Newsweek Allegations

[ChadTower]

Perhaps if more people understood what the fundamental teaching behind Islam is they would have a better understanding of it. At base its not enormously different to teachings of the Christian and Catholic faith.

Yes, it is.

[Fat_Trucker]

Exactly.

More or less what the Christian and Catholic church were up until the early part of this century.

There is no argument that their society is at a more primitive stage than ours but Islam isn't doing or saying anything that Catholicism and Christianity haven't done or said when our society was at a similar stage.

[ChadTower]

Exactly.

More or less what the Christian and Catholic church were up until the early part of this century.

Not really... Christianity is more about obedience, which is a substantially different idea than pure submission.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

It is a religion based on submission.

Agreed!! Catholicism in a nutshell.

Obediance leaves enough room for individual thought and potential rebellion, which is why there are so many splinter factions in Christianity

If it was so open to individual thought, why is there a need for splinter factions in the first place?

[ChadTower]

Agreed!! Catholicism in a nutshell.

Not if you've studied Catholicism with half an effort to understand it.

Look, all three major religions on this planet can be summed up in one word each:

Islam - submission
Christianity - obedience
Judaism - covenant

The history, theology, and behaviours of these religions follow these patterns precisely.  If you compare these three concepts on a simple level, you can begin to understand why they do not mix well at their very core.

[ChadTower]

If it was so open to individual thought, why is there a need for splinter factions in the first place?

It's not entirely open, just open enough that it leaves that door ajar.  It's the difference between crushing someone's spirit and just making them obey you.

[Fat_Trucker]

But the one factor they all share is the human condition.

Why in the face of an occupying non-muslim army are so many more Iraqi's striving to build a democracy than those who are signing up to fight against us?.

Why do so many Muslim families migrate to the largely non-muslim West seeking a better life?.

The sons of Islam are not as submissive as you think.

The modern world and the human condition cannot tolerate brutality and injustice indefinitely and religion will have very little to do with it come the end.

[ChadTower]

Why in the face of an occupying non-muslim army are so many more Iraqi's striving to build a democracy than those who are signing up to fight against us?.

Because we've done the hard work of freeing them for them.

[Fat_Trucker]

I was simply making the point that submissive religion or not, the human condition will make them want to gravitate toward societies that embrace fairness and comfort regardless of what their religion tells them.

They obviously aren't beyond making a few 'personal' choices. After all the decision to leave your whole culture and country for a better life is hardly consistent with someone who is submissive to the point of being brainwashed.

I agree that Islam is a religion based on submission, however I disagree that it removes peoples ability to make choices and that they follow it blindly. Mostly they just suffer from a lack of alternatives.

[shmokes]

Yeah, I know.

Wanted to see the reaction .....

What a difference six months can make, eh?  At least I can hold my ground on the interment camps (I hope anyway).

I think I was still seething over all the dead kids at that russian school at the time and in fear mode.

At any rate, I think my comments you linked to were somewhat short-sighted and simplistic and, unfortunately, pretty persuasive. 

[fredster]

At any rate, I think my comments you linked to were somewhat short-sighted and simplistic and, unfortunately, pretty persuasive. 

That makes my point.  We have forgotten the fear we had and have lulled ourselves into some false sense of security.  That's what the problem is.  We have let ourselves be separated by politics. 

We Forgot about 9/11.

We have always had more in common than we had differences.

And for what it's worth Shmokes, I always have thought your comments were short-sighted and simplistic.  So I agree with you yet again!

[shmokes]

And Fredster, for future reference, you really ought to control your excitement when you're holding a hand like that.  Had you held off on letting the cat out of the bag until I read your posts where you quoted, but didn't reference me, you could have got me going on some big long diatribe of how idiotic all that stuff was.  That's when you should have tipped your hand. 

Then you really would have had me.

p.s.  By the way, is there still a possibility that you are going to link to leaders of Islam who support the 9/11 attacks?  Surely if you were able to use the clunky message board search engine to track down those posts of mine you can spend a few seconds on Google (though, admittedly the payout won't be as high for you).

