!  what's also funny is that several "purist" restoring Donkey Kong cabinets went with Sanwa sticks instead...that should tell you something..  well, at least those are made in Japan

[MaximRecoil]

yeah.. it is pretty funny!  what's also funny is that several "purist" restoring Donkey Kong cabinets went with Sanwa sticks instead...that should tell you something..  well, at least those are made in Japan

That's a contradiction of terms. In other words, if you use 3rd party parts when "restoring" a machine, particularly when OEM parts are readily available, you are not a "purist" by default. And technically this is not "restoring", it is "refurbishing".

I think the joystick with the best feel is a Happ Competition like I have on my SFII machine, but I wouldn't put one on a Nintendo machine, even if they were available in a restricted 4-way version.

I don't care for rubber grommet-based leaf spring joysticks like the Wico, but if I had a machine that originally came with them, that is what I would use.

The all-black joysticks that came on Karate Champ machines were downright awful, but a Karate Champ isn't right IMO without them.

But then, this isn't a restoration oriented site anyway. It is a "BYO" site...

The argument was never about "feel" anyway (except to people who were confused about what the argument was about). It was about how the word "broken" is actually used. People were claiming that a joystick with a broken microswitch was a "broken joystick", which is like claiming that a guitar with a broken string is a "broken guitar".

There is really nothing, aside from the microswitches and the spring, on a Nintendo joystick that can break from gameplay usage. The steel shaft obviously is not going to snap in two. The steel base obviously is not going to crumple. The 3/8" steel bearing is not going to erode away to nothing, or be torn loose from its integrated-into-the-base socket/race.

And the component that started the argument in the first place—the relatively thick steel restrictor plate—is not going to wear out...ever (unlike the restrictor on a 4-way Wico which can/will round out, creating an intermittent 8-way in the process).

[ChadTower]

It's like a little boy saying that he broke his wookie after falling down - really, all he did was bend it.

[shardian]

MEDIC!!! WE NEED A THREAD MEDIC OVER HERE!!!!

[ChadTower]

Just toss the whole diorama into the fireplace.

[bfauska]

If you can locate a used stick it will be much cheaper than that.  These sticks are ---smurfing--- tanks so you're not going to find a broken one.  They aren't made by Nintendo.

 

* CheffoJeffo  waits for MaximRecoil to notice CT's comment ... pops some popcorn and pours a draft from the tap

My Tron stick cost me about $25 and the handle cost me about $55 (and included a CP and two-way stick). It takes some time, but the stuff is out there.

I don't know why I'm contributing to the derail of this thread, but... WOW Cheffo, over the past several months since the "debate"  I've seen many jabs about the joysticks, and the only time I see somebody joke that it's going to flair back up is now, and you were right.  Any ideas about some up coming lotto numbers you'd be willing to share?

[saint]

Trolling in this thread split. Non-trolling in the other thread split.

[ChadTower]

Abortions for some, miniature american flags for others!

[shardian]

Trolling in this thread split. Non-trolling in the other thread split.

Did this post give anyone else a headache? Sounds like caveman talk.

[CheffoJeffo]

WOW Cheffo, over the past several months since the "debate"  I've seen many jabs about the joysticks, and the only time I see somebody joke that it's going to flair back up is now, and you were right.  Any ideas about some up coming lotto numbers you'd be willing to share?

Pshaw ... it was nothing ... I knew Maxim was hanging around and he'll bite at that bit of bait every single time (he's even more predictable than genesim and a discussion of LCD vs CRT or MK vs SF).

As for lottery numbers ... 1,2,3,8,9,13 ... they haven't worked for me, but YMMV.

EDIT: How did I get the distinction of heading the troll thread ? It was CT's jab, not mine (although I did appreciate it).

