I finally got a pin...RESTORED AND LOVING IT.

[shardian]

EDIT: See the last page or so for finished playfield results.


unfortunately, it is a Charlie's Angels. Hey, you gotta start somewhere, right? Especially on my budget.
I won it by accident. I just put a token $1 extra bid in to bump up the highest bidders price. Except that was his high point, and noone else ever bid over the last 2 hours! Judging by the despcription, the pin is most likely suffering from the slam tilt error that Gottelieb Sys. 1's are prone to. As soon as I get it I will be disabling the slam tilts to see what happens. I'll be picking it up either tommorrow or friday.
Anyways, onto the pics.

[shardian]

Anyone have an idea of what this pins value is in fully working condition?

[menace]

Congrats!  For what its worth (i.e. take with grain of salt) mr. pinball guide for '06 says 525$

Depends on playfield wear, backglass condition, cab condition, right buyer in your area etc etc. 

[shardian]

The seller rates the backglass as a 7 and the playfield as a solid 8. The pictures look pretty good, so I'd say those ratings are at least fairly accurate.
I figured the value would be around $500 in Mr. Pinball... pretty much every older SS is around $500. I paid $277, os hopefully I can get it fully functional with out to much investment. It would be nice to know that I could trade up in the future.

[ChadTower]

That looks in pretty strong shape.  Nice job.  It's not a money pin but it is definitely a great first one - not nearly as complex as later ones but still SS.

[shardian]

I was over at IPDB and apparently the guy who owns the gottilieb name is handing out C&D letters now. Since when did this start happening?

BTW, anyone have a scan of the manual for this one, or at least a sys. 1 manual?

[ChadTower]

That's not new.  Gottlieb manuals have been out of the loop for a long time.

I may have a scan of it someplace.  I'll see what I can find.  If I don't have one, I do have a Sinbad and very likely the manual.  I could make photocopies.

[shardian]

I just talked to the guy and he is going to bring it up to my house tonight! He also has the original schematics and manual, so I am good on that front. Damn I can't wait to get home now, I don't care if it is Charlies Angels, it a PIN and its MINE!! 

[ChadTower]

He is going to deliver it?  Bonus.

[shardian]

He is going to deliver it?  Bonus.

Yeah, that was a definite bonus. The wife would probably have been more pissed about me taking up a whole evening going to get it than buying the pin itself.

[SavannahLion]

SS?

[Q*Bert_OP]

SS?

Solid State (contains CPU/Sound/Other PCBs)

[SavannahLion]

SS?

Solid State (contains CPU/Sound/Other PCBs)

As opposed to mechanical/relay type circuits? OK, that makes sense.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, prior to about 1978, they were all electromechanical.  Lots of relays and stepper units for logic processing.

[JeepMonkey]

Congrats!

I bought my first pin a year ago.  A 1979 Solar Ride for $350.  It was a nice starter pin, but now I find myself wanting to upgrade.  Right now I am on a South Park pin kick.

Arcade, pinball, it doesn't matter.  Must upgrade and add on.

[ChadTower]

Erm, yeah, go from $350 to $2800.   

[ChadTower]

Found a PDF of your manual, plus a bunch of other stuff.  Where I can email it?

[shardian]

Well I have the pin and I must say, for the price I paid I think I did very well for a first pin. It obviously needs a very good cleaning, new rubbers, new ball. I have the marvin3m sys1 guide and plan on going thru it and doing all of the preliminary stuff immediately. The underside of the playfield is in VERY good shape from a quick isual inspection. No dirt, rust, or bad looking things. All boards are intact and look good. No acid damage at all, which is amazing. The guy I bought it off of removed the battery as soon as he got it.There is a capacitor that is hanging off of the power supply in a strange way, so I will be rebuilding the whole PS just to be safe. The cabinet is dirty, but in very good shape otherwise. The backglass has very minimal flaking on the girls face areas around where the lights are. You don't even see it when the machine is off. There are only two very small wear areas on the playfield near two of the bonus lights. VERY easy to touch up.
I'll take some detailed pictures in the next few days when I get time.

[ChadTower]

Sweet.  It inspired me to start a bit more work on my Sinbad.  I had already TripleThicked the backglass yesterday.  Today I took the CPU board out and removed the battery.  Not a drop of corrosion on it.  A miracle.

I see another obvious problem, though... one of the solenoid buffer chips has a chunk missing.  That ain't good.

[vintagegamer]

Soooooo........................... you mentioned a few months back that you didn't need any more projects, so you let a wonderful Ms Pac rot away on someone's front porch.  And now I hear that you're sitting up at 2AM in your boxers, bidding on Charlies Angels pins on eBay....    Did I miss anything?  Anyone else see something weird going on here?   

And uh, oh yeah- congrats BOSLEY..


VG

[shardian]

Soooooo........................... you mentioned a few months back that you didn't need any more projects, so you let a wonderful Ms Pac rot away on someone's front porch.  And now I hear that you're sitting up at 2AM in your boxers, bidding on Charlies Angels pins on eBay....    Did I miss anything?  Anyone else see something weird going on here?   

And uh, oh yeah- congrats BOSLEY..


VG

I bid on work time, thank you! I can't get ahold of the Ms. Pac people. There ain't much I can do about that. I have been able to get the misses to accept the pin begrudgingly, but she has officially put the hammer down on projects - NO MORE. 

[shardian]

Did some initial testing. First off, here is what the game does when powered on: all of the playfield and backglass lights are on, and the gameover light is flashing. The displays do not show any signs of life. Other than that, nothing.

All the power block fuses are good. I started the initial testing and apparently my power supply is bad, or at least needs some work. The input voltages are present and listed below:

pin1 11.5VAC needed, ~12.6 present
pin2 11.5VAC needed, ~12.6 present
pin3 14VAC needed, ~15 present
pin5 14VAC needed, ~15 present

That is where things start to suck. There are no 5VDC, or -12VDC present at the top connector that supplies the MPU. The -12 pin goes straight to solid 0 on the DMM. The 5 volt pins flutter around .3 volts. I notice that the connector up there was kind of wobbly, so I at least need to take out the power supply and reflow some solder joints. The right side connector that supplies the displays has a 60VDC pin, a 42VDC pin, a 4VDC pin, and an 8VDC pin. All pins show nothing except the 8VDC pin - it shows 16VDC??

In the marvin3m manual, it says that if a -12VDC supply is missing, your MPU is ---fouled up beyond all recognition---. However, since nothing is getting thru I think I am safe there at least.
Oh, and it appears that the trouble large caps on the power supply have been changed at some point. Last thing, yes, the J1 PS connector is installed the right way.
So, is the peanut gallery in aggreement that I have a bad power supply?

Addition: I went ahead and took out the power supply before I even finished this post. Anyways, the problems are QUITE evident after getting to the back of the power supply. Fist off, I didn't have to desolder the Q1 transistor because the bad solder joints kind of just fell off.  I noticed some masking tape here and there adn found out it was a brilliant way of isolating a repaired lifted trace repair. The repaired trace was on one of the 14VAC input lines, so I'm a little worried about MPU damage. Oh and the J1 connector pin header - I think my 6 month old girl could have soldered that better. Cold solder and broken joints galore.

Needless to say, I don't think this power supply is going back in the machine. I'm liking this pin hobby already! There is so much more crap to mess with. I feel like I have already expanded my electrical knowledge by about 10 times.

[ChadTower]

If it's that bad, just replace it.  There are great new replacement boards for the System1 and System80 machines.   Redesigned and improved upon.

[shardian]

If it's that bad, just replace it.  There are great new replacement boards for the System1 and System80 machines.   Redesigned and improved upon.

There is a clean P/S on ebay I am watching right now for cheap. I'm not sold on getting a $70 new PS quite yet. I'd rather get the machine running and then go from there. I've already vowed to not buy a single cosmetic thing until the game works.

[ChadTower]

If it helps, you'll never get the machine running reliably without a proper power supply.  Pins, far more than vids, are sensitive to that.

Here's the usual order of things for this game:

• Check the fuses for ratings and continuity before you turn it on.
• Turn it on and get the power supply right.
• Replace battery or at least remove it.
• Repin the connectors, retin edge connectors, repin headers.
• Make all ground mods suggested on marvin3m.
• Playtest and fix issues as necessary.

90% of your issues will be gone by the time you get the ground mods done, and doing those things will ensure that you don't end up chasing 15 failures in the next year.  If you don't do them it will fail more than once and soon.

[shardian]

I got a quote for  a power supply from pbresource.com - $90 for NOS! Damn!

[ChadTower]

What do you mean by power supply?  Is this the power supply PCB or the transformer/rectifier circuit?

[shardian]

What do you mean by power supply?  Is this the power supply PCB or the transformer/rectifier circuit?

Power supply pcd up in the back box.

[shardian]

BTW, where can I get a cheap molex crimper tool? I can't find one on mouser.com
I am in the process of filling a cart with the stuff to repin all of the connectors.

[ChadTower]

Ah... I'd definitely not bother with NOS.  Not for a $500 pin.  Get a used working one from RGP.

Have you verified that the PCB is receiving what it needs?

I'd be really surprised if mouser doesn't have a crimper.

[ChadTower]

Some helpful stuff.

http://www.flippers.com/servicing_the_gottlieb_system_1_.html

$80 replacement board

[menace]

I recently refurbed a gottlieb sys80b--replaced the power supply in the backbox with one from an arcade machine (long live peter chou) got a solid +5 out of that as opposed to from gottliebs shaky pot (not sure if system 1's have the same setup)

When it came to edge connectors I said "screw you crimper"  and bought a bag of .56 molex pins and solder the wires into them--100% solid connection and without a decent crimper the connection is waaaaaayy better (i personally found it faster but I'm a soldering demon and a crimping newb) 

Another thing I had to do was replace half the fuses with the proper sized ones (might want to check that--lots of ops just up the fuse rating until it stops blowing). 

[shardian]

I recently refurbed a gottlieb sys80b--replaced the power supply in the backbox with one from an arcade machine (long live peter chou) got a solid +5 out of that as opposed to from gottliebs shaky pot (not sure if system 1's have the same setup)

Sys 1 needs all kinds of voltages. The CPU needs +5 and -12. The displays need 64 and 42 I believe. A pc power supply is recommended for a test bench setup. I don't think it is a viable long term use inside the pin though.

[shardian]

BTW, I am slowly building up an order with mouser. So far, I have the stuff to redo the connector pins, the stuff I need to rebuild the power supply (for $10 or so, it is worth a shot), about 20 1n4004 diodes for coils, 2 switch diodes (40 cents a pop, so just 2). I also need to order some matching fuses to keep on hand.

My question is, are there certain things I should go ahead and get "because I'll need them sooner than later" from mouser? Specific cheap transistors that are common, or anything else you may think of recommending.

[menace]

Maybe a look at the driver/main board and order a couple of whatever popular transistors are on there.  Mine were u45's and a13's.  I had to order 10 replacement u45's for the aux lamp board and at least 2 a13's were bad for a couple of playfield lights.   

