Land of the free?

[ChadTower]

Whether or not he had a point, I admire is articulation and writing skills, assuming he wrote this.  I know professional writers who cannot write like this.

[RetroJames]

http://hq.protestwarrior.com/?page=/featured/PHS/PHS.php

Smart kid to be sure, but what was his point?

I though about these two cases last night and came to the realization that they are very much  the same.

In each, one or more kids decided to act out against what they felt were oppressive environments.

In one it was a possibly overbearing and dictatorial teacher, in the other it another teacher who apparently makes her political beliefs known to the class, let's say for the sake of argument she is overbearing in her assertions.

Both groups of students essentially setup the teachers. 

In one, a student refused to stand for the pledge of allegiance knowing this would get a rise out of the teacher.  They also filmed the fun.

In another, the students posted flyers containing content they knew they would most likely get a rise out of their teacher.  They took photos of the fun.

My contention is that each of these has very little to do with issues, i.e. freedom of speech, religion, or oppresive political diatribe.  This has very much to do with the basic human, and especially teenage, desire NOT to be told what to do.   

Teenagers also have a great penchant for being jerky and I would tend to throw both of these groups of students in the same bucket. 

Neither actually addressed thier specific concerns appropriately IMHO.  The students in the pledge video could have (assuming they didn't) talk to the teacher, parents, prinicple, etc).  The students with the flyers might have confronted the alleged "left-leaning" teacher and voiced thier opinion that her opinion was too prevalent in class.

Another similarity is that each were kind of spitting on those who have paid dearly for protesting truly unreasonable opression.

I tend not to believe the guy in the video really has a concrete opinion one way or the other about reciting the pledge, and the kid with the protest warrior flyers was not trying to say something specific with the content of those flyers.  He was just putting them up to cause a stir, and probably impress his friends in school or online.

</$0.02>

[crashwg]

I tend not to believe the guy in the video really has a concrete opinion one way or the other about reciting the pledge, and the kid with the protest warrior flyers was not trying to say something specific with the content of those flyers.  He was just putting them up to cause a stir, and probably impress his friends in school or online.

I am not aware of any laws that state one has to prove their reasons for protest.  The only thing that matters in these cases are constitutional rights.

The student has the RIGHT not to stand for the pledge.
According to the US Suppreme Court, students have the RIGHT to voice their political opinions in school.  [Tinker vs. Des Moines]

And most importantly of all, a teacher has NO RIGHT to pull a chair from under someone!  Anywhere other than a school and nobody would even be questioning it...  Imagine for one second that someone where to pull a chair from bellow a police officer or the president of the United States, I guarantee you that that person would be thrown to the ground, arrested, tried and convicted of assault!  A student of a public highschool has all the same rights as them and should be treated just as respectfully.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Whether or not he had a point, I admire is articulation and writing skills, assuming he wrote this.

The Protest Warriors are a large group of Conservative holligans. It's more than likely this kid didn't write this stuff, nor plan his "operation" without the help of numerous highly skilled, right-wing politicos. It seems to me to be a staged event meant to further the organizations claims about "liberal bias" in school.

I also wonder why you'd claim that the teacher in the video was "set up", since the kids provoked him in order to get it on video, yet you won't bat an eyelash at these Protest Warriors, who've obviously staged an event, and provoked the school in order to get photos and post it all over the web? Would you agree that this seems like a setup as well?

I know professional writers who cannot write like this.

Even some that are in the WH press corp, moonlighting as male escorts!!

mrC

[RetroJames]

Whether or not he had a point, I admire is articulation and writing skills, assuming he wrote this.

The Protest Warriors are a large group of Conservative holligans. It's more than likely this kid didn't write this stuff, nor plan his "operation" without the help of numerous highly skilled, right-wing politicos. It seems to me to be a staged event meant to further the organizations claims about "liberal bias" in school.

