Author Topic: I finally got a pin...RESTORED AND LOVING IT. (Read 62493 times)

shardian · « **Reply #120 on:** September 26, 2007, 01:09:15 pm »

Quote from: D_Zoot on September 26, 2007, 12:46:52 pm

shardian,

I'd be surprised if a TIP is a suitable transistor for this application. While the current capability is greater than the MPS-U45, and is fine in that respect, I'd be surprised if the other parameters of the transistor were suitable (gain, base current, etc..) for this application.

The CEN-U45 (direct replacement) is available from a few places, such as MCM electronics. Or, do youself a favor and just order the driver board kit from GPE, you'll have spare transistors on hand for the next time.

Did you verify all of the tilt switches like we were talking about over at Klov? When those transistors fail shorted they almost always test shorted, not just shorting under load. If any one of those tilt switches is closed, or shorted closed, then the CPU and driver board are doing what they are supposed to be doing, energizing the tilt relay.

D

Physically, all of the tilt switches are the way they are supposed to be. I am going to cut the molex connection out of the tilt ground wire this evening, as it has green corrosion on it.
Another note which may or may not matter, When I repinned the bottom driver connector pins, some of the wires showed green corrosion even after I cut back about a half inch to an inch trying to get to clean wire. When I did the repins, I didn't think too much of it. Now though, I think I really need to continuity check the actual wires. Can corrosion eat up the entire length of wire?

ChadTower · « **Reply #121 on:** September 26, 2007, 01:18:11 pm »

With solid core wire it can definitely contribute to a break somewhere inside the insulation.

shardian · « **Reply #122 on:** September 26, 2007, 01:26:24 pm »

Quote from: ChadTower on September 26, 2007, 01:18:11 pm

With solid core wire it can definitely contribute to a break somewhere inside the insulation.

It is stranded core wiring

shardian · « **Reply #123 on:** September 26, 2007, 01:27:56 pm »

Well it looks like I'll be taking the TIP102's back and putting yet another order in at GPE soon. I'm getting sick of buying stuff. Way too much money is going into this thing. Good thing my wife still only considers it a $300 investment.

ChadTower · « **Reply #124 on:** September 26, 2007, 01:36:33 pm »

Once you get the hang of shopping out/fixing a pin you can anticipate most of what you'll need and only make a couple of orders upfront. Makes it a lot easier and cheaper.

shardian · « **Reply #125 on:** October 01, 2007, 04:02:22 pm »

A quick update, as I haven't had but a few minutes the last week or so to mess around. I checked, double checked, and rechecked all of the slam and tilt switches to make sure they are closed/open as they are supposed to be.
I also ran continuity checks on the ground wiring to the tilt switches and the wiring is just fine all the way back to the CPU.

Before I go thru the effort and expense of setting up a more advanced CPU test rig and buy a logic probe, I am going to prep the other CPU I have and put it into the machine and see if it acts the same way again. While still possible, the odds of the machine failing the same way due a cpu failure seems highly unlikely to me.

Oh and if anyone has a logic probe they are willing to let me borrow, that would be awesome. Of course, I would pay shipping both ways.

shardian · « **Reply #126 on:** October 25, 2007, 09:32:28 pm »

Just a very small update. I got a driver board off of ebay. I put it in and you guessed it, the same damned problem is still there. You know, the one that not a single other system 1 owner has apparently EVER had. I can really see why people don't like system1 machines...

The only good thing that came out of the replacement driver board is that the old driver board had a VERY bad burn spot that looked suspect. Secondly, the new driver board is the revised edition that has the built in blocking diodes. I'll hock the old one on ebay to recoup funds.

What I really need is a known good mpu to see if that is the definite problem. Anyone care to lend me one?

I can't stand to even look at this thing any more hardly at this point.

ChadTower · « **Reply #127 on:** October 26, 2007, 10:43:29 am »

Could the issue be a short in the wiring harness? It's worth the ten minutes to check. Maybe take a few jumpers and run your own "harness" to see if it behaves the same way with definitely no shorts.

shardian · « **Reply #128 on:** October 26, 2007, 11:06:48 am »

Quote from: ChadTower on October 26, 2007, 10:43:29 am

Could the issue be a short in the wiring harness? It's worth the ten minutes to check. Maybe take a few jumpers and run your own "harness" to see if it behaves the same way with definitely no shorts.