Again there are big differences between sys 1 and 80b but you can check your transistors with power off and the board pulled in any case--you should be able to tell if you have some that are bad or questionable. 

Another part I had to scrounge were silicon germanium diodes (clear glass looking things) needed about 4 of those but they were for chasing lights so if your game doesn't have them its a moot point. 

If you are doing any chip replacement make sure to get a chip socket installed--makes any future repairs easier (not worth installing if things are fine though). 

I'm sure there's more but can't recall right now...

[ChadTower]

Yeah.  For every part you order, order 25% more than you need.  Some parts will be bad new.  Others will go bad because you didn't catch the cause, replaced a part, and the new one got fried too.  Some that are good now will die with use before long.  You rarely ever "only need exactly 3 diodes".  If you need 3 now, buy 6.  It SUCKS to have to make another order and pay shipping because you're one resistor short.

[shardian]

I was showing a buddy the pin this evening, and decided to pull the bottom connectors on the CPU board to check the pins (I hadn't got around to that yet). OH MY! I can see why the Marvin guide is adamant that you change pins. Most of them are broken, and there is the blue-green battery acid corrosion on most of them. I looked closer under light at the CPU, and there is definitely signs of blue-green corrosion on parts here and there such as the resistor leads, and a little here and there on the board. Still, the damage on the board is not significant, but I'll still be pulling it and doing the vinegar bath this weekend hopefully.
I also was at the mall tonight and stopped in Radioshack to see if there were any parts I could pick up now that I could put to immediate use... They don't have crap.
And of course, here are some pics.

Cosmetically, I couldn't have asked for a better pin for the price. Only two minor wear spots that will be easy to fix. The flaking on the skin of the girls on the backglass isn't all that bad and should be very easy to fix once I match the skin color. I don't know, I think I like the skin disease look.

As you can see, the business end of the playfield is very clean. They say the mechanical parts on gottlieb Sys1's are very durable. We'll see once I get the mess of the electrical figured out.

And check out all of that ORIGINAL documentation. I don't know WTF I was supposed to do with all of those scoring cards back in the day - hand them out or something?

[shardian]

Now that you have seen the body, lets take a look under the hood.

Notice the beautiful repair work on the power supply.  The dangling cap is my favorite. The more I think about it, the more I think I'll make a go at a thorough repair job of the PS.

There is much more battery crap on the CPU than I originally took stock of. It is definitely getting a good bath. Can I REALLY put this thing in the dishwasher as I have heard?? Most of the pins in the connectors are broken. If not, they have a good coating of blue crap. This has me kind of worried.

Lastly, the driver board. Isn't it nice how a picture with flash can make things like a burn mark really jump out at you? According to the documentation, that piece is for the kicker coil.

The last two pics are the power board and the sound board. Nothing interesting there.

[shardian]

That burn mark had me worried on the driver board, so I pulled the board and tested everything. On the other side, the burn mark was pretty substantial. However, the replacement transistor tested good, so whomever fixed it must have got it - even though their solder skills sucked. All in all, I did have one A13 transistor fail a test. They just drive cpu controlled lights, so I'll just replace that puppy.

A question for the pinheads though. The large transistor on the board is a 2n3055. It tested good at around .6, but occasionally it would test at around .9? I would retest and move around and it would test back at .6 after a bit. Could this be to me just not holding my DMM leads properly, or should I just go ahead and replace the part?

Well I think I've made enough progress tonight. Maybe I should hit the hay while I still have a chance to sleep.

Oh and FYI, I like working on the pin WAY more than working with arcade cabs. Pins are all electrical, and thus, quiet. I can work all night and the wife never hears anything.

[shardian]

Maybe a look at the driver/main board and order a couple of whatever popular transistors are on there.  Mine were u45's and a13's.  I had to order 10 replacement u45's for the aux lamp board and at least 2 a13's were bad for a couple of playfield lights.   

I had an a13 test bad, so I ordered some of those. My board also uses 7 U45's, but mouser.com does not carry them. All of mine tested just fine and are original, but the marvin3m guide says they are prone to failure. Where did you get yours?

[ChadTower]

2n3055 is a power amp transistor... so if you're in doubt, swap it, I'd say.

Yeah, pins are a LOT more fun than cabs.  You're starting with good electrical knowledge, too, which is making it pretty fast.

Be careful around those spider chips on the cpu board.  IIRC they're custom to Gottlieb and the only replacements are pulls from other boards.

[alexred]

I have a Gottlieb Count-Down from the same era.  You should really consider replacing the power supply with a new RottenDog.  All new components and all the ground mods are built in.  That or get one of Pascals boards that replace everything. 

[ChadTower]

That will make it bulletproof - though he still has to do all of the connector refurb work.  It will make it costly, as well.  If I do that with my Sinbad, and I'm considering it, I will still repair all of the original boards.  So he may as well keep going, IMO.

[shardian]

I have a Gottlieb Count-Down from the same era.  You should really consider replacing the power supply with a new RottenDog.  All new components and all the ground mods are built in.  That or get one of Pascals boards that replace everything. 

I'd really prefer to learn and fix the existing boards. Plus, I just don't have the finances to get the Pi1 X4 (though that would be ideal). My power supply is missing diodes and resistors in several areas, so I'm gonna have to learn to read electrical schematics REALLY good to figure out where and what to replace with.

In the end though, I might go ahead and get a replacement power supply. That is really the first line of defense.

[shardian]

Ok, I did the battery acid corrosion damage control on the MPU. There were some resistors and one of the spider chips that had corrosion on their legs. I'm not too sure how much effect that will have, but I did my best, and as you can see in the first pic, most of the corrosion is gone on the spider ship, though there appears to be some white buildup down at the board level. There were some traces that were corroded as shown in the second pic. On the back, pretty much all of the bottom pins were badly corroded. You can see from the last pic that I had to sand down to copper on all  but the far left few. I'll tin all of those connectors over the next few days. I really, really, really hope I can salvage my MPU board as I really, really, really don't want to have to plunk down $200 on a new replacement. And I'll tell you, salvaging those spider chips from another board would be damn near impossible to do without damaging them somewhere along the line.

[ChadTower]

That's actually not too bad.  I've seen much worse boards come back to life.

[Wade]

You guys are crazy.  Arcades are far more fun than pins.  The only good thing about pin repair is that most of it is well documented on the net and if you can read, you can probably repair the problem.  Drawback, Video game boards are usually harder to repair and thus replacement or professional repair are often needed.

Here's why you're both crazy.  First of all, Video games are usually easier to clean up and restore (excepting the PCB's).  Second, usually after a restore, a video is far more reliable than a pin.  Third, even though a pin might work 100% electrically, that doesn't mean it plays well.  I've played SO many 100% working pins that actually play like crap, because some mechs or coils are worn.  And even after replacing all the worn parts, they still usually take a lot of "tweaking" to really get them playing well.  My 2 current pins are great examples, they both have nagging problems even though they work electronically.  And even when they truly work flawlessly, it's only a matter of a couple hundred plays before something breaks again or goes out of adjustment.  That's the nature of a mechanical device that contains at least one heavy steel ball that is constantly being thrown at.  Sometimes a half dozen balls.  Even a well sorted game will play funny if it's pushed a little off level or what not.  Videogames rarely have these issues, either they work or they don't and either they are clean/restored or they aren't.

I won't even get started on gameplay...

Really though.  I think that was a pretty good purchase for the money.  Pins are fun to play, and they tend to get more fun the more you play (and the better player you become).  With a pin in your house, you'll find yourself playing a lot more pins in the wild, and kicking butt on them too.  You'll start winning replays almost every time you play an operated pin.  Again, that makes it even more fun too.   It's not really about winning the virtual $0.50 but just knowing you can "beat the machine."  I hardly play any modern videogames out any more, but I always play the pins.  After all, pins are still basically the same as they were 30 years ago, not much of a learning curve.  I haven't been "up" on the new video games for about 15 years so I hardly play them except for an occasional novelty.

TTYL,
Wade

[shardian]

The documentation is why I am having so much fun. With the vids, I spend hours and hours doing research, searching for parts ( if anyone has a spare Xevious bezel PLEASE hookme up! ), etc. With this pin, I just printed out the basic pin guide, and the specific sys. 1 repair guide and dug in.

I've also noticed that the wife isn't getting too upset with me working on the pin. She has said she doesn't care too much for the video games because she doesn't like staring at a monitor. I am thinking she is really looking forward to having "her"pin.

[ChadTower]

I stop reading any post immediately when the first sentence is an insult.   

[Crowquill]

I stop reading any post immediately when the first sentence is an insult.  

Definitely not the best way to start but he has some good points.

I really want a pin but repairs scares the out of me. Replacing a Xevious bezel may be tough, but replacing some of the plastics in a pin can be even harder.

OTOH, it'll be a whole new learning experience (which I welcome), but I won't be able to skate by without improving my soldering skills like I can on a video. Someday I'll stumble onto a decently-priced pin and be forced to face my fears 

Looks like you got a nice-looking pin and a good handle on getting it going. I'm sure your wife will love "her" pin.

[ChadTower]

Replacing a playfield plastic is easier than replacing a bezel.  Can be done in 30 seconds without even hurrying.

[shardian]

Replacing a playfield plastic is easier than replacing a bezel.  Can be done in 30 seconds without even hurrying.

I think he meant sourcing the parts.

[ChadTower]

For the most part, but pinball is a labor of love.  I bought myself a good scroll saw for making my own plastics.  Haven't done it yet but should work out well.  I also plan on making plastic protectors for most if not all of my games.

[Wade]

I stop reading any post immediately when the first sentence is an insult.   

That's too bad, and if it's true then you're missing a lot of good posts. If you read past the first few sentences, you'd see that the insult was really tongue-in-cheek.

Crowquill, pin repairs are very doable and help is so well documented on the net.  I wouldn't let it scare you off, though I felt similar to you before getting my first pin.  I've had lots of problems with my pins and managed to repair them.  Also, there are whole families of games (such as Williams WPC) where the vast majority of repair information will be the same for all games from that family.  This makes the online repair guides even more useful.

IMO, the bigger problem with pins is there are a lot of spendy collectors and some of the parts prices are ridiculous.  For example, a set of ramps or plastics easily costs as much as a complete working video game (or two).  Cabinet art for a pin, typically $250-300, versus < $100 for a video game, etc.  This isn't as big of a deal if you don't mind some broken parts and a little wear... but if you want to make/keep your pins really clean and sharp, you have to be willing to spend some bucks!

Wade

[ChadTower]

That's too bad, and if it's true then you're missing a lot of good posts.

I will miss some good posts, but for the most part on the internet, if a person can't even get one sentence in without an insult then their post is only going to go downhill from there.  I filter out a whole lot more useless crap than quality content with this rule.

BTW, your post is good, I fully agree.  I like to live with a little wear.  I'm getting into making my own plastics now and that should help my pins a good amount.

