She's just mad because she caught her husband doing it

[ChadTower]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/07/15/senate.videogame.reut/index.html

[SirPoonga]

'"We should all be deeply disturbed that a game which now permits the simulation of lewd sexual acts in an interactive format with highly realistic graphics has fallen into the hands of young people across the country," Clinton wrote in a letter to the head of the Federal Trade Commission.'

She hasn't seen it, has she.  They have their clothes on!  So it gives the same idea as two stick figures doing it.  Graphics quality has nothing to do with it!


"The Entertainment Software Rating Board last week launched a probe into whether the sexual minigame content was deliberately hidden in the game code and unlocked by the "hot coffee" modification, or if it was solely the result of the modification."

This has been answered already.  Rockstar was going to include it but took it out by just deleting the code that referenced it.  So technically it was "deliberately" hidden but the only way it oculd have been found was someone who can debug the code in hex format and find and area of the code that isn't getting executed.  So it really is a combination of the two.  Rockstar lazy deleted it (very common in the programming world, just delete the reference but not the content) and someone else found the unexecuted code.

[ChadTower]

The fact that Hillary has picked it up, though, means that it's going to become a large issue.  She's gearing up for her Presidential run and her handlers are VERY careful about what issues she runs with.  This can only mean it's going to be part of her campaign in some way.

[patrickl]

You could pick up a hooker in GTA3 on a PS2 and have sex with her too. That was quite a while ago. Well there was no actual sex displayed, but your car would be "rocking" in a special manner and afterwards your health was "up". I always found that rather amusing.

[Dartful Dodger]

So does this mean we need to run out and buy the current PC version of GTA before it get's pulled and becomes a collector's item?

[ChadTower]

Why?  The game sucks anyway.

[clanggedin]

In the version of the sex scene I saw the girl was totally naked and the guy was fully clothed. It was pretty explicit too.

[ChadTower]

Stop looking in my window, pervert.  You left streaks all over it and what appears to be a buttprint.

[JB]

No, the buttprint was mine.

[tommy]

Thats really dumb, if you let your child see killing , robbing and bloody deaths there is no reason to not let them see it all.

It's rated Mature for a reason, thats why the rateing system is in place.

Once again, blame the ones who should be blamed, the parents, not the game makers.

[ChadTower]

Holy crap, Tommy is right.  Blame the parents.  After all the handwringing, photo ops, speeches and press conferences, it really is up to the parents to manage what their kids are exposed to and what they are not...

...which makes it such a shame that most parents are lousy at parenting.

[monkeybomb]

It is amazing what parents aren't responsible for.

The other point is valid too.  How is a little sex the harmful part of a game where the objective is to rule the thug world.  You can sit on top of a roof and just pick people off for no reason and she's worried about what?  I don't know the specifics of San Andres but I beat the other ones.  Violence good, sex bad.  That's just how some folks see it.

[ChadTower]

Really, the game has an M rating, my kids aren't allowed near it with a 10 foot pole.  Same with T.  I'm not out looking for legislation to protect my kids, I protect them.  It is my responsibility to protect them, teach them, raise them, make them a pair of productive and responsible men.  If they do not turn out that way I will consider myself a complete failure as a father because it is not only my responsibility to make them good men but the most important one I will ever have.

I volunteer at various youth activities in my town and it always deeply saddens me, the amount of parents who just don't do very much.  I've worked with some great, tremendous kids with real potential that only need a tiny bit of love or attention and couldn't get much more at home than half a sandwich and some socks.

[tommy]

I'm just very tired of having to suffer due to ignorance, same with the pitbull VS owners thread i commented on, same difference.

[ChadTower]

Dude, you're a Giants fan, you revel in your ignorance.   

[shmokes]

Guys the issue isn't the regular "rocking the car" sex-with-hookers found in every GTA since GTA 3.  It's a downloadable patch that either adds or unlocks an explicit sex scene.  If it's a usermade patch, it's a non-issue.  If, however, the code was included with the shipping product and hte hack merely unlocks it, Rockstar would be liable for not identifying the code to the ESRB, who would have, in turn, given the game an A - Adults Only rating instead of the more common and acceptable M - Mature rating.  This is to the videogame world the same difference between an M or NC-17 rating and an R rating in the film world and would be akin to Lion's Gate releasing the DVD for Monster's Ball with an R rating, but having an easter egg hidden where during the Halle Berry sex scenes one could press the angle button on the DVD remote to get explicit scenes including penetration (which would, admittedly, be awesome).  It's not that it's illegal to make videos that explicity depict sex, but it IS illegal to fail to disclose content in the movie in order to get a rating that you would not qualify for had you been forthcoming about what the viewer could be exposed to.

What scares me most is this investigation getting twisted into the witchhunt that many of you clearly think it already is.  I think that GTA: San Andreas is one of the best games ever made.  It contains a great deal of violence and some strong, though comical sexual innuendo that could easily scrape by with a PG-13 rating.  Watching a partially obscured car bounce up and down while the shocks squeek does not an explicit sex scene make.  But if Rockstar DID include explicit scenes that could be unlocked and failed to reveal those to the rating board in order to get a better rating they should be investigated and held accountable.

...and so on.

[ChadTower]

When did the ESRB ratings become anything other than voluntary?

[Dartful Dodger]

When did the ESRB ratings become anything other than voluntary?

