Newsweek Allegations

[Santoro]

I hate politcal threads, so isn't normally like me to start my own.

[ChadTower]

Doesn't even matter... Newsweek made a false report, caused riots, and people died.

[missioncontrol]

Doesn't even matter... Newsweek made a false report, caused riots, and people died.

and will continue to make money printing magazines

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Doesn't even matter... Newsweek made a false report, caused riots, and people died.

Why are we supposed to hold a news rag to a higher standard than our own government?

No WMD, forged documents, fixed intel...and I hear some people died?!
mrC

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Not to ruin the party here, but the allegation of Koran desecration, specifically the kind that involves the use of a toilet in the act, pre-dates the Newsweek article in no less than four various publications, featuring multiple sources.

The trouble for Newsweek began when the specific source used by Isikoff for the Newsweek article only changed his tune after heat came down from the Pentagon, and only then did the say he couldn't remember which specific military action report he read it in, never that it wasn't true. It's important to note that the actual claim that Koranic desecration had actually taken place has never officially been denied by the Pentagon. It's also important to note that Isikoff's article was vetted by the Pentagon days before it was ever published, and they did not object to this claim of abuse. Later still, the chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff said, in the days before the White House became involved, "that he has been told that the Jalalabad, Afghanistan, rioting was related more to the ongoing political reconciliation process in Afghanistan than anything else".

Basically, Newsweek is being blamed for reporting the truth we all know. Torture had taken place at Abu Gharib in Iraq, and it has been taking place at Gitmo, some of it most likely involving the desecration of Islam's most holy icon. It seems to me that this latest "scandal" involving Newsweek is just the latest attempt by this administration and it's supporters to pin the blame for the civil unrest, limitless destruction, and rampant inflamed Anti-Americanism in the middle east on anybody else but to whom it truly belongs.

mrC

[Dartful Dodger]

latest attempt by this administration and it's supporters to pin the blame for the civil unrest, limitless destruction, and rampant Anti-Americanism in the middle east on anybody else but to whom it truly belongs.

The middle east loved us before this administration.

Well except for the guys who tried to blow up the world trade center during Clinton's administration, or the guys that kidnapped those Americans during Carter's administration...

Mr C is not responsible for Anti-Americanism in the middle east, all he's doing is looking at the grid girls thread when he's not claiming that religions are for the uneducated masses...

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Well except for the guys who tried to blow up the world trade center during Clinton's administration, or the guys that kidnapped those Americans during Carter's administration...

or the guys funded by Reagan in Afghanistan (Bin Laden) and trained by his C.I.A., who have since gone on to establish Al Qaeda.

As usual, you fail to address my post, instead choosing to whine about partisan attacks that are easily defused with additional information that you (not so cleverly) choose to leave out (see above) because they don't support your (very same) partisan attack. So I'm just going to assume you can't show any evidence to refute me and we'll all move along to discussing the matter at hand.

Koran desecrations involving the use of toilets had been reported *before* Newsweek's article. Multiple times.

mrC

[Crazy Cooter]

So. if Islam is truly not a violent religion, what accounts for this? Is violence in the culture, as opposed to the religion?

[Dartful Dodger]

You claimed that this administration is causing

[danny_galaga]

"you supply the pictures, and i'll supply the war"- william randolph hearst.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

You claimed that this administration is causing

[DrewKaree]

MrC, I cleaned up your phrasing a bit to make it truthful.  I figured the blinders were making it hard to type.  It's a bit old, which makes me wonder how you could remember it, but I guess you ran it through the Wayback Machine before posting.  Not hard to believe you missed the mark by so much, but thankfully we're around to help get your version of the truth back on track. 

In the future, try and let us know before posting such quantities....we'll be sure to know to wear boots before treading about.

Not to ruin the party here, but the allegation of Saddam posessing weapons, specifically WMD's, the kind used on his own people, was known and accepted intelligence agencies worldwide, which would feature multiple sources.

The trouble for the Bush administration began when willful ignorance of the numerous sources didn't cause Bush to change his tune due to heat from the media, and only after realizing this did the media decide it didn't matter what specific military action report they may be allowed to read it in, they couldn't possibly allow that this could possibly be true. It's important to note that the actual claim of WMD's wasn't the primary, nor ONLY reason given, but Dems never let that stop them from officially denying it.  It's also important to note that Bush's speech giving his reasons was and can be vetted by anyone interested in reading with their own eyes what was actually said, but to do so may cause them to not object to this particular claim.

Basically, the Bush administration is being blamed for acting on a truth nations around the globe all knew. Torture had taken place in Iraq, and it has been taking place at Sadaam's whims, some of it involving the WMD's on Iraq's people  It seems to me that "scandal" involving the Bush administration is just an attempt by the divisive opposition who care so little about applying the same standards to their past judgements as they are to current actions that would require an inordiant amount of ignorance to believe WOULDN'T cause civil unrest, limitless destruction, and rampant inflamed Anti-Americanism in the middle east which no doubt would be attempted to pin upon on anybody else but to whom it truly belongs, the "reporter" in question.

As usual, I've instead chosen to whine and offer partisan attacks that are easily defused with additional information that I (not so cleverly) choose to appear ignorant on (see above) because they don't support my (very same) partisan attack. So you'll have to assume I could care less about any evidence to refute me and we'll all move along to discussing the matter at hand.

Bush acted on intelligence reports involving Iraq's WMD's which *OTHER* nations believed to be true.  Multiple nations

mrC
/quote]

Are you ill?  I hear a hacking cough there.   Decide what standards you want to apply, but apply them to everyone.  Inventing excuses for reporters who give information 180 degrees from intelligence report(er)s that gets people killed makes it sound like you just don't agree with certain reports because of what party they came from.

There's nothing Newsweek should apologize for.  They pointed out something America should have known about how radical middle eastern folks long ago.  Unfortunately, America REQUIRES stories like these to remind them of this knowledge.

[Crazy Cooter]

Drew I withdrew your boldness and applied it to the topic at hand.

the allegation of the Koran flushing, was known and accepted to media agencies worldwide, which was featured in multiple sources.

...and the next...

Newsweek acted on media reports involving topics which *OTHER* media outlets believed to be true.  Multiple nations

Check and mate.

[DrewKaree]

I fixed that for you brudda!

Drew I withdrew your boldness and applied it to the topic at hand. Check and mate.

....but I thought you were gonna keep it a secret?  I mean, I don't care, but once your fetish gets out......

[jbox]

I think most would agree this is true.  So. if Islam is truly not a violent religion, what accounts for this? Is violence in the culture, as opposed to the religion?  Can they be separated??

Sure, if you take religion to be the conclusions obtained from merely accepting the truth of a particular statement; while culture is merely the adoption of the habits of our parents via immitation. You can make your culture religous, and you can build a religous culture (eg. RCC), but there is such a thing as a non-religous culture, which is that aspect of your every day life that is *convienient* rather than *unexplainable*. 

Not shooting people walking down the street doesn't need religion to explain any more than you not jumping up and grabbing a falling star does. However, when a culture regresses to a level where the employment of logic is considered a sin, and people are no longer of value unless they agree with you, then you have a big mud bath that will take decades to wallow out of. 

The article does seem to be a rather long winded rehash of the well known principle that most people start with an opinion and then look for facts... 

