Author Topic: I finally got a pin...RESTORED AND LOVING IT. (Read 62583 times)

ChadTower · « **Reply #80 on:** September 17, 2007, 09:59:53 am »

Can't say I have one... I should buy one, though, I have a bunch of vids that need this treatment as well.

shardian · « **Reply #81 on:** September 17, 2007, 10:52:47 am »

Well I just talked with the guy at pinball resource, and he says the extractor tool is a piece of junk that breaks very easily. He uses a jewelers screwdriver. Coincidentally, I have the same set he uses at home, so I will try that out. He does have the crimper tool for $21, so I went ahead and got it to speed things up.

ChadTower · « **Reply #82 on:** September 17, 2007, 10:54:47 am »

If you take your Dremel to a slightly bigger, but cheap computer case screw size screwdriver, you can make a stronger tool for doing that. That's what I did. Make the flathead narrower with a cutting wheel... has to be a cheap one, though, so that it's soft enough to cut.

shardian · « **Reply #83 on:** September 20, 2007, 06:42:17 am »

Got the crimper tool, and let me say - MUCH easier. THe pins are still a ---smurfette--- to get out though. All I can think is it must be because of the bad shape they are in. The spare boards look to be in fairly good shape. Barely any acid damage at all. One of the boards has had two chips scavenged, but they were scavenged cleanly and I can just grab them off of my inoperable boad. If one of them works, then I got my moneys worth.

shardian · « **Reply #84 on:** September 22, 2007, 01:25:00 am »

WHEW! Pinning is done! There were a few harnesses, such as the display ones that were in excellent condition, so I decided not to repin them. Currently, I am piecing together a decent MPU. Both of the ones I got off of ebay are in excellent cosmetic shape, no acid damage. However, each of them were missing a chip or two. That has me worried a bit, but they were common chips so I will tell myself someone scavenged the chips for a newer game since the system1's weren't in use anymore. Either way, I am using the best looking board and stealing the one missing chip from the other. I will fire this badboy up tommorrow and see what happens.
Wish me luck!

shardian · « **Reply #85 on:** September 22, 2007, 02:23:53 am »

Arghh. I have everything back together, ready to fire up but it is frikkin 2am. I want to apply power so bad right now, but the pin is directly below my sleeping wife. She'd understand if it worked and I played a game, right?

Ah, well I guess I'll try to sleep...

shardian · « **Reply #86 on:** September 22, 2007, 01:19:37 pm »

Ok, I need to enlist the help of a system 1 guru. It is acting in a way that isn't really described in the manuals.
When powered on, the score displays never come on. Upon first startup, the ball/credit display was lit up though. And when I hit the power switch, the p2 and p4 displays did light up briefly, so they are seeing power. The tilt lamp is on, and after a few seconds, the game over lamp starts flashing. No playfield lights on, which tends to say the tilt relay is kicking I think. Anyways, I powered down, did the slam tilt bypass and added the round modifications. After the mods, same thing, but now the ball/credit display does not light up.
A flashing game over light is not discussed anywhere that I can see. WTF is going on here before I blindly start changing things! If anyone knows someone who works with these systems, please hook me up with a contact (Cue Ken Layton here).

ChadTower · « **Reply #87 on:** September 22, 2007, 01:24:03 pm »

Sounds like you hit a condition where you GOT power to those items and promptly blew something out that stopped the power to those items. That does happen.

StephenH · « **Reply #88 on:** September 23, 2007, 02:02:01 am »

I would try inserting a coin and pressing start to see if the "game over" lamp goes out. I would also try connecting some meters to each voltage from your power supply and see if any that go to the score displays are now dead.

ChadTower · « **Reply #89 on:** September 23, 2007, 10:16:13 am »

Woo, one more game... picked up a decent project Jungle Lord yesterday.

shardian · « **Reply #90 on:** September 23, 2007, 11:05:59 am »

Ok, here is the deal. The display fuse is blowing, I think mainly because of the "on and off" treatment I have been giving the game during testing. Anyways, the reason nothing is working is because the Tilt relay is powering on and staying on as soon as power is applied. I really don't think this is a board issue at all, but yet another crappy wiring issue hidden somewhere in the cabinet wiring. The marvin3m guide briefly mentions a powered on tilt relay, but is not clear in any aspect as to how or why. At one point, the guide says the relay is driver board controlled, which is correct I believe. At another point of mention, the guide says it is cpu controlled (which in respect by a dreaded spider chip). The driver chip and transistor test good, and there are no continuity problems there. I suppose my next step is to trace all of the tilt wiring and see if there is a short.

Kaytrim · « **Reply #91 on:** September 24, 2007, 04:52:38 pm »

I am just shooting in the dark here but maybe the wireing is wrong. As in the hot wire is connected to the NC instead of the NO position on the tilt switch.