[brandon]

 People were claiming that a joystick with a broken microswitch was a "broken joystick", which is like claiming that a guitar with a broken string is a "broken guitar".

well.. that's not a very good analogy though..  I change my strings at least every two weeks at a cost that's less than 1% of the total value of the guitar.   Its not economical to repair a Nintendo joystick that's totally shot and the parts cost more than a newer, more durable balltop stick like a Sanwa.   Besides, after all the trouble of sourcing parts and disassembling and reassembling the thing you still just have a ---smurfy--- Nintendo joystick    Maybe they were designed to be used by arthritic old ladies or something...

but at any rate.. how do you define broken?  by your definition not many things are truely broken.  What if a guitar had a broken neck?  this actually happens commonly enough.  It happened to me.  The guitar actually still held string tension and was playable.  was it broken? it was functional..  what would have to happen to it before it was considered broken?  Every part is available.. if nothing was left but a a few tuner pegs you could still buy the parts to "fix" it.


It reminds me of a story my dad told about how he used to repair servo motors for CNC equipment.  THe guy sent in an empty case and said he need his servo fixed...  Dad told him that there was nothing there and the parts to basically build one from scratch would cost about three time what a new unit cost.  The guy agree to pay it anyway.. Why?  because the company only had money in the budget for repairs not for purchasing new units.    wish I had that kind of money to waste...

[CheffoJeffo]

* CheffoJeffo  waits for MaximRecoil to notice brandon's comment ... pops some popcorn and pours a draft from the tap

[shardian]

When a guitar string snaps, the guitar is "broken" until the string is replaced.

Straight from the dictionary:
Broken: not functioning properly; out of working order.

[shardian]

When a microswitch malfunctions on a nintendo joystick, the "joystick" is "broken". The "shaft", the "body", the "actuator", the "bearing", the "restrictor", etc - are not "broken".

........

[MaximRecoil]

WOW Cheffo, over the past several months since the "debate"  I've seen many jabs about the joysticks, and the only time I see somebody joke that it's going to flair back up is now, and you were right.  Any ideas about some up coming lotto numbers you'd be willing to share?

Pshaw ... it was nothing ... I knew Maxim was hanging around and he'll bite at that bit of bait every single time (he's even more predictable than genesim and a discussion of LCD vs CRT or MK vs SF).

LOL @ "bait". Let me explain something; "bait" without a trap is just free food.

[ChadTower]

AKA trolling.

The trap is the pavlovian response itself. 

[MaximRecoil]

 People were claiming that a joystick with a broken microswitch was a "broken joystick", which is like claiming that a guitar with a broken string is a "broken guitar".

well.. that's not a very good analogy though..  I change my strings at least every two weeks at a cost that's less than 1% of the total value of the guitar.

The analogy was valid. Another analogy would be a tennis racket with a broken string.

BTW, what does a microswitch cost? What does a spring cost? Most people in this hobby have those things kicking around the house anyway. Neither part is ever likely to break under home use anyway, since they last for years under arcade use.

Its not economical to repair a Nintendo joystick that's totally shot and the parts cost more than a newer, more durable balltop stick like a Sanwa.

First, there is no such thing as a "Nintendo joystick that's totally shot", except for the one that Cheffo took a big hammer to out of frustration. Even then, the only thing major he did was bend the base. Oh, and Sanwa's are not "more durable". In case you didn't notice, they use microswitches and springs too, which are just as prone to breaking as the ones in any other joystick.

Besides, after all the trouble of sourcing parts and disassembling and reassembling the thing you still just have a ---smurfy--- Nintendo joystick    Maybe they were designed to be used by arthritic old ladies or something...

Yes, sourcing microswitches and springs is quite a bit of trouble (lol).

but at any rate.. how do you define broken?  by your definition not many things are truely broken.  What if a guitar had a broken neck?  this actually happens commonly enough.  It happened to me.  The guitar actually still held string tension and was playable.  was it broken? it was functional..  what would have to happen to it before it was considered broken?  Every part is available.. if nothing was left but a a few tuner pegs you could still buy the parts to "fix" it.

If you want to know the definition of "broken" then look it up (keep in mind that the dictionary is not a usage guide). However, if you haven't figured out how people actually use the word in everyday language, by this stage in your life, then I don't know what to tell you.