I also wonder why you'd claim that the teacher in the video was "set up", since the kids provoked him in order to get it on video, yet you won't bat an eyelash at these Protest Warriors, who've obviously staged an event, and provoked the school in order to get photos and post it all over the web? Would you agree that this seems like a setup as well?

I know professional writers who cannot write like this.

Even some that are in the WH press corp, moonlighting as male escorts!!

mrC

Who me?

[quarterback]

So, did everybody hear the followup?  It wasn't a camera-phone (as was reported), there was also 10-minutes of tape PRIOR to the other tape that shows these kids antagonizing the teacher, there's also extensive video footage of these kids destroying property (christmas decorations etc) in people's yards/on their houses with baseball bats and the day before this incident, the kids saran wrapped another student to his desk/chair. 

[RetroJames]

Corey Zappo is one of two students suspended following the incident. When we interviewed him yesterday he admitted that he brought his videocamera into the class knowing that he and his friends would get a rise out of Mantel.

Corey Zappo, High School Student: "So we just knew he was going to flip out because he frequently did and my friends and I thought it would be kind of funny to catch it."

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/news/wabc_030205_classroomoutburstfollow.html#

[DrewKaree]

I also wonder why you'd claim that the teacher in the video was "set up", since the kids provoked him in order to get it on video, yet you won't bat an eyelash at these Protest Warriors, who've obviously staged an event, and provoked the school in order to get photos and post it all over the web? Would you agree that this seems like a setup as well?

I'm more intrigued that you believe him to not "bat an eyelash", when he's stated both instances were either regretful or wrong on both sides.

I'm also highly intrigued that you're saying Chad is "claiming that the teacher in the video was "set up", since the kids provoked him".  It reads as if you're questioning those "claims", yet you had this to say regarding his comments:

What I am seeing here, though, is a kid who refused to stand in order to provoke the teacher, not to protest with sincerity.  The teacher was wrong, and he got the provoked reaction he wanted, but the kid's actions had no root in nobility either.

The whole situation is unfortunate.  Clearly the incident was staged or they wouldn't have had a way to record it.  Neither side is in the right.

EDIT (On preview): We are 100% in agreement on this. I had imagined there was more to this than what we were seeing, as well.

mrC

He "showed you the light", brutha.  You sound a bit cheesed at that.

Don't worry, soon the brainwashing will kick in and you'll see the light. 

The farce is strong in you, I can feel it. 

I'm sure the line will be long in volunteering to drive it out of you 

[ChadTower]

If that followup is true, then really this is more a case of some punks who need a foot to the ass and a teacher who just hit the line of his ability to restrain himself.  There's a real problem in my community with kids committing crimes and videotaping themselves doing it.  This sounds a lot like that.

Last summer a bunch of kids broke into a Salvation Army holding yard that was full of household goods that were going to the needy and their thrift stores.  They proceeded to demolish half the yard.  While in progress, some off duty Policemen were golfing on the course that happens to abut the storage yard.  The police chased the kids down and arrested them.  Two of the parents then sued the Police for wrongful arrest and persecution.  Alas, the kids had videotaped not only their actions in the storage yard but also a series of vandalisms (including antisemitic graffiti) that had occurred over the preceding week that had been unsolved.  Let's just say the parents dropped their suits quickly.

The followup really makes it sound like these kids are one of those groups.

[Crazy Cooter]

The teacher in the vid was setup I'm sure, but if he can't handle it... why is he a teacher?

IMO, there's no reason a teacher (or any professionsal) to raise their voice at a job.

[ChadTower]

The teacher in the vid was setup I'm sure, but if he can't handle it... why is he a teacher?

That would work in an ideal world where parents do their jobs.  Too many kids, boys especially, just don't get taught basic respect at home.  Crappy fathers, absent fathers, no male figure around to teach them how to become a man.  These are the type of boys who really DO need to be yelled at, slapped around, shown the hard way the consequences of that type of behaviour BEFORE they end up killed or in jail.