Oh wait, there was a difference this time - the playfield lights were on. I need to go test this again tonight and check to see if the tilt relay was in fact engaged.

As to wiring, I have done continuity checking on all of the slam and tilt switches. Not sure how to go about checking shorts in the wiring. I've thoroughly inspected all of the switches and connections and not noticed any shorts there. Like I said before, a known working mpu would save me hours and hours of testing.

ChadTower · « **Reply #129 on:** October 26, 2007, 11:11:25 am »

You check shorts in the wiring the same way you would with anything else... find the wires that are next to each other, check the schematic to see if they should be connected, and if they're not check to make sure they are not. I'm not thinking a short in the playfield wiring as much as I am perhaps one in the wiring harness between the mpu and the driver board. Maybe the MPU is working properly but there is a short in the line telling the relay to stay live.

shardian · « **Reply #130 on:** October 26, 2007, 11:43:39 am »

Are you implying I switched wires when repinning good sir? I'll tell you the same thing I tell my boss when he suggests I should check my calculation inputs when a system don't work - My ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- is right.

Seriously though, I have considered that the wiring harness could be wrong. I do need to verify that each point is connected correctly.

shardian · « **Reply #131 on:** October 27, 2007, 11:00:52 am »

I verified this morning that indeed the tilt relay is no longer energizing. The game still will not boot, so the mpu pretty much has to be bad.

ChadTower · « **Reply #132 on:** October 27, 2007, 11:17:08 am »

Well that's one step forward, anyway.

StephenH · « **Reply #133 on:** November 13, 2007, 01:29:03 am »

Here is some info on the System 1 MPU:

http://www.flippers.com/System1RepairMPU.html
http://www.flippers.com/gott_system_1.html
http://www.geocities.com/stevekulpa/gottlieb1_a1a3.htm

shardian · « **Reply #134 on:** November 14, 2007, 10:26:12 am »

heh, check out this pic of a Charlie's Angel boardset I found online.
http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/460792#18621221
It works...so ---smurfing--- unfair!

shardian · « **Reply #135 on:** November 14, 2007, 10:27:51 am »

Anyways, got my probe scope, have mpu parts on order and I'm ready to start repairing boards. Now to find the time to do the work...

Level42 · « **Reply #136 on:** November 14, 2007, 05:28:55 pm »

What CPU is on there ?

ChadTower · « **Reply #137 on:** November 14, 2007, 05:32:06 pm »

Odd coincedence, I was just reading marvin3m's logic probe tutorial and this is exactly the example he gives... testing a CPU address/data lines and shorting reset pin to ground.

Level42 · « **Reply #138 on:** November 14, 2007, 05:48:22 pm »

Yeah, I wish someone had suggested that to me earlier

Anyway, if it's a 6502 or Z80 the reset line is actually active when low, so if you measure a constant low, it's constantly in reset (=freeze). If so, try shorting +5v to the reset pin.....it's pin 40 on the 6502, pin 26 on a Z80.

Chad you have a link to that guide ?
Thanks

Angry_Radish · « **Reply #139 on:** November 14, 2007, 09:39:44 pm »

Quote from: Level42 on November 14, 2007, 05:48:22 pm

Chad you have a link to that guide ?
Thanks

http://www.pinrepair.com/begin/#howprobe

I think this is the one he was referring to.. good stuff on this page!

ChadTower · « **Reply #140 on:** November 15, 2007, 07:52:06 am »

That's it... I've probably read the marvin3m guides 20x by now. Each time I go through them I understand probably 5% more than the previous reading.

shardian · « **Reply #141 on:** November 15, 2007, 08:06:32 am »

Quote from: Angry_Radish on November 14, 2007, 09:39:44 pm

Quote from: Level42 on November 14, 2007, 05:48:22 pm
Chad you have a link to that guide ?
Thanks

http://www.pinrepair.com/begin/#howprobe

I think this is the one he was referring to.. good stuff on this page!

Ahh, I skipped that section originally since I didn't have a probe. Thanks for the reminder.

shardian · « **Reply #142 on:** November 15, 2007, 11:15:23 am »

This could give my new scope a workout. Anyone feel like getting in on the lucrative hobby of fixing/selling system 1 boards?

