Land of the free?

[NIVO]

i feel cheated. A chair in the face, and no Geraldo Rivera around when you need him 

[shmokes]

Shmokes,

Do you also have a degree in child psychology...?  Blah blah....

As usual, Freddy, your argument consists of nothing but a big logical fallacy.  And as usual you rely on your old faithful (consistently ineffective, anyway) ad hominem circumstantial.  Do you really consider your position, or ability to argue it, so weak that the best you can do is claim that the person on the other side has no right to have a position yet?  WTF?  If you don't want to look like a fraud, just start pretending that these perceived circumstantial incongruitites don't exist.  Attack your opponent's positions rather than simply attacking your opponent's character or circumstances.

If it helps there are millions of people with children, including many with degrees in child psychology  , who's position parallels my own.

By the way, putting them (you?) on an island would be enough.  The castration part  is just for fun.

[fredster]

Shmokes,

There are millions of people with children who's opinion mirror's mine also. Many with degrees in Child Psychology.

I have to say that I have heard this before from people with no kids. Two couples that were heavy with child the same time we were talked about not spaking their child, or using pacifiers, quoting out of books they read, Blah Blah.  I thought the same thing.

I laughed when one of them freaked when the "paccy" disappeared and her kid started crying.  It was funny .Last I saw them about 5 years ago, they were spanking their children. They kinda forgot that position once the kids started ripping up their stuff.

You have no position on this Shmokes. You have no experience, you have only an opinion based on whatever fantasy world you live in.  Likely, you are a result of non spanking. This should be a lesson for us all.

 And here is a typical example of "baffling with BS" - Actually talking but saying nothing about something you cannot spell -

"If you don't want to look like a fraud, just start pretending that these perceived circumstantial incongruitites don't exist.  Attack your opponent's positions rather than simply attacking your opponent's character or circumstances."

Actually, One time I had a "perceived circumstantial incongruities"
I had to shave and put suave on it.  It was gone in a week or so. A little penicillin worked wonders too.

As usual, you have no idea what you are talking about and yet continue to speak.  You don't have kids, so I'm afraid your opinion on this is moot.  Come back when you have children.

[saint]

Oh I gotta answer this one...

I have 3 children. 8 years old, 5 years old, and a 16 month old. I have never spanked nor do I expect that I will ever spank my children.

All modesty aside, I am repeatedly told how well behaved my children are. They are never in trouble at school. They are always respectful to adults. They know that is expected of them.

"Do not spank your children" is not the same as "do not discipline your children."

Spanking should be a last resort in my opinion. I've never had to get to that point.  My children are disciplined by my (and my wife's) tone of voice, time outs, and other non-corporal forms of discipline. It's rare that they are necessary too. Not that my children do not need discipline - they are kids after all - it's just not needed very often, and not terribly difficult when it is.

Now - I think a parent should have the right to spank their child (we will assume that it is a spank and not physically abusive).  A dear relative of mine has a child that has a stubborn streak a mile wide. Sometimes, you have to "smack the mule with a 2x4" to get his attention. .... But it's always a last resort.

What I think is sad is parenting (and I'm not attacking anyone's specific parenting here -- I don't know enough about anyone here to do so and frankly if it's not abusive it's none of my business) that has the philosophy that spanking is the first form of discipline. "Spare the rod and spoil the child" is a sadly misunderstood concept. "The Lord is my shepherd. Thy rod and thy staff comfort me." ... Shepherds don't smack the sheep with the rod, they guide them with it. "Spare the rod" doesn't translate to "If you don't spank the kid" it translates to "If you don't guide/discipline the kid."  A child without discipline will go astray - not a child without a smack on the behind will go astray. Spanking isn't required. It should be the last choice in most cases.

Everyone's parenting situation is different of course. If spanking is the only way to keep your kids on the straight and narrow then do what you have to do. I just wonder how many people who are spankers have really tried any other methods first.

I'll pit the behavior of my kids against anyone else's kids anyday.

--- saint



So I don't believe spanking is always or even very-often necessary. I've seen children whose parents spanked as a regular form of discipline, and wasn't impressed that the kids were any better behaved than mine, sometimes worse.

 

Shmokes,

You don't have kids do you?  Do you also have a degree in child psychology Dr. (Shmokes) Spock?

When you and you little lady have a child, come back and talk to us in about 10 years and tell us that.

