Pledge of Allegiance ruled Unconstitutional

[Daniel270]

Well.. looks like it's finally happened...

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/US/Church___State_Issues

[ChadTower]

I don't believe in it, so you can't do it!

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Why not just take out the "under God" part and be done with it. It was crammed in there during the Cold War and, well, we're no longer at war with the those "Godless commies", but rather a new bunch of pro-God Terrorists.

So, it seems to me, unless we take God out of the pledge, the terrorists will win!



mrC

[quarterback]

I don't believe in it, so you can't do it!

No, it was "I don't believe in it, so you can't make me do it"

a federal court judge ruled today, saying that the pledge

[ChadTower]

So tell the kids who don't want to say under god to not say them.  Or tell them to sit down and say nothing.

The basic result of this guy not wanting to do it is him forcing them to stop everyone from doing it. 

[quarterback]

So tell the kids who don't want to say under god to not say them.

[JB]

Why not just take out the "under God" part and be done with it. It was crammed in there during the Cold War and, well, we're no longer at war with the those "Godless commies", but rather a new bunch of pro-God Terrorists.

So, it seems to me, unless we take God out of the pledge, the terrorists will win!



mrC

Seconded.

[Dartful Dodger]

They might as well take out the "indivisible" part too.

[ChadTower]

No liberty and justice for all here.

[shmokes]

You've got the White House, both houses of congress by fairly healthy margins and a 5-4 majority on the Supreme Court.  One little thing doesn't go your way and it's, "No liberty and justice for all..."

Cry me a river.  Since when did liberty and justice for all mean that half the people get their way 100% of the time?

[JackTucky]

Anyone who spends all this time fighting for something so silly really needs to think about what is important in life.

If someone made me say, "under God", and I didn't believe it, I'd roll my eyes and move on.

What you believe should be what's in your heart, not what your classmates recite every morning.

I think this guy is just some boner looking for attention.

If they made me say, one nation, under hot dogs, it would just make laugh, and hungry.  I don't believe we are united under hot dogs. But they are tasty.

Who cares?

I don't.  Don't care enough about religion to be offended by it.  Don't care enough about athiests to be offended by them.  Just care about being a good dad, husband, and having a good time.  And staying out of jail.  Wish I could avoid taxes.

Art

[Dartful Dodger]

Since when did liberty and justice for all mean that half the people get their way 100% of the time?

The majority of people is more than half.

[shmokes]

Jesus mary, if you're going to strain at gnats I'll rephrase.

Since when did liberty and justice for all mean that the majority of the people get their way 100% of the time?

And JackTucky, if your kids were in a class that said, "One nation under Satan...", or, "One atheist nation," something tells me that you would be singing a different tune.  Try stepping outside of your own shoes sometime.

[ChadTower]

You've got the White House, both houses of congress by fairly healthy margins and a 5-4 majority on the Supreme Court.  One little thing doesn't go your way and it's, "No liberty and justice for all..."

Cry me a river.  Since when did liberty and justice for all mean that half the people get their way 100% of the time?

I have them personally?  Really?  So all of the things I've been asking for have happened?  America has cut foreign aid and taken on an isolationist foreign policy?  We built that giant 15 foot wall across the Mexican border?  Our troops are home from Iraq and Iraq is being left to either create their own nation, from their own initiative, rather than under our thumb?  The money we're saving in foreign aid is being poured into development of new nonpetroleum based energy technologies and distrubition infrastructure?

I must have missed it.

Until all of those things have happened, I don't have an effin thing.

[quarterback]

I think the idea of forcing people to recite any kind of "pledge of allegiance" is ridiculous anyway.

[allroy1975]

Even beyond that, requiring children to make a daily pledge of this kind is pointless. The most it's going to do is drill the words into their skulls and make them even MORE meaningless.  If you want them to appreciate what the USA is all about, then teach them or show them what it's all about.  Don't make them mindlessly repeat empty "pledges".

Last time I checked, that's what religion does.  Start drilling it into their heads that god (santa, the easter bunny ...whoever) is watching them so they'd better be good or they don't get heaven (or presents or chocolate bunnies ....whatever).  For some reason we figure out that there's no easter bunny, no santa...no tooth fairy...but we never let go of god.  death doesn't come once a year.  so we don't really get the chance to see this one over and over again.  One shot and you go through the whole thing with this childish beleif and POW....you're in the ground being eaten by worms.  Oh well. 