[shmokes]

And for what it's worth Shmokes, I always have thought your comments were short-sighted and simplistic.  So I agree with you yet again!

Cute.  But I know you secretly want to have my babies.

[Grasshopper]

Heh, I have to admit that was a pretty clever move on Fredster's part.

Never post on an internet board when you're angry, tired, drunk etc. as it will always come back to haunt you. Same applies to emails.

I'm just off to check my old posts to make sure there is nothing incriminating there....

[fredster]

you could have got me going on some big long diatribe of how idiotic all that stuff was

Nah Shmokes. I don't have to go to any trouble to do that, you do that all by your lonesome.

Surely if you were able to use the clunky message board search engine to track down those posts of mine..

It took me 3 seconds to find that.

[ChadTower]

I was simply making the point that submissive religion or not, the human condition will make them want to gravitate toward societies that embrace fairness and comfort regardless of what their religion tells them.

They are doing it now, now that all of the effort and real sacrifice has been taken from it.  Where people from Europe and Russia did it when it was a life risking task, these people wait until it's a simple plane flight and no immigration laws.  That is what I'm trying to say.  They were not motivated enough to do it when the Christians were.

They obviously aren't beyond making a few 'personal' choices. After all the decision to leave your whole culture and country for a better life is hardly consistent with someone who is submissive to the point of being brainwashed.

Brainwashed and broken are not the same thing.

I agree that Islam is a religion based on submission, however I disagree that it removes peoples ability to make choices and that they follow it blindly. Mostly they just suffer from a lack of alternatives.

They always had alternatives.  They could get on a boat/horse/train/walk just like people from other cultures have been doing for 300 years.  They simply weren't doing it because their own culture had them so docile that they didn't see that as an option.  How many stories have you heard out of there that rise to the level of building a raft out of old tree trunks and floating over hundreds of miles of hostile ocean?  People from Cuba do that on a regular basis.

[Crazy Cooter]

I think Muslims should be on watch lists.

[Crazy Cooter]

I'm pulling a Drew and responding twice in a row.

CT, The omish have been living in the US a long time and they choose to retain their "old ways" over the "new ways" of things (like cars ).

Are these people docile or traditional?  They can't be docile by your definition because the youth undergo a transitional period where they can "experiment" and see what is outside their own culture (I forget what it's called).  Then the choose if they want to return to the Amish ways or not.

[ChadTower]

CT, The omish have been living in the US a long time and they choose to retain their "old ways" over the "new ways" of things (like cars ).

Are these people docile or traditional?

[Dexter]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/26/AR2005052601538.html

"Pentagon officials said investigators have identified five incidents of "mishandling" the Koran by military guards and investigators. "

Well worth a read people. And the washington post at that

Newsweek lied people died??

[ChadTower]

So could you explain to us, even if it did happen, why that is worse than burning US flags and hanging our leaders, burning them in effigy, right in public?

[Dexter]

I don't recall mentioning it was worse!

However, if you are going to detain these people under the facade that they're prisoners of war you should at the very least uphold the geneva convention.

Oh, and if the best the apologists for this administrations crimes can do is to say 'well its not as bad as what THEY do to OUR flag/freedom (tm)/prisoners' then you have already become as bad as them.

There is no right way to do the wrong thing. Gitmo is the new Gulag, and the atrocities committed there serve only to strenghten the case of the extremists (ken bigley in the orange jumpsuit anyone??)

[fredster]

Dexter,

Do you even know what a "gulag" is?

[Dexter]

No Fredster, I'm an idiot (sarcasm off)

It is hard to find an accurate comparison to Gitmo mind. But anything that inters humans without proper due process and submits them to torture is going in the right direction.

I'm sure in the future any prison where people are treated like animals whether they are guilty or innocent will be referred to as 'todays guantanamo'. Especially if its controlled by white supremacist warmongers.

[ChadTower]

I don't see any real reason to continue to purport ourselves to be so morally superior to everyone else when clearly our actions prove we are not, and no one is buying it anyway.