[Crazy Cooter]

However, when a culture regresses to a level where the employment of logic is considered a sin, and people are no longer of value unless they agree with you, then you have a big mud bath that will take decades to wallow out of.

[fredster]

The article does seem to be a rather long winded rehash of the well known principle that most people start with an opinion and then look for facts... 

I totally agree with that.

Most, if not all, of your postings reflect this principle.

NEWSWEEK LIED PEOPLE DIED

[saint]

Well, not to sound too tree-huggerish, but I'd be more inclined to post it this way:

Newsweek screwed up, people died.

"Newsweek lied" implies they deliberately printed a false story. I am extremely dismayed by this story, but I don't think it comes up to the level of them deciding to deliberately inflame the populace by fabricating a story. I think they jumped on something they thought was pertinent/newsworthy/juicy/insert-word-of-your-choice-here and got it wrong.

The article does seem to be a rather long winded rehash of the well known principle that most people start with an opinion and then look for facts... 

I totally agree with that.

Most, if not all, of your postings reflect this principle.

NEWSWEEK LIED PEOPLE DIED

[ChadTower]

Well, not to sound too tree-huggerish, but I'd be more inclined to post it this way:

Newsweek screwed up, people died.

I partially agree.  I think it's more like:

Newsweek ignored the most basic tenets of journalism ethics, people died.

[Crazy Cooter]

I partially agree. I think it's more like:

Newsweek ignored the most basic tenets of journalism ethics, people died.

The biggest issue I have is who is demanding Newsweek apologize.

Newsweek The US ignored the most basic tenets of journalism ethics the Genva Convention, people died.  People were held prisoner, people are STILL being held prisoner.

It's like me telling someone not to smoke with three lit cigarettes in my mouth.

[ChadTower]

It's like me telling someone not to smoke with three lit cigarettes in my mouth.

Well, the US demanding an apology is a bit dumb, except that it is American soldiers put at graver risk of injury or death.

It's not exactly Newsweek's responsibility that some people outside of their control are being violent... but it IS their responsibility to adhere to some basic ethics of their industry.  Saying that Newsweek is not accountable simply because other organizations are doing bad things doesn't do much more than rationalize.

[Dartful Dodger]

The biggest issue I have is who is demanding Newsweek apologize.

Who is demanding an apology from Newsweek?

[jbox]

jbox has just spouted

I think plenty of people would agree with you I am full of pipe dreams, am dripping with nonsense, and am a no good sprinkler of socialist nonsense. I mean, I'm constantly plumbing the depths of my relationships with the people around me, but only seem to clog up topics by endlessly pumping them with vague ramblings that merely baffle people, damp down the discussion and drain people of any interest in my point of view. Maybe I'd better go back to watching the tube before I tank another perfectly reasonable thread? 

Damn, anyone know how to fit chamfer into a sentance?

[fredster]

Saint,

That was a twist on the "Bush Lied" slogan.

It's the "equivilent outrage" thingie that really doesn't exist.

[Santoro]

Koran desecrations involving the use of toilets had been reported *before* Newsweek's article. Multiple times.

Bringing this back to topic, pretend for a second that this true.

[ChadTower]

No, we riot over sports championships.   

The main cause of the riots is that they can dish it out but can't take it.  They can burn our leaders in effigy, burn American flags, do whatever they want, but if one person somewhere in US space may have dropped their book in a toilet men must die.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

MrC, I cleaned up your phrasing a bit to make it truthful. 

If you were really clever you'd come up with your own posts instead of offering up the sloppy second re-writes you're left with. All it does is confuse the issue, making people think I've said things I have not, all while your point remains buried in a steaming pile of your own sanctamonious bull dung.

They pointed out something America should have known about how radical middle eastern folks long ago.

More of your disgusting, "She shouldn't have worn that dress" blame-the-victim mentality. For you, their anger over the desecration of the Koran and the abuse of prisoners at Gitmo, somehow trumps everything else that is wrong about this Newsweek article and the ensuing aftermath. Interesting.


mrC

[ChadTower]

More of your disgusting, "She shouldn't have worn that dress" blame-the-victim mentality. For you, their anger over the desecration of the Koran and the abuse of prisoners at Gitmo, somehow trumps everything else that is wrong about this Newsweek article and the ensuing aftermath. Interesting.

Actually, you're the one rationalizing.  You're rationalizing rioting and fatalities by saying they were forced to do it because of supposed desecration of that book.  That is crap and we all know it.  Sure, desecrating any holy book is a bad thing, but how does that cause a mob of people to murder?  Are these people not responsible for their actions?

Newsweek didn't cause those riots, and desecrating their holy book didn't cause those riots.  The rioters caused those riots and the rioters are the only ones responsible for those riots.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Koran desecrations involving the use of toilets had been reported *before* Newsweek's article. Multiple times.

Bringing this back to topic, pretend for a second that this true.

[ChadTower]

...and based on a lot of the comments in this thread and from what I hearing in the media (re: Newsweek "scandal"), there seems to be a real lack of understanding in this country (U.S.) of the cultural differences between Western and Middle Eastern cultures on a socio-economic scale.

It's more like a lack of giving a crap.  Pull the plug, bring the troops home, and let these people riot themselves silly so long as they do it within their own borders.

I don't see what the economic differences mean in this context, other than that socio-economic is a nice sounding word to use.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

You're rationalizing rioting and fatalities by saying they were forced to do it because of supposed desecration of that book.

No. I am not. I am attempting to "defuse" the rationalization behind the "Newsweek caused the riots" meme. Nothing more. To do so, I naturally have to address what I believe to be the catalyst for the riots (desecration of the Koran) and the root causes that have led up to culmination of this violent display of civil unrest (ie: economy, American foreign policy, sanctioned torture, etc.)

but how does that cause a mob of people to murder?

It doesn't. The rioters were shot by police, from what I understand.

Newsweek didn't cause those riots, and desecrating their holy book didn't cause those riots.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

It's more like a lack of giving a crap.

[Santoro]

Just because Americans are generally either too fat, too lazy, and/or too self-centered to actually be bothered getting angry

God you are presumptuous.

[fredster]

naturally have to address what I believe to be the catalyst for the riots (desecration of the Koran) and the root causes that have led up to culmination of this violent display of civil unrest (ie: economy, American foreign policy, sanctioned torture, etc.)

**groan***

I don't think Newsweek did it on purpose.

[ChadTower]

Crime is criminal... doesn't matter who they are pissed off at, crime is a criminal act and the criminal is the responsible party.

I don't discount it as Arab Rage, I discount it as dumbass rage.  It has nothing to do with being Arab, there are dumbasses everywhere.

[fredster]

Myself, I'd rather heed it as a warning of possible unrest to come and try to come to some understanding of how it may effect our country's interests abroad and at home.

Kind of like when they danced in the streets on 9/11.  Bet they partied all night.

[Dartful Dodger]

Kind of like when they danced in the streets on 9/11.

[ChadTower]

Thanks for reminding us.

[DrewKaree]

They pointed out something America should have known about how radical middle eastern folks long ago.

More of your disgusting, "She shouldn't have worn that dress" blame-the-victim mentality. For you, their anger over the desecration of the Koran and the abuse of prisoners at Gitmo, somehow trumps everything else that is wrong about this Newsweek article and the ensuing aftermath. Interesting.


mrC

Have you lost your mind?  Are you seriously reading these things, or just delving in thinking anyone who doesn't adhere to your ideology has to be wrong, and then try to find a way to prove it?