I suspect heaven is there so we can meet our loved ones later one....so I don't totally understand why animals (pets specifically) don't have souls.  and when I say "heaven is there" I mean, the old dead guys made it up to make us feel better about losing loved ones.  "don't worry bobby..you'll see grandma again....uhhhh....in heaven!"   

Allroy

[JB]

Even beyond that, requiring children to make a daily pledge of this kind is pointless. The most it's going to do is drill the words into their skulls and make them even MORE meaningless.  If you want them to appreciate what the USA is all about, then teach them or show them what it's all about.  Don't make them mindlessly repeat empty "pledges".

Last time I checked, that's what religion does.  Start drilling it into their heads that god (santa, the easter bunny ...whoever) is watching them so they'd better be good or they don't get heaven (or presents or chocolate bunnies ....whatever).  For some reason we figure out that there's no easter bunny, no santa...no tooth fairy...but we never let go of god.  death doesn't come once a year.  so we don't really get the chance to see this one over and over again.  One shot and you go through the whole thing with this childish beleif and POW....you're in the ground being eaten by worms.  Oh well. 

I suspect heaven is there so we can meet our loved ones later one....so I don't totally understand why animals (pets specifically) don't have souls.  and when I say "heaven is there" I mean, the old dead guys made it up to make us feel better about losing loved ones.  "don't worry bobby..you'll see grandma again....uhhhh....in heaven!"   

Allroy

Precisely.

Same applies to the rest of the pledge. Keep them pledging their allegiance, adn they develop a REAL allegiance

[quarterback]

Same applies to the rest of the pledge. Keep them pledging their allegiance, adn they develop a REAL allegiance

I understand your point, and there may be people making the argument that we NEED the pledge to ENSURE the allegiance of our children.... but realistically, I don't see the recitation of the pledge producing any real results on the kids of the US.

The difference is that finding a religion satisfies a very common need that (some) humans have.

[JB]

Same applies to the rest of the pledge. Keep them pledging their allegiance, adn they develop a REAL allegiance

I understand your point, and there may be people making the argument that we NEED the pledge to ENSURE the allegiance of our children.... but realistically, I don't see the recitation of the pledge producing any real results on the kids of the US.

I don't see it being pushed very hard either, really.

It's not being done right, but the principle of the thing is there.

The difference is that finding a religion satisfies a very common need that (some) humans have.  It provides answers to questions that frighten people.  OTOH, there's no scary unknown waiting for you if you don't find a country to wholeheartedly pledge your loyalty to before you die.

Even people that aren't bothered about death have questions that need answers.

Religion has historically answered questions centuries before science advanced far enough to begin offering hypotheses.


Example: Where did everything come from?
Religion: God made the stars, the Earth, the plants, the animals, and the people.

Science: Well, there was the big bang, and that created the universe. We don't know what started the big bang, and under current laws of physics, never CAN know.
Of course, the big bang just blew out a lot fo subatomic particles. Eventually, those formed atoms. From there, things started sticking together because of gravity. Again, we don't know why everything wasn't evenly distributed, which would have prevented anything from pulling together.
And then it clumped together and made stars and planets.
And then something happened, probably involving lightning. Some molecules began copying themselves.
And got more and more complex over many eons, until we got where we are today.



Of course, once science advances to the point where it can offer a more accurate picture than "God did it" religion starts fighting it, because it runs counter to indoctrination.
Sometimes religion fights dirty too. Forces people to publically recant their opposing viewpoint then locks them up for life and such.

And some people just don't like the scientific answer because it's complex, incomplete, and not very accessable.

[shmokes]

Example: Where did everything come from?

Science: We don't know what started the big bang, and under current laws of physics, never CAN know.

Heh....seems only fair to say:

Religion: God made the stars, the Earth, the plants, the animals, and the people.   We don't know what started God, and under current laws of....erm...supernatural parents with magic powers who don't want us to have access to very much information, never CAN know...    

Oh yeah, and the earth is approx. 6000 years old.

[JB]

Example: Where did everything come from?

Science: We don't know what started the big bang, and under current laws of physics, never CAN know.

Heh....seems only fair to say:

Religion: God made the stars, the Earth, the plants, the animals, and the people.   We don't know what started God, and under current laws of....erm...supernatural parents with magic powers who don't want us to have access to very much information, never CAN know...    

Oh yeah, and the earth is approx. 6000 years old.

No, religion says NOTHING made God because God always HAS been forever and ever.

Oh yeah... and that to question this answer is to doom yourself to eternal damanation because although God loves everyone, he doesn't mind sticking people in pits of fire for asking questions.