[shardian]

Crowquill, pin repairs are very doable and help is so well documented on the net.  I wouldn't let it scare you off, though I felt similar to you before getting my first pin.  I've had lots of problems with my pins and managed to repair them.  Also, there are whole families of games (such as Williams WPC) where the vast majority of repair information will be the same for all games from that family.  This makes the online repair guides even more useful.

Yeah I was worried about getting a pin too. When I sit back and look at what I have already done with the pin, I am amazed. I mean, I have taken sandpaper to a frikkin circuit board along with dousing them in liquids...according to the directions! I couldn't imagine coming to the conclusion to do either of those things to a board on my own.
The documentation on marvin3m and thisoldpinball is very high quality stuff. I still can't believe that I don't have to pay for it either.

[shardian]

Well, I read the section on setting up a test bench for the cpu this morning and to say the least, I don't see the point. Basically, if you put iton a test bech and the board doesn't boot up, you are ---fouled up beyond all recognition---. The only thing the testing will do is let you know which chip ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- you.
So, I think I'll save myself the effort and the cost of a logic probe and just concentrate on the power supply. The CPU either works or it don't. Then I'll just wait until Christmas and ask the wife for one of Pacal Janin's boards.

[ChadTower]

Test benches are good when you do batches of boards.  For only one machine, the pin itself is your test bench.

[shardian]

Test benches are good when you do batches of boards.  For only one machine, the pin itself is your test bench.

Well I guess test bench is a poor term in this case. All I have to do is solder in an led and hook up +5 volts and -12 volts from a pc power supply with alligator clips to safely test the cpu. Safely meaning I'm guaranteed to get  proper voltages from a pc supply and not worrying about getting spider chip destroying feedback from stuck coils.

[ChadTower]

Where is this technique shown?  I haven't seen that yet.

[shardian]

Where is this technique shown?  I haven't seen that yet.

It is in the system1 repair manual over at marvin3m. You can just use alligator clips to supply power at two cap locations, then just dabble with either a logic probe, or a DMM. It would take like 10 minutes tops to diagnose the entire board. It took me less than 10 minutes to test the entire driver board using the extremely detailed instructions in the manual.

[Wade]

That's too bad, and if it's true then you're missing a lot of good posts.

I will miss some good posts, but for the most part on the internet, if a person can't even get one sentence in without an insult then their post is only going to go downhill from there.  I filter out a whole lot more useless crap than quality content with this rule.

BTW, your post is good, I fully agree.  I like to live with a little wear.  I'm getting into making my own plastics now and that should help my pins a good amount.

I'm just ribbing you, really, I generally do the same thing about posts with insults.

I go back and forth on if I want to try to make my games as nice as possible, or just live with well playing, functional games with wear.  I definitely started out wanting everything to be mint, and have loosened up a bit over time, but if I had my way all of my games really would be mint.

Wade

[ChadTower]

Usually, I'm cool with wear, unless it is excessive.  I enjoy the restoration process, though, and see it as a hobby issue.  They don't have to be perfect for me to enjoy them but I do enjoy the process of making them better as much as I do playing them.

[shardian]

Just won a "good" power supply off of ebay. I use quotes because the seller worded the auction in the usual way with vintage electronics. They won't go out on a limb and say it is working, but odds are it is. Either way, all of the components are there and it looks way better than mine and the price was right.
I also won a Tenma soldering station yesterday, so next week I should be delving head first into seeing if this badboy works.

[ChadTower]

Heh, I just won a Hakko desoldering station on ebay.  Good stuff.

[shardian]

Heh, I just won a Hakko desoldering station on ebay.  Good stuff.

Did you win it for $36.03? If so, thanks for beating me because I got my Tenma for $28 shipped because I lost that.

[ChadTower]

No, it was $61 + $15 ship, but a temp controlled vacuum pump desoldering station is more expensive.  This one.  A good price.

[shardian]

Oh, you said DE-soldering.

[shardian]

Looks like I about have everything in to get started. I have to order a new iron for the soldering station, but I found my B&D pencil iron, and that will work fine for the non-pcb stuff I have to do until the station is up and running. The new(used) power supply is in excellent condition, but I'm still going to replace the neccessary caps and the big transistor.

I should have a fair good amount of updates over the next week.

[shardian]

Ha, no more worries about the mpu. I just picked up two nice condition spares on ebay for less than $30. Some guy was selling like 10 different system 1 boards. I won the ones with the least popular game chips I suppose, as some of the others went for considerably more cash.

[shardian]

Last update for the night: I finished rebuilding the original power supply, with the exception of one zener diode I have to pick up from Rat Shack on the way home tomorrow. So now I'll have two good power supply's, and most likely a few working mpu's. I'd say I am in good shape to have a working pin for years.

One question though. Anyone know for sure which side on a xicon axial capacitor is negative? It has a black stripe down one side with negative signs and what appears to be arrows pointing to side lead with what I would call an extra "nub" at the base.

[ChadTower]

Sounds like they marked the negative side... that's fine.  Worst case is you install it backwards and it either doesn't work or actually pops when you power it, depending on why it's there.

Could you give me the url to the ebay auction?  I'd like to peek at those boards.  I may make you an offer on one of them if the MPU in my Sinbad is crap when I get to it.

[shardian]

I set up my mpu for testing, and unfortunately, it appears to not be booting. All is not lost though...yet. There is a list of things I can check that ARE replaceable before I throw in the towel. Just don't have the time right now.

And Chad, the setup for the testing is very easy. Youmight as well give it a shot. It's safer than popping it in the machine because there are no coils to lock on and destroy the board.

[shardian]

A word of advice for anyone ever going to work on a Gottlieb System1 pin: When the repair manual says get the molex pin extractor tool, get the mother ---smurfing--- tool! ( I am doing just fine without the crimper tool though. )
I thought I could save $15 and just use whatever I had around the house. I fiddled around with various tools and found that a sturdy safety pin worked fairly well. Well my brilliant move means I now spend at least five minutes pulling each pin! I screwed up one that now I can't extract and I had to quit for the night due to frustration and my fingers are hurting.

[ChadTower]

If you're just going to replace the pins, you can cut the wires and slide them all out of the front end.  You don't need to be so careful with the pins you're going to throw away.

[shardian]

If you're just going to replace the pins, you can cut the wires and slide them all out of the front end.  You don't need to be so careful with the pins you're going to throw away.

If it was that easy, the guide wouldn't tell you to waste your money on a pin extractor.
Since you are going to do the same thing to your sinbad, go ahead and try to remove a pin yourself. They don't come out the top. These are not trifurcon pins on which you can access the retaining clip from the back. Those are easy.

[ChadTower]

Oh wait, are these the edge contact pins or the ones in molex connectors?

[shardian]

Oh wait, are these the edge contact pins or the ones in molex connectors?

These are for the edge connectors.

[ChadTower]

You're right, those ones are a pain without the right tool.

[shardian]

You're right, those ones are a pain without the right tool.

You have one I could borrow?
For that fact, anyone have one I can borrow?

I've already done my mouser order , so it would cost me like $20 shipped now for the one frikking thing.

[ChadTower]

Can't say I have one... I should buy one, though, I have a bunch of vids that need this treatment as well.

[shardian]

Well I just talked with the guy at pinball resource, and he says the extractor tool is a piece of junk that breaks very easily. He uses a jewelers screwdriver. Coincidentally, I have the same set he uses at home, so I will try that out. He does have the crimper tool for $21, so I went ahead and got it to speed things up.

[ChadTower]

If you take your Dremel to a slightly bigger, but cheap computer case screw size screwdriver, you can make a stronger tool for doing that.  That's what I did.  Make the flathead narrower with a cutting wheel... has to be a cheap one, though, so that it's soft enough to cut.

[shardian]

Got the crimper tool, and let me say - MUCH easier. THe pins are still a ---smurfette--- to get out though. All I can think is it must be because of the bad shape they are in. The spare boards look to be in fairly good shape. Barely any acid damage at all. One of the boards has had two chips scavenged, but they were scavenged cleanly and I can just grab them off of my inoperable boad. If one of them works, then I got my moneys worth.

[shardian]

WHEW! Pinning is done! There were a few harnesses, such as the display ones that were in excellent condition, so I decided not to repin them. Currently, I am piecing together a decent MPU. Both of the ones I got off of ebay are in excellent cosmetic shape, no acid damage.  However, each of them were missing a chip or two. That has me worried a bit, but they were common chips so I will tell myself someone scavenged the chips for a newer game since the system1's weren't in use anymore. Either way, I am using the best looking board and stealing the one missing chip from the other. I will fire this badboy up tommorrow and see what happens.
Wish me luck!

[shardian]

Arghh. I have everything back together, ready to fire up but it is frikkin 2am. I want to apply power so bad right now, but the pin is directly below my sleeping wife. She'd understand if it worked and I played a game, right? 

Ah, well I guess I'll try to sleep...

[shardian]

Ok, I need to enlist the help of a system 1 guru. It is acting in a way that isn't really described in the manuals.
When powered on, the score displays never come on. Upon first startup, the ball/credit display was lit up though. And when I hit the power switch, the p2 and p4 displays did light up briefly, so they are seeing power. The tilt lamp is on, and after a few seconds, the game over lamp starts flashing. No playfield lights on, which tends to say the tilt relay is kicking I think. Anyways, I powered down, did the slam tilt bypass and added the round modifications. After the mods, same thing, but now the ball/credit display does not light up.
A flashing game over light is not discussed anywhere that I can see. WTF is going on here before I blindly start changing things! If anyone knows someone who works with these systems, please hook me up with a contact (Cue Ken Layton here).

[ChadTower]

Sounds like you hit a condition where you GOT power to those items and promptly blew something out that stopped the power to those items.  That does happen. 

[StephenH]

I would try inserting a coin and pressing start to see if the "game over" lamp goes out.   I would also try connecting some meters to each voltage from your power supply and see if any that go to the score displays are now dead. 

[ChadTower]

Woo, one more game... picked up a decent project Jungle Lord yesterday.   

[shardian]

Ok, here is the deal. The display fuse is blowing, I think mainly because of the "on and off" treatment I have been giving the game during testing. Anyways, the reason nothing is working is because the Tilt relay is powering on and staying on as soon as power is applied. I really don't think this is a board issue at all, but yet another crappy wiring issue hidden somewhere in the cabinet wiring. The marvin3m guide briefly mentions a powered on tilt relay, but is not clear in any aspect as to how or why. At one point, the guide says the relay is driver board controlled, which is correct I believe. At another point of mention, the guide says it is cpu controlled (which in respect by a dreaded spider chip). The driver chip and transistor test good, and there are no continuity problems there. I suppose my next step is to trace all of the tilt wiring and see if there is a short.

[Kaytrim]

I am just shooting in the dark here but maybe the wireing is wrong.  As in the hot wire is connected to the NC instead of the NO position on the tilt switch.

Just a thought,
TTFN
Kaytrim

[ChadTower]

While you're checking that, make sure it's actually supposed to be whichever it is... NC or NO.