RADICAL middle eastern folks.  Seriously, I think you look for crap to argue about when you can't figure out whether someone's got a point you might agree with. 

The people getting nuts and KILLING people are anything BUT representative of the general populace.  The people inciting riots and thinking killing folks is ok are RADICALS.

Lemme paint the picture for you sparky, cuz you seem to be under some notion that I'm blaming all those who believe their book to be sacred.  The people interested in giving America a beat-down most definitely would head to these gatherings to whip the crowd into a frenzy, perhaps after everyone's all nuts and not thinking straight, they pop a few of the "you're not holy ENOUGH" people.  It accomplishes two things.  One, it gets rid of one of those infidels who pretend to be as holy as they are.  Two, it's guaranteed to bring MORE attention to something that may or may not be true, and to cause even more problems for America, perhaps hastening their leaving.

I don't think Newsweek was right to spit this story out, as even YOU should be able to figure out it would only cause these reactions, but the problem doesn't lie with Newsweek, it lies with the....follow this now, so you don't get lost again.....RADICAL people who wish to regain power and deal America another blow.

Try and follow along, it'll make it easier on the rest of the class

[DrewKaree]

Alright, you guys asked for it....I got a peek at the next cover of Newsweek.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Strike one for tolerance. I'm waiting for the Christian Coalition to repudiate this.


[link]

[fredster]

Why?

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Why?

I was joking, pointing out that the sign is ironic. But, if you can't see the irony...I don't think I'm capable of explaining it to you. Maybe someone else can.


mrC

[ChadTower]

I had to read that three times before I figured out why the Korean needs to be flushed.

I need my glasses.

[fredster]

MrC,

Oh, I just kinda thought it was 'cause of this....

If you didn't understand that, I guess I'm not capable of explaining that to you either.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

WHAT THE <censored> IS YOUR POINT??? It's OK for Baptist ministers to call for the Koran to be flushed because we were attacked on 9-11?

Btw, If you threw that picture in my face in person...you'd regret it. You're too weak to make a point so you resort to exploiting 9-11, just like your pathetic leader.

Don't think for a minute that I need a reminder of what happened...



mrC

[fredster]

Like I said, if you don't understand that, then I hold little hope I can explain it to you.

It makes all the points I think.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Like I said, if you don't understand that, then I hold little hope I can explain it to you.

It makes all the points I think.

<censored> moron....

[fredster]

I guess you ran out of arguements huh?

What do you care what some backwoods preacher says or posts on a sign in the middle of nowhere?

It's inconsistent with your religious views to care what they say.

I'm waiting for the Christian Coalition to repudiate this.

We are still waiting on the Muslim Coalition to repudate my pic....

[Dartful Dodger]

<censored>

FREDSTER WON!!!

[ChadTower]

That got odd pretty quickly.  Is Mr C drunk or something?

[fredster]

That got odd pretty quickly.  Is Mr C drunk or something?

Nah, just a sore loooosssseerrrrr..

[ChadTower]

Nah, just a sore loooosssseerrrrr..

Eh, the whole "it's all because of 9-11" argument is pretty easy to counter with the general Liberal "cause and effect" argument.  I've even seen him use it.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I guess you ran out of arguements huh?

What do you care what some backwoods preacher says or posts on a sign in the middle of nowhere?

It's inconsistent with your religious views to care what they say.

I'm waiting for the Christian Coalition to repudiate this.

We are still waiting on the Muslim Coalition to repudate my pic....

Yeah fredster...*I* ran out of arguments, so *I* went ahead and posted a picture of one of the most horrific attacks on innocent civilians in our nations history. It's tramatic and uneccesary...and for you to act as if *anyone* needs a reminder is pathetic and insulting.

Btw, Muslims around the world *did* repudiate the attacks. There is no "muslim coalition" but some of the highest muslim scholars stood by America's side after the attacks. But with your limited "us" against "them" mentality I'm not suprised you're ignorant of that fact.

Thanks for derailing what was a reasonable argument with your irresponsible emotional appeal.
I guess when you don't have anything to say, a big picture of the flaming towers certainly covers that up fairly well.

mrC

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Nah, just a sore loooosssseerrrrr..

Eh, the whole "it's all because of 9-11" argument is pretty easy to counter with the general Liberal "cause and effect" argument.  I've even seen him use it.

So in your world....9-11 exists in a hypothetical "vaccum"? Just a completely random attack? Absolutely no "cause and effect". Interesting.

So, in essense, the "cause and effect" argument is effectively countered with the "they're just crazy terrorists who hate little Ole' innocent America argument."

mrC

[fredster]

Btw, Muslims around the world *did* repudiate the attacks. There is no "muslim coalition" but some of the highest muslim scholars stood by America's side after the attacks. But with your limited "us" against "them" mentality I'm not suprised you're ignorant of that fact.

Yeah, name one.

I guess when you don't have anything to say, a big picture of the flaming towers certainly covers that up fairly well.

Or, I could have just said :

F*ck you moron....

That was good huh?

Come on Dude.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Btw, Muslims around the world *did* repudiate the attacks. There is no "muslim coalition" but some of the highest muslim scholars stood by America's side after the attacks. But with your limited "us" against "them" mentality I'm not suprised you're ignorant of that fact.

Yeah, name one.

2 secs. on Google. As I've said before, your limited "world view" disallows for this reality, so you never even thought of looking. I guess it's easier for you to hate them if you continue to ignore these facts.

http://islam.about.com/cs/currentevents/a/9_11statements.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/11/madrid.anniversary/
http://www.cair-florida.org/ViewArticle.asp?Code=AA&ArticleID=135
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

[ChadTower]

So in your world....9-11 exists in a hypothetical "vaccum"? Just a completely random attack? Absolutely no "cause and effect". Interesting.

So, in essense, the "cause and effect" argument is effectively countered with the "they're just crazy terrorists who hate little Ole' innocent America argument."

Once again, and you do this every time I say something it seems, you are putting statements into my post that are not there.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

That got odd pretty quickly.  Is Mr C drunk or something?

Not odd...I just can't stand people who think it's perfectly reasonable to throw pictures of 9-11 around to make a point, as if somehow, the rest of us complete forgot about one of the most tramatic attacks visited upon our nation. Nothing pisses me off more, and makes me want to pummel somebody more than when they stand on the towers like they're some sort of soapbox for their twisted, bigoted ideologies. The news networks have practiced a self-imposed moratorium on broadcasting the smoking towers out of respect for the dead and their families and because it has proven to be highly tramatic to viewers, as it helps perpetuate a sort of continued national PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder).

It's a highly emotionally charged bit of imagery that detracts from civil debate by clouding the arena with extreme responses. Most likely that is fredsters intent.

To think that just because someone is on the other side of an argument, that they were/are somehow not as effected by 9-11, is extremely insulting and deluded.

mrC

[ChadTower]

And let me tell you, it was a glorious bit of intelligence to react that way and provide a 2 second way to set you off into ban me land.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Once again, and you do this every time I say something it seems, you are putting statements into my post that are not there.  I put no opinion into that post whatsoever.

The text of my statement was a simple observation of the way these discussions usually go.  I'm getting tired of telling you not to put words in my posts.