When a microswitch malfunctions on a nintendo joystick, the "joystick" is "broken". The "shaft", the "body", the "actuator", the "bearing", the "restrictor", etc - are not "broken".
 
When a guitar string snaps, the guitar is "broken" until the string is replaced.

Yet another person who confuses a dictionary definition with actual language usage. Here is what you can do, since you have apparently been confusing people you know with your incorrect take on how the word "broken" should be applied: go to a guitar or tennis forum. Make a post saying, "I broke my guitar" or "I broke my tennis racket". Then post a picture of a perfectly intact racket or guitar, with a little arrow pointing to the broken string. See if you don't get told something along the lines of "You didn't break the racket/guitar, you simply broke a string."

[MaximRecoil]

AKA trolling.

The trap is the pavlovian response itself. 

Apparently you think you can redefine the word "trap". You can't. There is only a trap if I am being compelled by your "bait" into a compromising position. Since none of you "broken Nintendo joystick" types can get the upper hand in an argument with me (some of you will soon resort to simple "heckling", I can see it with a prophet's ken, lol), there is no compromising position, therefore, no trap.

You can't "trap" someone into being on the correct side of an argument.

[shardian]

Can we get this guy a custom title already?

Seriously, I think Saint also has his popcorn and beverage of choice ready. Why else would he keep this part of the thread instead of trashing it?

[CheffoJeffo]

Mmmmm ...

[leapinlew]

 Hi Maxim!

[saint]

Post zinc.

http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/23.htm

[brandon]

Make a post saying, "I broke my guitar" or "I broke my tennis racket". Then post a picture of a perfectly intact racket or guitar, with a little arrow pointing to the broken string. See if you don't get told something along the lines of "You didn't break the racket/guitar, you simply broke a string."

but there again.. broken guitar strings are a very common occurance..  even if they dont break they get "crusty" from gunk, dead skin, corrosion... within a week or two.  on the other hand I've NEVER had to change a microswitch on a joystick..  now, I'm sure that in an arcade they wear out all the time but not with the frequency of once a week.  you can buy a Happs stick for what $7.95 ?  That's practically disposible.    Here it is in a nutshell... I joystick with broken switches or springs is in need of repair  aka BROKEN

BTW, Did a search for broken Tennis racket and this is the first thing that came up...



and again.. rethreading a Tennis racquet isn't as simple as changing strings on a guitar. In fact, it costs about half the cost of a brand new racquet at Walmart... SO..

[brandon]

Post zinc.

http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/23.htm

so you sacrificed this thread to save the others?  are Nintendo sticks made of Zinc? 

[CheffoJeffo]

Post zinc.

http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/23.htm

OK ... that is weird (or maybe jsut that time of year) ... the topic of zincs came up in my RealLife(tm) just yesterday ...

That saint, he is all-knowing,

 

[Zakk]

It's not broken!

[Namco]

Here I go eating the troll bait, but I'd like to point out that strings on a guitar and a tennis racquet are consumable items like brakes on a car, stickies on a 3M lint roller, or caps in a monitor.

Microswitches obviously have to be cleaned/replaced all the time as a part of regular maintenance. How many games have you played with non-working directions or buttons over the years? Anyway, since an arcade proprietor most likely goes through a crapton of switches, wires, and buttons during the course of operation, they are in fact consumables in the coin operated industry. Therefore a broken microswitch does not a broken joystick make, it just needs a new microswitch. Now bust the shaft in half or rip the threads out of the balltop, then it's broken.

[MaximRecoil]

but there again.. broken guitar strings are a very common occurance..  even if they dont break they get "crusty" from gunk, dead skin, corrosion... within a week or two.  on the other hand I've NEVER had to change a microswitch on a joystick..  now, I'm sure that in an arcade they wear out all the time but not with the frequency of once a week.  you can buy a Happs stick for what $7.95 ?  That's practically disposible. 

