Newsweek Allegations

[fredster]

C,

While you are free to exploit it for some sort of morbid personal gain, it remains beneath contempt and I'd had hoped you were a better man than that.

No, no, and uh, no.

I think you forgot in the heat of the moment what Gitmo was all about.

[ChadTower]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/26/crosses.burned.ap/index.html

I will riot at 10:30, right after my coffee.

So, I'm back from the rioting.  It went fairly well as I run a good riot.  I kicked a few plants and shouted at a mailbox.  No one was injured.  Next time, I try it with two cups of coffee.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

So, I'm back from the rioting.  It went fairly well as I run a good riot.  I kicked a few plants and shouted at a mailbox.  No one was injured.  Next time, I try it with two cups of coffee.

haha...you are so funny. Hilarious even. Thanks for helping establish the "ChadTower Meter of Mediocre Moderation"; where we use *you*, Chad, as the standard measure for exactly how much righteous indignation we will accept from others, irregardless of the situation.

Let it be declared, from this day forth, that if ChadTower is not upset about a particular issue, so sayith the "ChadTower Meter of Mediocre Moderation", that others may not be upset by it. Furthermore, if they so arrogantly refuse to acknowledge said "Meter" than we are to attempt to "rise above" by engaging in witty ridicule, browbeating those that'd feel differently, as we ruefully sneer down our noses during this all out "ideologically independent" assault.

Might I be so bold as to mention how nice it is to be surrounded by men so much more "centered" and level-headed than the rest of the world. Btw, I hope you enjoyed your coffee. I never imagined one could sow discontent so successfully, all while sipping on a steamy Colombian brew. Do you take milk, or does it make your tummy upset as well?

Given the overall clarity inherent in the "ChadTower Meter of Mediocre Moderation", I can come to no other conclusion than the idea that our country (U.S.) would be so much better off had the framers just had tea (coffee wasn't in fashion then) w/ the British rather than getting all huffy and ill-tempered before throwing it overboard.

mrC
P.S. In case you don't get the satire, *yes* I believe their are times when violent protest is necessary, I take these matters on a case by case basis, standing ready and willing to participate should the need and/or opportunity arise. Our history and our country is founded on it. To write off the discontent of others if arrogant and stupid, to go a step further and make fun of said discontent, is nothing short of dangerous.

Somehow (to tie it back to this thread) I get the feeling that Iraq and possibly Afghanistan will follow in our footsteps (ie: Revolution and/or Civil War). Except now, we are the "Imperialist invaders". You can chortle all you want, it doesn't change the fact that this administration's foreign policy in the Middle East is stoking the flames of Anti-Americanism in ways that will certainly come back to haunt us, much more viciously, and more multitudinously than if things had been handled differently.

Newsweek didn't cause the riots in Afghanistan. The WH has recently retracted it's accusation that it had and the FBI has substantiated the counter argument that the unrest was caused by much more harrowing issues. Exactly as I had claimed in the beginning of the thread.

[ChadTower]

Actually, what I'm doing is commenting on the futility and uselessness of rioting in your own area when someone does something you may not like in another part of the world.  My riot was not productive or useful in any way.  The riots over the Koran were not either.

Someday someone is going to google my name and find the Meter of Mediocre Moderation.

I didn't drink the coffee while I was rioting, I drank it before I rioted.  I thought I stated that clearly.  One must be caffeinated to pull of a solo riot.

[fredster]

You'll forgive me if I stick to ACTUAL news channel sites.

Then please find one that the ACLU or Amnesty International didn't drive the story.

Where are the documents?

[shmokes]

MrC,

Oh, I just kinda thought it was 'cause of this....

Fredster,

Let me try to explain it to you in more muted tones.  A church has a congregation of people who are predisposed to taking what the church leaders have to say as, well, gospel.  This church in particular is advocating the mistrust, xenophobia and hatred of a huge group of people (by 2015 muslims will outnumber christians worldwide). 

Your post justified the behavior of the church leaders based on an atrocious act that 99.99999999999999999% of muslims not only had nothing to do with, but personally condemn.  And the act you attempted to exploit as justification for the offensive and dangerous message being promulgated by the church happens to be one that many Americans are justifiably a little bit emotional about.

Not only was your post offensive, but the idea that muslims in general are to be hated and mistrusted based on 9/11 is naive, illogical and dangerous.  The logic is akin to using the D.C. area sniper shootings from a couple years ago as justification for the message promulgated by the KKK.