After the smoke clears from this.

You said you don't let your kids play T games, but for all you know that Elmo game you let your kids play could have an XXX unlock code.

You can't blame parents for something they couldn't control.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

...but for all you know that Elmo game you let your kids play could have an XXX unlock code.

Now that'd be hilarious.

[ChadTower]

After the smoke clears from this.

You said you don't let your kids play T games, but for all you know that Elmo game you let your kids play could have an XXX unlock code.

You can't blame parents for something they couldn't control.

You sure can blame them.  I try out any game I let my kids play, before I let them play it.  The ESRB ratings are only a voluntary, self imposed guideline for parents.  It's all about how motivated a parent is to keep their kids' exposure at a rate the parent feels is appropriate.  I can't tell you how may parents I know say things like "well I only let my kids play G games" but will allow the kids to watch them play GTA San Andreas for hours. 

Most parents aren't motivated to do what is necessary because they're too lazy and want someone else accountable. 

[monkeybomb]

Hardcore penatration closeups cannot be as bad to a child as the violence in the GTA series.  There is a twisted sense of right and wrong on this one.

If an Elmo game has something explict, then there is a problem.  But when I can start the game, put in a weapons code, then proceed to beat prostitutes with a bat until they bleed to death and then take their  money right before I pick off cops with a sniper riffle and watch the blood spurt from their heads, then don't cry about sex no matter how explict. 

[ChadTower]

I agree, actually.  The violence is as bad as the sex. 

Didn't they spend a YEAR crying about the violence?  It's time for the sex.

[monkeybomb]

I agree, actually.  The violence is as bad as the sex. 

Didn't they spend a YEAR crying about the violence?  It's time for the sex.

LOL  - yeah I guess they did.

[Dartful Dodger]

You sure can blame them.

[ChadTower]

No, what I'm saying is that my kids would not be playing GTA SA to begin with, so no matter what their friends told them about it, it would be irrelevant.

Now, if there were sex scenes in a Pooh game, that would be an entirely different matter, wouldn't it?

[SteveJ34]

You could pick up a hooker in GTA3 on a PS2 and have sex with her too. That was quite a while ago. Well there was no actual sex displayed, but your car would be "rocking" in a special manner and afterwards your health was "up". I always found that rather amusing.

Hmmmm.....depending on the hooker, one might expect health to be worsened rather than improved. 

[Dartful Dodger]

No, what I'm saying is that my kids would not be playing GTA SA to begin with, so no matter what their friends told them about it, it would be irrelevant.

Now, if there were sex scenes in a Pooh game, that would be an entirely different matter, wouldn't it?

GTA was an M game, some of the parents that bought that game tested it.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

People who are active in the community playing with other people's kids, don't have time to watch their own kids 24/7 so they'll miss the event that turns their kids gay.

Yeah! Like playing Winnie the Poo games...Oh, wait..no.   

Anyhow, I agree with shmokes on this. The solution is for game developers to held accountable for "hidden" explicit material, that gets in under the applied ESRB rating. Otherwise, parents are not being allowed to make an informed decision as to whether it's OK to bash a hookers head in and steal her money, as opposed to having sex with her.

Now, the next logical question is: Are they wearing protecting while doing it in GTA: SA? 

[shmokes]

Chad you seem to be missing the point.

There is content, possibly added by the manufacturer, in this game that is not suitable for the rating it was given.  It's the same concept as hiding inappropriate material in a Whinnie the Pooh game (though admittedly that would be worse considering the game's audience).  But to suggest that it's okay to hide the material in GTA simply because you wouldn't let your kids near it anyway because of the M rating is naive (especially considering Disney's history of easter eggs from such films as The Little Mermaid, Lion King, Aladdin and Who Framed Roger Rabit). 

The fact that participation in the ratings system is voluntary is irrelevant.  You of all people, a parent who actually makes use of the ratings in order to make informed decisions about what content your kids are being exposed to, should care about this.  I know it's me, and I'm a liberal who immensely enjoys watching you fume over being called a geek, but there's no good reason why you shouldn't be on the same page as me on this.  If publishers sneak content into their games and get a lower rating than they would have got had the ESRB been aware of the content, then the rating system -- the one you have explicitly told us that you rely on -- is broken.  That should matter to you.  The fact that you "try out" the game is meaningless.  Thousands, probably millions of people played GTA: San Andreas from beginning to end without coming across this material. 

FWIW, I also think that it's retarded that making the sex scene more graphic would change the rating.  Short of something like rape or child molestation there's not much you could depict sex-wise that would remotely outweigh the graphic violence.  What kind of screwy person is okay with their kid stabbing a pedestrian to death with a chainsaw as long as he doesn't pick another pedestrian and have sex with her.

With all that said, does anyone know if I can download the patch for the Xbox version?

[JB]

The disabling of abandoned features is a long-standing tradition in the game industry.

IMO, rating a game based on content that was disabled but left on the disk is much like rating a movie based on the scenes left in the editing room. 

[mr.Curmudgeon]

IMO, rating a game based on content that was disabled but left on the disk is much like rating a movie based on the scenes left in the editing room.

But those pesky kids could never get their hands on that edited footage (unless it's released on a special edition DVD)...

With the "hidden" stuff in GTA, it's already there...just begging to be unlocked. Teasing you, tempting you with "coffee"...working you over, possibly trying to make your kids gay...or something.


mrC

[tommy]

Dude, you're a Giants fan, you revel in your ignorance.