[shardian]

D Zoot over at klov has given me a few good troubleshooting techniques too, but I don't know if I'll get to them tonight. I'll also check if they are wired properly too.

[shardian]

Last night, I pulled the driver board and powered on the machine per D Zoots advice. The tilt relay stayed off, which pretty much rules out wiring problem... I guess. So either the driver board is messing up, or the switch matrix spider chip is bad. GOOOD TIMES...

[Wade]

"The joys of game collecting..."

Kindof like, "the joys of home ownership."  Boy I used that phrase a lot the first couple of years in our first house.

Wade

[ChadTower]

I thought you checked the spider chips via that bench method?

[shardian]

I thought you checked the spider chips via that bench method?

This is a different MPU board. There is zero acid damage on it, and it had a note on it saying it was "good " last time it was put in a box to be forgotten so i figured it might be a better place to start.
And no, I didn't check the spider chips on the other one either. Checking the actual spider chips requires a probe or osciloscope, of which I have neither. You can however check everything else on the board with a DMM with fairly accurate results. I only checked to see if the board was booting on the bench. I need to modify the PS wiring to make it a little easier to test, as you have to flip on the PS while measuring a few points at the same time. Kinda hard to do when you are plugging the PS in to turn it on and off.

[shardian]

"The joys of game collecting..."

Kindof like, "the joys of home ownership."  Boy I used that phrase a lot the first couple of years in our first house.

Wade

Hey I thought you were out of town? What I need to do is get you down to my house so you can help me get this thing going.

[shardian]

transistor question: How can I tell a transistor is shorted. Common sense tells me there would be a black hole in the board, but just want to make sure. All the literature is pointing me to the driver chip and transistor as being the problem, yet both test good and look good.

BTW, you have a spare U45 transistor, Chad? I am assuming it is a common pin transistor.

[ChadTower]

U45 would just be the board location, wouldn't it?  Not the actual transistor model?

I may have one but have no idea off the top of my head.  When I have to replace a part I usually buy like ten so that I won't have to order again.  I can check when I get home if you want.

[shardian]

U45 would just be the board location, wouldn't it?  Not the actual transistor model?

I may have one but have no idea off the top of my head.  When I have to replace a part I usually buy like ten so that I won't have to order again.  I can check when I get home if you want.

U45 is the transistor type. Mouser did not carry them, so I didn't get any. Plus they all tested good. Apparently those tests aren't always accurate though.

From pinrepair:
MPU-U45 or CEN-U45 transistors for driver board.

[ChadTower]

A quick google turns up:

Jim Austin wrote:
> Hi!
> Don't know whether you can help me out but I'm not into electronics enough
> to know if there is any reasonable substitute for a MPS-U45 transistor?
> I work on old pinball machines that used them to drive the firing of the
> coils but are now obsolete!
> Any help would be appreciated.
> Jim

Dial Elec says the following:
MPSU45  TRANS¼NDT2A40V10WHFE25K-150KUNI BD263;BD677

Which I interpret as meaning that it's a NPN Darlington, 2 amp. 40V,
10Watt hFE of 25,000 to 150,000, in Uniwatt package.  Subs are BD263 or
BD677.  If size is not a problem, then put something larger in its place
such as a TIP120, which can handle more current and power.

Also:

Link

EDIT2:

GPE has them.  Product ID: CENU45

[shardian]

Cool. I need to check if rat shack carries any of those. It's ridiculous to have to pay high shipping for just a few chips and transistors.

[ChadTower]

That's why I order ten when I need one... and I tend to throw in a bunch of other random things I may need in the future.  Email the guy who runs GPE, he can probably throw you together a kit for everything you need for that game.  He's a really good guy.

[shardian]

So GPE specializes in pins, or what? They seem to have everything I would need in a neat and orderly fashion, now don't they? The even have the U45 transistors.
I wish i would have known about this site when I first ordered, it would have made things MUCH easier.

[ChadTower]

I don't know if it specializes in pins or not but they do cater to pin guys.... the guy who runs it is a pin guy too.  They have a lot of rebuilt kits specifically for pins.

[shardian]

Back to my original question: what does a "shorted transistor" mean? Does it just mean the transistor blows up, or can it just mean the potential difference of the pins is "shorted" and it stays active at all times.

[ChadTower]

Depends on the circuit, I think, but in this case my intuition is telling me it would cause an always-on condition.

[shardian]

The willams guide on pinrepair has a whole section detailing transistors and "shorts". Would have been nice if they would have included that info in my repair manual huh?
Anways, yes a shorted transistor means it is internally always on. They also say DMM testing is only 98% accurate, and also that a transistor can test good without load, but be shorted or opened once a load  is applied. Either way, I will replace the tilt relay transistor and driver chip and see what happens. While I'm at it, I need to do the blocking diode modification to the driver board.

[ChadTower]

In a pinch you can take one of the working transistors from another spot and pop it in there to see if that issue goes away.

[shardian]

I wish I had a backup driver board too. I got outbid on it though.

[ChadTower]

I mean from the board you're working on... of course, you'll create another issue, but you'll at least be able to see if your suspected transistor is bad.

[shardian]

It is probably not a good idea to go putting a possibly shorted driver transistor in the place of one that drives a coil that can wreck my MPU. And stealing a U45 on this one is kind of difficult as there is only 4, and they all serve pretty important purposes.

[Wade]

"The joys of game collecting..."

Kindof like, "the joys of home ownership."  Boy I used that phrase a lot the first couple of years in our first house.

Wade

Hey I thought you were out of town? What I need to do is get you down to my house so you can help me get this thing going.

I am out of town, fortunately I'm able to reach the internet and even my work PC's while I'm in class.  I wouldn't be able to help you with these problems any more than Joe Blow off of the street, though!

Wade

[Wade]

Back to my original question: what does a "shorted transistor" mean? Does it just mean the transistor blows up, or can it just mean the potential difference of the pins is "shorted" and it stays active at all times.

Sometimes they burn up internally and don't look bad.  Had this with a bunch of monitor HOTs.

Wade

[shardian]

I picked up 2 TIP120's from Rat Shack yesterday. I'll install one of them probably tonight and see what happens. That source you quoted, are you sure that is reliable info? Just making sure before I install you know.

[ChadTower]

Can't say for sure, here's the source.

[shardian]

I asked the guru (Ken) if he would verify it.

[D_Zoot]

shardian,


I'd be surprised if a TIP is a suitable transistor for this application.  While the current capability is greater than the MPS-U45, and is fine in that respect, I'd be surprised if the other parameters of the transistor were suitable (gain, base current, etc..) for this application.

The CEN-U45 (direct replacement) is available from a few places, such as MCM electronics.  Or, do youself a favor and just order the driver board kit from GPE,  you'll have spare transistors on hand for the next time.

Did you verify all of the tilt switches like we were talking about over at Klov?  When those transistors fail shorted they almost always test shorted, not just shorting under load.  If any one of those tilt switches is closed, or shorted closed, then the CPU and driver board are doing what they are supposed to be doing, energizing the tilt relay.


D

[shardian]

shardian,


I'd be surprised if a TIP is a suitable transistor for this application.  While the current capability is greater than the MPS-U45, and is fine in that respect, I'd be surprised if the other parameters of the transistor were suitable (gain, base current, etc..) for this application.

The CEN-U45 (direct replacement) is available from a few places, such as MCM electronics.  Or, do youself a favor and just order the driver board kit from GPE,  you'll have spare transistors on hand for the next time.

Did you verify all of the tilt switches like we were talking about over at Klov?  When those transistors fail shorted they almost always test shorted, not just shorting under load.  If any one of those tilt switches is closed, or shorted closed, then the CPU and driver board are doing what they are supposed to be doing, energizing the tilt relay.


D

Physically, all of the tilt switches are the way they are supposed to be. I am going to cut the molex connection out of the tilt ground wire this evening, as it has green corrosion on it.
Another note which may or may not matter, When I repinned the bottom driver connector pins, some of the wires showed green corrosion even after I cut back about a half inch to an inch trying to get to clean wire. When I did the repins, I didn't think too much of it. Now though, I think I really need to continuity check the actual wires. Can corrosion eat up the entire length of wire?

[ChadTower]

With solid core wire it can definitely contribute to a break somewhere inside the insulation. 

[shardian]

With solid core wire it can definitely contribute to a break somewhere inside the insulation. 

It is stranded core wiring

[shardian]

Well it looks like I'll be taking the TIP102's back and putting yet another order in at GPE soon. I'm getting sick of buying stuff. Way too much money is going into this thing. Good thing my wife still only considers it a $300 investment.

[ChadTower]

Once you get the hang of shopping out/fixing a pin you can anticipate most of what you'll need and only make a couple of orders upfront.  Makes it a lot easier and cheaper.

[shardian]

A quick update, as I haven't had but a few minutes the last week or so to mess around. I checked, double checked, and rechecked all of the slam and tilt switches to make sure they are closed/open as they are supposed to be.
I also ran continuity checks on the ground wiring to the tilt switches and the wiring is just fine all the way back to the CPU.

Before I go thru the effort and expense of setting up a more advanced CPU test rig and buy a logic probe, I am going to prep the other CPU I have and put it into the machine and see if it acts the same way again. While still possible, the odds of the machine failing the same way due a cpu failure seems highly unlikely to me.

Oh and if anyone has a logic probe they are willing to let me borrow, that would be awesome. Of course, I would pay shipping both ways.

[shardian]

Just a very small update. I got a driver board off of ebay. I put it in and you guessed it, the same damned problem is still there. You know, the one that not a single other system 1 owner has apparently EVER had. I can really see why people don't like system1 machines...

The only good thing that came out of the replacement driver board is that the old driver board had a VERY bad burn spot that looked suspect. Secondly, the new driver board is the revised edition that has the built in blocking diodes. I'll hock the old one on ebay to recoup funds.

What I really need is a known good mpu to see if that is the definite problem. Anyone care to lend me one?

I can't stand to even look at this thing any more hardly at this point.

[ChadTower]

Could the issue be a short in the wiring harness?  It's worth the ten minutes to check.  Maybe take a few jumpers and run your own "harness" to see if it behaves the same way with definitely no shorts.

[shardian]

Could the issue be a short in the wiring harness?  It's worth the ten minutes to check.  Maybe take a few jumpers and run your own "harness" to see if it behaves the same way with definitely no shorts.

Oh wait, there was a difference this time - the playfield lights were on. I need to go test this again tonight and check to see if the tilt relay was in fact engaged.

As to wiring, I have done continuity checking on all of the slam and tilt switches. Not sure how to go about checking shorts in the wiring. I've thoroughly inspected all of the switches and connections and not noticed any shorts there. Like I said before, a known working mpu would save me hours and hours of testing.

[ChadTower]

You check shorts in the wiring the same way you would with anything else... find the wires that are next to each other, check the schematic to see if they should be connected, and if they're not check to make sure they are not.  I'm not thinking a short in the playfield wiring as much as I am perhaps one in the wiring harness between the mpu and the driver board.  Maybe the MPU is working properly but there is a short in the line telling the relay to stay live.