And I'm still waiting for that 5 to 1 ratio that shows that Muslim leaders support the measures bin Laden took on 9/11.  Once again, according to you anyway, they should be off the top of your head if possible.

[ChadTower]

Let me try to explain it to you in more muted tones.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Actually, what I'm doing is commenting on the futility and uselessness of rioting in your own area when someone does something you may not like in another part of the world.  My riot was not productive or useful in any way.  The riots over the Koran were not either.

That's funny, from what I remember the rioting in Afghanistan brought national and world attention to their anger over the mistreatment of the Koran; an immediate response from the White House and international scrutiny over the continued handling of their revered holy book, which I can bet you will be handled much more delicately in the future. The riots also led to the allegations being investigated by the F.B.I, which will most likely continue to investigate until someone is prosecuted or discharged.

How were they *not* successful?

The fact that 15 people died is most likely inconsequential to the rioters, as the treatment of their book supersedes their sense of self-preservation. And anyhow, they were shot by police, not exactly something they planned.

mrC

[ChadTower]

That's funny, from what I remember the rioting in Afghanistan brought national and world attention to their anger over the mistreatment of the Koran; an immediate response from the White House and international scrutiny over the continued handling of their revered holy book, which I can bet you will be handled much more delicately in the future. The riots also led to the allegations being investigated by the F.B.I, which will most likely continue to investigate until someone is prosecuted or discharged.

How were they *not* successful?

The fact that 15 people died is most likely inconsequential to the rioters, as the treatment of their book supersedes their sense of self-preservation. And anyhow, they were shot by police, not exactly something they planned.

Attention does not guarantee change.  Ultimately, nothing will change as a result of those riots except for the families that lost loved ones.  It didn't come across well at all.  It looked more like an overtired child throwing a tantrum at the park than it did as a viable protest worth heeding.  Only those people who were already looking for such protests actually bothered with it.

[shmokes]

Actually, what I'm doing is commenting on the futility and uselessness of rioting in your own area when someone does something you may not like in another part of the world.  My riot was not productive or useful in any way.  The riots over the Koran were not either.

Someday someone is going to google my name and find the Meter of Mediocre Moderation.

I didn't drink the coffee while I was rioting, I drank it before I rioted.  I thought I stated that clearly.  One must be caffeinated to pull of a solo riot.

Your own area differs greatly from their area.  You do not live in an occupied country.  If I'm not mistaken there were a number of Americans killed in those riots.  It's easy to sit here comfortably in the richest nation in the world and talk about how nonsensicle it is to riot, but your circumstances aren't even remotely like theirs.  There is a great deal of poverty and hopelessness there.  They are a muslim country with christian occupiers who don't always appear to have their best interests in mind.  They live in fear on a daily basis of violence from Warlords or violence from Americans if they ally themselves with Warlords or just petty street violence because they live in a largely lawless country.  The tension and fear and paranoia and stress is extrememly high. 

You weren't born superior to these people, Chad.  They weren't born with the "let's have illogical riots" gene.  You simply enjoy different circumstances and a different level of security than them.  So go out onto your cut lawn in front of your mansion (by world standards) and try not to trip on one of your automatic sprinkler heads or do any damage to the car parked in your driveway, and have your little riot.  Wave hello to your wife as she returns from the grocery store with two weeks worth of gormet food, and have fun ridiculing people that you are astronomically more fortunate than for no reason other than pure luck.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Attention does not guarantee change.  Ultimately, nothing will change as a result of those riots except for the families that lost loved ones.  It didn't come across well at all.  It looked more like an overtired child throwing a tantrum at the park than it did as a viable protest worth heeding.  Only those people who were already looking for such protests actually bothered with it.

You are coming off more and more like Marie Antoinette, with her supposed "let them eat cake" comment.

We all know how well her condescension worked for her and even though we are not talking about exactly the same circumstances, you keep practice nonetheless! I am absolutely confident you can achieve the same results.

mrC

[ChadTower]

You weren't born superior to these people, Chad.

[ChadTower]

You are coming off more and more like Marie Antoinette, with her supposed "let them eat cake" comment.

That is a very, very poor simile.  I am not a leader, an aristocrat, or someone to whom people need to abide.  Sure, this comparison looks pretty, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[shmokes]

That's right, I am lucky enough to have been born in a place where millions of men before me have died to provide me with what I now have.  How many millions of Iraqis and/or Afghanistanis died when they did it in those countries?