[JB]

IMO, rating a game based on content that was disabled but left on the disk is much like rating a movie based on the scenes left in the editing room.

But those pesky kids could never get their hands on that edited footage (unless it's released on a special edition DVD)...

With the "hidden" stuff in GTA, it's already there...just begging to be unlocked. Teasing you, tempting you with "coffee"...working you over, possibly trying to make your kids gay...or something.


mrC

So THAT'S why I keep waking up with a copy of GTA in my pants!

Kinda creepy, realy, since I don't even own it...

[shmokes]

It owns you.

[ScoopKW]

I agree, actually.  The violence is as bad as the sex. 

Didn't they spend a YEAR crying about the violence?  It's time for the sex.

Remember the George Carlin routine?

I'd like to substitute the word [censored] in movies for the word "kill."

Can you imagine?

"Sherriff, we caught ya' and now we're going to [censored] you. But we're going to [censored] you slow...."

ScoopKW

PS - But then again, look at this forum. Kill. Kill. Maim. Murder. Torture. Rape.  None of those were auto-censored. Let's try another word:

---fudgesicle---!

See my point? We have less of a hang up about violence than we do about sex here, too.

[ChadTower]

You of all people, a parent who actually makes use of the ratings in order to make informed decisions about what content your kids are being exposed to, should care about this.

[bionicbadger]

I don't see what the uproar is about.

The game is rated M, that means you need to be 17 to buy it.  If your kids are playing it:  a) its your fault for buying the game for them;  b) the store selling the game to them just wants money and doesn't check the kids age; c) your kids are software pirates and breaking the law, so seeing them some boobies is the least of your problems.

The "content" in question is not accessable without a special user developed hack/patch.  You can download nude/sex patches for quite a few games including the Sims but no one seems to care about that.

[tommy]

Seems to me it's a whole lot easier to just look for some real porn online and nevermind GTA, if they want it and you're not looking they will find it.

[JoyMonkey]

Just last week I was buying a game in Toys R Us (which I don't think should really be selling M rated games anyway) and the guy infront of me was buying XBox San Andreas for his kid. The kid was the most obnoxious little bastard I've ever seen, kept telling the girl behind the counter how much her job sucked and how he'd never be caught dead working there- and the kid was about 8 years old! And the father just stood there and let him act like that while he paid for the game. I would have gotten a boot to the head if I acted that way as a child. Next week the kid will be all 'Dad you <CENSORED BY SAINT>, get me the new PSP GTA'. Sad.
Then the lady behind me asked the girl behind the counter if they had San Andreas for XBox. The girls says 'Yes, what age is the person you're buying it for?' The woman says 'He's six'. The girl recommended that she not buy the game because of it's explicit content, but the woman said something to the effect of 'You can't tell me what I can and can't give to my own <DITTO> son, give me the <DITTO AGAIN> game, where is your <AND A 4TH TIME> manager?'.

I can't understand why these parents act like this, humanity is doomed!


saint's note - please don't use mis-spellings to get around the auto-censor. If the auto-censor won't let you say it, don't try to trick it. Thanks!

[ChadTower]

Yep, though note, that kid will grow up to be trash and it will be his parents' fault.

For the record, I would not allow my children to speak to anyone like that.  The game would be left there unpurchased as a result and the boy would go home emptyhanded to sit in his room with the electricity off.

[JoyMonkey]

Yep, though note, that kid will grow up to be trash and it will be his parents' fault.

For the record, I would not allow my children to speak to anyone like that.  The game would be left there unpurchased as a result and the boy would go home emptyhanded to sit in his room with the electricity off.

Mental note to self: When designing dream home, make sure each kids bedroom is wired on a seperate circuit.

[ChadTower]

Heh.  My house is sort of coincedentally that way.  It's a small cape and the upstairs has two rooms.  Both are kids' bedrooms.  The entire upstairs is on its own circuit.  I haven't had to do it yet because they don't have tons of electrical stuff up there.  Right now the main issue is keeping a kid under punishment from using battery operated toys since that's 95% of what they have.  Luckily they're not old enough to notice that we also flip on the baby monitor when they are sent to their rooms and can hear what they are doing.

[shmokes]

And hopefully, for your sake, when they are a bit older you will start affording them some privacy.  It won't take long at all for the kids to realize that they can't trust you.  At that point circumventing your espionage tactics will become child's play -- but they'll still resent you for trying. 

Never forget how absolutely simple it was to fool your parents when you were a teenager.  It is just as easy for your teenagers to fool you, as will it be for me.

By the way, participating in the ratings system is voluntary, but the rating itself is not self-imposed except to the extent that the publisher chooses what content to include in the game.  The rating is issued by an indepentant group.  And they ARE useful.  We all know that you don't watch and play everything before your kids.  You trust that a Disney E-rated game is going to be okay without you playing it from beginning to end first.  You don't TIVO Sesame street so that you can scan it first for inappropriate content.  As long as the ratings work they keep parents from having to personally play every crappy children's game before they buy it.

[ChadTower]

And hopefully, for your sake, when they are a bit older you will start affording them some privacy.

[DrewKaree]

The game is rated M, that means you need to be 17 to buy it. 

Riiiiiiiiiight

How's that working at the movie theater and rated R movies?