Just a thought,
TTFN
Kaytrim

ChadTower · « **Reply #92 on:** September 24, 2007, 05:35:23 pm »

While you're checking that, make sure it's actually supposed to be whichever it is... NC or NO.

shardian · « **Reply #93 on:** September 24, 2007, 06:47:49 pm »

D Zoot over at klov has given me a few good troubleshooting techniques too, but I don't know if I'll get to them tonight. I'll also check if they are wired properly too.

shardian · « **Reply #94 on:** September 25, 2007, 08:20:38 am »

Last night, I pulled the driver board and powered on the machine per D Zoots advice. The tilt relay stayed off, which pretty much rules out wiring problem... I guess. So either the driver board is messing up, or the switch matrix spider chip is bad. GOOOD TIMES...

Wade · « **Reply #95 on:** September 25, 2007, 08:35:02 am »

"The joys of game collecting..."

Kindof like, "the joys of home ownership." Boy I used that phrase a lot the first couple of years in our first house.

Wade

ChadTower · « **Reply #96 on:** September 25, 2007, 09:09:35 am »

I thought you checked the spider chips via that bench method?

shardian · « **Reply #97 on:** September 25, 2007, 11:43:01 am »

Quote from: ChadTower on September 25, 2007, 09:09:35 am

I thought you checked the spider chips via that bench method?

This is a different MPU board. There is zero acid damage on it, and it had a note on it saying it was "good " last time it was put in a box to be forgotten so i figured it might be a better place to start.
And no, I didn't check the spider chips on the other one either. Checking the actual spider chips requires a probe or osciloscope, of which I have neither. You can however check everything else on the board with a DMM with fairly accurate results. I only checked to see if the board was booting on the bench. I need to modify the PS wiring to make it a little easier to test, as you have to flip on the PS while measuring a few points at the same time. Kinda hard to do when you are plugging the PS in to turn it on and off.

shardian · « **Reply #98 on:** September 25, 2007, 12:29:33 pm »

Quote from: Wade on September 25, 2007, 08:35:02 am

"The joys of game collecting..."

Kindof like, "the joys of home ownership." Boy I used that phrase a lot the first couple of years in our first house.

Wade

Hey I thought you were out of town? What I need to do is get you down to my house so you can help me get this thing going.

shardian · « **Reply #99 on:** September 25, 2007, 01:11:43 pm »

transistor question: How can I tell a transistor is shorted. Common sense tells me there would be a black hole in the board, but just want to make sure. All the literature is pointing me to the driver chip and transistor as being the problem, yet both test good and look good.

BTW, you have a spare U45 transistor, Chad? I am assuming it is a common pin transistor.

ChadTower · « **Reply #100 on:** September 25, 2007, 01:17:18 pm »

U45 would just be the board location, wouldn't it? Not the actual transistor model?

I may have one but have no idea off the top of my head. When I have to replace a part I usually buy like ten so that I won't have to order again. I can check when I get home if you want.

shardian · « **Reply #101 on:** September 25, 2007, 01:23:49 pm »

Quote from: ChadTower on September 25, 2007, 01:17:18 pm

U45 would just be the board location, wouldn't it? Not the actual transistor model?

I may have one but have no idea off the top of my head. When I have to replace a part I usually buy like ten so that I won't have to order again. I can check when I get home if you want.

U45 is the transistor type. Mouser did not carry them, so I didn't get any. Plus they all tested good. Apparently those tests aren't always accurate though.

From pinrepair:
MPU-U45 or CEN-U45 transistors for driver board.

ChadTower · « **Reply #102 on:** September 25, 2007, 01:27:26 pm »

A quick google turns up:

Quote

Jim Austin wrote:
> Hi!
> Don't know whether you can help me out but I'm not into electronics enough
> to know if there is any reasonable substitute for a MPS-U45 transistor?
> I work on old pinball machines that used them to drive the firing of the
> coils but are now obsolete!
> Any help would be appreciated.
> Jim

Dial Elec says the following:
MPSU45 TRANS¼NDT2A40V10WHFE25K-150KUNI BD263;BD677

Which I interpret as meaning that it's a NPN Darlington, 2 amp. 40V,
10Watt hFE of 25,000 to 150,000, in Uniwatt package. Subs are BD263 or
BD677. If size is not a problem, then put something larger in its place
such as a TIP120, which can handle more current and power.

Also:

Link

EDIT2:

GPE has them. Product ID: CENU45

shardian · « **Reply #103 on:** September 25, 2007, 01:36:41 pm »

Cool. I need to check if rat shack carries any of those. It's ridiculous to have to pay high shipping for just a few chips and transistors.