[shmokes]

When you say god loves everyone, don't you mean she loves all her children and doesn't mind sticking her children in pits of fire for asking questions?

[JB]

Maybe... 

[ChadTower]

Drilling and repetition and rote memory is how most things are taught to children.  That's how they learn math, science, history, English... hell, that's how they learn to hit a ball.

[Grasshopper]

Drilling and repetition and rote memory is how most things are taught to children.  That's how they learn math, science, history, English... hell, that's how they learn to hit a ball.

Well that's only part of the story. You also have to teach children how to think for themselves i.e. logic, reasoning, creativity etc. Actually these faculties are probably innate but good teaching helps to bring them out.

And it depends upon the subject. There is for instance very little rote learning in maths. If you tried to pass a maths exam simply by learning a maths book by heart you wouldn't get very far.

[Grasshopper]

Forcing children to mindlessly recite a pledge whatever the wording is pretty lame IMHO. Even if all the god stuff is taken out it is a bit dubious to pressure children to take part in 'patriotic' exercises.

It is not universally accepted that patriotism is actually a good thing. Some people believe it can lead to nationalism, xenophobia, a belief that you're superior to other peoples and cultures, and even racism in countries that are not racially diverse.

If there must be a pledge then it should focus on values which are associated with America but which are universal and not solely American such democracy, freedom of expression etc.

[ChadTower]

You know, whenever I recite the pledge in my head, it doesn't have "under God" in it.  I was taught the pledge by my grandfather, and went to very traditional type schools, both public and private.  I don't think I ever had to use the words "under God" as a kid, when I was in the US.

[ClubNinja]

You know, whenever I recite the pledge in my head, it doesn't have "under God" in it.

[ChadTower]

When I was feeling particularly Canadian, I would usually say "I pledge allegiance to the flag that Michael Jackson is a ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?---..."

Very, very quietly.

There was a whole pledge to Michael Jackson's gayness and flammability.  I wish I could remember more of it now.

[TheVengeance]

Is this nation not worth fighting for?

Some of what I am reading in this thread sounds like red commie talk.

The USA is the best <censored by saint> country in the world.

Yes, it is in disarray.
Yes, it is under attack on all fronts.
Yes, it is run by thieves and liars.
And Yes, it is corrupt.

But, I will die fighting before I give up what my ancestors fought and died for. This is our f'n country. We are it's children.

I am all for the pledge of allegiance in our public schools. "Under God" doesn't offend me as much as the last part..."With liberty and Justice for All".

...because we know that is a lie. A bigger lie than the sham that "Under God" is offensive

[Thenasty]

my motto is " If you don't like it, get out".

Why stay if you don't like it. Would you go to that restaurant again if you did not like what they serve you ? No, you stay out. If you don't like to eat fastfood, you stay away from it. You don't like to eat meat cause your are a veggie, just don't.
You don't like Marilyn Manson music, don't listen/buy it.....Simple....

You don't lke what you read here, "GET OUT". Simple......don't make it hard.

[ChadTower]

But that is the problem... now, if people don't like the food, they sue to make the restaurant serve something that they do like.

[Thenasty]

But that is the problem... now, if people don't like the food, they sue to make the restaurant serve something that they do like.

I meant what you ordered, it did not taste as you expected....You know the usual biatching....To much Mayo, no Pickles, to dry bla bla bla....

[mr.Curmudgeon]

All this hoopla is for naught anyhow. I believe it goes before the Supreme Court now, and of course, with Roberts on the bench...it'll never wash.

Don't fret, the pledge will most likely stand. Even though the "under God" part was never in the original pledge.

mrC

[ChadTower]

How did Roberts manage to get more than one vote?

[Thenasty]

"The Flag Code specifies that any future changes to the pledge would have to be with the consent of the President. "


He will never change it......just because some1/hundreds says so....
Bush maybe will tell them to listen to Thenasty and to "GET OUT"

[fredster]

Come on, one guy gets pissed and he makes it difficult for everybody else.  Geeze.  It's unreal.

In any argument, there are always WINNERS and LOSERS.  It's a digital thing okay?

If the majority has to bend to the minority all the time, what freaking sense does that make?

What country has "liberty and justice" for all?  What system do you people think is soooo perfect it's better than ours? 

[ChadTower]

If the majority has to bend to the minority all the time, what freaking sense does that make?

That is how America works now.

[Thenasty]

I don't like HALAL meat, so I don't buy it and you don't see me asking to remove it from being sold....

[Dexter]

Personally, I reckon "one nation under Canada" solves the problem.