There's gonna be someone somewhere who's just as apathetic as the ticket-seller at the theater about ensuring that an age-limit is adhered to.  Scratch that, make that MULTIPLE "someone somewhere's".

[shmokes]

because they won't be criminals.

...You hope, lol

[JB]

I don't see what the uproar is about.

The game is rated M, that means you need to be 17 to buy it.  If your kids are playing it:  a) its your fault for buying the game for them;  b) the store selling the game to them just wants money and doesn't check the kids age; c) your kids are software pirates and breaking the law, so seeing them some boobies is the least of your problems.

Actually, the M rating just means it's RECOMMENDED for ages 17 and up.

Any policies regarding actual sales are at the retailer level, not the ESRB  level.

The "content" in question is not accessable without a special user developed hack/patch.  You can download nude/sex patches for quite a few games including the Sims but no one seems to care about that.

More importantly, you can download REAL porn.

But the people that care only care about this one because it's in Grand Theft Auto, which is the Ultimate Destroyer Of Civilization

[ChadTower]

because they won't be criminals.

...You hope, lol

Hey, what else can a parent do?  At some point they have to become what they will become.

[Dartful Dodger]

'Grand Theft Auto' Gets 'Adults Only' Rating

[shmokes]

I just need to find out if the "inaccessible" scenes are on the Xbox version.  I want to see what all the hoopla is about.  Again, I'd like to reiterate how lame people are.  If the game did not already deserve an A or AO or whatever rating it shouldn't get one for a sex scene.  I'm talking about a societal thing here.  The rating system is just a reflection of what consumers care about.  I just think it's lame that people think it's so important to sheild us from this, or Janet Jackson's boob, but will give LotR: Return of the King a PG-13 rating even though hundreds of severed human heads are catapulted over the city wall and people hundreds of people are brutally killed in the big battle scenes.

...and so on.

[ChadTower]

Ratings are meaningless, bought and paid for according to the amount of profit to be had or lost depending on the rating itself. 

It's no different than anything else in this world.

[tommy]

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/
GTA now rated Adult. Go to technology section.

[ChadTower]

See how stupid the rating system is?  They changed it based on content that's not even in the game.

[tommy]

See how stupid the rating system is?  They changed it based on content that's not even in the game.

They were forced to, they had to do something to make it look like they care.

[DrewKaree]

See how stupid the rating system is?  They changed it based on content that's not even in the game.

They were forced to, they had to do something to make it look like they care.

That's even SILLIER that you'd say that.  They in NO WAY were "forced" to change it.  This has nothing to do with "caring", it has to do with NEGATIVE PUBLICITY!  If they "cared", they'd come out and say "if you're a parent and don't want your kids to be further exposed to anything else, take the game to your local retailer and we'll give you a credit of "X" dollars towards another of our titles".  If this were publicity the company WANTED, they'd milk all this free pub by coming out and saying "this isn't in the game itself, this is illegal code written to exploit our game - it is up to you as parents to ensure this isn't a problem.  We as a company stand behind our product and our company's reputation" or some other such nonsense.

They were "forced" to do this as much as Ricky Williams was "forced" out of football last year

[tommy]

That's even SILLIER that you'd say that.  They in NO WAY were "forced" to change it.  This has nothing to do with "caring", it has to do with NEGATIVE PUBLICITY! 

I'm talking about ESRB, not rockstar.

[shmokes]

Yeah, Tommy's right.  ESRB had to make the change in order to not lose credibility.  As far as Rockstar is concerned, they've decreased their profit forcast by $50 million dollars due to the fact that they expect a lot of returns based on the bad press (many of them probably just people who have beat the game and realize that they can now take it back for a full refund), as well as the fact that a lot of stores will pull it off the shelves now that it's got the adult rating.  This definitely hurts Rockstar.  It's kind of a shame.  It really does seem like they meant for the material to be cut permanently.  It's not like there's a code that can be put in or like it can be accessed with an Action Replay or something.

Great game, though.  I downloaded the "hot coffee" patch for the Xbox, but haven't installed it yet.  I'll report back.  At this point I have basically no idea what it does.  I've never seen screenshots or anything.  All I know is that it unlocks sex minigames or something to that effect.  I'll post back when I get around to installing it and give you an idea of just how explicit it is.

[ChadTower]

Erm, Rockstar feeds of negative press.  Their target audience doesn't see it as negative, they see Rockstar as persecuted.  There will be no returns.  This game is far out of viable retail anyway, so this is really just press for the company.  Most people with common sense suspect this was all a charade, that Rockstar intentionally left the content and Rockstar leaked the 'hack' to the internet to unlock it.  It's calculated and it sure as hell worked.

[Dartful Dodger]

It's lazy programming.  Now that apps are on CDs and DVDs, and the internet is geared toward DSL as the standard minimum, the new generation of programmers don't worry about trimming down their files.  I work with these knuckle heads all the time.

I was planning on buying a pre-rated game, but Rockstar caved to quickly on this one.  I'm sure the executives who decided not to put up a fight or stretch this out for more press, will have no problem trimming down their programming department.

[ChadTower]

They won't have to... it is not a programmer's job to decide on the contents of the bill of materials.

[tommy]

It really dosen't matter, with a game with that rating i would expect to see blood killing and even sex.

What does mature mean to you?

[ChadTower]

What it means to us is irrelevant as the rating has a specific definition.