[shardian]

Are you implying I switched wires when repinning good sir? I'll tell you the same thing I tell my boss when he suggests I should check my calculation inputs when a system don't work - My ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- is right.

Seriously though, I have considered that the wiring harness could be wrong. I do need to verify that each point is connected correctly.

[shardian]

I verified this morning that indeed the tilt relay is no longer energizing. The game still will not boot, so the mpu pretty much has to be bad.

[ChadTower]

Well that's one step forward, anyway.

[StephenH]

Here is some info on the System 1 MPU:

 http://www.flippers.com/System1RepairMPU.html
http://www.flippers.com/gott_system_1.html
http://www.geocities.com/stevekulpa/gottlieb1_a1a3.htm

[shardian]

heh, check out this pic of a Charlie's Angel boardset I found online.
http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/460792#18621221
It works...so ---smurfing--- unfair!

[shardian]

Anyways, got my probe scope, have mpu parts on order and I'm ready to start repairing boards. Now to find the time to do the work...

[Level42]

What CPU is on there ?

[ChadTower]

Odd coincedence, I was just reading marvin3m's logic probe tutorial and this is exactly the example he gives... testing a CPU address/data lines and shorting reset pin to ground.

[Level42]

Yeah, I wish someone had suggested that to me earlier

Anyway, if it's a 6502 or Z80 the reset line is actually active when low, so if you measure a constant low, it's constantly in reset (=freeze). If so, try shorting +5v to the reset pin.....it's pin 40 on the 6502, pin 26 on a Z80.

Chad you have a link to that guide ?
Thanks

[Angry_Radish]

Chad you have a link to that guide ?
Thanks

http://www.pinrepair.com/begin/#howprobe

I think this is the one he was referring to.. good stuff on this page!

[ChadTower]

That's it... I've probably read the marvin3m guides 20x by now.  Each time I go through them I understand probably 5% more than the previous reading.

[shardian]

Chad you have a link to that guide ?
Thanks

http://www.pinrepair.com/begin/#howprobe

I think this is the one he was referring to.. good stuff on this page!

Ahh, I skipped that section originally since I didn't have a probe. Thanks for the reminder.

[shardian]

This could give my new scope a workout. Anyone feel like getting in on the lucrative hobby of fixing/selling system 1 boards? FYI, you can get $75 to $100 for a tested working board.

Holy Hell!

[shardian]

Hehe, saw this on a Charlie's Angels that is selling on ebay right now. As you can see, the backglass has missing paint on the faces. I am sure that I am not the only one that finds it disturbing.

[shardian]

OK, I am all set up and well into MPU testing.

Board#1 - the board that came with the machine
- Not sure what is going on here, but the LED lights up very briefly on startup, then is dead. Reset goes to +5, probe shows switching where it is supposed to. According to Marvin 3m, if reset is +5, and all the appropriate test points show switching, then the board should be booting. If not, the guide says the board is shot...but with no good explanation.

Board #2
On power up, the LED lights and stays on - which points to slam switch. THe problem is, I have done the slam switch bypass. I am going to desolder and redo it, just in case. If that don't fix it, then I have no frikkin clue. Any ideas D Zoot?

[shardian]

  \

I HAVE PINBALL!!!!!!!!

I resoldered the slam switch bypass, then noticed an empty chip slot. I thought, WTF is that? Realized it was the test jumper and it was empty. I guess I thought it wasn't necessary or something...

Anyways, I grabbed the test jumper from another board and put it in there. Powered on the test station, waited five seconds and there was light!!

I unhooked that bastard as quick as I could and ran out to the garage to put it in. I powered up, waited five seconds, hit the start button and out popped the ball!!!

I played a few games, then the wife came down wondering why I was screaming. She played a few games and now I can have thanksgiving in peace!

Of course, there are the usual issues. I only plugged in p1 display, but the fuse still popped, so no displays. all solenoids work perfectly. flippers are strong, but left flipper sticks a bit. A few rollovers are not connecting, and of course a few lights are out...but not too many.

Oh, and I have to say, the system one Tone sounds do stink. Definitely will put in bells if I keep this.

So, I can now get started cleaning the playfield and adjusting switches. YAY!!

[ChadTower]

 

Always feels great to get it running again.

[Level42]

 

[Cakemeister]

 

[StephenH]

Next, you need to check:

* Score Display power system for any shorts

*Lights

[shardian]

Board# 3 : I replaced the parts I scavenged, plus two 7417's that were scavenged before I got it. After doing the slam switch mod, the board boots on the bench. I did a quick and dirty logic test, and everything seems ok. There is one thing that is kind of weird though - after the LED lights up on boot, after about 4 seconds it dims a bit, then after about 1 second it gets bright again. I thought that was kinda odd, and wonder why it is doing that. Never heard of that, and the other board didn't do it as far as I can remember.

Meh, it works and that's all that matters for now. At least I know I have a viable backup board. I'm done messing with board work. Though I must admit I am sorely tempted to bid on that 30+ lot of system1 mpu boards on ebay now that I have a working machine and I know how easy it is to test them.

[Kaytrim]

Congrats on getting a working board shardian.    Now the real fun begins.

TTFN

[shardian]

Congrats on getting a working board shardian.    Now the real fun begins.

TTFN

hehe, actually I have now piled some crap up around the pin while I work on the basement. I don't want to turn on the machine since the weather is cold and my garage is not heated. Once the basement living room stuff is back into the basment, I will invest in a heating supply for the garage and get to work on the mechanical aspects.

[shardian]

I've been tinkering again lately with the pin. I pulled the driver board last night, and discovered some problems. First, some background info:

The sound died off last time I messed with it. I had no clue why. I pulled the sound card, and the power caps have scorching near the leads. These sound boards are pretty much never supposed to go bad. I now have the sound card pulled. I'll follow up in a minute

Anyways, I pulled the driver board becaue I knew I had at least one bad lamp driver. I found two bad lamp drivers, then noticed a TIP100 down at the lower right that looked like a dead, bloated fish. It was the knocker coil transistor. I remembered that I had never heard the knocker before, but also noted that this transistor didn't look like that when I originally got the driver board. I replaced it, then went and checked resistance on the knocker coil. It read 12-13 ohms, so I assumed it was good. Anything around 3 or less is a shorted coil.

Thinking everything was kosher, I put the board back in and fired off a few games. Oddly, the knocker coil started firing sporadically. The efforts seemed half-hearted too. It stopped, and I finished testing stuff out. Noticed a ever so slight burning smell too. Anyways, the knocker coil assembly is super hot to the touch, and the newly replaced transistor is super hot too. The coil did not appear to be locked on when I looked at it a few times. Looks like I need to check a few chips on the CPU.

Back to the sound card. It is relevant because the sound card pulls the 24V directly from the power lead of the knocker coil to create its lower voltage requirements. If the knocker coil is ---smurfing--- up, then it could have easily wiped out the regulator circuit on the sound card, I think. The schematic shows the 24V coming in to a Zener diode, then hitting the scorched 500ufd filter cap, then a larger resistor.

I guess my question is about the coil. Can a locked on coil still be in the "deengergized" position? Can a coil showing 12ohms still be a bad coil? I am kind of stumped in this respect.

[D_Zoot]

Can a coil showing 12ohms still be a bad coil? I am kind of stumped in this respect.

Yes,  shorted windings within the coil may not change the resistance much, but will have a drastic impact on current.   

The curious bit is that you mentioned the coil was firing sporadically, do you mean that the coil was firing at random times?   I'd suspect here some manner of problem in the circuits prior to the driver transistor.  Sounds like the driver control circuit has an issue, perhaps holding the driver transistor on, at least partially, causing constant current flow in the coil circuit and overheating the coil and transistor.

Remember, transistors aren't simply full on-full off devices,  but rather amplifiers, so if there is a small amount of current flow at the transistor base, the transistor will be be conducting something.

Hope this makes sense.

D

[shardian]

I understand what you mean. The knocker seemed to fire a few times after I started the first game and hit a switch or two, then it didn't fire again. I don't have a memory battery pack on the game, so it may have fired because of high score reasons (there is a dip switch setting for 3 credits on beating high score.
IIRC, it fired three times in succession, then once more after 3 or 4 seconds. All four strikes sounded pretty weak.

This would lead me to believe the CPU is in fact sending the proper signals. I'll go ahead and pull the coil. I am thinking it is bad.

[shardian]

Ummm, I just had an accident, and I'm not really sure why or how.

I had the playfield glass setting to the side, and just now picked it up like I have many times before to put it back in the machine. Without hitting it on anything, twisting it funny, or even breathing on it, it just frikkin exploded. Luckily, tempered glass doesn't cut your hands when it goes.

Needless to say, I am a bit pissed off now.

[D_Zoot]

I feel your pain man.... 

Been there, done that....    One of those things that just happens



D

[ChadTower]

Sometimes old pin glass just does that.  Probably had a million weakening scratches you couldn't see.  It's old, worn, and you tweaked it in just the wrong way for that piece of glass.  Be damn glad it didn't happen putting it back in the game - then you'd be picking a billion bits of glass off of your playfield.  That is never fun.

[shardian]

I'd much rather have all the pieces in the game than strewn into every nook and cranny of my garage. It went everywhere when it exploded.

[ChadTower]

Fair enough... but it also scratches the eff out of your playfield and everything on it.

[Wade]

Ummm, I just had an accident, and I'm not really sure why or how.

I had the playfield glass setting to the side, and just now picked it up like I have many times before to put it back in the machine. Without hitting it on anything, twisting it funny, or even breathing on it, it just frikkin exploded. Luckily, tempered glass doesn't cut your hands when it goes.

Needless to say, I am a bit pissed off now.

Well, aside from the mess, you're in luck.  I have 3 or 4 spare pinball glasses I haven't been sure what to do with.  You can take one, or even 2 so you'll have a spare.  None of them are horrible but they all have scratches.  It's free anyway.

Wade

[shardian]

Ummm, I just had an accident, and I'm not really sure why or how.

I had the playfield glass setting to the side, and just now picked it up like I have many times before to put it back in the machine. Without hitting it on anything, twisting it funny, or even breathing on it, it just frikkin exploded. Luckily, tempered glass doesn't cut your hands when it goes.

Needless to say, I am a bit pissed off now.

Well, aside from the mess, you're in luck.  I have 3 or 4 spare pinball glasses I haven't been sure what to do with.  You can take one, or even 2 so you'll have a spare.  None of them are horrible but they all have scratches.  It's free anyway.

Wade

You rule!

As a side note, you should take pictures of your parts room. I think most here would be more jealous of that than your actual game room.

[Wade]

You mean the junk room??  Nothing there to be jealous of.  Unless, of course, you value broken stuff and old beat up parts.

Wade

[shardian]

Small update:

I removed the half-circle mylars protectors in front of the slingshots last night. They came up pretty easy. The glue is a pain in the butt to remove. Overall though, it was a good idea. It already looks much better.