Everyone wants to weep about the declining quality of children but it all starts with the people who were supposed to have taught them the things they don't know.

[Dexter]

Point is, you can't expect schools to raise your children for you. Their role is to educate, the burden of disciplining has to ALWAYS lay with the parents in the first instance. Otherwise, how do you define the line between discipline and physical abuse?

This teacher is apparently easily riled, so much so that the students knew they could get a reaction out of him and capture it on video. Would you want an adult with such a short fuse teaching your child?

[ChadTower]

He may not be a short fuse.  He may be constantly pushed near the edge by these particular idiot kids.  A person only has so much temper.  It's not excusable to snatch the chair but the kids definitely deserve much of the blame.

Then again, he could be a short fuse who needs to be fired.

I didn't mean to say that it is the school's job to teach these kids the things their parents are not.  I was pointing out the problem inherent in the fact that these kids are not being raised properly and unfortunately the number of improperly raised children increases with each generation.

[Dexter]

Agree, the parents need to smack them upside the head. A fairly new problem here is that of both parents having to work full time due to the high cost of living and not being able to devote enough time to raising their kids.

[ChadTower]

That's not just there, it's here too.  MOST kids here who have two parents have both parents working.  Alas, I think too many people create that situation themselves.  You don't have to drive a pair of 40k SUVs and have a 2500sqft house, but if you have those things, you'd better have two incomes to pay for it all.

I think the feminism movement really screwed women in this regard.  It used to be before, a woman was expected to stay home and raise the kids.  That was too limiting, so the womens' lib movement got them the ability to go out and get an education and a career.  It didn't tell them, though, that it's not realistically possible to have both at the same time.  There just isn't enough time to raise the kids properly AND be in the workplace with a real career.  Women today seem to think they HAVE to do both and it's just not possible to do them both properly at the same time.  It always seems to be the children that pay the price, too.   I think the solution is probably a combination of more men staying home and women coming to the common sense realization that you can have your career, and you can raise your kids,  but one's primary focus needs to be one or the other, not both.

[quarterback]

The teacher in the vid was setup I'm sure, but if he can't handle it... why is he a teacher?

IMO, there's no reason a teacher (or any professionsal) to raise their voice at a job.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I'm also highly intrigued that you're saying Chad is "claiming that the teacher in the video was "set up", since the kids provoked him".  It reads as if you're questioning those "claims", yet you had this to say regarding his comments:

I *did* agree with Chad's "claim"...but that still means it's just a claim. My agreement w/ Chad doesn't make the claims any more solvent. We didn't know the whole story at the time (although there's been follow up recently).

My response was to Chad praising the Protest Warrior kids literacy, while seemingly ignoring the correlation between their actions and these "anthem kids" actions. Chad often claims to be impartial, or centrist in his beliefs. I don't feel that is a fair self-assessment. As such, since I prefer to argue w/ people on an even playing field, I like to point these things out. It's only fair, I declare my biases, you know where I stand.

If I remember correctly, Drew, you too made the same sort of claims about being an unbiased centrist thinker. Who here, now, would take that at face value? It's fine that you're a conservative, and it's fine that Chad seems to support a conservative agenda as well. However, it just doesn't seem fair to hide behind the claim of being 'fair and balanced' when you've got such an obvious slant to your thinking. (This isn't pot-kettle either, see my sig for self-parody)

I was, and still am, curious as to whether he feels the PW's acted in an appropriate manner, as he has been quick to condemn left-leaning individuals, while letting right-leaners off scott-free. To me it's another demonstration of his potential bias.


mrC

[Dartful Dodger]

I *did* agree with Chad's "claim"...but that still means it's just a claim. My agreement w/ Chad doesn't make the claims any more solvent. We didn't know the whole story at the time (although there's been follow up recently).

We did know the whole story at the time. 

Facts:
kid doesn't stand for the pledge.
Different kid video tapes it.