What does this have to do with anything?

Here it is in a nutshell... I joystick with broken switches or springs is in need of repair  aka BROKEN

Like a lamp with a blown lightbulb is a "broken lamp"? LOL. Where do you come from that they talk that way?

BTW, Did a search for broken Tennis racket and this is the first thing that came up...

Followed by how many pictures of broken rackets?

and again.. rethreading a Tennis racquet isn't as simple as changing strings on a guitar. In fact, it costs about half the cost of a brand new racquet at Walmart... SO..

Again, what does that have to do with anything? BTW, it costs me about $2 to string a racket with basic "tournament nylon". In all the years I've been playing tennis and stringing rackets, I've never once heard someone refer to a broken string as a "broken racket".

[CheffoJeffo]

Mmmmm ...

[MaximRecoil]

Here I go eating the troll bait, but I'd like to point out that strings on a guitar and a tennis racquet are consumable items like brakes on a car, stickies on a 3M lint roller, or caps in a monitor.

Microswitches obviously have to be cleaned/replaced all the time as a part of regular maintenance. How many games have you played with non-working directions or buttons over the years? Anyway, since an arcade proprietor most likely goes through a crapton of switches, wires, and buttons during the course of operation, they are in fact consumables in the coin operated industry. Therefore a broken microswitch does not a broken joystick make, it just needs a new microswitch. Now bust the shaft in half or rip the threads out of the balltop, then it's broken.

That's exactly right, and it is what I have been saying all along. I have already used the "brakes on a car" analogy in the past.

To sum up how the word "broken" is actually used by native English speakers who are not being deliberately obtuse:

- When something doesn't work and the person describing it as "broken" has no idea what is wrong with it. Auto mechanics like to take these types for a ride.

- When a solid object is stressed to the point that it fractures into multiple smaller objects. For example, snap a stick in two and it is broken. Drop a glass on the floor so that it shatters; it is broken.

- When a major, fundamental component of a structure or assembly fails. For example, blow your motor and your car is broken, or more commonly known as "broken down" when referring to cars.

People do not generally refer items with consumables that need to be replaced (and are user-replaceable) as "broken", unless they haven't got a clue (see above). Typical consumables include light bulbs, batteries, filters, springs & shocks, tires, etc.

[CheffoJeffo]

Every. Single. Time.

[SavannahLion]

yeah.. it is pretty funny!  what's also funny is that several "purist" restoring Donkey Kong cabinets went with Sanwa sticks instead...that should tell you something..  well, at least those are made in Japan

That's a contradiction of terms. In other words, if you use 3rd party parts when "restoring" a machine, particularly when OEM parts are readily available, you are not a "purist" by default. And technically this is not "restoring", it is "refurbishing".

I've got this red Donkey Kong that I'm trying to restore. What do I need to do with it to get it back to it's original state?

Restoration is a very flexible term since its meaning tends to change in subtle ways from field to field. In some fields, such as paint restoration, it means exactly what it implies, the repair of a painting back to its original or near original state.

However, when archiving, restoration doesn't necessarily mean restoring back to the original state. As implied above, this is undesirable for many items since it is considered an alteration. Therefor restoration is often used to specify functional restoration. This has slightly different connotation than an actual repair... or as you so desire, a refurbishing.

In other fields, true restoration is understood to be impossible or even undesirable. For instance, many car enthusiasts restore classic or antique automobiles. A GTO might have a fiberglass body held in place with steel clips. Those steel clips tended to rust badly. NOS OEM clips are available, but are undesirable to use. Preference is for third party clips made from stainless steel. All of these cars are still considered restored, even though their individual parts may not be OEM. Another field includes the restoration of antique lamps. Old wires were insulated in cotton or silk. In their original state, a person would be utterly insane to plug such a lamp in. Obtaining original cloth insulated wiring is still feasible (I have such a roll at home). However, using such cords is undesirable, even for true restoration work. The preferred method is to replace such wiring with standard rubber/plastic insulated. If the look of cloth wound is still desired, it's preferred to jacket modern wiring giving the appearance of cloth insulated wiring, such as those offerings from Sundial.