Most of my response was in the form of a question. Maybe you missed that. Or maybe you're just generally playing Devil's Advocate, without really wanting a reply.

Either way, maybe it'd be better if you actually *said* something rather than insinuiating broad generalities, then leaving it up for so much interpretation.

You play this game a *lot*...The I'm mister "independent", not really saying what I'm saying guy. I'm just as tired of working to figure out what you are trying to get at as you are of me "putting words in your posts."

Eh, the whole "it's all because of 9-11" argument is pretty easy to counter with the general Liberal "cause and effect" argument.  I've even seen him use it.

So with this statement, you weren't implying anything? Just serving the public trust here at the Ole' BYAOC by analyzing my techniques? 

It seems to me like good ol' boy, holier-than-thou condescension. You even assign the argument a political label as if it's some sort of liability (ie: the Liberal argument)...like the only people who find a causal relationship between events that led up to the 9-11 attacks are liberals.

Ok, in other words, here's the deal...if you make an effort to actually say what you mean, I won't have to guess so much.

mrC

[fredster]

Yeah.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

And let me tell you, it was a glorious bit of intelligence to react that way and provide a 2 second way to set you off into ban me land.

Whatever. There are particular things that bother me, and getting banned wouldn't be the worst thing that could happen. The worst thing that could happen would be if fredster were in striking distance when he flashed that 9-11 picture in my face.

It's the principle of the thing.


mrC

[fredster]

That's a #2.
Moral high ground thing.  "principles"

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Yeah.  You had to look.  Couldn't think of one off the top.

You actually wrote that?? I've had better arguments with an empty bucket. I'm sure you had to look for that picture of 9-11 too....does that somehow mean it didn't happen?

[mr.Curmudgeon]

That's a #2.
Moral high ground thing.  "principles"

Hey, some of us have them...some of us don't.

[fredster]

Do you know anybody that has them?

[ChadTower]

It seems to me like good ol' boy, holier-than-thou condescension. You even assign the argument a political label as if it's some sort of liability (ie: the Liberal argument)...like the only people who find a causal relationship between events that led up to the 9-11 attacks are liberals.

It's more like talking about someone in front of them.  Not quite the same but you're getting the idea.

Ok, in other words, here's the deal...if you make an effort to actually say what you mean, I won't have to guess so much.

What are you, a chick?  Man up, Alice.

[shmokes]

Like I said, if you don't understand that, then I hold little hope I can explain it to you.

It makes all the points I think.

<censored> moron....

Give the guy a break, he still eats glue.  Nevertheless, Mr. C is on the money.

[shmokes]

Want me to find 5:1 that said the opposite?

Why yes, you mean back up your claims with evidence?  That's a fantastic idea. 

Preferably off the top of your head, of course, but if you have to look it up we'll let it slide.

[Dartful Dodger]

I have to work late tonight so I need a good laugh.

Fredster, make Mr C cry again.

[saint]

This thread makes me want to just ban the everything else forum altogether. Somewhere people have drifted from debating ideals to personal attacks and mean spiritedness - on both sides of the political spectrum.

Feh.

[shmokes]

sorry saint

[fredster]

Thank you for your input Shmokes.  It was much appreciated and thoughtful.

Dodger, I don't have the heart to make c cry again.  It would perpetuate a Post Thread Tramatic Stress Disorder (PTTSD).

(I can make up disorders also). 

[Dexter]

FYI gentlemen.....

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0526/guantanamo.html

And straight up, the personal stuff does tarnish the board and serve only to highlight your lack of civility/valid agruements.

It's nice to be nice 

[fredster]

It sure is nice to be nice.

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/605

back at ya Dexter.

[ChadTower]

I riot whenever I see on TV that someone in Iraq is burning our flag or hanging our leaders in effigy.

[Dexter]

It sure is nice to be nice.

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/605

back at ya Dexter.

You'll forgive me if I stick to ACTUAL news channel sites.

From their 'about' page...

"Militant Islam Monitor will aim to provide the informational arsenal necessary to take part in the struggle against militant Islam and terrorism."[quote

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Saint,

This thread makes me want to just ban the everything else forum altogether. Somewhere people have drifted from debating ideals to personal attacks and mean spiritedness - on both sides of the political spectrum.

There are times when people cross the boundaries of decency and pander to the worst elements of human nature in an attempt to further their own crass ideologies, and there are times when they deserve to be called out for it. I believe this is one of those times.

When you took down pictures that I've posted of wounded soldiers in Iraq, I understood, and if, in an attempt to show a causal relationship between the events leading to the 9-11 attacks, I chose to post pictures of slaughter Afghanis, killed in the civil unrest after they no longer served U.S. interests, or of Iraqi children starved to death because of sanctions and Iraqi babies mutated by Depleted Uranium left over from the first Gulf War, I understand that they'd surely be taken down as well. Yet, pictures of passenger jets full of innocent people crashing into buildings full of innocent people is "okey dokey", I'm at a loss. Is "blood" the standard of the day? Or is it ok to show because this disaster happened to "us"?

We've all seen images/video of the 9-11 attacks hundreds of times. I will not stand by as fredster callously claims this event as his own personal tragedy.

Thank you for your input Shmokes.  It was much appreciated and thoughtful.

You know the harsh reality, most likely, is that your flippant use of images of 9-11 to bolster an already irrelevant argument shows a complete lack of understanding for the severity and absolute tragedy of the event itself. You could care less that it actually happened, only that it helps justify your horribly xenophobic and jingoistic nature.

It probably hurt your "pride" more than your heart and soul. I, on the other hand, have enough compassion for people (even those I completely disagree with) to understand that they probably felt some of the collective trauma we all experienced on that day. I couldn't muster enough gall to so casually use imagery of the attacks in my own personal debating arsenal. People's friends and family members were on those planes and in those buildings. Torn apart, terrified, bloodied, broken and burning. I would also, never assume that just because someone disagrees with me, they somehow didn't "understand" the significance of the attack, nor am I arrogant enough to suggest that they somehow "forgot" the attacks happened.

Your continued disregard for the reverence that image deserves, and your complete enmity, and scorn towards those who feel emotionally effected by it successfully illustrates the disconnect  between your motives and the reality of that day. While you are free to exploit it for some sort of morbid personal gain, it remains beneath contempt and I'd had hoped you were a better man than that.

Scoff all you want, it will only further demonstrates your total disregard for the effects those attacks had on our entire nation, and your complete and total lack of respect for those who died.

I've written you off, you are free to do the same to me...it seems that is what you do best. Now that you've seen fit to accuse me of "forgetting 9-11" I can only communicate through text on a screen how wrong you truly are. But trust me, you go ahead and try that in person to someone like myself and you'll see how vivid our memories really are.

mrC

[ChadTower]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/26/crosses.burned.ap/index.html

I will riot at 10:30, right after my coffee.

[fredster]

C,

While you are free to exploit it for some sort of morbid personal gain, it remains beneath contempt and I'd had hoped you were a better man than that.

No, no, and uh, no.

I think you forgot in the heat of the moment what Gitmo was all about.

[ChadTower]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/26/crosses.burned.ap/index.html

I will riot at 10:30, right after my coffee.