FYI, you can get $75 to $100 for a tested working board.

Holy Hell!

shardian · « **Reply #143 on:** November 19, 2007, 09:52:12 am »

Hehe, saw this on a Charlie's Angels that is selling on ebay right now. As you can see, the backglass has missing paint on the faces. I am sure that I am not the only one that finds it disturbing.

shardian · « **Reply #144 on:** November 22, 2007, 09:36:38 am »

OK, I am all set up and well into MPU testing.

Board#1 - the board that came with the machine
- Not sure what is going on here, but the LED lights up very briefly on startup, then is dead. Reset goes to +5, probe shows switching where it is supposed to. According to Marvin 3m, if reset is +5, and all the appropriate test points show switching, then the board should be booting. If not, the guide says the board is shot...but with no good explanation.

Board #2
On power up, the LED lights and stays on - which points to slam switch. THe problem is, I have done the slam switch bypass.

I am going to desolder and redo it, just in case. If that don't fix it, then I have no frikkin clue. Any ideas D Zoot?

shardian · « **Reply #145 on:** November 22, 2007, 10:08:55 am »

\

I HAVE PINBALL!!!!!!!!

I resoldered the slam switch bypass, then noticed an empty chip slot. I thought, WTF is that? Realized it was the test jumper and it was empty. I guess I thought it wasn't necessary or something...

Anyways, I grabbed the test jumper from another board and put it in there. Powered on the test station, waited five seconds and there was light!!

I unhooked that bastard as quick as I could and ran out to the garage to put it in. I powered up, waited five seconds, hit the start button and out popped the ball!!!

I played a few games, then the wife came down wondering why I was screaming. She played a few games and now I can have thanksgiving in peace!

Of course, there are the usual issues. I only plugged in p1 display, but the fuse still popped, so no displays. all solenoids work perfectly. flippers are strong, but left flipper sticks a bit. A few rollovers are not connecting, and of course a few lights are out...but not too many.

Oh, and I have to say, the system one Tone sounds do stink. Definitely will put in bells if I keep this.

So, I can now get started cleaning the playfield and adjusting switches. YAY!!

ChadTower · « **Reply #146 on:** November 22, 2007, 11:01:22 am »

Always feels great to get it running again.

Level42 · « **Reply #147 on:** November 22, 2007, 04:40:26 pm »

Cakemeister · « **Reply #148 on:** November 23, 2007, 02:12:16 pm »

StephenH · « **Reply #149 on:** November 23, 2007, 02:54:36 pm »

Next, you need to check:

* Score Display power system for any shorts

*Lights

shardian · « **Reply #150 on:** November 23, 2007, 04:23:49 pm »

Board# 3 : I replaced the parts I scavenged, plus two 7417's that were scavenged before I got it. After doing the slam switch mod, the board boots on the bench. I did a quick and dirty logic test, and everything seems ok. There is one thing that is kind of weird though - after the LED lights up on boot, after about 4 seconds it dims a bit, then after about 1 second it gets bright again. I thought that was kinda odd, and wonder why it is doing that. Never heard of that, and the other board didn't do it as far as I can remember.

Meh, it works and that's all that matters for now. At least I know I have a viable backup board.

I'm done messing with board work. Though I must admit I am sorely tempted to bid on that 30+ lot of system1 mpu boards on ebay now that I have a working machine and I know how easy it is to test them.

Kaytrim · « **Reply #151 on:** November 26, 2007, 04:35:03 pm »

Congrats on getting a working board shardian.

Now the real fun begins.

TTFN

shardian · « **Reply #152 on:** November 26, 2007, 04:40:54 pm »

Quote from: Kaytrim on November 26, 2007, 04:35:03 pm

Congrats on getting a working board shardian. Now the real fun begins.