[shardian]

I finally got back to this last night. First off, Bay Area Amusements absolutely KICKS ASS! I got my stuff in 2 days from California, they were ridiculously cheap on parts and shipping, and they gave me some Jelly Beans. 

Anyways, the two main issues I had were a sticking flipper and no displays. I now have working flippers and ALL working displays. I cut the leads to the fried knocker coil to try and resolve my sound issue. The sound worked for a game, then cut out again. I'll have to figure that one out still. Nevertheless, the game works!!

(Add pictures soon)

[shardian]

Can someone report this thread to a mod to be moved to the pinball forum please?

[Ginsu Victim]

Can someone report this thread to a mod to be moved to the pinball forum please?

(POOF! MAGIC!)

[shardian]

Some pics. Click the thumbnails for the big photos.

[BUCKETHEAD]

stopped in Radioshack to see if there were any parts I could pick up now that I could put to immediate use... Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! They don't have crap.

RADIO SHACK SUCKS !  They never have anything! 

[shardian]

We've been playing the pin every night since it was fixed. My wife is actually encouraging me to go ahead and restore the playfield. She even made a trip to the craft store to pick out acrylic paints for touch-ups. I figure I'll leave it on the market for 2 weeks, and if it doesn't sell I will go ahead and shop it out.

Have I mentioned that my wife rules? 

[shardian]

I finally took the time to 'decode' the switch matrix last night. As I've discussed earlier, only 2 of the 4 top rollovers work, and that limits several other playfield features. They were the only switches I thought weren't functioning. Well it turns out that the "C" rollovers are actually the same switch input. The other rollovers are on the same return line, so that couldn't be a problem. The strobe line is where things get interesting. The shared strobe switches are a red drop target, a white drop target, and a rollover button. Since the sound hardly ever works and I get mechanical feedback when scoring a target, I've never really noticed if these other switches scored or not. It was too late to test out last night when I learned this, but I can pretty much guarantee that they will not score. This means I just need to check the pin and trace the wire from one CPU connector to find the problem.

Pins may be a royal PITA sometimes, but the feeling of accomplishment when solving a problem is very addictive. 

[shardian]

Ok, I have an electronics question for the Guru's.

The strobe line is definitely the culprit. I continuity tested everything, and it is good all the way thru the cpu pin. The way the sys1  is wired is that all switches run to a diode bank on the bottom of the playfield. All the diodes for each return then tie together and run 1 wire to the cpu connector. I was really hoping I would find a break in continuity. Since I didn't I am stuck.

The only other possibilities are the diodes or the cpu board. Could a bad diode cause the whole row to stop responding? Wouldn't it read as a stuck switch?

If that is not the culprit, then I am left with the cpu board. There is a 7404 chip that the switch matrix feeds thru that can go bad. Can a bad 7404 chip result in a single strobe going bad?? I have a probe and am willing to go thru the hassle of using it, but I am just curious if a single dead strobe line would be caused by the chip.

[shardian]

Well in that case I will clip/check all the diodes on that line tonight. IIRC, in a jamb you can use a 1n4004 to replace those, right?

[shardian]

Good news and bad news.

The good news is that my probe definitely shows the problem is that strobe 0 is not functional on the 7404 controlling chip. The bad news is that neither input for the strobe is flashing - that means one of the spider chips are bad. I misinterpreted the results to think the 7404 was bad and I was home free. I wasted over an hour scavenging another 7404 from a dead board, and almost finished desoldering the 'dead' chip before the reality dawned on me.

All I can say is MOTHER ---smurf---!!!!ELEVENTY1

At least the board is 98% functional though. I tried my second bench booting board and there is something wrong with it. It boots in the game to 000000 displays at the proper time, but does not fire the solenoids. It the flashes a 't' in each display every few seconds after that - I can't coin up or start a game. I haven't read about that, any ideas jim. At least the z8 7404 was working...

[ChadTower]

Could it be a diode that shorts under current but reads just fine with a DMM?  I've seen those a couple of times.  I was told it's the final stage before true failure - the PN junction just can't handle current but the tiny flow that the DMM puts out doesn't cause an issue.  IIRC wear failure results in a short and overvoltage backwards causes an open but some diodes will go into a harder to diagnose intermittent state like a leaky transistor (which, of course, is just a couple diodes anyway).

[shardian]

I pulled the board and booted it on the bench. Used my pocket scope to read the inputs of the suspect chip. Each strobe line is represented by 2 pins - an input and an output. The spider chip represents the input side. If everything is normal, both pins are pulsing. If  the input pulses but no output, the TTL is bad. If neither pin of a matrix row pulses, no soup for you! In short, diodes had nothing to do with it.

I did go ahead and finish putting in the replacement chip and attached the battery pack. When I first turned the game back on, it was acting very weird! All kinds of stuff was acting funny. After a while, I realized the problem: I had switched out the game prom to the other board, and currently had a Pinball pool prom in the 'working board'. I rectified that problem and got back to mostly working condition. I supposed it is the addition of the battery pack, but the game does act up a bit more now. Pushing the start button too many times puts the game into service mode - as in the start button functions as the service button. The service button does nothing.


In the end, I now know that everything on the cabinet works except for the main board. I will keep an eye out for a tested 100% CPU, or just ask Santa for a repro cpu. I have played this game enough to think that I would like keeping it around for a while. I do like the playfield for the most part, and everyone who played it at the party yesterday loved it. At this point I just have to see it thru as a restored machine.

[shardian]

On a whim, I decided to start tearing the playfield down last night. It is a pretty straightforward process. My 18 month old girl took a keen interest, and 'helped' me a bit. I thought it was very cute until she started losing posts when I was looking away. 

Anyways, most of the metal posts are really nasty, with what I assume is crusty wax/cleaner. The plastics are all warped from the lamps. Good news though is that all posts are present and in good condition. The only thing cosmetically I really need is a set of lane guides for the top rollovers. I can live with that.

Anyone know of a good way to remove the top part of Gottlieb pop bumpers?

[shardian]

Heh, it pays to work with a bunch of hardcore hunters. I am going to be able to borrow a vibrating tumbler to polish all of my small metal parts over the weekend. 

[shardian]

Currently I'm tumbling small batches of hardware. My opinion so far of the tumbling method is 'meh'. Things that looked good to start with look a little better, and things that looked like ---Cleveland steamer--- are now clean at least. It doesn't work miracles on anything that has lost its plating, so I guess I will eventually replace my shooter assembly. The biggest plus to using a tumbler is that there is no work involved. You just dump it in, then sift it out. Picking a few chunks of media out of screw heads is far less work than hand cleaning/polishing every post/screw/small hardware.

I did a test run on cleaning white plastic posts, and it is not easy/not good results. Is there a simple, fast method to brightening these things up with Novus?

I also cleaned the plastics in prep to flatten them. Everything I read says to use windex. I instead went with Mean Green. That stuff is a kick-ass cleaner! Other than being warped, the plastics look brand new. The heat browning just melted off the back side, and the fronts looked shiny and polished.

Another poll question: Have any of you all flattened plastics? If so, what method did you use? I am leaning towards either the heat gun, or holding them over a camping stove.

[ChadTower]

I did a test run on cleaning white plastic posts, and it is not easy/not good results. Is there a simple, fast method to brightening these things up with Novus?

Depends exactly which posts you mean but in my experience a lot of the white plastic parts have gone the way of the SNES.

[shardian]

Basic faceted white post.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, if your issue is that the plastic has changed color, just replace them.  White plastic does that over time and it's not reversible.

[shardian]

Well they are now 'off white'. Honestly, I think I'll just stick with off-white if it comes down to it. All the posts are accounted for and in good condition, so it really isn't worth changing them all out for bright white. They would just stand out awkwardly then I think.

But if you say I can't buff them to brighten them, I'll just throw them in the dish washer to simplify things.

[ChadTower]

Well they are now 'off white'. Honestly, I think I'll just stick with off-white if it comes down to it. All the posts are accounted for and in good condition, so it really isn't worth changing them all out for bright white. They would just stand out awkwardly then I think.

But if you say I can't buff them to brighten them, I'll just throw them in the dish washer to simplify things.

That's what I would do too.  If it's not surface dirt you're not going to get them white again.  Wait until you find your real keeper pins to go that far with.

[shardian]

The only new cosmetic parts I plan on getting are pop bumper caps. One of them broke when I tried to take it off. That thing was pretty damn brittle. I have to replace both because replacing only one would make the other look like crap.

[ChadTower]

Bolting brand new vibrant parts onto a 30 year old game looks hideous.  You should try to freshen up the old parts as much as possible and stick with those.

It can look out of place.  I like it in fully restored games, though.

[shardian]

The playfield is getting a full restore, but the cabinet is not. I'll clean the exterior, but I'm not repainting a perfectly good cabinet with very minor wear.

[shardian]

Used Naptha for the first time this weekend. That stuff smells like ass and really doesn't work very well. I ended up switching to Mean Green to clean the playfield. It works MUCH better, smells MUCH better, and even added shine to the playfield. As far as I can tell, there is no penetration to the playfield (swelling), and I get the felling that aspect is a bit over-rated.

Other than that, I am using Magic Eraser and Alcohol to give the machine a once over. It is much more effective at removing old wax than naptha, plus it saves me step by polishing out the ball swirls.

I did run into one issue though with Mean Green. I was cleaning the shooter gauge, but noticed the Mean Green was removing the gauge ink (not the white base color). I switched to a less aggressive cleaner and the same  thing happened. The graphics are all still there, they just appear faded a bit now. I clear coated it once clean, so it shouldn't be a problem again. My main worry is the apron. It has the same style screened inks. I will start with soap/water and see if that does good enough before clear coating it too. Anyone else have experience with this?

[ChadTower]

plus it saves me step by polishing out the ball swirls.

Are you going to clear this one?  I'm not a big fan of using ME on a playfield that isn't going to get sealed off somehow.  It only makes the problem worse in the long term.

[polaris]

shardian
not sure what you mean by alcohol but have you tried this stuff

iso propyl alcohol

works well for cleaning stuff but i have no pin experience with it

chad?

[shardian]

Leave the apron alone.  They can't be cleaned with anything.

Trust me on this one.

Not even soap and water? There is some corrosion/dirt that really needs to be cleaned up on it. I guess I could very carefully spot clean it...

Even with the faded graphics, the shooter gauge looks 10x better.

[shardian]

Okay, it is time for some pictures. First up, some 'before' pictures.



As you can see, it is just overall grimy and nasty, with plenty of ball swirl and stress cracking. It did look worse before, but a few months ago I did use a magic eraser and cleaners on it in a few areas.

[shardian]

These photos are after cleaning, magic eraser, and Novus 2 buffing. As you can see, some areas have major wear. The white plastic areas I can only do so much with. I suppose I could work them over again with the magic eraser, but the return wouldn't be worth it.



I also have several wear spots in the non painted wood areas. I want to build those back up with llaquer before clear coating. There is alot of minor wear spots, but the top pop bumper is the worst area.