[tommy]

This comes right off the GTA box right in front of me.

Rated Mature, Blood and gore, Intence Violence, Strong language, Strong sexual content, use of drugs.

What did they expect was going to be in it?

[ChadTower]

Right, if you go to the ESRB's website, those are specific criteria for that rating.  The rating process isn't nearly as subjective as most people seem to think.

If the system meant anything, that game should have STARTED as Adults Only.

[DrewKaree]

This comes right off the GTA box right in front of me.

Rated Mature, Blood and gore, Intence Violence, Strong language, Strong sexual content, use of drugs.

What did they expect was going to be in it?

Pit bulls running rampant, automatic weapons, and a horse farm somewhere in there that is used for bestiality.

 

[shmokes]

Erm, Rockstar feeds of negative press.  Their target audience doesn't see it as negative, they see Rockstar as persecuted.  There will be no returns.  This game is far out of viable retail anyway, so this is really just press for the company.  Most people with common sense suspect this was all a charade, that Rockstar intentionally left the content and Rockstar leaked the 'hack' to the internet to unlock it.  It's calculated and it sure as hell worked.

Bestbuy, Circuit City, Wal-Mart, Target and Gamestop have all pulled San Andreas from the shelves because they don't sell Adults Only games.  Unless I'm mistaken Gamestop is the largest videogames retailer on the planet and now owns Electronics Boutique. 

You still sure this is going to be good for Rockstar/Take-Two's bottom line???

A company doesn't reduce it's projected earnings by $50 million dollars as a PR stunt.  They do it so they don't get their asses sued off by investors.  An announcement like that causes stock prices to plummet.

Edit: Amazon.com is no longer stocking it and confirmed that EB doesn't stock it anymore. 

[tommy]

Obviouly murder is more accepted then sex if now it's not a proper game to stock.

[ChadTower]

Bestbuy, Circuit City, Wal-Mart, Target and Gamestop have all pulled San Andreas from the shelves because they don't sell Adults Only games.  Unless I'm mistaken Gamestop is the largest videogames retailer on the planet and now owns Electronics Boutique. 

You still sure this is going to be good for Rockstar/Take-Two's bottom line???

It doesn't matter.  How old is this game now?  Games nowadays are only viable at retail for a couple of months.  Everyone who was going to buy the game has bought it.  Most games fall off the shelves entirely after a few weeks, and this game is months old.  If this had been a NEW game, those stores would not have stopped carrying it because it would still be selling like hotcakes.  Anyone who works at one of those places can tell us just how fast a game drops off the retail market once it's no longer a new release.  The amount of lost sales is probably just about equal to the amount of people who said "oh, I don't have the PS2 version, now I have to buy it to see these scenes".

[DYNAGOD]

For those who are throwing forth opinion witout having yet actually seen the evidence..
keep in mind, this material is NOT in the game and is out of the reach of those abiding by their end user TOS.
<<ADULT MATERIAL WARNING>> though to be honest, its no worse than any B flick.

http://www.games.net/article_frame/article_frame.cfm?global_id=110261&id=6810&src=gametrailers

[ChadTower]

IMO, the game should have been AO anyway.  Any game in which you can graphically murder people, especially Police, should be AO.

[tommy]

There is no reason to rerate the game or pull it, mature says it all,  there is a description of all the content on the box. Nothing more should be said, read the box people.  If you didn't want to see "Mature" things then don't buy it.

People have been looking to stick it to Rockstar for a long time and now it's example time.. All in the name of saving the children, pfft. Kids have no business with this game anyway.

[shmokes]

It doesn't matter.  How old is this game now?  Games nowadays are only viable at retail for a couple of months.  Everyone who was going to buy the game has bought it.  Most games fall off the shelves entirely after a few weeks, and this game is months old.  If this had been a NEW game, those stores would not have stopped carrying it because it would still be selling like hotcakes.  Anyone who works at one of those places can tell us just how fast a game drops off the retail market once it's no longer a new release.  The amount of lost sales is probably just about equal to the amount of people who said "oh, I don't have the PS2 version, now I have to buy it to see these scenes".

Gimme a break.  San Andreas for Xbox was the number-one selling game in June.  Period.  All games for all systems included.  That was three weeks ago.  It hasn't even made it to the bargain bin yet.  How can you be serious when you suggest it is done in the market?

I'll say again, if Rockstar/Take Two could begin to believably tell the public that this would have no significant impact on the bottom line they would.  Take Two's stockprice plummeted when they lowered revenue projection by $50 million.  A company does not make a public announcement like that for shits and giggles. 

It's also significant to point out that they are pulling that code out of the game to put an M-rated version back on the shelves.  Why exactly would they be doing this, do you suppose, for a game that is no longer "viable at retail"? 

[shmokes]

I agree with Tommy.  The Mature says it all.  It is the game industry's R-rating.  There's nothing in Grand Theft Auto that puts it out of the scope of an R-rated movie, with or without Hot Coffee.

I also agree with Chad that the violence in GTA far outweighs any other concern when assigning it a rating.  All this hoopla about Hot Coffee is like making an uproar about dirty bathrooms in a sweatshop.

[tommy]

All this hoopla about Hot Coffee is like making an uproar about dirty bathrooms in a sweatshop.

Absolutly. The differnce between the M and AO is one year(17-18).