So, I'm back from the rioting.  It went fairly well as I run a good riot.  I kicked a few plants and shouted at a mailbox.  No one was injured.  Next time, I try it with two cups of coffee.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

So, I'm back from the rioting.  It went fairly well as I run a good riot.  I kicked a few plants and shouted at a mailbox.  No one was injured.  Next time, I try it with two cups of coffee.

haha...you are so funny. Hilarious even. Thanks for helping establish the "ChadTower Meter of Mediocre Moderation"; where we use *you*, Chad, as the standard measure for exactly how much righteous indignation we will accept from others, irregardless of the situation.

Let it be declared, from this day forth, that if ChadTower is not upset about a particular issue, so sayith the "ChadTower Meter of Mediocre Moderation", that others may not be upset by it. Furthermore, if they so arrogantly refuse to acknowledge said "Meter" than we are to attempt to "rise above" by engaging in witty ridicule, browbeating those that'd feel differently, as we ruefully sneer down our noses during this all out "ideologically independent" assault.

Might I be so bold as to mention how nice it is to be surrounded by men so much more "centered" and level-headed than the rest of the world. Btw, I hope you enjoyed your coffee. I never imagined one could sow discontent so successfully, all while sipping on a steamy Colombian brew. Do you take milk, or does it make your tummy upset as well?

Given the overall clarity inherent in the "ChadTower Meter of Mediocre Moderation", I can come to no other conclusion than the idea that our country (U.S.) would be so much better off had the framers just had tea (coffee wasn't in fashion then) w/ the British rather than getting all huffy and ill-tempered before throwing it overboard.

mrC
P.S. In case you don't get the satire, *yes* I believe their are times when violent protest is necessary, I take these matters on a case by case basis, standing ready and willing to participate should the need and/or opportunity arise. Our history and our country is founded on it. To write off the discontent of others if arrogant and stupid, to go a step further and make fun of said discontent, is nothing short of dangerous.

Somehow (to tie it back to this thread) I get the feeling that Iraq and possibly Afghanistan will follow in our footsteps (ie: Revolution and/or Civil War). Except now, we are the "Imperialist invaders". You can chortle all you want, it doesn't change the fact that this administration's foreign policy in the Middle East is stoking the flames of Anti-Americanism in ways that will certainly come back to haunt us, much more viciously, and more multitudinously than if things had been handled differently.

Newsweek didn't cause the riots in Afghanistan. The WH has recently retracted it's accusation that it had and the FBI has substantiated the counter argument that the unrest was caused by much more harrowing issues. Exactly as I had claimed in the beginning of the thread.

[ChadTower]

Actually, what I'm doing is commenting on the futility and uselessness of rioting in your own area when someone does something you may not like in another part of the world.  My riot was not productive or useful in any way.  The riots over the Koran were not either.

Someday someone is going to google my name and find the Meter of Mediocre Moderation.

I didn't drink the coffee while I was rioting, I drank it before I rioted.  I thought I stated that clearly.  One must be caffeinated to pull of a solo riot.

[fredster]

You'll forgive me if I stick to ACTUAL news channel sites.

Then please find one that the ACLU or Amnesty International didn't drive the story.

Where are the documents?

[shmokes]

MrC,

Oh, I just kinda thought it was 'cause of this....

Fredster,

Let me try to explain it to you in more muted tones.  A church has a congregation of people who are predisposed to taking what the church leaders have to say as, well, gospel.  This church in particular is advocating the mistrust, xenophobia and hatred of a huge group of people (by 2015 muslims will outnumber christians worldwide). 

Your post justified the behavior of the church leaders based on an atrocious act that 99.99999999999999999% of muslims not only had nothing to do with, but personally condemn.  And the act you attempted to exploit as justification for the offensive and dangerous message being promulgated by the church happens to be one that many Americans are justifiably a little bit emotional about.

Not only was your post offensive, but the idea that muslims in general are to be hated and mistrusted based on 9/11 is naive, illogical and dangerous.  The logic is akin to using the D.C. area sniper shootings from a couple years ago as justification for the message promulgated by the KKK.


And I'm still waiting for that 5 to 1 ratio that shows that Muslim leaders support the measures bin Laden took on 9/11.  Once again, according to you anyway, they should be off the top of your head if possible.

[ChadTower]

Let me try to explain it to you in more muted tones.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Actually, what I'm doing is commenting on the futility and uselessness of rioting in your own area when someone does something you may not like in another part of the world.  My riot was not productive or useful in any way.  The riots over the Koran were not either.

That's funny, from what I remember the rioting in Afghanistan brought national and world attention to their anger over the mistreatment of the Koran; an immediate response from the White House and international scrutiny over the continued handling of their revered holy book, which I can bet you will be handled much more delicately in the future. The riots also led to the allegations being investigated by the F.B.I, which will most likely continue to investigate until someone is prosecuted or discharged.

How were they *not* successful?

The fact that 15 people died is most likely inconsequential to the rioters, as the treatment of their book supersedes their sense of self-preservation. And anyhow, they were shot by police, not exactly something they planned.

mrC

[ChadTower]

That's funny, from what I remember the rioting in Afghanistan brought national and world attention to their anger over the mistreatment of the Koran; an immediate response from the White House and international scrutiny over the continued handling of their revered holy book, which I can bet you will be handled much more delicately in the future. The riots also led to the allegations being investigated by the F.B.I, which will most likely continue to investigate until someone is prosecuted or discharged.

How were they *not* successful?

The fact that 15 people died is most likely inconsequential to the rioters, as the treatment of their book supersedes their sense of self-preservation. And anyhow, they were shot by police, not exactly something they planned.

Attention does not guarantee change.  Ultimately, nothing will change as a result of those riots except for the families that lost loved ones.  It didn't come across well at all.  It looked more like an overtired child throwing a tantrum at the park than it did as a viable protest worth heeding.  Only those people who were already looking for such protests actually bothered with it.

[shmokes]

Actually, what I'm doing is commenting on the futility and uselessness of rioting in your own area when someone does something you may not like in another part of the world.  My riot was not productive or useful in any way.  The riots over the Koran were not either.

Someday someone is going to google my name and find the Meter of Mediocre Moderation.

I didn't drink the coffee while I was rioting, I drank it before I rioted.  I thought I stated that clearly.  One must be caffeinated to pull of a solo riot.

Your own area differs greatly from their area.  You do not live in an occupied country.  If I'm not mistaken there were a number of Americans killed in those riots.  It's easy to sit here comfortably in the richest nation in the world and talk about how nonsensicle it is to riot, but your circumstances aren't even remotely like theirs.  There is a great deal of poverty and hopelessness there.  They are a muslim country with christian occupiers who don't always appear to have their best interests in mind.  They live in fear on a daily basis of violence from Warlords or violence from Americans if they ally themselves with Warlords or just petty street violence because they live in a largely lawless country.  The tension and fear and paranoia and stress is extrememly high. 

You weren't born superior to these people, Chad.  They weren't born with the "let's have illogical riots" gene.  You simply enjoy different circumstances and a different level of security than them.  So go out onto your cut lawn in front of your mansion (by world standards) and try not to trip on one of your automatic sprinkler heads or do any damage to the car parked in your driveway, and have your little riot.  Wave hello to your wife as she returns from the grocery store with two weeks worth of gormet food, and have fun ridiculing people that you are astronomically more fortunate than for no reason other than pure luck.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Attention does not guarantee change.  Ultimately, nothing will change as a result of those riots except for the families that lost loved ones.  It didn't come across well at all.  It looked more like an overtired child throwing a tantrum at the park than it did as a viable protest worth heeding.  Only those people who were already looking for such protests actually bothered with it.

