So who is going to be watching the Giants games for the next week?

[CCM]

I remember watching that game.  His arm sure looked like it snapped.  The elbow came halfway back the wrong way.

from wikipedia:

Nolan Ryan's very durable arm finally gave out in Seattle on September 22, 1993, when he tore a ligament, ending his career two starts earlier than planned. Briefly attempting to pitch past the injury, Ryan threw one further pitch after tearing his ligament; with his injured arm, his final pitch was measured at 98 miles per hour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_Ryan

[JackTucky]

I played baseball for nearly 15 years and have coached it another ten.  I know what a pitcher's elbow looks like during delivery.

Chad is superman, really.

=J

[Guaranos]

Did Jose accuse Clemens in his book?

Jose said Clemens was the only guy he knew who never cheated on his wife.  He also said that he never saw Clemens use steroids, and once had him deny it to him personally, but often discussed with him what it could do for a pitcher.  He often heard him make references to B12 shots which was a common code word for steroids.

[Guaranos]

Clemens' problem wasn't form, it was a dead shoulder.  He spent the most of is last two seasons in Boston on the DL.  Pitchers don't regain their fastball in their mid 30s, just like running backs (with mileage) don't get better at 30.

Ryan was a freak and threw until his arm literally snapped on the mound.  That was ugly.

Sorry, you got the wrong person there. Dave Dravecky was the unfortunate soul who had the gruesome arm snap incident.

Ryan did tear a ligament in his final appearance, but the freak threw one more pitch before calling it quits....a 98 mph pitch....at ~46 years old.

Tony Saunders also had his arm snap while pitching - twice.  In his book, Canseco said that Saunders was a heavy steroid user, and was especially bulky when the first snap happened.  I've heard something about steroids affecting your bone density (not sure how true that is), so that might make sense.  Dravecky was a completely different situation, as his arm was riddled with cancer.

[ChadTower]

Steroids don't usualy directly affect bone density, but they do affect the balance between muscle strength and tensile strength of everything else.  The muscles become disproportionately strong and the parts attached to them start to fail.  Ligaments rip, cartilage tears, etc.  In rare cases a bone can break.

[Dervacumen]

You're just willing to endure a higher amount of it than others for reasons that are personal to you.

I guess it's like your disdain of him being fueled by your experience, huh?

Anyway, I refer to him as a jerk because that's the vernacular for Barry Bonds nowadays not because I see him that way.  I don't pay attention to anything other than him trying to hit baseballs.  At the end of the day, I don't really care one way or another.

[ChadTower]

Bonds in the no-steroid era: 

[tommy]

Bonds in the no-steroid era: 

Maybe. That is also him in the end of his career as a tired old player with little to nothing left to offer. I don't think we can say that is from steroids, i don''t think if he were to take steroids now he can be good again in any way.

[DrewKaree]

I don't think we can say that is from steroids

 

Dude admitted to using them.  Whether he wants to fess up to KNOWINGLY using them instead of "I didn't know what was in that cream"....nevermind.  This is another of those "court of public opinion" things you'll never get.

[ChadTower]

Shhh... he admitted in a sealed document that he used them... we're not supposed to know that.

That's why MLB can't suspend him.  It was leaked grand jury testimony that we're not legally entitled to have.

[tommy]

Did you READ any of what i said drew? Being too old is not an effect of drugs.

[ChadTower]

Actually, being floppy and saggy is a direct effect of having been on large amounts of juice and then stopping them all at once... like when they tell you you're going to be tested.

[DrewKaree]

Did you READ any of what i said drew? Being too old is not an effect of drugs.

Did you look at the picture?  Chad just laid it out for you, but take another gander at the picture too.  Now, it's not a full-body shot, but MrC will have to provide us that, and frankly, I don't want what he's selling.

Take a look at his tomato can.  Your head doesn't grow to the proportions his has without....hey, what was one of the side effects of steroids again?  How 'bout the dude's friggen feet someone brought up. 

Here's a better comparison for you:

[tommy]

I don't want to argue if he was on steroids or not, frankly i think he probably was and i do not care. But that's not the point.

 Let me explain another thing to you, when you're younger your frame is not as thick as it is when you get old and fat. How's that?

I can get a pic of anyone from now and 20 years ago and it would look like that if the person was not playing very often and was injured alot, but that is still not to say he did not take drugs.

[shardian]

I don't want to argue if he was on steroids or not, frankly i think he probably was and i do not care. But that's not the point.

 Let me explain another thing to you, when you're younger your frame is not as thick as it is when you get old and fat. How's that?

I can get a pic of anyone from now and 20 years ago and it would look like that if the person was not playing very often and was injured alot, but that is still not to say he did not take drugs.

I believe in Book of Shadows they attach dates to his increase in size of cleat and hat. IIRC, it was pretty much all within the span of 2 years or so.

[ChadTower]

Uh, tommy, your frame doesn't fill out at 33 years old.  It does that at 20.

[tommy]

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2007/06/02/161220.php

[tommy]

What about this guy? What happened there?