I could say - People <DON'T> who spank their kids should be castrated and moved to an unpopulated island - Before they have children....

It's not necessary until the child either endangers himself or others, but there are cases it's necessary.  When you get old enough to have your own, you'll see.

[saint]

Oh, for what it's worth. I was a spanked child. Not very often though. One time my dad was dragging me to the bathroom to spank me in a restaurant. We passed some little old ladies on a bench, and I told them "my daddy's gonna spank me." 

Boy did he get the look of death. I was a cute child.

Still got spanked though.

--- saint

[ChadTower]

It's great that your children are that way.  One of my children is a cooperative angel who never has been and probably never will be spanked.  The other... you can scream, you can take things away, you can put him on timeout, you can make him lie face down on the floor for an hour.  He still sometimes does whatever he feels like and will ignore you AS you're disciplining him.  The only way to get through to him when it really matters is a spanking.  That's it.  I've tried everything else a thousand times.  I'm not saying I abuse him, but from time to time a couple whacks on the behind will get his attention when nothing else will.

My brother, as a kid, needed to be spanked.  Oh man did he ever.  He didn't give a CRAP what ANYONE told him.  Teachers, parents, me (I'm 7 years older).  By the time he was 13, half the time the only way to get him to mind was to beat him from one side of the yard to the other.  Sometimes I had to do it myself because there wasn't a male figure there strong enough to do it other than me.  I am 100% convinced if not for some of those fights he'd be in jail or dead right now.  Some kids, boys for the most part, need it to stay in line and adhere to social rules.

[shmokes]

  Likely, you are a result of non spanking. This should be a lesson for us all.

Nope....I'm the result of spanking.  Jesus, that was an easy point to shoot down.

Perhaps you would consider parenting advice from Andrea Yates.  She had five kids.  By your standards I'd guess that puts her at least on par with you.  Hell, if you're an average American that makes her twice the parenting expert that you are.

[DrewKaree]

Oh I gotta answer this one...

I have 3 children. 8 years old, 5 years old, and a 16 month old. I have never spanked nor do I expect that I will ever spank my children

....Spanking should be a last resort in my opinion.

Nowhere, however, did you rule it out.  You simply feel it should be a last resort, and stated that you don't expect you'll do it.  You MAY change your mind in the future, circumstances depending, and therefore have enough sense to not rule it out.

It seems as if shmokes feels (and I'm assuming this due to the severity of his proposal on how to deal with parents who do it) that it cannot be done, and has stated that parents who spank their kids should be castrated and isolated on an island. 

Your oldest is 8.  Careful, that shadowy figure standing outside your window with a dull spoon is shmokes.

I think the stance of castration and isolation is way beyond rational - even if it IS simple hyperbole in an attempt to make his point.  Always saying never ignores that children have a mind of their own that your intended methods simply won't be able to address.

[saint]

Nowhere, however, did you rule it out.  You simply feel it should be a last resort, and stated that you don't expect you'll do it. 

Of course I didn't rule it out. I went out of my way to point out that I thought it was every parent's perogative, if a choice I think is too often used and in poor judgement.  I will say I think way too many people spank their kids because they think the Bible says they should, or spank when they are angry, or use an object such as a belt to smack the kid (why in the hell do you need to hit your kid harder than your open hand can handle?), or cross that line between discipline and abuse. I wonder how many people who use spanking as their primary form of discipline have even tried alternatives (did I ask that already?)...

You MAY change your mind in the future, circumstances depending, and therefore have enough sense to not rule it out.

I try rarely to say never, but I bet I never end up spanking any of my children.

[fredster]

Saint, I hope you don't either. I don't have to now. It only took a couple of times. I didn't like doing it either. Having said that, he had crossed the line I set for him very far.  He knows where the line is at now.

I wonder how many people who use spanking as their primary form of discipline have even tried alternatives (did I ask that already?)...

That is what gives it a stigma. It's too easy for some.
I believe that used often, it looses it's power completely. (sort of like the wife complaining)  Used once or twice, and threatened when necessary, it has much more psychological power.

Shmokes,  I took my parenting advice from Parents. I take monetary advice from people with money. I take medical advice from doctors.  If I want to know how to be an jerk, I'll ask you, okay?

Drew do you think Shmokes ever went to the woodshed?

[DrewKaree]

If I want to know how to be an jerk, I'll ask you, okay?