That don't make no sense

[ChadTower]

That's right, I am lucky enough to have been born in a place where millions of men before me have died to provide me with what I now have.

[fredster]

Shmokes,

Not only was your post offensive, but the idea that muslims in general are to be hated and mistrusted based on 9/11 is naive, illogical and dangerous.

In what way?  Was there a jewish guy in the hijackers??? Maybe a pentecostal? No.  There wasn't.

What's offensive? Pointing out why we are in the war on terror? Pointing out how Bush has fought for the security of the US and not cowering to them?

And I'm still waiting for that 5 to 1 ratio that shows that Muslim leaders support the measures bin Laden took on 9/11.

Geeze, I lost my arabic dictionary to be able to translate. You can google search it too.  No problem.
Here's a prime example of it - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=854&get=last

Your post justified the behavior of the church leaders based on an atrocious act that 99.99999999999999999% of muslims not only had nothing to do with, but personally condemn

Aren't you the one that said that muslim interment camps were okay with you?  That searching arab men between 17 and 45 was a good thing to do?

Or am I totally mistaken?

The point is that my, and your, great fortune has already been paid for.  That is why we have it.  They do not have it because they, and no one in their past, has been willing to pay the price the Americans before us paid.  The US is not in this position by luck or fortune.  We are fortunate as individuals but as a country we have earned what we have.

Well said Chad.

Luck Shmokes? Luck?

It takes a lot of effort to hold this country together.  It has taken a lot of effort to do all that we do.  We have to work at it everyday and be ever vigilant in watching it.  That's why Bush is doing what he's doing. 

[shmokes]

Yes, you are mistaken.  I most certianly did not say that muslim interment camps were okay.  Same goes for the racial profiling.

In what way?  Was there a jewish guy in the hijackers??? Maybe a pentecostal? No.  There wasn't.

What's offensive? Pointing out why we are in the war on terror? Pointing out how Bush has fought for the security of the US and not cowering to them?

Fred, the war on terror is a war against terrorists, not a war against islam (or at least it shouldn't be a war against islam).  Was there a single person involved with the D.C. sniper shootings who was not black?  Does that mean we should go on a holy war against blacks?  Just because all 9/11 terrorists were muslims doesn't mean that all muslims are terrorists.  All A are B does not equal All B are A.  For Exampe.  All Cats are Animals.  It doesn't go the other way.

And that's nice, your single example of how arab LEADERS support bin Laden's actions on 9/11 at a 5 to 1 ratio is a post from a newbie to the conspiracy theory section of an internet message board.  Are you incapable of admitting when maybe you spoke to soon?

And yes, luck, Freddy, luck.  Chad didn't have anything to do with making America what it is today.  Niether did I.  But I, like Chad, was lucky enough to be born here.

[Grasshopper]

That's right, I am lucky enough to have been born in a place where millions of men before me have died to provide me with what I now have.  How many millions of Iraqis and/or Afghanistanis died when they did it in those countries?

That don't make no sense

 

The point is that my, and your, great fortune has already been paid for.  That is why we have it.  They do not have it because they, and no one in their past, has been willing to pay the price the Americans before us paid.  The US is not in this position by luck or fortune.  We are fortunate as individuals but as a country we have earned what we have.

That's a rather dubious line of reasoning. You don't get to choose your ancestors, and you certainly have no control over how they behaved.

In any case the wealth of the US and other developed countries is not simply based on the hard work and sacrifice of our forefathers. It's also based on greed and exploitation. I'll give you two obvious examples (there are many others). Firstly the slave trade .Secondly, the way the native Americans were almost wiped out as European settlers grabbed their land and resources.

[ChadTower]

It takes a lot of effort to hold this country together.

[ChadTower]

That's a rather dubious line of reasoning. You don't get to choose your ancestors, and you certainly have no control over how they behaved.

That's how hard work works.  You work hard, and you benefit from it.  You work well enough and those you care about benefit from it.  That's life anywhere on this planet.

In any case the wealth of the US and other developed countries is not simply based on the hard work and sacrifice of our forefathers. It's also based on greed and exploitation. I'll give you two obvious examples (there are many others). Firstly the slave trade .Secondly, the way the native Americans were almost wiped out as European settlers grabbed their land and resources.

That's better than what happens in most other places, where one family reaps all of the rewards and dictates a country into third world poverty while they live in obscene luxury.  Here a nation was built, most places it's just violent and oppressive dictatorships.

[Avery]

In what way?