[DrewKaree]

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2007/06/02/161220.php

"From 2000 on through the 2004 season Bonds’ impressive musculature and his gaudy home run numbers were all the talk of baseball, as he hit 258 home runs during this span for an average of 52 per season. In the previous 14 seasons Bonds had hit 445 homers, good for a respectable but not spectacular 32 per season."

14 seasons.  32 HR's per season.
4 seasons.  52 HR's per season.

Now his numbers just dropped off like a Neikro knuckler.  All because he got fat.  Thankfully, steroids don't cause such changes in people so we can rule that out.  Just ask Lyle Alzado.

[ChadTower]

What about this guy? What happened there?

Are you saying Tony Gwynn had a couple of years in between where he looked like Triple H?  Barry Bonds did.

[DrewKaree]

What about this guy? What happened there?

Are you saying Tony Gwynn had a couple of years in between where he looked like Triple H?  Barry Bonds did.

One only needs to look at Tony Gwynn throughout the course of his career.  As Shardian pointed out, Bonds' physical changes happened over the course of two years.  There isn't a reasonable person alive that can't see Tony Gwynn's changes occurred over the entire course of his career.

Tommy's attempt to compare the two simply doesn't stand up to a cursory examination as Chad's pointing out.

Tony Gwynn also wasn't EVER known for feats of strength but WAS blessed with sheer consistency, something steroids (and the cycle it causes) isn't known for, nor known to help.  Note the link you gave, tommy, and the stated facts in there.  For 14 years, Bonds was a model of consistency, as was Gwynn.  For 4 years after that, at a point at which people simply don't get magical powers and blow up, Bonds damn near DOUBLED his AVERAGE.

He's not tailing off because he's gotten fat, and it's laughable after looking at the stats he's amassed to suggest so.  He's gotten fat because he's had to go off the 'roids due to hyper-sensitive scrutiny and he simply can't recover/maintain/gain in the manner that the drugs used to allow him, meaning getting off or reducing the 'roid usage is responsible for his tailing off in production, getting injured more often, and lastly, getting fat.

[jbox]

Actually, being floppy and saggy is a direct effect of having been on large amounts of juice and then stopping them all at once...

Yeah, your wife said that was your standard excuse. Zing!!!!! 

[ChadTower]

Hey!  I was never on steroids.  If I were I would have been much bigger.

I wasn't ambitious enough to juice.     That stuff is expensive.

[ChadTower]

I think this guy must have just gotten of steroids too:

[billf]

Well Barry passed Aaron tonight.  I didn't see it happen, but apparently they ran a taped message from Aaron on the stadium board.  Here is what he said:

"It is a great accomplishment which required skill, longevity and determination."

"Throughout the past century, the home run has held a special place in baseball and I have been privileged to hold this record for 33 of those years. I move over now and offer my best wishes to Barry and his family on this historic achievement."

"My hope today, as it was on that April evening in 1974, is that the achievement of this record will inspire others to chase their own dreams."

Aaron is a class act.

[Guaranos]

Bonds is a cheater.  The real record is still 755.

I think Hank Aaron should juice up too, come out of retirement (it's only been 31 years or so), and have a showdown with Bonds for the rest of the season.

[ChadTower]

(Chad sits and waits for someone to say 868).

[Buddabing]

IMO 56 is a much more significant record than 755 was. I don't think there's a drug, amphetamine, steroid, hallucinogen, clear, cream, or whatever, that will help you get hits in 56 consecutive games.

You'd think with the dilution of pitching talent in the major leagues someone would have made a run at 56, but no one has.

I hope A-Rod stays healthy and plays long enough to pass Bonds.

[ChadTower]

I'm not sure why everyone looks at Rodrigeuz like he is so obviously clean.  He played in the steroid era too.

[shardian]

I'm not sure why everyone looks at Rodrigeuz like he is so obviously clean.  He played in the steroid era too.

He has been consistently as good as he is now since he was in High School. You have to remember, he was screwed out of the MVP his ROOKIE year!

[ChadTower]

Doesn't matter, though... there is exactly the same amount of proof that he is clean that people have of most players being dirty in those years.  None.  So he shouldn't be clear of suspicion either.

Plus he's a ---smurfette---.

[Guaranos]

(Chad sits and waits for someone to say 868).

If you're going to count Japan, you might as well count AAA too.  Japanese baseball is good, but any league in which Tuffy Rhodes can be a superstar isn't on the same level as MLB.

[ChadTower]

Japanese baseball now is consistently producing world class players that continue to be all stars when they come here.

[ClubNinja]

Yet another reason why I wish Japanese television was beamed over here.  I think I'd actually watch Japanese baseball from what I've seen of it.

[Guaranos]

Japanese baseball now is consistently producing world class players that continue to be all stars when they come here.

So are AA and AAA.  A few standouts don't prove anything except that it's a good farm system for the MLB.

[shardian]

Yet another reason why I wish Japanese television was beamed over here.  I think I'd actually watch Japanese baseball from what I've seen of it.

Same here. They actually play baseball over there - not homerun derby...which is why the won the Baseball classic. The U.S. is lucky they didn't get knocked out in the first round.