You are coming off more and more like Marie Antoinette, with her supposed "let them eat cake" comment.

We all know how well her condescension worked for her and even though we are not talking about exactly the same circumstances, you keep practice nonetheless! I am absolutely confident you can achieve the same results.

mrC

[ChadTower]

You weren't born superior to these people, Chad.

[ChadTower]

You are coming off more and more like Marie Antoinette, with her supposed "let them eat cake" comment.

That is a very, very poor simile.  I am not a leader, an aristocrat, or someone to whom people need to abide.  Sure, this comparison looks pretty, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[shmokes]

That's right, I am lucky enough to have been born in a place where millions of men before me have died to provide me with what I now have.  How many millions of Iraqis and/or Afghanistanis died when they did it in those countries?

That don't make no sense

[ChadTower]

That's right, I am lucky enough to have been born in a place where millions of men before me have died to provide me with what I now have.

[fredster]

Shmokes,

Not only was your post offensive, but the idea that muslims in general are to be hated and mistrusted based on 9/11 is naive, illogical and dangerous.

In what way?  Was there a jewish guy in the hijackers??? Maybe a pentecostal? No.  There wasn't.

What's offensive? Pointing out why we are in the war on terror? Pointing out how Bush has fought for the security of the US and not cowering to them?

And I'm still waiting for that 5 to 1 ratio that shows that Muslim leaders support the measures bin Laden took on 9/11.

Geeze, I lost my arabic dictionary to be able to translate. You can google search it too.  No problem.
Here's a prime example of it - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=854&get=last

Your post justified the behavior of the church leaders based on an atrocious act that 99.99999999999999999% of muslims not only had nothing to do with, but personally condemn

Aren't you the one that said that muslim interment camps were okay with you?  That searching arab men between 17 and 45 was a good thing to do?

Or am I totally mistaken?

The point is that my, and your, great fortune has already been paid for.  That is why we have it.  They do not have it because they, and no one in their past, has been willing to pay the price the Americans before us paid.  The US is not in this position by luck or fortune.  We are fortunate as individuals but as a country we have earned what we have.

Well said Chad.

Luck Shmokes? Luck?

It takes a lot of effort to hold this country together.  It has taken a lot of effort to do all that we do.  We have to work at it everyday and be ever vigilant in watching it.  That's why Bush is doing what he's doing. 

[shmokes]

Yes, you are mistaken.  I most certianly did not say that muslim interment camps were okay.  Same goes for the racial profiling.

In what way?  Was there a jewish guy in the hijackers??? Maybe a pentecostal? No.  There wasn't.

What's offensive? Pointing out why we are in the war on terror? Pointing out how Bush has fought for the security of the US and not cowering to them?

Fred, the war on terror is a war against terrorists, not a war against islam (or at least it shouldn't be a war against islam).  Was there a single person involved with the D.C. sniper shootings who was not black?  Does that mean we should go on a holy war against blacks?  Just because all 9/11 terrorists were muslims doesn't mean that all muslims are terrorists.  All A are B does not equal All B are A.  For Exampe.  All Cats are Animals.  It doesn't go the other way.

And that's nice, your single example of how arab LEADERS support bin Laden's actions on 9/11 at a 5 to 1 ratio is a post from a newbie to the conspiracy theory section of an internet message board.  Are you incapable of admitting when maybe you spoke to soon?

And yes, luck, Freddy, luck.  Chad didn't have anything to do with making America what it is today.  Niether did I.  But I, like Chad, was lucky enough to be born here.

[Grasshopper]

That's right, I am lucky enough to have been born in a place where millions of men before me have died to provide me with what I now have.  How many millions of Iraqis and/or Afghanistanis died when they did it in those countries?

That don't make no sense

 

The point is that my, and your, great fortune has already been paid for.  That is why we have it.  They do not have it because they, and no one in their past, has been willing to pay the price the Americans before us paid.  The US is not in this position by luck or fortune.  We are fortunate as individuals but as a country we have earned what we have.

That's a rather dubious line of reasoning. You don't get to choose your ancestors, and you certainly have no control over how they behaved.

In any case the wealth of the US and other developed countries is not simply based on the hard work and sacrifice of our forefathers. It's also based on greed and exploitation. I'll give you two obvious examples (there are many others). Firstly the slave trade .Secondly, the way the native Americans were almost wiped out as European settlers grabbed their land and resources.

[ChadTower]

It takes a lot of effort to hold this country together.

[ChadTower]

That's a rather dubious line of reasoning. You don't get to choose your ancestors, and you certainly have no control over how they behaved.

That's how hard work works.  You work hard, and you benefit from it.  You work well enough and those you care about benefit from it.  That's life anywhere on this planet.

In any case the wealth of the US and other developed countries is not simply based on the hard work and sacrifice of our forefathers. It's also based on greed and exploitation. I'll give you two obvious examples (there are many others). Firstly the slave trade .Secondly, the way the native Americans were almost wiped out as European settlers grabbed their land and resources.

That's better than what happens in most other places, where one family reaps all of the rewards and dictates a country into third world poverty while they live in obscene luxury.  Here a nation was built, most places it's just violent and oppressive dictatorships.

[Avery]

In what way?

[shmokes]

The price for my fortune and that of my children has been well paid by my family.

Chad, I didn't say you have no right to your wealth.  That's beside the point.  I simply said that you were lucky to be born into it.  As will your children be lucky for the same reason.  It's luck.  You had nothing to do with being born in America.  It's just the hand you were dealt.

[ChadTower]

Chad, I didn't say you have no right to your wealth.

[Fat_Trucker]

Just to chuck another little bit in here, bear in mind that the only image of Islam that is generally portrayed to the West is related to extremists and what they are doing over there.

It has been my good fortune to meet many Muslim people and families both here and in their native countries and apart from some cultural and religious differences they are no different in their temperament and aspirations to people in the West.
Mainly they want to live in peace and prosperity and see their children educated and provided for exactly the same as we do. Unfortunately their culture and their religion suffers from extremely prejudicial reporting and demonisation in the Western Media so many people view anyone who follows Islam as an Extremist nutcase. This simply isn't the case.

Part of the problem is that post 9/11 people don't seem to be able to seperate the Religion from the Terrorism (this plays right into the hands of the extremists as it supports the alienation of Asian and Islamic people by Western Countries and adds weight to their propoganda and recruitment regimes). The Western press continue to re-inforce these stereotypes and so the situation continues.

You would probably be surprised to find that almost as many Asians would like to see the terrorists destroyed as Americans do and with just as much passion (many of these communities have been living with brutality and fear at the hands of these people for years before the West became involved).

Another stark fact is that as much as politicians may posture and bluster the simple fact is that there aren't enough resources on the planet for everyone on Earth to enjoy the luxuries and quality of life that we do in the West so it stands to reason that at some level they have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. The simple science behind it shows that for developing countries to grow then developed countries must compromise by the same margin. How many people would be willing to give up things that they take for granted so that someone in another country can enjoy them instead. Ok so its a lot more complicated than that but in essence that is the general situation.

A white protestant guy blew up the Federal Building in Oaklahoma, ergo we must round up all the white protestant guys.