TTFN

hehe, actually I have now piled some crap up around the pin while I work on the basement. I don't want to turn on the machine since the weather is cold and my garage is not heated. Once the basement living room stuff is back into the basment, I will invest in a heating supply for the garage and get to work on the mechanical aspects.

shardian · « **Reply #153 on:** March 22, 2008, 09:17:13 am »

I've been tinkering again lately with the pin. I pulled the driver board last night, and discovered some problems. First, some background info:

The sound died off last time I messed with it. I had no clue why. I pulled the sound card, and the power caps have scorching near the leads. These sound boards are pretty much never supposed to go bad. I now have the sound card pulled. I'll follow up in a minute

Anyways, I pulled the driver board becaue I knew I had at least one bad lamp driver. I found two bad lamp drivers, then noticed a TIP100 down at the lower right that looked like a dead, bloated fish. It was the knocker coil transistor. I remembered that I had never heard the knocker before, but also noted that this transistor didn't look like that when I originally got the driver board. I replaced it, then went and checked resistance on the knocker coil. It read 12-13 ohms, so I assumed it was good. Anything around 3 or less is a shorted coil.

Thinking everything was kosher, I put the board back in and fired off a few games. Oddly, the knocker coil started firing sporadically. The efforts seemed half-hearted too. It stopped, and I finished testing stuff out. Noticed a ever so slight burning smell too. Anyways, the knocker coil assembly is super hot to the touch, and the newly replaced transistor is super hot too. The coil did not appear to be locked on when I looked at it a few times. Looks like I need to check a few chips on the CPU.

Back to the sound card. It is relevant because the sound card pulls the 24V directly from the power lead of the knocker coil to create its lower voltage requirements. If the knocker coil is ---smurfing--- up, then it could have easily wiped out the regulator circuit on the sound card, I think. The schematic shows the 24V coming in to a Zener diode, then hitting the scorched 500ufd filter cap, then a larger resistor.

I guess my question is about the coil. Can a locked on coil still be in the "deengergized" position? Can a coil showing 12ohms still be a bad coil? I am kind of stumped in this respect.

D_Zoot · « **Reply #154 on:** March 22, 2008, 11:53:37 am »

Quote from: shardian on March 22, 2008, 09:17:13 am

Can a coil showing 12ohms still be a bad coil? I am kind of stumped in this respect.

Yes, shorted windings within the coil may not change the resistance much, but will have a drastic impact on current.

The curious bit is that you mentioned the coil was firing sporadically, do you mean that the coil was firing at random times? I'd suspect here some manner of problem in the circuits prior to the driver transistor. Sounds like the driver control circuit has an issue, perhaps holding the driver transistor on, at least partially, causing constant current flow in the coil circuit and overheating the coil and transistor.

Remember, transistors aren't simply full on-full off devices, but rather amplifiers, so if there is a small amount of current flow at the transistor base, the transistor will be be conducting something.

Hope this makes sense.

D

shardian · « **Reply #155 on:** March 22, 2008, 03:13:24 pm »

I understand what you mean. The knocker seemed to fire a few times after I started the first game and hit a switch or two, then it didn't fire again. I don't have a memory battery pack on the game, so it may have fired because of high score reasons (there is a dip switch setting for 3 credits on beating high score.
IIRC, it fired three times in succession, then once more after 3 or 4 seconds. All four strikes sounded pretty weak.

This would lead me to believe the CPU is in fact sending the proper signals. I'll go ahead and pull the coil. I am thinking it is bad.

shardian · « **Reply #156 on:** March 22, 2008, 03:24:16 pm »

Ummm, I just had an accident, and I'm not really sure why or how.

I had the playfield glass setting to the side, and just now picked it up like I have many times before to put it back in the machine. Without hitting it on anything, twisting it funny, or even breathing on it, it just frikkin exploded. Luckily, tempered glass doesn't cut your hands when it goes.

Needless to say, I am a bit pissed off now.

D_Zoot · « **Reply #157 on:** March 22, 2008, 04:27:41 pm »

I feel your pain man....

Been there, done that.... One of those things that just happens

D

ChadTower · « **Reply #158 on:** March 22, 2008, 04:55:11 pm »

Sometimes old pin glass just does that. Probably had a million weakening scratches you couldn't see. It's old, worn, and you tweaked it in just the wrong way for that piece of glass. Be damn glad it didn't happen putting it back in the game - then you'd be picking a billion bits of glass off of your playfield. That is never fun.

shardian · « **Reply #159 on:** March 22, 2008, 05:43:14 pm »

I'd much rather have all the pieces in the game than strewn into every nook and cranny of my garage. It went everywhere when it exploded.


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