[shmokes]

The price for my fortune and that of my children has been well paid by my family.

Chad, I didn't say you have no right to your wealth.  That's beside the point.  I simply said that you were lucky to be born into it.  As will your children be lucky for the same reason.  It's luck.  You had nothing to do with being born in America.  It's just the hand you were dealt.

[ChadTower]

Chad, I didn't say you have no right to your wealth.

[Fat_Trucker]

Just to chuck another little bit in here, bear in mind that the only image of Islam that is generally portrayed to the West is related to extremists and what they are doing over there.

It has been my good fortune to meet many Muslim people and families both here and in their native countries and apart from some cultural and religious differences they are no different in their temperament and aspirations to people in the West.
Mainly they want to live in peace and prosperity and see their children educated and provided for exactly the same as we do. Unfortunately their culture and their religion suffers from extremely prejudicial reporting and demonisation in the Western Media so many people view anyone who follows Islam as an Extremist nutcase. This simply isn't the case.

Part of the problem is that post 9/11 people don't seem to be able to seperate the Religion from the Terrorism (this plays right into the hands of the extremists as it supports the alienation of Asian and Islamic people by Western Countries and adds weight to their propoganda and recruitment regimes). The Western press continue to re-inforce these stereotypes and so the situation continues.

You would probably be surprised to find that almost as many Asians would like to see the terrorists destroyed as Americans do and with just as much passion (many of these communities have been living with brutality and fear at the hands of these people for years before the West became involved).

Another stark fact is that as much as politicians may posture and bluster the simple fact is that there aren't enough resources on the planet for everyone on Earth to enjoy the luxuries and quality of life that we do in the West so it stands to reason that at some level they have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. The simple science behind it shows that for developing countries to grow then developed countries must compromise by the same margin. How many people would be willing to give up things that they take for granted so that someone in another country can enjoy them instead. Ok so its a lot more complicated than that but in essence that is the general situation.

A white protestant guy blew up the Federal Building in Oaklahoma, ergo we must round up all the white protestant guys.

[fredster]

Shmokes,

Islamic fundamentalism is widespread.  Who brought down the planes at the Moscow airport a few weeks ago?  Who took the school and all those kids hostage (and subsequently killed, what, 300 of them)?  Who blew up the train in Spain?  Who blew up the World Trade Center?  Who blows up buses and cafes in Israel on a near daily basis?

Do you think this is just some GIGANTIC AND IMPROBIBLE COINCIDENCE?  You think these are just randomly bad people who JUST HAPPEN to all be Muslim?  Have you never noticed that Non-muslim middle easterners (of which there really are many) have not attacked us.....EVER?  On the contrary; it's not the people, my friend, it's the religion.

To not watch a group of people who are actively indocrinated to have a murderous hatred for the west simply because the group is a "religion" is to live in fairy land. 

Here's a newsflash: it's possible for religion to be the problem. Anybody who thinks that all these people are fighting for is territory or autonomy or whatnot is a fool.  This is about religion.  When someone brings a war to your door you kinda have to fight it, even if it's a holy-war.

[ChadTower]

Eh, so there are a lot of Muslims who want to kill... there are a lot of Christians that want to rape your children... what do the buddhists, Jews, what do the other religions do?  It's not only Islam that has become a problem, all religion has become a problem.

Without religion, most wars that have ever happened may not have happened.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

fredster, have you ever met a muslim? (just curious)

[fredster]

Yeah, I have.

I think Muslims should be on watch lists.  I think they should be profiled.

I don't like muslims.  I don't buy this, "Not all Muslims are like that," stuff either.  I don't like the KKK.  And I don't like anyone who would claim membership in the KKK even if they don't believe that blacks should be attacked.  Muslims who don't like what the muslim faith encourages its believers to do ought to have the sense to quit being muslims.   That said, I don't think someone should be profiled simply for being of middle-eastern descent.  I see that difference as significant.  If known KKK members were profiled near black civil-rights rallies I wouldn't see that as racial profiling.  If someone wants to be a member of an organization that preaches hatred and murder I think you'd be a damn fool not to keep an eye on them.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Yeah, I have.

I think Muslims should be on watch lists.  I think they should be profiled.