 Can you possible tell me that the parent are saying "now johnny, your going to have to wait till next year to see all that great sex in games, just enjoy killing cops and crackheads for now, i don't want you to get the wrong idea about woman this year" 

[ChadTower]

If there is any real outcry, it should have been when this game hit the market rated M in the first place.

[shmokes]

I can relate to a degree.   But not if you use the movie rating system as a template.  Kill Bill is far more violent, and has far more emotional impact than GTA.  The sex in any number of R-rated movies, Monster's Ball for example, is a hundred times more graphic (and sexy for that matter) than anything found in GTA.

But I don't so much think of the ratings system as broken so much as our society.  The ratings system is just a reflection of our society and it's mixed up priorities.  We really just don't care so much about violence.  The amount of graphic violence you can see just by flipping on an episode of Law and Order: SVU on primetime network TV is astounding.  I've always found it mind-boggling that using the "f-word" twice in a movie will get you an automatic R-rating, but in lord of the rings you can depict hundreds of severed human heads being catapulted over the walls and watch an orc walk up to a dying human and savagely finish him off with a spear in the gut and so on, yet still squeak by with a PG-13.  I think I might have already mentioned the LotR example, but it's indicative of our tolerance for a great deal of violence.

Think of just about any  R-rated violent movie you can, in fact, and I'd bet money that there is some other element in the movie, be it language or sexual content, that by itself would have garnered the R-rating.

I think it's kind of interesting that you throw prostitutes in a game like GTA and it makes enormous headlines, like that's some kind of serious problem we are facing as a society.  We're one of the most, if not THE most, violent industrialized nation in the world, yet what we seem most worried about is that a videogame would encourage our kids to have sex. 

The Hot Coffee scenes are the most graphic sex scenes in a mainstream videogame to date, but they don't even begin to go beyond, or even approach the sex scenes allowable in R-rated fare like Boogie Nights or the softcore porn you can get at the video store or watch on late-night Cinemax.

If GTA-Vice City gets an AO rating -- the most severe ESRB rating out there -- what are you going to give an actual hardore pornographic game?  M seems to me like the appropriate rating for the game.

[ChadTower]

So you're saying because the game rating system can be based upon a broken movie rating system, that the game system should also suck...

I'm not buying that.

Neither ratings system means much anyway, ratings are a commodity, plain and simple.

[shmokes]

I don't think that the ratings system is broken in the way you think it is.  Its just a symptom of a broken society.  The R-rating serves it's function pretty well -- giving people a pretty accurate idea of whether or not the content of the movie will be appropriate for them.  Violent content has little affect on the rating because violent content has little affect on our sensibilities.  The movie ratings board doesn't pay much attention to the violence because the movie consumers don't pay much attention to it.  Consumers don't want to be shielded from LotR or Spiderman or The Ring. 

I think it's Americans in general that are screwy on the issue.  Putting a ratings system in place that does't cater to consumers isn't going to fix the problem.  All that is going to do is legitimize the AO rating as something that is okay to sell in regular stores.  Giving a game a new rating isn't going to make people more sensitive to violent content.  If you start giving games an AO rating based on violent content stores will just start carrying AO games because the demand for them is so high.  Then you're left in a situation where there is no rating for hardcore pornographic games, or a situation where they are lumped in with other games but there are no longer policies in place keeping them out of traditional game retailers.

[ChadTower]

I don't think that the ratings system is broken in the way you think it is.  Its just a symptom of a broken society.  The R-rating serves it's function pretty well -- giving people a pretty accurate idea of whether or not the content of the movie will be appropriate for them.  Violent content has little affect on the rating because violent content has little affect on our sensibilities.

Maybe yours.  I consider violence worse than consensual sexual content.  Far worse.

[shmokes]

I'm talking about Americans in general.  I think I've made that pretty clear -- and I think you agree.

[ChadTower]

Yep, I agree that most people are morons, and this is part of the reason.

[Dartful Dodger]

I consider violence worse than consensual sexual content.

[ChadTower]

This from a man whose children aren't old enough to play a game rated T.

When you come home from work early and little miss ChadTower is playing a video game with a boy, you'll change your mind about simulated consensual sexual content and simulated violence.

That doesn't make any sense.

[shmokes]

I think he's saying that you are going to do whatever you see in a videogame, so your failure to shield yourself from exposure to sexual content is going to make you molest small boys.  Whereas, if it weren't for the Hot Coffee patch we would only come home early to find you slitting his throat or stabbing him with a chainsaw or, perhaps, sniping him from a rooftop.

Or, maybe he's just saying that you will be playing a videogame with a boy which, for the life of me, I can't figure out what the problem would be with that.

 

[Dartful Dodger]

That doesn't make any sense.

It will.

[ChadTower]

I'm still trying to figure out who little miss chadtower is... I don't have any daughters.

[tommy]

I'm still trying to figure out who little miss chadtower is...

That would be you!!

[ChadTower]

And tommy finally scores a point!   

[Dartful Dodger]

I'm still trying to figure out who little miss chadtower is... I don't have any daughters.

I didn't say you had a daughter. 

My comment will make sense when you come home from work early and little miss ChadTower is playing a video game with a boy, you'll change your mind about simulated consensual sexual content and simulated violence.

[shmokes]

Hmm....that doesn't help.  What in the name of god are you talking about?