Drew do you think Shmokes ever went to the woodshed?

That's a paraphrased Seinfeld line if ever I've heard one!

And no, he said he wasn't....and I don't think MrC will EVER have an opinion that differs from his that much that he'll feel the need to givum sum lernin'

[shmokes]

LMAO, of course castration and isolation on an island is beyond rational.  Please, for the love of god, believe that I'm kidding about that.  But the never say never bit is absurd.  I think you could, with all kinds of confidence, say that there are a great many things that you would never do to your children.

It's nothing short of comical when y'all say, "Oh....you just wait.  You say that now, cos you don't have kids.  Blah blah blah."  There are millions of parents who simply do not use physical violence on their children.  The argument might hold some water if such people were extremely rare or, perhaps, if you could show statistically that the products of such nonviolent upbringing were less well-behaved than kids from homes that employ corporal punishment.  That is simply not the case.  I can say that I won't hit my kids the same as I can say that I won't molest them.  Ever.

I can't wait for Fred's response:

"Shmokes, you say you won't molest your kids now, but that's because you have no kids.  Your opinion on the virtues of child molestation is moot.  When you have kids you'll see just how difficult it is not to molest them."   

The problem with relying on logical fallacies, Fred, is that they are so easy to shoot down.  Even when you're right you'll be undone in an argument every time if you support your opinion with faulty logic.  Spanking is always the best course of action, sometimes the best course of action, neither better or worse than alternative courses of action, or never acceptable.  It is one of those things now, and will continue to be one of those things after I have children.  My family status is irrelevant to the issue.  Even if your absurd claim that once I have kids of my own I will find the act of spanking them irresistible turns out to be true, that doesn't mean a damn thing, except that I turned out to be a bad parent in that respect.

As arrogant as I am, I would not suggest that the answer to the question of whether kids should be spanked by their parents hingest on what I decide to do with my own kids.

[daywane]

saint...
your oldest is 8?
My wife had 2 children when we met , 1yr old and 2 yrs old. I raised them as my own and still do. I do not care for the word Stepdad. I am there dad
These 2 monsters hated me at first and hated each other. I mean tossing each other out the window type hate . ( i guess there to close to age, I do not know and never under stood it) I would come home from work and the boy would have a fire under the 500 gal propain tank.
They had several spanks before 8
my youngest is 9 never had any problems like the other 2 ( I have stated I have 4 kids. He is the oldest . He is 18 and lives with my first wife. I can not really use him as a example. the most I could do to help him was pay my child support)
I really hope your kids are the exception. just be warned ...Jr high is cumming, High school RUN man RUN!!!

[fredster]

Right Daywane, it just depends on the situation.  I said I wouldn't do it either, but just cutting priviliges wasn't enough, the behavior persisted.

Shmokes, I'm always impressed with how smart you are. That was a #8, a #9a, and #10, rounded with a #12.
(Per this thread - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,32236.0.html)

However, I suggest you should stick to expaining about things you obviously know how to do, like rip off Walmart (as you explained very well in your EA Boycott Thread). Until then, leave child rearing to the people that have children. 

If you actually do manage to have children, you can teach them to rip off other stores too!  Maybe you could show you kid how to boycott as successfully has you have.

And you could start a family business together boycotting and ripping off stores.  That would be nice.

[ChadTower]

Jr high is cumming, High school RUN man RUN!!!

Dude, I spit my drink out when I read that.  That is SO TRUE on SO MANY levels.

[DrewKaree]

LMAO, of course castration and isolation on an island is beyond rational.  Please, for the love of god, believe that I'm kidding about that.  But the never say never bit is absurd.  I think you could, with all kinds of confidence, say that there are a great many things that you would never do to your children.

I get that it's beyond rational, just like your comments regarding spanking a child and the people that feel it necessary.

There's a vast difference between spanking your child and molesting them, you know it, and it's ignorant to compare the two knowing such things.  The most illogical of people can understand the reasoning behind not saying you'll never spank your child.  I have no doubt in my mind that you'll do your best to move heaven and earth NOT to spank your child, if you have one or choose to in the future, but telling us you'll NEVER do it?  Your powers of ESP astound us, and frankly, I wish you'd start using them to divine what fredster is about to say so you can answer his next point before it's brought up.