[ChadTower]

Make sure you look into possible reactions between lacquer and whatever clear you use... RGP has too many horror stories about that to count.

[Wade]

That looks a heck of a lot better already!  The wear is not that bad.  I don't suppose there's anything you can really do about the discoloration/cracking in the white areas, unless you wanted to go crazy with it and repaint those areas entirely.  (I wouldn't do it.)  That kind of cracking is pretty typical of older pins.  It's something that 90's pins really had an advantage over the older pins.  The automotive clear coats just hold up SO much better, fading and discoloration is rare, as is cracking.  On the other hand the ball is travelling twice as fast and smashing into things much harder, too, so it's all a tradeoff.

I'm surprised by how good that playfield looks already so I might be tempted to not even touch it up.  (Who am I kidding?) Truthfully, I find touchup one of the easiest and quickest ways to improve a pin.  I use Testors though, which is different than what most people seem to use.

Wade

[shardian]

I'll be going the acrylic route. I bought several shades for each color to come up with good matches. I am still torn as to spraying or brushing the clear on. The more I think about it, the more I think I should brush. Some of the inserts aren't true level, and brushing would probably even that up with thicker coats than spraying.

[Wade]

I tried acrylics for touchup, but I thought they were sucktastic.  They just don't cover very well, they change color when they dry, and they don't seem to dry as smooth or stroke-free as Testors.  I'd rather match the color once and be done with it.  I think the real reason many people use acrylic is because you can wipe it off and try again if it looks bad.  With a playfield that already has a clearcoat on it, this would be even easier.  So using acrylics seems less risky.  Anyway, a lot of people use acrylics and are happy with them, it just hasn't worked for me.

Are you planning to clearcoat the whole thing or just the touchup areas?  That might affect whether you want to brush or spray.  I have found Polycrylic to be fairly self-leveling when brushed on heavy, but I'm not sure I'd want to brush a whole playfield.  I would probably try to spray it.  The Polycrylic I've used has also been sandable, so it might be possible to block sand it to try to level/smooth it.

Wade

[ChadTower]

I am utterly useless at color matching.  I stay as far from that as I can.

[shardian]

I thought about the Testors enamels, but I don't have much faith in getting a good match with limited color selections. The acrylics were really cheap, so I could get multiple shades of the 4 base colors. As to clearcoating, I'll be doing the whole thing. After magic eraser-ing a whole playfield, brushing on a bit of clear coat should be a walk in the park! 

[Wade]

I thought about the Testors enamels, but I don't have much faith in getting a good match with limited color selections. The acrylics were really cheap, so I could get multiple shades of the 4 base colors. As to clearcoating, I'll be doing the whole thing. After magic eraser-ing a whole playfield, brushing on a bit of clear coat should be a walk in the park! 

Are you going to light sand the whole field?  If coating the whole thing, I think I'd do that.

Wade

[shardian]

Yep. VERY light sanding. I don't know how much more it can take! Also gonna give it a few more wipe=downs with 91% alcohol, just to make sure it is really clean.

[Wade]

Yep. VERY light sanding. I don't know how much more it can take! Also gonna give it a few more wipe=downs with 91% alcohol, just to make sure it is really clean.

So are you going to put a coat or two of clear on it before starting the touchups, so you can wipe them off and re-try if you run into problems or end up with the wrong colors?  Seems like a pretty good idea to me.

Wade

[shardian]

(personally, though, I'd probably leave that Charlie's Angels alone)

You really think so? Why do you say that - because it isn't worth the effort, or because it is only minor wear? The main reason I am going all-out is for the learning aspect. Skipping the touch-ups doesn't teach me anything.

I wasn't planning on clearing before touching up. I'll do all of my color matching( including dry/clear coated test) off of the playfield. I should be able to go right at it without worrying about bad colors. Even if it isn't 100% close, it will be good enough for me.

[shardian]

I did some testing last night, and it appears I have straight from the bottle matches on at least 2 colors. The blue is a dead ringer, the orange and magenta are a bit too dark, and the yellow is probably okay because the PF yellow varies.

I painted several coats onto some scrap pine that had the same color as the playfield wood. I still need to spray my tests with clear to verify my results. I've seen them wet, but the clear will give me a better idea.

I also used a paint marker to touch up all the black insert surrounds. Just doing that really makes the art pop! I did notice that most of the inserts aren't 100% level with the PF, but I really don't care. The way Gottlieb inserts are done makes it really difficult to mess with them. If I feel like it, I'll fill them up with a bit of clear before doing the whole playfield. Probably would cause more problems than it is worth though.

[ChadTower]

Pine isn't a good test - it will absorb way too much of the paint, and in the process, will tweak lighter colors when it mixes with any resin in the wood.  I'd definitely try that again with something a little more similar to playfield wood - maybe a maple scrap or at least a little piece of cabinet grade plywood.

[shardian]

Well maybe I mis-spoke. I am using sanded plywood, which I assumed was made of pine. It looks identical to the stuff the playfield is made of. I'm not using the cheap stuff that you normally get in 2x4 form.

[Wade]

Also, Bill Davis does a thick layer of clear before he does touchups, and it gives his work a '3D' effect because the cracks and such all have clear in them and haven't been hidden by being filled with the touchup.

Are you saying you've seen BD playfields where you could look at an angle and see "under" the touchups?  I know he does heavy coats but I've never seen or heard of this with his playfields.  Practically all the playfield guys coat at least once before doing touchups.

Wade

[Wade]

I did some testing last night, and it appears I have straight from the bottle matches on at least 2 colors. The blue is a dead ringer, the orange and magenta are a bit too dark, and the yellow is probably okay because the PF yellow varies.

I painted several coats onto some scrap pine that had the same color as the playfield wood. I still need to spray my tests with clear to verify my results. I've seen them wet, but the clear will give me a better idea.

I also used a paint marker to touch up all the black insert surrounds. Just doing that really makes the art pop! I did notice that most of the inserts aren't 100% level with the PF, but I really don't care. The way Gottlieb inserts are done makes it really difficult to mess with them. If I feel like it, I'll fill them up with a bit of clear before doing the whole playfield. Probably would cause more problems than it is worth though.

Sounds like it's going pretty well.  Have you considered repainting the white areas?  If you're getting into this level of detail with touchups and clearcoating anyway, I'd be tempted to repaint the solid whites.

Wade

[shardian]

There really isn't a point to painting the white areas again. They are all covered up by plastics, so as long as they are clean and shiny, they will look fine.

[shardian]

Finished all the touch-ups last night. Me and the wife tag-teamed it all. The color matches for yellow, magenta, and orange aren't 'dead ringers', but the time/quality tradeoff for someone who doesn't know what they are doing dictated that it was good enough. No pictures for now, but I'll try to get some up tommorrow.

[shardian]

Here are some pics of the touchups. I decided to completely repaint the upper pop bumper area to make it look more even. It turned out really, really nice. I have been considering also doing the lower pop bumper, but think I'll just live with it. The brush line reducer stuff works wonders with uniformity of the paint. You don't really paint at that point, you just drip the paint on in a uniform way. It dries level, flat, and smooth (After 24-48 hours of course!).

Another thing you will notice is that one of the colors isn't quite right. Well you can thank my wife for that! I kept telling her that adding white would 'whiten' the color too much. She insisted, so we went ahead. It doesn't look as bad in real life as the pictures, but is still pretty noticeable if you look closely. It will darken a bit with clear coat though, so I guess I'll stick with it. Magenta darkened much more than the other colors when clear coated in testing.

[ChadTower]

The brush line reducer stuff works wonders with uniformity of the paint.

What's that?

Looks pretty good.  Nice job.

[shardian]

What's that?

It is a clear product that helps eliminate brush lines, and greatly extends the dry time of the paint. It can be mixed up to 50/50 with acrylic paint without effecting the color. It is pretty much required to use if you don't want uneven globs of paint on your playfield.

[ChadTower]

Poking through michaels.com I see some products called dry time extenders... is that it?

[shardian]

Probably. It is discussed a bit in the Marvin3m EM Restoration Guide.

[shardian]

Well let me tell you - Naptha + a paint pen = DISASTER! I started to give the playfield a quick wipedown before starting the clear, and the naptha dissolved the black paint! It smeared all over the place! I was able to recover, and get rid of most of it. Some black got into surface cracks, but it is not too noticeable.

So far, I put down 2 coats of polycrylic. The 1st coat was very thin. I sanded it down with a fine grit foam pad, and laid down a shiny 2nd coat. I am not a fan of the way polycrylic goes on. I have used the standard poly, and the polycrylic is much more 'aerosol-y', for lackof a better term. Another issue I encountered was that the low spots near the flippers that were down to bare wood were substantially sunken compared to the rest of the playfield. I sprayed some clear into a lid and dabbed all the low spots full. I'll let this coat dry for 2 days before sanding and doing it again.

Oh, and one last issue. I left the touch-ups as-is. Remember the hot pink non-matching magenta? Well I also mentioned before that the Magenta reacted to the clear much more than the other colors. It reacted so much, that now it is substantially darker than the original magenta. I'll live with it...

Pictures to come tommorrow.

[shardian]

Clearcoat pictures:

 

[ChadTower]

Good start... I definitely suggest next time just using Novus for that last wipedown before spraying the clear.  I need to get better at spraying on flat stuff like that myself.  I never seem to get optimal results.

[shardian]

I can officially say that there is absolutely no reason to use Naptha. The stuff is absolutely worthless! 91% alcohol works just as well, and is much safer. You don't even have to use gloves with alcohol.

Another note for anyone considering doing this: Invest in tack cloth. The usefulness of this stuff is way understated. After sanding, a tack cloth will remove 100% of all dust on the playfield without any cleaners or other wipe down.

[ChadTower]

I usually just use air for that.

[shardian]

I usually just use air for that.

Yeah, that way the dust can settle right back down on your freshly laid clear...

Tack cloth = no airborne dust

[shardian]

Yeah I guess it your fault.  

I should have thought twice though, because alcohol also wipes off the paint pen. I learned that when taking a q-tip to the star rollovers.

The magenta is staying as-is. The way that color changes with clear, there is no way I will ever match it up properly. Even though I added a ton of white, its final color was almost the same as straight from the bottle magenta! It looks 'good enough' for an old game. I just want to finish it up and get it back together.

[shardian]

Applied another thick coat of Polycrylic last night. I wasn't entirely happy with the way the clear 'touchups' turned out, but think by the time I put 1 or 2 more coats on, it should work out okay. I doubt I will get a 100% level surface from all of the bare wood areas, but it will be good enough. The inserts still aren't going to level either. I'll wait 48 hours before messing with this coat.

[Wade]

For some reason I thought you weren't using spray cans.  I used polycrylic through my spray gun and put it on REALLY thick.  (This was on my Moon Patrol after stenciling.)  It turned out very smooth and hard.

I'm going to have to invest in a HVLP spray gun though after seeing Spyridon's recent paint results.  Seems like he had little overspray.  I seldom use my gun because the overspray is killer.