[SirPoonga]

All this hoopla about Hot Coffee is like making an uproar about dirty bathrooms in a sweatshop.

Absolutly. The differnce between the M and AO is one year(17-18).

 Can you possible tell me that the parent are saying "now johnny, your going to have to wait till next year to see all that great sex in games, just enjoy killing cops and crackheads for now, i don't want you to get the wrong idea about woman this year" 

You haven't been reading.  That's not the importance.  Most stores will NOT sell a game rated AO.

[ChadTower]

So?  Go to a store that does.  We don't live in an "if store X doesn't carry it I can't get it" world anymore.

[SirPoonga]

I'm still trying to figure out who little miss chadtower is... I don't have any daughters.

I didn't say you had a daughter. 

My comment will make sense when you come home from work early and little miss ChadTower is playing a video game with a boy, you'll change your mind about simulated consensual sexual content and simulated violence.

And you are allowing your children to play an M rated game?  That's where the problem lies...
At least with many retailers like Target they asked for a drivers license when an M rated game goes through the checkout.  So some adult is allowing the minors to play it...

[SirPoonga]

So?  Go to a store that does.  We don't live in an "if store X doesn't carry it I can't get it" world anymore.

Well, where would I get it?  internet only?  many internet sites are pulling it.  Wasn;t it someone here said ebay was pulling the games.  Every store that I know that carries computer games around here has pulled it from the shelves.

[ChadTower]

Well, where would I get it?

[SirPoonga]

My point being is i could get it form the internet I suppose.  But if I wanted to get it locally I can't.  Walmart pulled it, Target Pulled it, GameStop pulled it, this store attached to Hollywood Video pulled it.  There isn't a place near me that I can physically goto and buy it.

That's the importance of the AO rating.  It will be harder to get locally and you have to completely rely on the internet to get it. 

Which I find funny as even for an M rated game, at least I now at Target they card you.

[tommy]

This thread is really getting me mad now, AO ,M , what does it matter.

Whatever makes you sleep better....it's still going to sell.

Whats the big problem here? It still comes down to if your child can play the game with all that was in it before.... sex wouldn't make anymore difference.


I agree poonga...we all can go buy a porn video but GTA is somehow worse.

[ChadTower]

They pulled it for PR reasons, not because of some respect for ratings.

[Dartful Dodger]

Ebay is not pulling it.

My friend put a GTA on eBay, two days ago they pulled it.  This was the PS2 version.  He posted other games and they have not been pulled.

They may have changed their policy today, but as of yesterday it was not sellable.

[SirPoonga]

They didn't pull GTA because of PR, they pulled it because the stores policy is to not carry AO games.  And that's my point on why a M or AO rating is important.  Like I said, It is now very hard to get the game locally because there really isn't a store, unless it is hidden in a used bin, that sells it.

[shmokes]

Chad, you oughta stop talking out your ass.  First you claim that it doesn't matter because San Andreas isn't even selling any more anyway, to which I point out that it was the #1 selling game in America last month.

Now you're saying that online retailers are not pulling it, to which I give you the following list of online retailers who have stopped stocking San Andreas: Walmart.com, Target.com, Amazon.com (though sellers in their marketplace seem to be able to still sell it), Gamestop.com, Ebgames.com, CircuitCity.com, BestBuy.com.  About the only realatively major online games retailer still stocking it is gogamer.com.  Those companies, along with their B&M counterparts, probably represent 95% of all new videogame sales in America (Walmart sells more than anyone).

If you think that this is an exaggerated report you can feel free to visit the websites.  The only exaggerated, or perhaps unsubstantiated, information in this thread seems to be coming from you.

And whether it's PR or morals, the policy to not carry AO games, at least at Walmart, Best Buy, Gamestop and Electronic Boutique have been around for a long time.

The fact that there are millions of copies out there already is irrelevant.  Retailers don't just hold onto unsold stock and sell it in the alley behind the building .  They send it back. 

This is just dumb.  The games content, both sexual or violent, is R-rated material. 

[Dartful Dodger]

The GTA's that are on eBay are one day listings. 

It took a couple of hours for them to pull my buddy's game.  Since the ones that are on eBay have bids for over 60 bucks I'll have my friend relist his and have a buy it now option for 60 bucks. Hopefully someone will buy it before they pull it.

[ChadTower]

Now you're saying that online retailers are not pulling it, to which I give you the following list of online retailers who have stopped stocking San Andreas: Walmart.com, Target.com, Amazon.com (though sellers in their marketplace seem to be able to still sell it), Gamestop.com, Ebgames.com, CircuitCity.com, BestBuy.com.

[SirPoonga]

What I am also saying is that this is ONE EXAMPLE.  Wait until the next one that isn't a major media circus and see how it plays out.  The sky is not falling, a few politicians jumped on an easy bandwagon.  The legislation will sit until the media has moved on and then it will die.  The stores will move on, companies will be more careful not to get AO ratings and eventually someone will start making AO games.

But see, this is the funny thing.  Rockstar was trying to NOT get an AO rating so they could sell it in stores.  They were going to originally have the "hot coffee" mini-games in there.  I believe it was lazy deleted so the game could pass as an M rating.  So they were trying to be careful, they just deleted the references to the scenes instead of completely removing the content to save time and money.  Very popular programming technique as programmers time costs money.

But yeah, it just happen to occur on the #1 selling game at the moment.  If it was in a budget game I don't think it would make as much media.