I don't like muslims.  I don't buy this, "Not all Muslims are like that," stuff either.  I don't like the KKK.  And I don't like anyone who would claim membership in the KKK even if they don't believe that blacks should be attacked.  Muslims who don't like what the muslim faith encourages its believers to do ought to have the sense to quit being muslims.   That said, I don't think someone should be profiled simply for being of middle-eastern descent.  I see that difference as significant.  If known KKK members were profiled near black civil-rights rallies I wouldn't see that as racial profiling.  If someone wants to be a member of an organization that preaches hatred and murder I think you'd be a damn fool not to keep an eye on them.

So being muslim is like being in the KKK....you just keep the laughs coming. The tenets of Islam do not profess the same poisonous hatred that the tenets of the Klan do. Again, I really wish you'd look these things up before you posted trash like yours. It'd save you a lot of wasted typing.

I grew up in Deaborn, Michigan...a place that has the highest population of middle eastern people outside of the middle east and I have to say you have no idea what you are talking about. They are some of the nicest people I've ever met, and I'm not saying that just to defend them. Good people.

So where you from, Tennesse? Big population of muslims there? Might you benefit from a little cultural diversity training?


mrC

[Fat_Trucker]

The point you seem to be missing is that it isn't Islam thats the problem. Its the extremist nutcases who twist it and re-interpret it for their own gains.

There has been sectarian strife on an enormous scale in Northern Ireland for hundreds of years. Is this because the Catholic and Protestant religion promote hatred and violence?, or because violent men hijack the religion for their own cause?.
The bible is full of violence and tragedy, thats why so many people have been able to do violence in its name over the years, the same is true of Islam but it doesn't give anyone just cause to condemn an entire faith because of what they see on the news. How many non Muslim people have actually read the Koran?, how can you have a balanced view without having done so?.

It may be on a larger scale in the middle east but its the same issue. To promote wholesale religious hatred is an evil unto itself, its exactly how Hitler was so successful committing genocide against the Jews in WWII.

There have been lots of Terrorist actions in the last few years but these have all been committed by linked groups. Men that number in the hundreds, not hundreds of thousands.
Why is it that this 'evil' religion has only just started committing these atrocities against the west?, mainly because they were fighting a losing battle in the modern world to keep their way of life alive, their own people and most of the muslim population were shunning them as barbaric animals, so they start attacking western targets, then Destroy the World Trade Center and pull the West into war in the Middle East, all of a sudden young otherwise sensible men are queing up to join them again......

[ChadTower]

So being muslim is like being in the KKK....you just keep the laughs coming. The tenants of Islam do not profess the same poisonous hatred that the tenants of the Klan do. Again, I really wish you'd look these things up before you posted trash like yours. It'd save you a lot of wasted typing.

What I hate is when the tenants of Islam won't stop playing their stereo at 3AM and they keep me up all night.  I had bad tenants.

[ChadTower]

How many non Muslim people have actually read the Koran?, how can you have a balanced view without having done so

Are you saying he can't condemn Islam as a whole because so many of them aren't good enough Muslims to have read their own holy book?

[fredster]

I dunno.

[Fat_Trucker]

What I hate is when the tenants of Islam won't stop playing their stereo at 3AM and they keep me up all night.

[ChadTower]

Uh, Fredster, that first shmokes post is word for word, right down to the errors, what you posted here 15 minutes ago... except you didn't quote it, you just posted it as your own.

[fredster]

Yeah, I know.

Wanted to see the reaction .....

[mr.Curmudgeon]

So being muslim is like being in the KKK....you just keep the laughs coming. The tenants of Islam do not profess the same poisonous hatred that the tenants of the Klan do. Again, I really wish you'd look these things up before you posted trash like yours. It'd save you a lot of wasted typing.

What I hate is when the tenants of Islam won't stop playing their stereo at 3AM and they keep me up all night.  I had bad tenants.

Good one!    I corrected the spelling.

The misspelling must have been a Freudian slip, since I've once again been dealing with the neighbor chicks, and their dog.....they're moving out!!  yeah! 

mrC

[Fat_Trucker]

Are you saying he can't condemn Islam as a whole because so many of them aren't good enough Muslims to have read their own holy book?

No, what I am saying is that many non-muslim people are happy to suck up the images the media present them and condemn Islam as evil without even knowing what Islam teaches or what it is. They just repeat parrot fashion things they have been fed by the media.

Perhaps if more people understood what the fundamental teaching behind Islam is they would have a better understanding of it. At base its not enormously different to teachings of the Christian and Catholic faith.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, I know.

Wanted to see the reaction .....

ETHICAL BREACH!

[Dexter]

Shmokes,

Islamic fundamentalism is widespread.