[fredster]

Shmokes,

Islamic fundamentalism is widespread.  Who brought down the planes at the Moscow airport a few weeks ago?  Who took the school and all those kids hostage (and subsequently killed, what, 300 of them)?  Who blew up the train in Spain?  Who blew up the World Trade Center?  Who blows up buses and cafes in Israel on a near daily basis?

Do you think this is just some GIGANTIC AND IMPROBIBLE COINCIDENCE?  You think these are just randomly bad people who JUST HAPPEN to all be Muslim?  Have you never noticed that Non-muslim middle easterners (of which there really are many) have not attacked us.....EVER?  On the contrary; it's not the people, my friend, it's the religion.

To not watch a group of people who are actively indocrinated to have a murderous hatred for the west simply because the group is a "religion" is to live in fairy land. 

Here's a newsflash: it's possible for religion to be the problem. Anybody who thinks that all these people are fighting for is territory or autonomy or whatnot is a fool.  This is about religion.  When someone brings a war to your door you kinda have to fight it, even if it's a holy-war.

[ChadTower]

Eh, so there are a lot of Muslims who want to kill... there are a lot of Christians that want to rape your children... what do the buddhists, Jews, what do the other religions do?  It's not only Islam that has become a problem, all religion has become a problem.

Without religion, most wars that have ever happened may not have happened.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

fredster, have you ever met a muslim? (just curious)

[fredster]

Yeah, I have.

I think Muslims should be on watch lists.  I think they should be profiled.

I don't like muslims.  I don't buy this, "Not all Muslims are like that," stuff either.  I don't like the KKK.  And I don't like anyone who would claim membership in the KKK even if they don't believe that blacks should be attacked.  Muslims who don't like what the muslim faith encourages its believers to do ought to have the sense to quit being muslims.   That said, I don't think someone should be profiled simply for being of middle-eastern descent.  I see that difference as significant.  If known KKK members were profiled near black civil-rights rallies I wouldn't see that as racial profiling.  If someone wants to be a member of an organization that preaches hatred and murder I think you'd be a damn fool not to keep an eye on them.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Yeah, I have.

I think Muslims should be on watch lists.  I think they should be profiled.

I don't like muslims.  I don't buy this, "Not all Muslims are like that," stuff either.  I don't like the KKK.  And I don't like anyone who would claim membership in the KKK even if they don't believe that blacks should be attacked.  Muslims who don't like what the muslim faith encourages its believers to do ought to have the sense to quit being muslims.   That said, I don't think someone should be profiled simply for being of middle-eastern descent.  I see that difference as significant.  If known KKK members were profiled near black civil-rights rallies I wouldn't see that as racial profiling.  If someone wants to be a member of an organization that preaches hatred and murder I think you'd be a damn fool not to keep an eye on them.

So being muslim is like being in the KKK....you just keep the laughs coming. The tenets of Islam do not profess the same poisonous hatred that the tenets of the Klan do. Again, I really wish you'd look these things up before you posted trash like yours. It'd save you a lot of wasted typing.

I grew up in Deaborn, Michigan...a place that has the highest population of middle eastern people outside of the middle east and I have to say you have no idea what you are talking about. They are some of the nicest people I've ever met, and I'm not saying that just to defend them. Good people.

So where you from, Tennesse? Big population of muslims there? Might you benefit from a little cultural diversity training?


mrC

[Fat_Trucker]

The point you seem to be missing is that it isn't Islam thats the problem. Its the extremist nutcases who twist it and re-interpret it for their own gains.

There has been sectarian strife on an enormous scale in Northern Ireland for hundreds of years. Is this because the Catholic and Protestant religion promote hatred and violence?, or because violent men hijack the religion for their own cause?.
The bible is full of violence and tragedy, thats why so many people have been able to do violence in its name over the years, the same is true of Islam but it doesn't give anyone just cause to condemn an entire faith because of what they see on the news. How many non Muslim people have actually read the Koran?, how can you have a balanced view without having done so?.

It may be on a larger scale in the middle east but its the same issue. To promote wholesale religious hatred is an evil unto itself, its exactly how Hitler was so successful committing genocide against the Jews in WWII.

There have been lots of Terrorist actions in the last few years but these have all been committed by linked groups. Men that number in the hundreds, not hundreds of thousands.
Why is it that this 'evil' religion has only just started committing these atrocities against the west?, mainly because they were fighting a losing battle in the modern world to keep their way of life alive, their own people and most of the muslim population were shunning them as barbaric animals, so they start attacking western targets, then Destroy the World Trade Center and pull the West into war in the Middle East, all of a sudden young otherwise sensible men are queing up to join them again......

[ChadTower]

So being muslim is like being in the KKK....you just keep the laughs coming. The tenants of Islam do not profess the same poisonous hatred that the tenants of the Klan do. Again, I really wish you'd look these things up before you posted trash like yours. It'd save you a lot of wasted typing.

What I hate is when the tenants of Islam won't stop playing their stereo at 3AM and they keep me up all night.  I had bad tenants.

[ChadTower]

How many non Muslim people have actually read the Koran?, how can you have a balanced view without having done so

Are you saying he can't condemn Islam as a whole because so many of them aren't good enough Muslims to have read their own holy book?

[fredster]

I dunno.

[Fat_Trucker]

What I hate is when the tenants of Islam won't stop playing their stereo at 3AM and they keep me up all night.

[ChadTower]

Uh, Fredster, that first shmokes post is word for word, right down to the errors, what you posted here 15 minutes ago... except you didn't quote it, you just posted it as your own.

[fredster]

Yeah, I know.

Wanted to see the reaction .....

[mr.Curmudgeon]

So being muslim is like being in the KKK....you just keep the laughs coming. The tenants of Islam do not profess the same poisonous hatred that the tenants of the Klan do. Again, I really wish you'd look these things up before you posted trash like yours. It'd save you a lot of wasted typing.

What I hate is when the tenants of Islam won't stop playing their stereo at 3AM and they keep me up all night.  I had bad tenants.

Good one!    I corrected the spelling.

The misspelling must have been a Freudian slip, since I've once again been dealing with the neighbor chicks, and their dog.....they're moving out!!  yeah! 

mrC

[Fat_Trucker]

Are you saying he can't condemn Islam as a whole because so many of them aren't good enough Muslims to have read their own holy book?

No, what I am saying is that many non-muslim people are happy to suck up the images the media present them and condemn Islam as evil without even knowing what Islam teaches or what it is. They just repeat parrot fashion things they have been fed by the media.

Perhaps if more people understood what the fundamental teaching behind Islam is they would have a better understanding of it. At base its not enormously different to teachings of the Christian and Catholic faith.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, I know.

Wanted to see the reaction .....

ETHICAL BREACH!

[Dexter]

Shmokes,

Islamic fundamentalism is widespread.

[ChadTower]

Perhaps if more people understood what the fundamental teaching behind Islam is they would have a better understanding of it. At base its not enormously different to teachings of the Christian and Catholic faith.

Yes, it is.

[Fat_Trucker]

Exactly.

More or less what the Christian and Catholic church were up until the early part of this century.

There is no argument that their society is at a more primitive stage than ours but Islam isn't doing or saying anything that Catholicism and Christianity haven't done or said when our society was at a similar stage.

[ChadTower]

Exactly.

More or less what the Christian and Catholic church were up until the early part of this century.