[ChadTower]

Having been in the Release Engineering business for a decade, I intimately understand the software release process.  I can tell you with 100% certainty, unless they are complete incompetents, that content was left there on purpose.  No content of any size makes it out the door as part of the disc bill of materials without a reason.  The larger the disc image is the more it costs to manufacture, which would cut into the profits, especially when you're expecting to make millions of copies.

This was a blundered management decision.  Let the game go out, sell a couple million copies, and then when the sales drop off leak a 'hack' that consists of one toggled flag in an easily decompiled binary.  The plan was probably that it would trigger another buying frenzy but instead it triggered Senatorial attention, the same way Canseco's book did.

[shmokes]

If that's the case the least they could have done is finish the code.  The game freezes your character after the Hot Coffee scene finishes so you can stand there and look around, or even fire your weapon, but you can't move.  It's kinda cool, though, cos your health meter freezes too so you can start shooting people until the cops come and then start shooting them and they can't do anything about it.  The cops will swarm in with helicopters and everything, but their bullets have no effect on you.  Fun for a few minutes, but in the end you have to reset.

[Dartful Dodger]

Having been in the Release Engineering business for a decade, I intimately understand the software release process.

Currently being employed in the software programming business, I intimately understand the software programming process.

[tommy]

Here's another sites story about this topic.

http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=5271

They act like they found sex in a sesame street game. It's a game based on horrible things in life. Here is part of the topic.




"Plain and simple, parents cannot trust the ESRB to rate games appropriately or the industry to look out for our children's best interests.*IT'S NOT FOR CHILDREN* The ESRB and the video game industry cannot police themselves and this is yet another example of why we need legislation to limit these types of games to children."

[Dartful Dodger]

Since the ones that are on eBay have bids for over 60 bucks I'll have my friend relist his and have a buy it now option for 60 bucks. Hopefully someone will buy it before they pull it.

My friend didn't want to relist it because he was afraid of being banned from eBay, so I put it up under my name.

It was removed within 40 minutes.

[ChadTower]

Currently being employed in the software programming business, I intimately understand the software programming process.

[shmokes]

Are you telling me that when the programmers are done with it the suits at take-two pour through the code to look for anything that might not legitimately contribute to the game?  Are you telling me that they can even read those lines of code if they wanted to?

BS.  If the programmers don't clean up their own code it doesn't get cleaned up.  I'm not a programmer, but what you're talking about sounds pretty far-fetched.

[ChadTower]

Are you telling me that when the programmers are done with it the suits at take-two pour through the code to look for anything that might not legitimately contribute to the game?

[tommy]

I'm sure they didn't even bother to look though the game all that much. Rockstar has made many best selling games and i'm sure they are free to make there games without interference or having to ask anybody about what stays in.

[shmokes]

They have playtesters who play the hell out of the game looking for bugs and stuff.  I don't believe that non-programmers look through to see if there is content on the disc that can't be uncovered through normal play.  I'm not saying it's impossible and I'm going on nothing but gut feeling, but it sounds unlikely.

[Dartful Dodger]

You don't seem to be taking into account the difference between program code and media content.

You don't seem to be taking into account that 3d media IS programming code.  The "adult" animation that's being played isn't a 100meg QuickTime movie.  It's being drawn on the fly, so you can't skim the resources to see it.  The only thing you might be able to see is the nude skin, but with all the bikini skins, and other skanky skins in the game, a 50k file would be easy to over look.

These programmers aren't geniuses, they are lazy, and I wouldn't be surprised if they are currently unemployed.

[shmokes]

Why would they be unemployed?  They're selling more copies than ever. 

Chad.....back me up.

[ChadTower]

The managers responsible for the boneheaded "manipulate the media" marketing strategy very likely are unemployed. 

I understand that those scenes aren't raw MPEG and I even said it myself a few posts back.  That doesn't change the nature of the medium, which is that that content could have been taken off the disc easily.  It was taken out of the GAME easily, so why would you think it couldn't be removed from the disc?

Playtesters are 19 year old minimum wage monkeys, if they are paid at all.  They know very little about the medium and run test cases designed for them by the QA leads.  They would not uncover anything that is not covered by a prewritten test script of purposely limited scope.

You're underestimating software managers.  Most of them are NOT nonprogrammers, they're older guys who have 10+ years of experience as coders and moved up the chain to management.  How could a person reasonably be expected to make technological decisions about a medium they don't understand?  Sure, you get the occasional bonehead manager but they usually don't last long, or they get moved to marketing or business.  The majority of first level managers are guys my age, with my experience and skill level.  I actually WAS a manager and left to go back to being an engineer because I was sick of being responsible for the work of other people.

What this really comes down to is the fact that Rockstar made a conscious, arrogant decision to try and manipulate the media at a specific time in the game's sales cycle and it backfired.  It's the same thing that happened to Jose Canseco and his book.

[shmokes]

By a specific time in the game's sales cycle you mean, of course, when it was the number-one selling game in the nation.  Watch out for black helicopters.

[ChadTower]

By a specific time in the game's sales cycle you mean, of course, when it was the number-one selling game in the nation.

[fredster]

Chad, you oughta stop talking out your ass.

Now that's funny. 

Why is this thread still alive?  I mean, who cares?

[ChadTower]

Chad, you oughta stop talking out your ass.

Now that's funny.