The whole story was obvious.

If the story was:
The teacher had a hidden camera taping the kid stealing from the teacher's desk.

The whole story to that would be obvious too.
A student was stealing from the teacher, so the teacher set u pa camera to catch him in the act.

Your reaction to this scenario is also obvious.
You would be upset that the teacher wasn't respecting the kid's privacy.

I do not take your posts seriously because you do not seriously think before you post.

[ChadTower]

I don't remember ever saying I was unbiased or centrist.  In fact I remember as recently as yesterday saying specifically that my views fall either left or right depending on the issue.  The only thing I can remember saying that was even close was that I think things through and make what I consider rational assessments. 

[RetroJames]

I was very bored last night and read a few of the PW kid's posts on PW.  He is a real piece of work.  He is well-spoken and articulate, but some of his content leaves a great deal to be desired IMHO.  I am really trying to be charitable here as well.

[daywane]

We got spanked in my schools growing up.

[daywane]

http://hq.protestwarrior.com/?page=/featured/PHS/PHS.php

Hey that kids a terrorist too.

at one point in time or another all kids are 

[daywane]

I love how everone blames the parents. Not to long ago (a few months)
a woman overheard her daughters phone call, she picked up the other line.
The brat was making a drug deal. The mother stopped the phone call. She then called the police. The Mother was arested for invading the teens privacy.

There is many cases like this. (in one form or fashion) My wife is a house wife (has been for 15 years) I like it this way because she keeps a close eye on the kids . We have one child that fells like he can do anything and not be punished
The schools have put this in his head. He has even gone and told teachers he was spanked ( he was not) just because he felt like I should have punished his 3 year old sister over a miner scrap over a joystick.

my point don't be so quick to blame the parents all the time.  Kids can get away with alot now a day's

[RetroJames]

I love how everone blames the parents. Not to long ago (a few months)
a woman overheard her daughters phone call, she picked up the other line.
The brat was making a drug deal. The mother stopped the phone call. She then called the police. The Mother was arested for invading the teens privacy.

Do you have a link or a clipping about that case.  I am very skeptical.

[daywane]

Bill orally fox news
spelling is off but you know who I am talking about

[Crazy Cooter]

I agree parenting has taken a nose dive.  Many parents don't invest the time needed to raise their kids "right".  Part of that is due to lawmakers taking away punishment "tools" like spanking in public etc.  I saw a kid get swatted in a store and most of the people around looked shocked.  I was shocked he didn't get hit earlier.  Sometimes kids need to be taken behind the shed.

Professionals don't yell.  I work with 99% union workers (construction).  It's always been my policy that if you yell, you're gone.  It's against union policy to do that.  Only one person has ever been removed from one of my jobsites.

[quarterback]

[Crazy Cooter]

lol.

You should punish your own kids.  Not somebody elses.  That's why the teacher should have sent the kid to the principal and then the parents could have been contacted.  If the parents can't get it through the kids head on what is/isn't proper behaivior, or a teacher can't get it through his/her head on what they should do, then they need to be removed from the situation.

Expell the kid and/or fire the teacher.  Whatever the situation warrants.

[DrewKaree]

I thought it took a village?

And there's GOT to be sheds all around the village.

I can CLEARLY remember being punished by friends' parents, up to, and including, getting spanked twice for doing stupid kid stuff I KNEW I didn't have any business doing.

I'm one of those parents who ALWAYS gets called first when something happens between my kids and another kid in school, because they KNOW if there's some discipline to be laid down, I'm willing to let the school do what they feel is right, and they know by telling me first that

a)  I'll DO something about what my kids did
b)  They can tell the parent(s) of the other kid that "the parents of the other child have been told of the situation, and agree with the steps we are taking".  It gives the school a little leverage with the other parent, unless the parent could care less.