ChadTower · « **Reply #104 on:** September 25, 2007, 01:38:17 pm »

That's why I order ten when I need one... and I tend to throw in a bunch of other random things I may need in the future. Email the guy who runs GPE, he can probably throw you together a kit for everything you need for that game. He's a really good guy.

shardian · « **Reply #105 on:** September 25, 2007, 01:52:43 pm »

So GPE specializes in pins, or what? They seem to have everything I would need in a neat and orderly fashion, now don't they? The even have the U45 transistors.
I wish i would have known about this site when I first ordered, it would have made things MUCH easier.

ChadTower · « **Reply #106 on:** September 25, 2007, 01:59:33 pm »

I don't know if it specializes in pins or not but they do cater to pin guys.... the guy who runs it is a pin guy too. They have a lot of rebuilt kits specifically for pins.

shardian · « **Reply #107 on:** September 25, 2007, 02:38:30 pm »

Back to my original question: what does a "shorted transistor" mean? Does it just mean the transistor blows up, or can it just mean the potential difference of the pins is "shorted" and it stays active at all times.

ChadTower · « **Reply #108 on:** September 25, 2007, 02:39:27 pm »

Depends on the circuit, I think, but in this case my intuition is telling me it would cause an always-on condition.

shardian · « **Reply #109 on:** September 25, 2007, 02:45:07 pm »

The willams guide on pinrepair has a whole section detailing transistors and "shorts". Would have been nice if they would have included that info in my repair manual huh?

Anways, yes a shorted transistor means it is internally always on. They also say DMM testing is only 98% accurate, and also that a transistor can test good without load, but be shorted or opened once a load is applied. Either way, I will replace the tilt relay transistor and driver chip and see what happens. While I'm at it, I need to do the blocking diode modification to the driver board.

ChadTower · « **Reply #110 on:** September 25, 2007, 02:46:38 pm »

In a pinch you can take one of the working transistors from another spot and pop it in there to see if that issue goes away.

shardian · « **Reply #111 on:** September 25, 2007, 02:48:30 pm »

I wish I had a backup driver board too. I got outbid on it though.

ChadTower · « **Reply #112 on:** September 25, 2007, 02:49:22 pm »

I mean from the board you're working on... of course, you'll create another issue, but you'll at least be able to see if your suspected transistor is bad.

shardian · « **Reply #113 on:** September 25, 2007, 02:56:05 pm »

It is probably not a good idea to go putting a possibly shorted driver transistor in the place of one that drives a coil that can wreck my MPU. And stealing a U45 on this one is kind of difficult as there is only 4, and they all serve pretty important purposes.

Wade · « **Reply #114 on:** September 25, 2007, 04:21:42 pm »

Quote from: shardian on September 25, 2007, 12:29:33 pm

Quote from: Wade on September 25, 2007, 08:35:02 am
"The joys of game collecting..."

Kindof like, "the joys of home ownership." Boy I used that phrase a lot the first couple of years in our first house.

Wade

Hey I thought you were out of town? What I need to do is get you down to my house so you can help me get this thing going.

I am out of town, fortunately I'm able to reach the internet and even my work PC's while I'm in class. I wouldn't be able to help you with these problems any more than Joe Blow off of the street, though!

Wade

Wade · « **Reply #115 on:** September 25, 2007, 04:23:25 pm »

Quote from: shardian on September 25, 2007, 02:38:30 pm

Back to my original question: what does a "shorted transistor" mean? Does it just mean the transistor blows up, or can it just mean the potential difference of the pins is "shorted" and it stays active at all times.

Sometimes they burn up internally and don't look bad. Had this with a bunch of monitor HOTs.

Wade

shardian · « **Reply #116 on:** September 26, 2007, 11:35:55 am »

I picked up 2 TIP120's from Rat Shack yesterday. I'll install one of them probably tonight and see what happens. That source you quoted, are you sure that is reliable info? Just making sure before I install you know.

ChadTower · « **Reply #117 on:** September 26, 2007, 11:37:33 am »

Can't say for sure, here's the source.

shardian · « **Reply #118 on:** September 26, 2007, 11:52:04 am »

I asked the guru (Ken) if he would verify it.

D_Zoot · « **Reply #119 on:** September 26, 2007, 12:46:52 pm »

shardian,

I'd be surprised if a TIP is a suitable transistor for this application. While the current capability is greater than the MPS-U45, and is fine in that respect, I'd be surprised if the other parameters of the transistor were suitable (gain, base current, etc..) for this application.

The CEN-U45 (direct replacement) is available from a few places, such as MCM electronics. Or, do youself a favor and just order the driver board kit from GPE, you'll have spare transistors on hand for the next time.

Did you verify all of the tilt switches like we were talking about over at Klov? When those transistors fail shorted they almost always test shorted, not just shorting under load. If any one of those tilt switches is closed, or shorted closed, then the CPU and driver board are doing what they are supposed to be doing, energizing the tilt relay.

D


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