By your narrow (albeit one of several correct) definition of restoration, nearly every single cabinet in the hands of every collector is not a restoration but a refurbishing. As soon as someone uses a cap, a spring, or even a Star Wars yoke or a TRON joystick from a different manufacturer that breaks your extremely narrow definition of the word. In practical usage, my cabinet is a restoration, even though I didn't use the same monitor(s). By the definition of my professional (and higher paid) coworkers, I've restored a Dictabelt despite not using any OEM parts. In fact, as bound by a contract, I am unable to modify said machine with modern parts if it conflicts with the restoration process.

By the way, your trap and bait argument doesn't work out very well. These guys might be ---uvulas---, but they got you by the Pavlovian bells.

[Havok]

Can't we just say "fix" ?

[MaximRecoil]

In other fields, true restoration is understood to be impossible or even undesirable. For instance, many car enthusiasts restore classic or antique automobiles. A GTO might have a fiberglass body held in place with steel clips. Those steel clips tended to rust badly. NOS OEM clips are available, but are undesirable to use. Preference is for third party clips made from stainless steel. All of these cars are still considered restored, even though their individual parts may not be OEM. Another field includes the restoration of antique lamps. Old wires were insulated in cotton or silk. In their original state, a person would be utterly insane to plug such a lamp in. Obtaining original cloth insulated wiring is still feasible (I have such a roll at home). However, using such cords is undesirable, even for true restoration work. The preferred method is to replace such wiring with standard rubber/plastic insulated. If the look of cloth wound is still desired, it's preferred to jacket modern wiring giving the appearance of cloth insulated wiring, such as those offerings from Sundial.

Talk to a Mopar concours guy. GM and Ford guys are well known to play fast and loose with both the word "restoration" and the restoration itself. Mopar guys like correctly date-coded radiator hoses, reproduced factory overspray and grease pencil markings from the assembly line, and things of that nature.

By your narrow (albeit one of several correct) definition of restoration, nearly every single cabinet in the hands of every collector is not a restoration but a refurbishing. As soon as someone uses a cap, a spring, or even a Star Wars yoke or a TRON joystick from a different manufacturer that breaks your extremely narrow definition of the word. In practical usage, my cabinet is a restoration, even though I didn't use the same monitor(s). By the definition of my professional (and higher paid) coworkers, I've restored a Dictabelt despite not using any OEM parts. In fact, as bound by a contract, I am unable to modify said machine with modern parts if it conflicts with the restoration process.

I wouldn't worry too much about that. When it is something blatantly obvious like the wrong joystick, it clearly falls into the "refurbishment" category.

By the way, your trap and bait argument doesn't work out very well.

It works fine. You would need to explain why it doesn't work, logically, in order for you to have an argument here—you know, rather than simply proclaiming it "as thus."

These guys might be ---uvulas---, but they got you by the Pavlovian bells.

Impossible. In an argument, you can't both have someone "by the Pavlovian bells", and be on the wrong side of the argument, simultaneously.

Additionally, in case you haven't noticed, arguing is one of my favorite things to do, which further negates the "bait/trap" aspect...e.g., "Ha, you fell into my trap. I left money on the table with your name on it, as bait, and you took it! Wait until you see my next trap!"

[Havok]

Talk to a Mopar concours guy. GM and Ford guys are well known to play fast and loose with both the word "restoration" and the restoration itself. Mopar guys like correctly date-coded radiator hoses, reproduced factory overspray and grease pencil markings from the assembly line, and things of that nature.

Oh great, now you're gonna get the car guys going - I'm a GM guy, and I can tell you that the grand generalization you are extolling is most likely based on absolutely no statistics. Talk to an old 'Vette owner - I think the phrase you are really looking for is a "numbers matching" resto - and anybody can do that, show me some numbers that prove the Mopar guys have this locked up...

[CheffoJeffo]