Not really... Christianity is more about obedience, which is a substantially different idea than pure submission.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

It is a religion based on submission.

Agreed!! Catholicism in a nutshell.

Obediance leaves enough room for individual thought and potential rebellion, which is why there are so many splinter factions in Christianity

If it was so open to individual thought, why is there a need for splinter factions in the first place?

[ChadTower]

Agreed!! Catholicism in a nutshell.

Not if you've studied Catholicism with half an effort to understand it.

Look, all three major religions on this planet can be summed up in one word each:

Islam - submission
Christianity - obedience
Judaism - covenant

The history, theology, and behaviours of these religions follow these patterns precisely.  If you compare these three concepts on a simple level, you can begin to understand why they do not mix well at their very core.

[ChadTower]

If it was so open to individual thought, why is there a need for splinter factions in the first place?

It's not entirely open, just open enough that it leaves that door ajar.  It's the difference between crushing someone's spirit and just making them obey you.

[Fat_Trucker]

But the one factor they all share is the human condition.

Why in the face of an occupying non-muslim army are so many more Iraqi's striving to build a democracy than those who are signing up to fight against us?.

Why do so many Muslim families migrate to the largely non-muslim West seeking a better life?.

The sons of Islam are not as submissive as you think.

The modern world and the human condition cannot tolerate brutality and injustice indefinitely and religion will have very little to do with it come the end.

[ChadTower]

Why in the face of an occupying non-muslim army are so many more Iraqi's striving to build a democracy than those who are signing up to fight against us?.

Because we've done the hard work of freeing them for them.

[Fat_Trucker]

I was simply making the point that submissive religion or not, the human condition will make them want to gravitate toward societies that embrace fairness and comfort regardless of what their religion tells them.

They obviously aren't beyond making a few 'personal' choices. After all the decision to leave your whole culture and country for a better life is hardly consistent with someone who is submissive to the point of being brainwashed.

I agree that Islam is a religion based on submission, however I disagree that it removes peoples ability to make choices and that they follow it blindly. Mostly they just suffer from a lack of alternatives.

[shmokes]

Yeah, I know.

Wanted to see the reaction .....

What a difference six months can make, eh?  At least I can hold my ground on the interment camps (I hope anyway).

I think I was still seething over all the dead kids at that russian school at the time and in fear mode.

At any rate, I think my comments you linked to were somewhat short-sighted and simplistic and, unfortunately, pretty persuasive. 

[fredster]

At any rate, I think my comments you linked to were somewhat short-sighted and simplistic and, unfortunately, pretty persuasive. 

That makes my point.  We have forgotten the fear we had and have lulled ourselves into some false sense of security.  That's what the problem is.  We have let ourselves be separated by politics. 

We Forgot about 9/11.

We have always had more in common than we had differences.

And for what it's worth Shmokes, I always have thought your comments were short-sighted and simplistic.  So I agree with you yet again!

[shmokes]

And Fredster, for future reference, you really ought to control your excitement when you're holding a hand like that.  Had you held off on letting the cat out of the bag until I read your posts where you quoted, but didn't reference me, you could have got me going on some big long diatribe of how idiotic all that stuff was.  That's when you should have tipped your hand. 

Then you really would have had me.

p.s.  By the way, is there still a possibility that you are going to link to leaders of Islam who support the 9/11 attacks?  Surely if you were able to use the clunky message board search engine to track down those posts of mine you can spend a few seconds on Google (though, admittedly the payout won't be as high for you).

[shmokes]

And for what it's worth Shmokes, I always have thought your comments were short-sighted and simplistic.  So I agree with you yet again!

Cute.  But I know you secretly want to have my babies.

[Grasshopper]

Heh, I have to admit that was a pretty clever move on Fredster's part.

Never post on an internet board when you're angry, tired, drunk etc. as it will always come back to haunt you. Same applies to emails.

I'm just off to check my old posts to make sure there is nothing incriminating there....

[fredster]

you could have got me going on some big long diatribe of how idiotic all that stuff was

Nah Shmokes. I don't have to go to any trouble to do that, you do that all by your lonesome.

Surely if you were able to use the clunky message board search engine to track down those posts of mine..

It took me 3 seconds to find that.

[ChadTower]

I was simply making the point that submissive religion or not, the human condition will make them want to gravitate toward societies that embrace fairness and comfort regardless of what their religion tells them.

They are doing it now, now that all of the effort and real sacrifice has been taken from it.  Where people from Europe and Russia did it when it was a life risking task, these people wait until it's a simple plane flight and no immigration laws.  That is what I'm trying to say.  They were not motivated enough to do it when the Christians were.

They obviously aren't beyond making a few 'personal' choices. After all the decision to leave your whole culture and country for a better life is hardly consistent with someone who is submissive to the point of being brainwashed.

Brainwashed and broken are not the same thing.

I agree that Islam is a religion based on submission, however I disagree that it removes peoples ability to make choices and that they follow it blindly. Mostly they just suffer from a lack of alternatives.

They always had alternatives.  They could get on a boat/horse/train/walk just like people from other cultures have been doing for 300 years.  They simply weren't doing it because their own culture had them so docile that they didn't see that as an option.  How many stories have you heard out of there that rise to the level of building a raft out of old tree trunks and floating over hundreds of miles of hostile ocean?  People from Cuba do that on a regular basis.

[Crazy Cooter]

I think Muslims should be on watch lists.

[Crazy Cooter]

I'm pulling a Drew and responding twice in a row.

CT, The omish have been living in the US a long time and they choose to retain their "old ways" over the "new ways" of things (like cars ).

Are these people docile or traditional?  They can't be docile by your definition because the youth undergo a transitional period where they can "experiment" and see what is outside their own culture (I forget what it's called).  Then the choose if they want to return to the Amish ways or not.

[ChadTower]

CT, The omish have been living in the US a long time and they choose to retain their "old ways" over the "new ways" of things (like cars ).

Are these people docile or traditional?

[Dexter]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/26/AR2005052601538.html

"Pentagon officials said investigators have identified five incidents of "mishandling" the Koran by military guards and investigators. "

Well worth a read people. And the washington post at that

Newsweek lied people died??

[ChadTower]

So could you explain to us, even if it did happen, why that is worse than burning US flags and hanging our leaders, burning them in effigy, right in public?

[Dexter]

I don't recall mentioning it was worse!

However, if you are going to detain these people under the facade that they're prisoners of war you should at the very least uphold the geneva convention.

Oh, and if the best the apologists for this administrations crimes can do is to say 'well its not as bad as what THEY do to OUR flag/freedom (tm)/prisoners' then you have already become as bad as them.

There is no right way to do the wrong thing. Gitmo is the new Gulag, and the atrocities committed there serve only to strenghten the case of the extremists (ken bigley in the orange jumpsuit anyone??)

[fredster]

Dexter,

Do you even know what a "gulag" is?

[Dexter]

No Fredster, I'm an idiot (sarcasm off)

It is hard to find an accurate comparison to Gitmo mind. But anything that inters humans without proper due process and submits them to torture is going in the right direction.

I'm sure in the future any prison where people are treated like animals whether they are guilty or innocent will be referred to as 'todays guantanamo'. Especially if its controlled by white supremacist warmongers.

[ChadTower]

I don't see any real reason to continue to purport ourselves to be so morally superior to everyone else when clearly our actions prove we are not, and no one is buying it anyway.