In only two instances did the other child's parent (notice the lack of an "S" on the end of that word) not agree with the school.  A friendly visit from the father of the other child resulted in a sheepish and apologetic phone call the next day to tell the principal they wished to allow the school to administer the proposed punishment.

Call it what you will, but I agree with Hitlery that it takes a village.  The problem is that our "villagers" have started to isolate themselves from the rest of the village when they couldn't even handle their own hut.

[quarterback]

You should punish your own kids.

[DrewKaree]

I find it a bit suspect that you say you work on a construction site and haven't had to raise your voice to get someone's attention.  You must work on the quiestest construction sites in the world.

[RetroJames]

Bill orally fox news
spelling is off but you know who I am talking about

Now I'm very skeptical...

Any links to the text of the news story would be appreciated.  Thanks

[daywane]

Bill orally fox news
spelling is off but you know who I am talking about

Now I'm very skeptical...

Any links to the text of the news story would be appreciated.

[quarterback]

Bill orally fox news
spelling is off but you know who I am talking about

Now I'm very skeptical...

Any links to the text of the news story would be appreciated.

[daywane]

I have just sent a email to his show and asked for a link.
sent to.
oreilly@foxnews.com

Bill. need a link please. i some people at a web sight not believing me about a show you did.
I don't remember the show well . A mother picked up the phone and listened in on her teenage daughters call.
She (the mother) put a stop to it.
Next thing the mother knew she was in trouble for invasion of privacy of her teen daughter.
would you please inform my doubting friends. I did a search for ( mother teen daughter drugs ) but I did not find the info at your web sight. Thanks
daywane.
PS here is the link to the sight I am talking on.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,32892.0.html

[quarterback]

I have just sent a email to his show and asked for a link.
sent to.
oreilly@foxnews.com

Bill. need a link please. i some people at a web sight not believing me about a show you did.
I don't remember the show well . A mother picked up the phone and listened in on her teenage daughters call.
She (the mother) put a stop to it.
Next thing the mother knew she was in trouble for invasion of privacy of her teen daughter.
would you please inform my doubting friends. I did a search for ( mother teen daughter drugs ) but I did not find the info at your web sight. Thanks
daywane.
PS here is the link to the sight I am talking on.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,32892.0.html

LOL

[RetroJames]

Bill orally fox news
spelling is off but you know who I am talking about

Now I'm very skeptical...

Any links to the text of the news story would be appreciated.

[DrewKaree]

This is the story you're referring to.  I believe you're recalling O'Reilly's example he brought up, which is why you were having a hard time finding it.

www.foxnews.com - The O'Reilly Factor Story

It fits most of the criteria you are speaking of.

I agree mom has a right to listen to her daughter's conversations if she feels the need, but I believe this story is about the police using the information mom gained by listening to the conversations to go after the person her child was hot for.  In essence, they used mom as their "wiretap", instead of getting an actual wiretap for the phone.  THAT, I do not agree with.  Tapping your phone requires a judge's order, I believe, and the police have to demonstrate their case and why they need to do this.  It leads me to believe they couldn't convince a judge to do so, and saw an opportunity.

All of that is irrelevant, though, to mom having the right to listen to conversations on her telephone and to act in her child's best interests.  That story goes beyond that scope.

[quarterback]

EDIT: DK beat me to it!  But I couldn't let all my eloquence merely be tossed into the wind...

daywane, does this sound like what you heard:

O'REILLY: All right, so if I move to Seattle tomorrow and I monitor - - and I pick up the phone and my 14-year-old daughter is on the phone with a heroin dealer, I can't bring that information to the cops, sir?

TARIO: You can bring that information. It depends how you gather it. And...

O'REILLY: I heard it on the phone just the way this woman heard it on the phone. My 14-year-old's arranging a drug deal. I can't go and testify against the drug dealer who agrees to sell her drugs? Come on. That's what this is all about.

The case that's being discussed is NOT a case of a mom being arrested for invading a teen's privacy.

[RetroJames]

I also found this snippet;