The problem with relying on logical fallacies, Fred, is that they are so easy to shoot down.  Even when you're right you'll be undone in an argument every time if you support your opinion with faulty logic.  Spanking is always the best course of action, sometimes the best course of action, neither better or worse than alternative courses of action, or never acceptable.  It is one of those things now, and will continue to be one of those things after I have children.  My family status is irrelevant to the issue.  Even if your absurd claim that once I have kids of my own I will find the act of spanking them irresistible turns out to be true, that doesn't mean a damn thing, except that I turned out to be a bad parent in that respect.

Yet somehow you think you haven't done the exact same thing telling us that if you spank your child even once, you are a bad parent. 

As arrogant as I am, I would not suggest that the answer to the question of whether kids should be spanked by their parents hingest on what I decide to do with my own kids.

Yet you ARE arrogant enough to pass judgement on someone as a bad parent for spanking their child. 

Luckily, you live in that nice blue state where if you lose your mind and become a bad parent in the store, people won't look at you twice.  I'm betting living in Utah, you've seen it happen a few times, hey?

[Daniel270]

This is the first (and hopefully only) thread I've dared go into any sort of debate on....


I was one of those children brought up "disciplined" by a belt.  I can honestly say tho that it wasn't abuse, but true discipline.... Each time I got it (which was less than the number of fingers on one hand), I did something bad enough to merit it.   Am I a bad person?  I'd like to think not.  I've never been a bully, I've never robbed anyone, and I can honestly say I'm probably one of the nicest people anyone could get to know in person.

I do totally agree with Saint, tho.  Any form of spanking (not beatings, thrashings or whatever) should be totally a last resort.  There were times I was more "punished" by the wait to get spanked than actually getting it (there was usually an hour wait between being told I was getting one and getting one).

[shmokes]

Shmokes, I'm always impressed with how smart you are. That was a #8, a #9a, and #10, rounded with a #12.
(Per this thread - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,32236.0.html)

However, I suggest you should stick to expaining about things you obviously know how to do, like rip off Walmart (as you explained very well in your EA Boycott Thread).

If you actually do manage to have children, you can teach them to rip off other stores too!

[ChadTower]

The amount of hominemphobia in this thread is disturbing.  Hominemsexuals are people too.

[shmokes]

Hominems should be castrated and put on an island.

[shmokes]

Damn....sorry Drew.  I replied to you too, earlier, but the thread ate my post.  I've got too much homework right now...perhaps tomorrow.

[daywane]

The amount of hominemphobia in this thread is disturbing.

[RetroJames]

The amount of hominemphobia in this thread is disturbing.

[fredster]

Even if I DO make a living ripping off Walmart, and intend to teach the tricks of my trade to my future son, it doesn't say a thing about this issue.

Yeah, you are right Shmokes.  Which thread was it you were discussing how to steal in?  Being a godless heathen, you surely don't have any reservations on it.  After all, you had to make sure you didn't write it.

As far as your logic is concerned, yes, I'm very lost.  It's a whole new level of logic.

[ChadTower]

That is some hardcore logic.  That logic is straight up ill, boy.  It's ill logic.  It's so ill, it deserves a new word... like illogical.

[Santoro]

I have not read pages 2-3 of this thread.

[DrewKaree]

The amount of hominemphobia in this thread is disturbing.  Hominemsexuals are people too.

i have to go look that up. What in the blazes is that. new word for me.
some time it suck to be a red neck.

Now that's funny,  even the spell checker came up blank on those two words

daywane, that is friggen funny!  Can I call you Clueless Joe Jackson?

JUST PULLIN' YER LEG BRUDDA!  DEMS JESS JOKES!

p.s. I told on you to your wife in that other thread....you better run now boah, you gon' git it good! 

[fredster]

And back to topic.

There was a topic here?

[ChadTower]

WTF is a class of Juvi's?

[shmokes]

That is some hardcore logic.  That logic is straight up ill, boy.  It's ill logic.  It's so ill, it deserves a new word... like illogical.

Pretty clever...

[Santoro]

WTF is a class of Juvi's?

Juvenile Delinquents.  That class was in chaos.

[ChadTower]

Ah, see to me, it looked like a hispanic slur, which was weird coming from a Santoro.  That's why I asked. 

[Santoro]

Whoa what slur does that look like, should I edit my post? 

Oh, and I am I-talian.  :-)

[Santoro]

I edited it just to be safe.