Wade

[shardian]

I had considered brushing, but the ease of spraying won out. I am using a cheap spray can handle thing, which makes the job really easy.

I have a HVLP spray gun that I have never used. Some day I'll get around to using it.

[shardian]

Another thing you need to do, and you didn't do in advance (because I didn't do it either) is flip over the playfield and put some water thin super glue on the inserts at their seam against the wood.  You don't want the inserts shifting after you've cleared the PF.  Do this after it's cured, though.

Can't do that on this pin. They did not use thru-holes for the inserts. There is a hole on the bottom, but it is smaller than the actual insert. There is no way to hit the seam without taking the insert out from the top. It makes me wonder if the inserts were ever level. If they are sitting on a ledge, then it may have just been a manufacturing innaccuracy.

[shardian]

As to leveling the inserts, I think 2 more thick coats with adequate sanding in between should get them to 'good enough' status. I have seen improvements with each layer. I was not happy at all with the way the previous clear patches went. I simply couldn't stand to see that on every insert. Besides, this machine will never be played enough to wear down thru all that clearcoat, being it will never see high traffic route abuse again.

[ChadTower]

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/b0b00c668ec7e46f#

Charlie's Angels partout.

[shardian]

I've been letting this sit for a while for curing purposes. The 2 coats were pretty darn heavy, and I think they need some more time before putting on another heavy coat. I should let you know Jim that I have decided to go ahead and build up all the inserts.

I've also been watching Tim Arnolds System 1 supershow off and on. He has shown a few neat modifications that I may implement.

[shardian]

I have let the playfield sit for several days before sanding, and still got very minor rolling on the sandpaper when sanding down the playfield with a block. It was minor though, so I didn't get any tearing. I also filled all the inserts with poly. I got a little impatient this morning before work and tried to sand one down. I tore a chunk of the insert clear off almost immediately. Patience is a virtue with this crap. I think the main problem is that the weather is finally changing and it is getting cold (40-50 degrees) at night. My dry times are gonna have to get much longer I suppose.

[shardian]

I also won 6 more CPU boards off of ebay last night. It was a whim purchase of course, but they all appear to have chips intact and were less than $10 a board shipped. Fingers are crossed that I get a few good boards out of the deal. It might end up being a profitable venture.

[shardian]

Okay, I have almost all the inserts smooth and level. There are a few that have given me fits, and still have a slight lip. I'll give them another go once the 4th coat of clear dries for a week.

A problem I encountered with the 4th coat was tiny air bubbles in the finish. I never saw them in previous coats, but I had quite a few this time. I figured they would 'pop' after a few minutes, but most did not. I figure I can address these with a stick pin, then spray a bit more when spraying the final coat? I wasn't too concerned this time since I still have another thick coat to go. I still do not like the way polycrylic sprays on. If I had a do-over, I would have used standard polyurethane since it sprays heavier.

[shardian]

Oh, I know. I spray really, really thick. I use the light glare to tell when a pass is 100% doused. Just looking straight down doesn't tell you anything - you have to look at an angle to see the reflections to judge full coverage. I still got those pinhead size bubbles here and there though.

[shardian]

Sand, then tack cloth, then alcohol with lint free rag, then Naptha right before spraying.

[shardian]

Well, the last coat of insert clear has all the inserts more or less level. I had to adjust the level of my playfield, because I think the slight angle threw off previous leveling attempts. Sanding those inserts down is a real ---smurfette---.

Now I just have to wait for one more warm day for the 5th and final coat of clear.

[shardian]

5th coat is on and dry. I took the playfield down off its temp risers and locked it down in the cab so it won't warp. I'll give it 2 weeks or so before sanding and polishing. No pics, because there really isn't anything new to show.

[shardian]

Well it's been a month, and I think that is more than enough time to cure. See, I CAN be patient!

Anyways, I went to town with 600 grit last night. After 3 passes, the finish still has lots of pinhole type spots. Will wet sanding help with this any, or should I just do a few more passes with 600, the a few with 1000?

I also picked up a 6" buffer with some rubbing/polishing compounds. I tried out some Novus on an inconspicuous area and it doesn't work very well. Once I get the pinholes mostly taken care of, I will hit it good with the buffing wheel. I don't think I;m gonna end up with a professional mirror finish though. 

[shardian]

Well I did a bit more online research and it appears that 1000 grit then the buffer/rubbing compound should give me a decent finish. The Space Shuttle resto guy did almost the same thing as I am planning. I wish I didn't have to go to the in-laws for Turkey Day. That will kill my work time on this. I would like to knock most of it out this weekend.

[shardian]

I did plenty more 600 grit sanding and got it 'good enough'. I've been experimenting with the buffer and the compounds. It appears that a heavy pass with rubbing compound and a light pass of polishing compound does very nicely. Follow that up with Novus 2 and it is SUPER slick. I only did half the table, so I need to get back out there and do the top half.

I also need to pick up some paste wax as a finisher. I'm really torn whether I should even bother with the wax. I have heard that it is not necessary if you get a mirror slick finish. Others say go ahead.

[shardian]

Now that my garage is a gameroom, I am getting back on this long, drawn out project. Last time I messed with it, I covered the playfield with a towel and set all the 'baggies' on the towel. When I cleaned it off a few weeks ago, I was pissed to find that the towel left  an indented pattern in a few areas. I have serious doubts about the long term durability of water based Polycrlyic!! This thing cured for well over a month initially, and cured an additional month or so before I ever put a towel on it.

Most of it buffed out with polishing compound and the buffing wheel. I don't want to polish anymore though, because I am afraid of taking off any more of the clearcoat. I will go ahead and wax, which is why I haven't started reassembly yet. (Wade is saving me cash-ola by letting me use his wax...if he ever gets it to me.)

I flattened the plastics last week and they look real sharp. The oven method works, but I had to go with 300 degrees to get the plastics to droop.

I also broke down and ordered a Pascal Pi-1 board! My hope is to be reassembled before it gets here from France. I have a whole box full of possible good untested CPU boards, but my test bench power supply crapped out when I tried to test them. I will eventually test them and sell them on ebay to further recoup the cost of the pi-1. Maybe even turn a good profit if enough test out working. 

[shardian]

Playfield is thoroughly waxed up, pop bumper assemblies all shiny, and all metals polished. Now I suppose I have no more excuses to keep me from reassembly.

A note on polishing metal though...it sucks! I tried multiple cleaners/polishes on the stainless stuff. The ball trough parts were very dirty and dull. I started with a basic cleaning, then Bar Keeper's Friend, then Novus. No matter how much Novus I used, the rag still turned instantly black.

On the next piece I used Bleche White initially, then scrubbed, then started the same process. It didn't go much better.

Finally, I went with what I should have used in the first place - Eagle One Wadding metal polish. Rub the hell out of it with a small piece, then rinse/scrub with terry cloth  = smooth, shiny finish. A second pass yielded a more mirror finish. I'm sure if I did 4 passes or so on each piece, I would have been using them as a mirror to shave. Alas, that kind of perfection is a waste of effort on this specific machine.

So use this as a lesson, young Padawan learners: Go straight to the Eagle One Wadding to polish metal pieces.

[shardian]

A question for the peanut gallery:

The drop targets need to be redone. They originally had an explosion looking graphic. The red 5-bank had silver ink, and the white 3-bank had green paint. I brought a target to work today to scan and make stickers or stencils, then noticed the image was stamped and recessed. Interesting...

Anyways, as a test I filled in the recess with permanent black ink. I'm considering being lazy and just doing black. What would you do:

1. Go ahead and make stickers
2. fill them in black and be done
3. Hunt down fine tipped paint markers that match original

[Cyberflexx]

That thing really does look NICE.. It does look better in person.. You did an AWESOME job on it..   

[shardian]

That thing really does look NICE.. It does look better in person.. You did an AWESOME job on it..   

Thanks! I have stared for so long at all the flaws, that it is hard for me to appreciate the overall improvements.

[shardian]

I was just gonna post some notes, but I bet you all are getting sick of seeing my post bumped with out pics. Am I right?

It was a busy weekend with the family, but I did get the drop targets done. The silver paint was a very close match, and went on easy. The metallic green paint went on translucent, and I had to cake it on to make it opaque. This also caused the paint to be darker than I would have liked. I don't recommend using the glittery metallic paints - they are a pain to work with.

The original image created a depression on the plastic, so I had a pretty good built in template on each target. One white target wasn't original, so I used my wife's wax fabric pattern transfer paper to put on a light colored boundary. It worked well.

As you can see, I am about 75% finished. It takes a while when only working 5-10 minutes a day. 

[shardian]

No responses all day? Damn that's depressing...I suppose I'll have to do some actual work while at work then.

[pinballwizard79]

That clear is pretty, I hope to eventually do that on my Time Fantasy..............hmmmm, since you did so well I will just send it to you 

It looks like you did a total restore, good job man!

[shardian]

That clear is pretty, I hope to eventually do that on my Time Fantasy..............hmmmm, since you did so well I will just send it to you 

It looks like you did a total restore, good job man!

Eh, if I can do it then anyone can do it. If you wanted to send me a stripped board though, I would totally do it. It would be a super simple job without having to mess with underside parts and having it in the cabinet.

[shardian]

Reassembly is DONE! I also have the super cool Pi-1 set up like I want it. Unfortunately, I have a switch issue with the 5 bank drop target. I have absolutely no clue what is wrong. All 5 targets pass the switch test. There is a switch on the back of the assembly that I have NO CLUE what it does. Can someone explain this to me? It seems to be set up to stay closed, and there is nothing that opens/closes it. What 'switch' controls the reset coil???

[shardian]

I figured this one out finally. The problem was a loose fuse holder. This new cpu board rocks. It gets the wife stamp of approval.

[Wade]

It's looking good!!  So show us some pics of it all assembled and lit up too.

Wade

[shardian]

Maybe tonight I will get it cleaned up for pics/video. I still have one bonus light that refuses to work. Also plenty of backbox lights to replace, adjust a popbumper, vacuum the playfield, then the glass can go on. I think you all will be impressed with the video, and all of the cool things the Pi-1 can do.

[Cyberflexx]

Yeah.. show us your goods..

I'm still working on my BuckRogers.  says I have a switch stuck but cant find it..

[shardian]

Yeah.. show us your goods..

I'm still working on my BuckRogers.  says I have a switch stuck but cant find it..

Which stuck switch? It tells you on the displays what it is.

[shardian]

Video of the 'Wizard mode' Pi-1 modified gameplay. The original light scheme was very boring. Nothing flashed, no attract mode, no flashing events, etc. The displays were also very boring - just showing scores. This game was for all intents and purposes an EM that simply replaced the relay banks and reels with a pc brain, but acted exactly the same.

With a Pi-1, the game behaves more like a CPU controlled game should of that era. Flashing waves of lights all over the place, satisfying light events when you get a skill shot (also new), and the displays do all sorts of scrolling messages.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCFkYNfpUHo[/youtube]

[pinballwizard79]

Damn, that turned out well.

Now onto the pics!!!